The Mark VI "thing": Why can't they get it back?

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 06:22 PM

Everyone talks about that "thing" a good Mark VI has that Selmer has been unable to capture since they stopped making them.

A few questions:

1. Why did they stop making them? What did Selmer think people would gain from the Mark VII that they didn't get with the VI?

2. Now that these horns are so revered, sought after, etc, why hasn't Selmer brought them back? I understand the Ref 54 is supposed to fill that void, but most opinions I read on it aren't nearly as glowing as they are for a real Mark VI. Is it wrong to assume that they would still have the tooling or casts (whatever) and whatever specs necessary to make them again? If so, why wouldn't they?

**ekdowlin** · 12-06-2010, 06:37 PM

Over time the tooling wears out and has to be replaced. The Mark VI was the longest production run in the company's history and, from what I understand, the tooling was simply worn out. When they re-tooled with the Mark VII, they tried to improve it. It just didn't work out the way they had hoped.

Reproducing the Mark VI is pretty much impossible, I think. There are so many factors that go into how the instrument plays and every single one of those would have to be exactly the same as the old ones, from the alloy content of the brass to the way they were hand-finished to the tooling even down to the formula for the lacquer, which I believe could not be reproduced today due to EPA restrictions.

This is why Mark VIs are so valuable today. They simply cannot be reproduced. There is also something to be said for knowing that you are playing an original vintage Mark VI. It probably does something to the player mentally that makes the horn seem even better.

**Pete Thomas** · 12-06-2010, 06:43 PM

They could do any number of reissues, but why? Marketing? Saxophone manufacture has moved on since then.

The MKVi is a great horn for its time and for many people has not been surpassed. But for many others it has and i think Selmer know this. Don't think they haven't discussed the possibility of bringing it out again. People won't want it, they'll still want the best serial numbers.

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 06:48 PM

Was the Ref 54 supposed to be a Mark VI copy essentially? Or were there "improvements" made to it?

**SactoPete** · 12-06-2010, 06:52 PM

I seen the Ref 54 and 36 in much the same light as the new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro vs. their 60's counterparts... different animals entirely, but designed to capture the essence and spirit of the original. Some may argue that the new ones are far superior because they have all of the technical wizardry worked out, and others will embrace the nuances (warts and all) of the original and for that there's no equivalent.

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by SactoPete

I seen the Ref 54 and 36 in much the same light as the new Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro vs. their 60's counterparts... different animals entirely, but designed to capture the essence and spirit of the original. Some may argue that the new ones are far superior because they have all of the technical wizardry worked out, and others will embrace the nuances (warts and all) of the original and for that there's no equivalent.

Good way of looking at it, thanks.

**Dr G** · 12-06-2010, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by ekdowlin

They simply cannot be reproduced.

Beg to differ. Nothing is so elusive in horn manufacture that they could not replicate if they want to - including (especially) the metal.

Selmer does not choose to make an exact replica of the Mk VI.

**Bill Bryant** · 12-06-2010, 07:02 PM

This is inexplicable to me too. All the stuff about worn tooling, alloy percentages, lacquer formula, etc. won't fly IMHO. Blueprints don't get worn out. New tooling could be made exactly like the old tooling. Any second year engineering student could go in a lab and tell you exactly what is in the brass. Lacquer formulas and application processes are easily duplicated. Nothing technological prevents Selmer from making a real, authentic Mark VI today. Nothing. They know absolutely everything about how they used to make that horn, and if they wanted to, they could make them today just as they did back in the day.

I think it would be a fantastic thing for Selmer to reintroduce the Mark VI. Not an "in the spirit of" horn, but the horn itself. They already have no problem manufacturing and marketing several different high end horns at the same time. Why not add a REAL Mark VI to their stable of offerings?

Of course I know that there would immediately arise a die hard group who would claim the new horn was manufactured when Jupiter wasn't properly aligned with Mars or something and didn't sound as good as a vintage model. But everybody else would know they have a real Mark VI to consider when choosing a new horn from among all the great modern offerings, and the artificial prices of old rotten horns would drop immediately.

**Pete Thomas** · 12-06-2010, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Bryant

and the artificial prices of old rotten horns would drop immediately.

Amen. And we could then forget about the whole MKVI thing and get on with making music on the saxophone.

As long as it has the right serial number

**A Greene** · 12-06-2010, 07:27 PM

I'm VI-o-holic but the Mark VI isn't perfect. I've seen some really nice features on newer horns that would greatly improve my VI if added. I think the P. Mariaut tenor is really getting close to a VI thing.

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bill Bryant

This is inexplicable to me too. All the stuff about worn tooling, alloy percentages, lacquer formula, etc. won't fly IMHO. Blueprints don't get worn out. New tooling could be made exactly like the old tooling. Any second year engineering student could go in a lab and tell you exactly what is in the brass. Lacquer formulas and application processes are easily duplicated. Nothing technological prevents Selmer from making a real, authentic Mark VI today. Nothing. They know absolutely everything about how they used to make that horn, and if they wanted to, they could make them today just as they did back in the day.

I think it would be a fantastic thing for Selmer to reintroduce the Mark VI. Not an "in the spirit of" horn, but the horn itself. They already have no problem manufacturing and marketing several different high end horns at the same time. Why not add a REAL Mark VI to their stable of offerings?

Of course I know that there would immediately arise a die hard group who would claim the new horn was manufactured when Jupiter wasn't properly aligned with Mars or something and didn't sound as good as a vintage model. But everybody else would know they have a real Mark VI to consider when choosing a new horn from among all the great modern offerings, and the artificial prices of old rotten horns would drop immediately.

See this is what I thought... they made the horn for 20 years, you'd think they got pretty good at doing it and had schematics/records/formulas for making them locked up somewhere. I wonder why they haven't done it?

**William Bua** · 12-06-2010, 07:34 PM

I think that the workers who made so much of these horns by hand are all gone now and they can't reproduce the horn. Selmer doesn't get it. The ref series horns are expensive, but nowhere near as good as the old horns were. I have only played 1 bad mark VI, where I have only played 1 good reference series horn, go figure!

**Pete Thomas** · 12-06-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by buddy lee

I wonder why they haven't done it?

Because they don't want to make backward step? A good series II is way beyond a good MKVI, in my opinion, and in Selmer's opinion (I'm sure) all their modern horns are better so what would be the point in trying to sell a modern recreation to a vintage oriented market? Well Fender have tried it.

**Dr G** · 12-06-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by A Greene

I'm VI-o-holic but the Mark VI isn't perfect. I've seen some really nice features on newer horns that would greatly improve my VI if added. I think the P. Mariaut tenor is really getting close to a VI thing.

You mean reinventing the inherent imperfections of the Mk VI? Who'd want that?

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Thomas

Because they don't want to make backward step? A good series II is way beyond a good MKVI, in my opinion, and in Selmer's opinion (I'm sure) all their modern horns are better so what would be the point in trying to sell a modern recreation to a vintage oriented market? Well Fender have tried it.

You're probably right that Selmer thinks they're making better horns now, whether that's true or not I guess is a matter of conjecture.

**skeller047** · 12-06-2010, 08:25 PM

There's one question that nobody has asked, but I'm pretty sure that Selmer has asked and answered: "Who would buy it?"

I guarantee you that if the answer resulted in more $$$ coming Selmer's way, there would be a new old horn available for sale right now.

**buddy lee** · 12-06-2010, 08:29 PM

(whoopsy)

**Pete Thomas** · 12-06-2010, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by skeller047

but I'm pretty sure that Selmer has asked and answered: "Who would buy it?"

Not many people. (Didn't I already say that?)

**Pete Thomas** · 12-06-2010, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by buddy lee

The same person who would buy a Ref 54 I'm guessing?

I doubt it. The Ref 54 is not a MKVI, it's avery different horn with different action. Maybe some people bought a ref 54 buying into the hype that it's a MKVI reissue, but I think most people buy it for the horn it is. In some respects it's better than a MKVI, in other respects it's not.