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The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

183K views 873 replies 156 participants last post by  CashSax 
#1 ·
Everyone talks about that "thing" a good Mark VI has that Selmer has been unable to capture since they stopped making them.

A few questions:

1. Why did they stop making them? What did Selmer think people would gain from the Mark VII that they didn't get with the VI?

2. Now that these horns are so revered, sought after, etc, why hasn't Selmer brought them back? I understand the Ref 54 is supposed to fill that void, but most opinions I read on it aren't nearly as glowing as they are for a real Mark VI. Is it wrong to assume that they would still have the tooling or casts (whatever) and whatever specs necessary to make them again? If so, why wouldn't they?
 
#2 ·
Over time the tooling wears out and has to be replaced. The Mark VI was the longest production run in the company's history and, from what I understand, the tooling was simply worn out. When they re-tooled with the Mark VII, they tried to improve it. It just didn't work out the way they had hoped.

Reproducing the Mark VI is pretty much impossible, I think. There are so many factors that go into how the instrument plays and every single one of those would have to be exactly the same as the old ones, from the alloy content of the brass to the way they were hand-finished to the tooling even down to the formula for the lacquer, which I believe could not be reproduced today due to EPA restrictions.

This is why Mark VIs are so valuable today. They simply cannot be reproduced. There is also something to be said for knowing that you are playing an original vintage Mark VI. It probably does something to the player mentally that makes the horn seem even better.
 
#7 ·
They simply cannot be reproduced.
Beg to differ. Nothing is so elusive in horn manufacture that they could not replicate if they want to - including (especially) the metal.

Selmer does not choose to make an exact replica of the Mk VI.
 
#3 ·
They could do any number of reissues, but why? Marketing? Saxophone manufacture has moved on since then.

The MKVi is a great horn for its time and for many people has not been surpassed. But for many others it has and i think Selmer know this. Don't think they haven't discussed the possibility of bringing it out again. People won't want it, they'll still want the best serial numbers.
 
#51 ·
Don't think they haven't discussed the possibility of bringing it out again. People won't want it, they'll still want the best serial numbers.
Pete, I believe you've got it right. This thread could have ended right there, with the quote above.

Even if Selmer put out a new MKVI that was truly an exact copy of a 5-digit VI from the late '50s, it wouldn't sell any better than their other horns. Probably worse because, as Martinmods points out, most would pick it up, play it, and not appreciate what they have. In fact, if it really is an exact copy, it probably wouldn't play as easy as the newer horns.

Also, those who want a real MKVI would turn up their nose at the new ones. They'd still want the authentic, original, vintage horns.

I really like my VI tenor and haven't played a better horn yet, although my 'series one' Buescher Aristocrat comes very close and in some ways (tone maybe) it might be better. But I bet there are plenty other horns I'd like as well. It's all very subjective. I do think there is something special, a depth to the tone or something about the VI; maybe that's just in my mind, but it's there.

The thing is, so many jazz icons played a VI, and that will keep the myth and hype alive for years to come. But only for the original VI, not for any copy no matter how perfect, and Selmer knows that.
 
#5 ·
I seen the Ref 54 and 36 in much the same light as the new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro vs. their 60's counterparts... different animals entirely, but designed to capture the essence and spirit of the original. Some may argue that the new ones are far superior because they have all of the technical wizardry worked out, and others will embrace the nuances (warts and all) of the original and for that there's no equivalent.
 
#8 ·
This is inexplicable to me too. All the stuff about worn tooling, alloy percentages, lacquer formula, etc. won't fly IMHO. Blueprints don't get worn out. New tooling could be made exactly like the old tooling. Any second year engineering student could go in a lab and tell you exactly what is in the brass. Lacquer formulas and application processes are easily duplicated. Nothing technological prevents Selmer from making a real, authentic Mark VI today. Nothing. They know absolutely everything about how they used to make that horn, and if they wanted to, they could make them today just as they did back in the day.

I think it would be a fantastic thing for Selmer to reintroduce the Mark VI. Not an "in the spirit of" horn, but the horn itself. They already have no problem manufacturing and marketing several different high end horns at the same time. Why not add a REAL Mark VI to their stable of offerings?

Of course I know that there would immediately arise a die hard group who would claim the new horn was manufactured when Jupiter wasn't properly aligned with Mars or something and didn't sound as good as a vintage model. But everybody else would know they have a real Mark VI to consider when choosing a new horn from among all the great modern offerings, and the artificial prices of old rotten horns would drop immediately.
 
#13 ·
I wonder why they haven't done it?
Because they don't want to make backward step? A good series II is way beyond a good MKVI, in my opinion, and in Selmer's opinion (I'm sure) all their modern horns are better so what would be the point in trying to sell a modern recreation to a vintage oriented market? Well Fender have tried it.
 
#15 ·
Because they don't want to make backward step? A good series II is way beyond a good MKVI, in my opinion, and in Selmer's opinion (I'm sure) all their modern horns are better so what would be the point in trying to sell a modern recreation to a vintage oriented market? Well Fender have tried it.
You're probably right that Selmer thinks they're making better horns now, whether that's true or not I guess is a matter of conjecture.
 
#12 ·
I think that the workers who made so much of these horns by hand are all gone now and they can't reproduce the horn. Selmer doesn't get it. The ref series horns are expensive, but nowhere near as good as the old horns were. I have only played 1 bad mark VI, where I have only played 1 good reference series horn, go figure!
 
#19 ·
The same person who would buy a Ref 54 I'm guessing?
I doubt it. The Ref 54 is not a MKVI, it's avery different horn with different action. Maybe some people bought a ref 54 buying into the hype that it's a MKVI reissue, but I think most people buy it for the horn it is. In some respects it's better than a MKVI, in other respects it's not.
 
#23 ·
One fact that's almost always overlooked in these discussions is that the MKVI, both alto and tenor, were constantly changed over the period of production. Anyone who's looked carefully at and played early and late MKVI's knows that. So, which MKVI would they remake?

No, as has been said, the main reasons that Selmer doesn't remake a MKVI (from any vintage) is that they genuinely believe that their modern horns are better, and very few people would buy it........ 'they're not as good as the original ones' people would say.
 
#24 ·
There is the basic artistic snob factor to consider. I don't mean that to be insulting. Once something is identified as the best, especially after it is no longer made, there isn't going to be any equal substitute. The preference for certain Mark VI serial number ranges supports this. Selmer CAN produce an exact replica of the most sought-after models of the VI, and it would be just that to the VI elitist community: a replica. The sought-after runs from yesteryear would always be preferred by them, and reason and logic would be irrelevant. Believe me, Selmer (and other) companies know exactly what their market is and what they are doing. They know an exact remake of the VI would not sell as well as what they are currently producing. If they thought it would, they'd have done it.
 
#29 ·
No. In essence the target market (Pros) would be too small to warrant production. Selmer would be foolish to target the amateur market with something that required intelligent mouthpiece selection and the development of a higher skill level before one could appreciate the tonal sophistication being offered.
 
#30 ·
Further to the points already made, to some extent people cherish the inconsistencies and foibles in Mark VI's. But if Selmer were to introduce a 'new' horn now, even a new Mark VI, with such inconsistencies they would be slated (accepting there are still inconsistencies from one Selmer horn to the next). It is the designing out of such 'problems' which has arguably led to the Mark VI 'thing' being lost.

Also, to re-introduce the Mark VI would be to admit that every horn Selmer has subsequently made is in some way inferior, which they will not do.

This also raises another question; where do Selmer go next? They have the Series II and Series III. They also have a nod to the past with the Ref 54 and the Ref 36. So what's left for them to do next?
 
#35 ·
well I don't know how much manufacturing techniques have changed, but another factor could just be cost and/or time. It could be that if there was higher quality control and/or more handmade input to the final product (or that overheads and minimal wages were lower), that these techniques are no longer financially viable. There are many products out there where the manufacturing quality today just doesn't seem to match up to yesteryear.

Apart from that it doesn't seem very good marketing strategy to abandon all the technical advances made in the intervening years to recreate an original VI - apart from anything else, if the hype is to be believed there are any number of upcoming companies who have done just this!
 
#36 ·
Strikes me that when the mark vi was made, there cheaper available materials and labour was substantially cheaper, there was more demand (bigger Market) for horns..
I have a feeling it wouldn't be cost effective for this to happen, or if they did make a "real" Mark vi again, that it would be so exorbitantly expensive, that Inderbinden might look a cost effective alternative..
Basically times change, what's happened has happened.. It can't be redone...
Think about mini Moog, the reissue is great, but the Market fell away, and it's not the same as original..(although I think it's tremendous fun!) Whoosh!!!
 
#38 ·
I have a feeling it wouldn't be cost effective for this to happen, or if they did make a "real" Mark vi again, that it would be so exorbitantly expensive, that Inderbinden might look a cost effective alternative..
I can't see why it would cost any more than a Series III

Pete mentioned Fender's retro models - both they and Gibson are happy to pander to the '59 Les Paul/'57 Strat syndrome by producing re-issues, of course at inflated price - even down to reproducing the cigarette burns from famous players. There are plenty of takers, as e-Bay proves.
I doubt many pros buy them, but there are many amateurs with shedloads of cash (in fact probably more than there are professionals with shedloads) who do.
Hehe, I was an amateur with shedloads of cash. I bought one. (62 reissue Strat)

It cost £850. I Sold it two years later for £600.
 
#37 ·
Pete mentioned Fender's retro models - both they and Gibson are happy to pander to the '59 Les Paul/'57 Strat syndrome by producing re-issues, of course at inflated price - even down to reproducing the cigarette burns from famous players. There are plenty of takers, as e-Bay proves.

I doubt many pros buy them, but there are many amateurs with shedloads of cash (in fact probably more than there are professionals with shedloads) who do.

One would have thought Selmer could turn in a tidy profit from a limited run custom shop - with the prices Mk VIs are fetching, they could undercut the used market and still make a return. I can't believe there aren't people out there who would pay for a genuine new Selmer re-issue. Not many other manufacturers of anything have a design ikon in their stable.
 
#39 ·
Pete mentioned Fender's retro models - both they and Gibson are happy to pander to the '59 Les Paul/'57 Strat syndrome by producing re-issues, of course at inflated price - even down to reproducing the cigarette burns from famous players. There are plenty of takers, as e-Bay proves.

I doubt many pros buy them, but there are many amateurs with shedloads of cash (in fact probably more than there are professionals with shedloads) who do.

One would have thought Selmer could turn in a tidy profit from a limited run custom shop - with the prices Mk VIs are fetching, they could undercut the used market and still make a return. I can't believe there aren't people out there who would pay for a genuine new Selmer re-issue. Not many other manufacturers of anything have a design ikon in their stable.
Agree fully.
 
#40 ·
Once in while this topic is discussed again and again... There's so much going on BEYOND the VI-horn itself... And usually the thread got populated with the same comments. From the same SOTWers. Which gets the same readers... So, guess what, I'll probably say the same I did in others thread, ... what else :)

Apparently, bottomoline is, that being not rocket science to make an exact replica, and that EVERY Pro horn nowadays is supposedly Vintageyounameit, VI-like, blabla (which is marketed after the Mark VI), but that's actually not true, right? As Lance said, it's a horn with some "characteristic" sound, easy to play, and intended more for the general public wanting some "special", but not for the true professional seeking expressiveness, dept of tone, etc ...

Apparently #2, there are just a few pros out there that'll really appreciate (or "need") a Mk VI like horn... and it's not significant market share, there's not profit there, ... enough real VIs out there for that guys/gals, will be fooling the rest with horn VI-like that are nice horn, they won't notice, they'll be happy, we know...

And I forgot about #3... but well, to me is like if they could they would.

There's a lot of nonsense in this. Why every horn is marketed after a GREAT Mark VI? Because, it's well proven over the years, a GREAT Mark VI has a lot of characteristics that is difficult to part with, and when it comes to real musicians it's all about the sound.

If it is really easy, or is the same, doing a horn like a Mark VI or like a Ref 54, P. Mauriat, Cannonball, etc... Why not just do that? To me, the weekend warrior, the snob yuppie supposed target of the newer vintage like horn, he won't notice anything, and they will be targeting the players who want a REAL VI-like horn too ... (they can make a special edition for the first group, with a Naked Coltrane engraving, and a case made of Pandas skin, something fancy... or whatever... and a simple, plain unengraved, no mpc... one for the second group.

Another thing, so... if that first group is buying the fake VI like horns, and the second group is just 3 or 4 guys, who's selling/buying all the VIs ¿? ... collectors? Example, I mean, if you look on ebay you'll find more VIs than Series II, III, Ref... But Selmer knows better. Their newer horns sells for less than the VIs, and actually those listings/auctions are not moving like the VIs on ebay...

Mark VIs and their quirks... Ok, just in case it needs to be clarified, I tend to think that not at single company will copy a BAD Mark VI, right?

Mark VI no longer exists, that's the reason it's overpriced, and VI-people will always like 'that' particular serial number, etc... Well, there are a LOT of horns that aren't produced today... They're just not sough after like the VI, I don't see horns marketed after the Buescher TT... if there's just a minority that wants VIs replica... how many would want TTs replicas?

I can't think of something else right now... enough, coffee is ready. :)

DanPerez and some other guys, maybe we should create a Club thread... something like "I'll definitely buy a REAL replica of a great VI for 1k, I don't care how it looks, no mpc for me, no neckstrap"
 
#43 ·
Even if they were able to reproduce - Mark VIs was handcrafted and must be produce in a same way to sound like that. So I think a Mark VI would cost ca. 15.000 Euros or more ... Beside that - they are not able to reproduce the old Selmers - not Selmer, not Yamaha or P. Mauriat. They would do that I'm sure, but they can't.
 
#46 ·
The reason why they don't make the VI or SBA anymore is very simple. Pride. Those in charge today are too proud to admit that they have yet to come out with a superior horn. The new horns that are made today, IMO, are unplayable until modified (octave pips bored out, altissimo F# plugged or patched, bell soldered, etc...).

Those in charge at Selmer (or The person in charge), wants their legacy to be considered an improvement of the old designs. I do like some of the items from the new horns, however there is another issue. The "ref" horns were based on preferences for French classical saxophonists. This is why these horns feel so restrictive in comparison to a VI or SBA. Bottom line, if you get a Series III, or Ref and send it to someone like Randy Jones who will do the setup and pimp these out, then you will have a fantastic horn. Would I trade my VI for one of those, no. But I woul be very happy to have one just the same.

I personally think they could reverse engineer a few players horns (copy John Coltrane's SBA and Breckers VI down to the silver neck) and sell them as straight up copies (like they do with guitars now). You could even simulate the lacquer wear these days...

I would go out of my way to get one of those and put it in a glass case and just look at it. Maybe when those 3D copies get cheaper I can have one made in plastic (un-playable of course).

K, enough daydreaming.
 
#53 ·
Believe it or not....I was told by one of the "heavy-weight" players that they actually have recreated a horn that plays just as good as a Mark VI. But that they won't release it because that they couldn't justify putting it out because of the saxophone market the way it is today.
I believe they can reproduce any horn/mouthpiece they wanted to, it is just the PROFIT that keeps them from doing it!
I mean look at the release of the NVS Otto Link. I bought one and it played pretty good, but i got it refaced and it plays GREAT!
The big boys won't put any precision work out if it messes with their bottom line!!
 
#55 ·
Believe it or not....I was told by one of the "heavy-weight" players that they actually have recreated a horn that plays just as good as a Mark VI. But that they won't release it because that they couldn't justify putting it out because of the saxophone market the way it is today.
But why? Tooling for an old design is no more expensive that tooling for any other design. Material? Not an issue. There are no more parts, nor more complex parts, for a VI than anything else on the market. Must be a matter of insufficient market demand.
 
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