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Thread: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

  1. #21
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    For Altissimo, the more fingerings that get the notes the better.

    For some Altissimo notes I have 3 or maybe more different fingerings.

    The only problem with the high F# key Altissimo fingerings for me are that they seem awkward for changing quickly to other Altissimo or normal notes.

    To go from Altissimo F# using the high F# key fingering to Altissimo Ab using the Front F fingering is awkward and it's much easier to go from the Altissimo F# fingering using the Front F fingering to the Altissimo Ab using the Front F fingering.

    The Tenor Altissimo G using the high F# key fingering is not that hard to play but the Tenor Altissimo G using the Front F fingering can give some players problems and it often needs better voicing by the player to play it and the Teenor Altissimo G using the Front F fingering is generally more useful because the fingering bleends in with other Altissimo fingerings pretty well and can therefore be used to play faster Altissimo passages.

  2. #22
    Distinguished SOTW Member saxpiece's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    These Alto Altissimo fingerings have some high F# key fingerings in them.

    http://www.jimromainmusic.com/live/v...d=1&start_dl=1

    http://www.jimromainmusic.com

    These fingerings follow the following conventions of abbreviation, as used by J.M. Londeix in Hello! Mr. Sax:

    X=front F key,

    P=bis Bb,

    palm keys from D through F# labeled C1-C5 in ascending chromatic order,

    Ta=side Bb,

    Tc=side C.

    In addition, 0 indicates an open key for keys 1-6, which are understood to refer to B, A, G, F, E, and D, respectively.

    C5 is the high F# key btw

    G: 100/400 Ta C5
    G#: 123/400 Ta Tc
    A: 023/400 Ta Tc
    A#: 003/400 Ta Tc
    B: 003/400 Ta Tc C1
    C: 003/400 Ta Tc C1 C2
    C#: 003/400 Ta Tc C1 C2 C3
    D: 003/400 Ta Tc C1 C2 C3 C4
    D#: 003/400 Ta Tc C1 C2 C3 C4 C5

    Even though the high F# key fingerings might be a bit awkward in regards to how they flow into other Altissimo fingerings it is possible to use the high F# key Altissimo fingerings for Altissimo passages but the Front F Altissimo fingerings are probably more suited for faster passages.


    For the sequence D-F-E-G, front F (X20/000) and front E (X23/000) may be used instead of palm fingerings, followed by (X00/400 Ta) for front G.

    D#-F#-F-Ab-G may be facilitated by the used of front F# (X20/000 Ta), front F (X20/000), then (X00/000 Ta) for front Ab and (X00/400 Ta) for front G.

    Tenor Altissimo is similar except for the Front F based G which varies from Alto to Tenor ie

    Alto: (X00/000 Ta) or (123/400 Ta Tc ) for Ab and (X00/400 Ta) for G

    Tenor: (123/400 Ta Tc ) for Ab and (X00/000 Ta) for G

  3. #23
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    Wow! Thanks for this Saxpiece & thank you to all that participated.

    I am anxious to try this on my tenor tonight! So far I haven't been able to crack G#3 but G3 is getting more solid by the day and I can now use it somewhat reliably on slow passage

    Wanting many fingerings for the same notes makes a lot of sense.

    Repeatedly reading that use of the high F# key can delay learning proper altissimo motivated this question whether using the key is cheating.

    Again thanks to all that helped clarify this and who suggested altissimo tricks and fingering on the way!

  4. #24
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffT View Post
    Repeatedly reading that use of the high F# key can delay learning proper altissimo motivated this question whether using the key is cheating.
    That's actually an opinion that I've set forth, but I wouldn't go so far as to interpret it as "cheating" when using the high F# key to get other notes. You gotta use what works for you. Thing is, altissimo fingerings are relative, as illustrated by the various fingerings offered by different players for the same notes. What's more important is how you blow. That's why I've always felt that learning how to blow an altissimo F#3 without using the high F# key was an important bridge to learning more difficult notes such as G3 and G#3.

    What I do is use octave, front F, right hand 1 (F) and side Bb for F#3. Then I let go of right hand 1 (F) for G3. From there I'll add side C for G#3. Going from one note right to the next is helpful in nailing them when proceeding to learn them in this manner.

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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    In my experience the F# Key actually helped me in developing altissimo. Remi Alvarez, my teacher www.remialvarez.com taught me to use it if it helped me. In our experience and in his, even the saxophone model has to do, taking into consideration the whole setup.

    Just use what helps you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    That's actually an opinion that I've set forth, but I wouldn't go so far as to interpret it as "cheating" when using the high F# key to get other notes. You gotta use what works for you. Thing is, altissimo fingerings are relative, as illustrated by the various fingerings offered by different players for the same notes. What's more important is how you blow. That's why I've always felt that learning how to blow an altissimo F#3 without using the high F# key was an important bridge to learning more difficult notes such as G3 and G#3.

    What I do is use octave, front F, right hand 1 (F) and side Bb for F#3. Then I let go of right hand 1 (F) for G3. From there I'll add side C for G#3. Going from one note right to the next is helpful in nailing them when proceeding to learn them in this manner.

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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    That's actually an opinion that I've set forth, but I wouldn't go so far as to interpret it as "cheating" when using the high F# key to get other notes. You gotta use what works for you. Thing is, altissimo fingerings are relative, as illustrated by the various fingerings offered by different players for the same notes. What's more important is how you blow. That's why I've always felt that learning how to blow an altissimo F#3 without using the high F# key was an important bridge to learning more difficult notes such as G3 and G#3.

    What I do is use octave, front F, right hand 1 (F) and side Bb for F#3. Then I let go of right hand 1 (F) for G3. From there I'll add side C for G#3. Going from one note right to the next is helpful in nailing them when proceeding to learn them in this manner.
    Now that I am getting on the other side of the wall, that G3 is getting under control (sounded a first G#3 tonight woot!) I see the wisdom and truth of the bolded part. Getting F#3 without using the high F# key was definitively a bridge. Then starting to sound F3 using 110|110 enabled me to play G#.

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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    Good!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffT View Post
    Now that I am getting on the other side of the wall, that G3 is getting under control (sounded a first G#3 tonight woot!) I see the wisdom and truth of the bolded part. Getting F#3 without using the high F# key was definitively a bridge. Then starting to sound F3 using 110|110 enabled me to play G#.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    I don't think it is,but find this one to work better for me and it works well going up to G3. xxo ooo high f# side b. To go G3 just lift your C2 finger.
    Selmer series II Tenor, Runyon Metal Spoiler 11, Ponzol M1 115, Rico Select Jazz 2M.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    Lots of fingerings given here. Are we discussing tenor, alto, or both? I think it can make a difference, to some extent.

    In the OP you mention just front F + side Bb for altissimo G. I'm assuming you are also adding the octave key as well. Correct? I find that fingering (with the octave also) to be pretty effective, but the biggest thing for G3 is how you 'voice' it. You have to back off on the air a bit and get just the right air flow, which you can only find by experimenting.

    I agree with Grumps that altissimo F# (without the F# key) is the doorway to altissimo. The fingering I use that works very well, allowing the note to pop right out on any tenor I've played, is this:

    octave key, XOX/XOO +Eb key

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    So JeffT, did you try the fingering for F# I mentioned in the preceeding post?

    p.s. I just realized this thread is a few months old. Maybe jeffT is no longer around...

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    I use the high F# to get altissimo G and it comes out every time. And I mean every time.

    Of course I learned the conventional way first before I had a horn with high F#.

    Now I use the high F# along with the standard way and Always get a clean and true high G.

    I don't care if it's considered cheating or not I just want to hit it consistently and the high F# guarantees that.

    Sometimes depending on the horn that altissimo G won't come out at all in the heat
    of the moment without the high F# assist.

    There are some horns where it's very difficult to get that G period without the high F#.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL View Post
    So JeffT, did you try the fingering for F# I mentioned in the preceeding post?

    p.s. I just realized this thread is a few months old. Maybe jeffT is no longer around...
    Hi JL and sorry for the late reply!
    Been a busy weeks and I had missed your replied so no I haven't tried your F# fingering yet but I definitively will!

    As for my G3 fingering I do not use the octave key. A fellow SOTW member,SWPerry which has the same sax, suggested dropping the octave key and it sings effortlessly now. As a matter of fact as soon as I dropped it I sounded my first G3!

    What you say about easing out on the airstream is so true! Knowing this when I started to work on G3 would have helped me a lot as I was pushing air way too hard

    Thanks for the suggestions!

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    Hi,

    Finally managed some practise time and I loved this, octave key, XOX/XOO +Eb key fingering!!!! Both the ease of emission and the quality of the tone are outstanding!

    Thank you for suggesting it

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Is using high F# key for altissimo fingerings "cheating"?

    And, if you do not mind, try blowing very little air, and attacking, not attacking, you will manage to master it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffT View Post
    Hi,

    Finally managed some practise time and I loved this, octave key, XOX/XOO +Eb key fingering!!!! Both the ease of emission and the quality of the tone are outstanding!

    Thank you for suggesting it

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