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  1. #61
    Distinguished SOTW Member Kelly Bucheger's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    There are no "bad" MK VI tenors...just poorly set up examples.and players who can't play them.
    I haven't tried enough VI tenors to have a take on this -- been playing mine for almost 40 years -- but I've definitely played some VI altos that were dogs: including some that were very well set up. (As I've said before: in my experience in the VI alto realm, if you got a "good" neck, you'll believe the VI magic...)
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    The MK7 is just a MK6 with bigger key work designed for fred hemke from my understanding. i when i played an alto the key work was bigger than my tenors.

    Selmer will never be what they used to be untilthey redo their quality controll. their current policy is to sell everything that comes out of the factory.

  3. #63
    Distinguished SOTW Member DanPerezSax's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Is a Mark VI generally accepted to be harder to play than a modern horn? I've seen comments to this effect a few times in this thread, but when I pick one up, it blows at least as freely as my Series III, and I might even feel more resonance through my fingertips, which is nice. On tenor, compared to my Martin, I feel like when I pick up a VI, it "just works," as opposed to being forced to get a sound I want and get the action moving cleanly. I've always had really positive experiences playing these, except for one horn which was leaking like a sieve.

    P.S. In response to one comment, when it comes to personality, values and especially GAS, guitarists≈sax players.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    I think a VI takes some getting used to. This is especially the case if you are coming from modern horns. I dont find mine resistant at all. However, they are flexible to the point of being initially hard to play in tune. I recall being all over the map with pitch when I first got mine. I would venture to say that you can get more variance in pitch from a VI without bending the reed (just using your throat) than you can out of any modern horn. So, Id say they are harder in that respect.

    In that respect a remake of the VI would be a tough sell on todays market. You have to keep in mind that they need to sell a lot of horns...many to players that are not accomplished. I can already hear hundreds of band teachers saying, "Go buy a Yamaha".
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  5. #65
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly Bucheger View Post
    I haven't tried enough VI tenors to have a take on this --
    You can trust Thomas.
    He's not here to sell anything...

  6. #66
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmund451 View Post
    I think a VI takes some getting used to. This is especially the case if you are coming from modern horns. However, they are flexible to the point of being initially hard to play in tune. I would venture to say that you can get more variance in pitch from a VI without bending the reed (just using your throat) than you can out of any modern horn.

    In that respect a remake of the VI would be a tough sell on todays market. You have to keep in mind that they need to sell a lot of horns...many to players that are not accomplished. .
    I find this pitch flexibility/sensitivity one of the MK VI tenor's greatest assets. It makes one a better player, great for developing the ear, and a invaluable tool for the improviser. I would add to your take on "many players who are not accomplished" those players who are just plain too lazy to do the work to become accomplished. The first step in being a musician is the mastery of the instrument. Most are too lazy to enjoy that work.
    "there are two means of refuge from the misery of life-music and cats," Dr. Albert Schweitzer

  7. #67
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    I would not begin to argue your point Thomas. I was strictly speaking to why Selmer would not revive these features. Since its available many people want "Plug and Play". Its not a position I advocate, just one I believe drives a great deal of the market.
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanPerezSax View Post
    Is a Mark VI generally accepted to be harder to play than a modern horn?
    I wouldn't say harder to play so much as you won't be able to do anything more with it (than a modern horn), or play it to its full potential until you have put the time in on it. In truth, this can be said for any horn, but it's probably more true for VIs and other vintage horns in general, than for the modern horns. I'm going largely on what I've heard about modern horns being very consistent, in tune, etc.

    It's all a bit of a trade-off, but what Thomas and others are saying about the flexibility in tone and intonation sounds right on to me. I've noticed the same thing with my Bueschers. They can be played in tune easily if you use your ear, but are also very flexible, so you have to use your ear. The bonus comes in being able to use this flexibility well. And there also seems to be a fairly wide 'tonal pallet' with many vintage horns, especially the MKVI.

    Then again, this might all be in my mind, and maybe I don't really know what I'm talking about! But it seems to me to be the case. I did own a Yamaha Custom alto for a few years, and that horn just didn't seem to have the flexibility I'm talking about here. Not compared to a couple of Buescher altos I have owned. Same seemed true of some modern tenors I've tried, but I sure haven't tried them all.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    What do you mean you wont be able to do more with a VI than another horn? Everyone knows you get more chicks with a VI
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  10. #70

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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigmund451 View Post
    What do you mean you wont be able to do more with a VI than another horn? Everyone knows you get more chicks with a VI
    My chick was impressed when I went back to the Mk6 after trying Yamahas, but she called it a Salmer, so I got rid of her.....

  11. #71

    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    I find this pitch flexibility/sensitivity one of the MK VI tenor's greatest assets. It makes one a better player, great for developing the ear, and a invaluable tool for the improviser. I would add to your take on "many players who are not accomplished" those players who are just plain too lazy to do the work to become accomplished. The first step in being a musician is the mastery of the instrument. Most are too lazy to enjoy that work.
    I find the idea of the VI having greater pitch flexibility fascinating. Never considered the possibility of different horns having differing levels of pitch flexibility.

    It would be fantastic if someone could do an A/B recording (on good audio gear naturally) demonstrating this fact.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    I dont have recordings but yes the horn does seem more flexible and its very sensitive. Once you know the horn it doesnt feel that way but (as I mentioned) when you come from a modern horn where the intonation feels more locked in the difference is much like going from driving a chevy sedan to a tight, high performance vehicle. At first it feels hypersensitive and it wants to get away from you. Eventually everything gels and becomes second nature. Im not knocking modern horns but this is the best analogy I can think of at the moment.
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  13. #73

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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr G View Post
    But why? Tooling for an old design is no more expensive that tooling for any other design. Material? Not an issue. There are no more parts, nor more complex parts, for a VI than anything else on the market. Must be a matter of insufficient market demand.
    I think your right about the tooling, but in the case of the NVS (for example) they can get it close, but it really needs a moment of detail work to get it where it should be as a finished product. But they woun't do that because it takes too much time and it effects there bottom line $$$$$, plus they know that 85% of the players that buy them probably won't really care anyway. This is what I think! I'm no expert on manufactuing, but you know it ALWAYS comes down to the profit.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to play a "known good Mk VI" so I only get to read about how awesome they are on the internet =(
    If someone in the Tampa Bay area has one and wouldn't mind letting me try it let me know =D
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  15. #75
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hr7star View Post
    I find the idea of the VI having greater pitch flexibility fascinating. Never considered the possibility of different horns having differing levels of pitch flexibility.

    It would be fantastic if someone could do an A/B recording (on good audio gear naturally) demonstrating this fact.
    I'm not sure how that would be possible. There is no such thing as a saxophone without pitch flexibility (I hope), though if some have more than others the difference cannot be large enough to demonstrate in a recording. I think.

    I don't buy all the talk of MKVIs being harder to play, any horn can seem harder to play after getting used to something else, and you can get used to playing any horn. It may be more difficult for people who have only ever played on saxophone for a long time, but adaptability is something that can be acquired quite easily IMO, much of it is psychological.

    This same question could be asked of an SBA, which seem to cost twice as much as a MKVI, so if the idea was a good one commercially, they would be better off making an SBA reissue as it wouldn't cost any more but would possibly sell for double. But Selmer probably won't do this either.

  16. #76
    Distinguished SOTW Member rleitch's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by buddy lee View Post
    Unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to play a "known good Mk VI" so I only get to read about how awesome they are on the internet =(
    If someone in the Tampa Bay area has one and wouldn't mind letting me try it let me know =D
    Same here!

    I have to say though, the first time I had a chance to sit down in a room with a professional player and really hear one played up close, it blew my mind!

    Of course, I've also heard less skilled players sound...like themselves...on them!
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  17. #77
    Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009 warp x's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Can anyone explain to me why it is that modern horns are 'slotting' and vintage horns are 'flexible"? What's the science behind all that? In other words, how do you achieve various degrees of slotting or flexibility in manufacturing?

  18. #78

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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by rleitch View Post
    Same here!

    I have to say though, the first time I had a chance to sit down in a room with a professional player and really hear one played up close, it blew my mind!
    My guess is that pro would've sounded pretty much the same on a Yamaha 23...

    That being said, I'm never giving up my MkVI, unless my friend in Maine wants to give up his SBA. That particular horn just spoke to me better. Much better. But I'm willing to bet it was just that particular horn.

  19. #79
    Forum Contributor 2014 Pete Thomas's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    Quote Originally Posted by warp x View Post
    Can anyone explain to me why it is that modern horns are 'slotting' and vintage horns are 'flexible"? What's the science behind all that? In other words, how do you achieve various degrees of slotting or flexibility in manufacturing?
    I would also like to know the answer to this. I can see how a mouthpiece can be less flexible (small tip opening and/or longer lay), but not a saxophone. Take any one note, say a G. When you are playing that one note it's basically a fixed length conical tube with a few turbulences caused by the toneholes and/or tenon joint. Flexibility of that G is created by the player using jaw or mouth cavity.

    So presumably the saxophone is built to react more or less to those parameters. It can only be in the size or conicality of the bore, or something to do with the turbulences of the toneholes or tenon. ???

    Quote Originally Posted by scargo View Post
    But I'm willing to bet it was just that particular horn.
    Me too.

  20. #80
    Distinguished SOTW Member Captain Beeflat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

    I drive both modern and vintage sports cars...I also play modern and vintage saxophones.
    All are good, but different, & I adore the differences.
    There is no "best", simply best for the occasion.
    Experience is an excellent school....but the fees are high.

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