Between Idolatry and Joy

[Pete Thomas]

Although I agree post #1 appeared to be begging for a theological discussion specific to one faith, which i believe is not appropriate on this forum, there is some good discussion on this topic if it could be taken out of that context. As Ian Stewart said "For instance when does an obsession with football become more important than your family", and I think a discussion about whether one's work/art starts to get in the way of what many would think should be a priority such as family would be a useful topic. But it should be in the Lounge so that it becomes not a religious discussion and does not exclude non Christians.

[eugeneherman]

Yes, quite right Pete. As we can see by Boppity Funk's comment, raising the specter of a particular religious group's precepts in a thread posting leads to this type of puerile proselytizing!

[Stormhorn]

I feel the OP 'did' post a religious, non inclusive question that should be sanctioned by the moderators of this forum. -Eugene ... BTW OP, Your question was to clarify a point relating to Christian theology no? Not proper here!

Hmmm...okay, in initiating this thread, I think I may have been guilty of presumption here regarding the readership of the "Sacred Sax" category and the kind of discussions that are appropriate to it. If that's the case, then I apologize to all of you and will take my lumps. Whoever is moderating, kindly freeze this thread or just plain eliminate it.

[Pete Thomas]

Hmmm...okay, in initiating this thread, I think I may have been guilty of presumption here regarding the readership of the "Sacred Sax" category and the kind of discussions that are appropriate to it.

The readership is everyone who has an interest in sacred sax (or even unsacred sax!). No specific religion.

I can't answer for the current moderators, but I doubt it's changed much since I was a mod.

The point of this forum is to discuss music that is sacred. Discussions about religion and/or theology are a no no. (I think the guidelines are set out at the top of the forum)

As I said earlier, it's a good topic if you take it into a wider context, and I would encourage that.

But to have the topic closed, you need to actually ask admin, not just post a request here, they won't necessarily see it for quite a while. It's a big forum and admin/mods can't follow every single conversation.

Either click on the contact button at the bottom of the page , or (better IMO) just click on a the report post button for your original post and mention it there, an admin will then see it very quickly.

Hope that helps

[Ian Stewart]

Post erased.

[Honeyboy]

How can someone separate their religious beliefs in an area called Sacred Sax if their belief system is tied into their involvement with sacred sax. Are only secular or atheistic opinions allowed? It seems there's alot of hypocrisy going on here.

[Pete Thomas]

How can someone separate their religious beliefs in an area called Sacred Sax if their belief system is tied into their involvement with sacred sax.

Good question

Are only secular or atheistic opinions allowed?

Of course not, nobody ever said that. Or did they?

It seems there's alot of hypocrisy going on here.

I haven't seen that, but if that is alluding to anything I said, please please be up front about it, or contact me via PM. If it wasn't me, then I apologise but I haven't seen any hypocrisy here.

[Tenor Man]

From my understanding, this subforum was created so that topics related to using the saxophone in worship could be discussed, as opposed to limiting it to say, only those posts asking if someone has the sheet music for a spiritual song.

My first thought is if you are offended by religious topics than don't enter this subforum. No one's forcing you to look at it.

But the fact that many of you who appear to be non-Christians are looking at--and that you seem to be offended by what appears to me to be an innocuous post about the sax in the context of worship--begs the question if you have an agenda or harbor any animosity toward the Christian faith.

Once again, if the subject that has been set aside for this subforum makes you uneasy then just don't look at it. It's a really simple solution.

Lastly, why is it that a lot of non-Christians always put it upon Christians every time they bring up their faith that they have to also mention every other faith and how those faiths tie into the discussion or somehow they're being exclusionary and unfair? I do not see this same kind of demand from non-Christians to include Christianity when someone wants to discuss Islam, for example.

My position on this is if someone who is clearly a Christian starts a thread on the sax in the context of the Christian faith, then have the decency to stay out of it if you don't have anything constructive to add to that discussion, and that won't undermine, belittle or otherwise try to water down the faith of the Original Poster.

Anyway, that is all I have to say. But as someone who just came across this thread a day or so in it is refreshing to see that it has been allowed to remain open despite the efforts of some whose motivations are unclear albeit somewhat suspicious to have it shut down.

This is Sacred Sax, and it's absurd to suggest that no discussions about worshipping with the saxophone will arise within it outside of someone asking if anyone has the sheet music for O Holy Night.

[Honeyboy]

Good question


Of course not, nobody ever said that. Or did they?


I haven't seen that, but if that is alluding to anything I said, please please be up front about it, or contact me via PM. If it wasn't me, then I apologise but I haven't seen any hypocrisy here.

Pete, please don't take what I said as an attack against you.
What I'm trying to say is, if a reader is a Christian as in the OP, he is approaching the Sacred Sax section from his particular religious viewpoint. As other posters commented, this "problem " can apply in a broader sense as well. Someone quoted a Moslem earlier and Boppity Funk used a line with what sounds like King James language even though he didn't say where he got it from. I don't really know myself, but one poster seems to feel it's from the bible. There was no criticism of the moslem comment, the comment from the atheist poster (atheism is his belief system- he believes in no God), but if someone posts anything about the Christian faith as it relates to the question , it immediately gets ripped and sooner or later the mods come to everyone's rescue and shut down the thread. I've seen some threads in the past where the mods seemed to allow all kinds of sarcastic anti -Christian, anti worship music comments and the thread won't get shut down until a Christian voices their opinion. That's what I call hypocrisy.Especially in an area called Sacred music. Some people actually look at church music as worshipping God, not just another gig to make $150.00 for a few services. I say, either let the Christian say what he feels, or get rid of the section called Sacred Sax. I don't think a topic called Sacred Sax should be controlled by non- believers. Some people with nothing to add to a discussion regarding Sacred Sax music always come around and start complaining that a Christian is trying to get him to convert, which, along with his or someone elses complaint to the mods, will shut down a thread. If they don't like hearing about religious issues as they relate to Sacred Sax, then they should go back to the mouthpiece section where they will feel unthreatened.
This hypocrisy is rampant in our society today. Just as an example, a Moslem can make a big deal and get to wear their headgear- an integral part of her religious beliefs, even if it can threaten security in an airport for identity purposes, or demand and get a set aside area during work hours, but a Christian can't have a prayer meeting with his fellow Christians before work or have a Bible on their desk. The cards are definitely stacked against the Christian, and this website is no different.
Just one man's opinion, of course.

[Tenor Man]

Pete, please don't take what I said as an attack against you.
What I'm trying to say is, if a reader is a Christian as in the OP, he is approaching the Sacred Sax section from his particular religious viewpoint. As other posters commented, this "problem " can apply in a broader sense as well. Someone quoted a Moslem earlier and Boppity Funk used a line with what sounds like King James language even though he didn't say where he got it from. I don't really know muself, but one poster seems to feel it's from the bible. There was no criticism of the moslem comment, the comment from the atheist poster (atheism is his belief system- he believes in no God), but if someone posts anything about the Christian faith as it relates to the question , it immediately gets ripped and sooner or later the mods come to everyone's rescue and shut down the thread. I've seen some threads in the past where the mods seemed to allow all kinds of sarcastic anti -Christian, anti worship music comments and the thread won't get shut down until a Christian voices their opinion. That's what I call hypocrisy.Especially in an area called Sacred music. Some people actually look at church music as worshipping God, not just another gig to make $150.00 for a few services. I say, either let the Christian say what he feels, or get rid of the section called Sacred Sax. I don't think a topic called Sacred Sax should be controlled by non- believers. Some people with nothing to add to a discussion regarding Sacred Sax music always come around and start complaining that a Christian is trying to get him to convert, which, along with his or someone elses complaint to the mods, will shut down a thread. If they don't like hearing about religious issues, then they should go back to the mouthpiece section.

+1000

[Pete Thomas]

if someone posts anything about the Christian faith as it relates to the question , it immediately gets ripped

Very sad that this happens

Some people actually look at church music as worshipping God,

Count me in on that one please!

EDIT: don't worry, I didn't take it as an attack against me. I think I was more concerned about talk of "hypocrisy" in an earlier post, and although I didn't feel targeted, I just got a feeling this thread was going somewhere that is not within the ethos of SOTW, that's all.

2nd EDIT: having reread it, I see that the charge of hypocrisy is aimed at the moderators. Having been a moderator, I can wholeheartedly suggest it's better to discuss any such allegations with them in private. Just my opinion.

Having said that, the only people who should control this section are not "non believers" but the admin of the site.

[Buck Laughlin]

How can someone separate their religious beliefs in an area called Sacred Sax if their belief system is tied into their involvement with sacred sax. Are only secular or atheistic opinions allowed? It seems there's alot of hypocrisy going on here.

Many people's belief systems (including myself) are tied to our involvement in everything we do in life, not just in our involvement in a particular genre of music. And yet we are able to discuss those other areas of our life, including the playing of other musical genres, without discussing the nuances of our particular faith. I don't see any hypocrisy going on here. I do find it odd, though, that the forum includes a subsection called "Sacred Sax" and yet also prohibits any religious discussion. It seems like problems like the ones emerging in this thread are bound to crop up under these circumstances.

[Pete Thomas]

I don't see any hypocrisy going on here. I do find it odd, though, that the forum includes a subsection called "Sacred Sax" and yet also prohibits any religious discussion. It seems like problems like the ones emerging in this thread are bound to crop up under these circumstances.

Not necessarily.

I think that if the forum admin have decided to not allow discussion of religion (or politics), that's fine. They, or rather Harri, owns the site. It's his site not ours.

But sacred music is (probably) indisputably a musical genre, so why not discuss the genre. Yes, as sacred music it can obviously have a spiritual element, and I think it shouldn't be a problem to discuss that element in the music. But we need to know where to draw the line re: the forum rules. So what if I'm a christian? I don't go around discussing it on this site as it is very obviously not in the rules, plus my faith is something very private to me.

[Enviroguy]

Whatever consumes your time, energy, thoughts or your money may become your god. Lots of excellent points given above. I might add that G.A.S. or even obsessing about equipment can be a major distraction from what's really important- God, family, people, etc.

What? G.A.S as a hindrance to faith???

I've always considered G.A.S. as a true special gift from above bestowed solely on the faithful and that is to be enjoyed freely.

[eugeneherman]

I provided some comments because the OP did not start a thread about music per se, but the thread is about 'idolatry' as pertains to music and 'other' non-music, i.e. the tenet of Christianity and 'some' other religions not all. So the thread is a question of a 'Christian' tenet and not strictly a musical concern but a theological one!... Thus me making a comment here... And this 'if you don't like it don't read it' attitude is the type of 'offended' position that these sacred cowboys take when they feel threatened! Folks, it was a theological question posed by OP not a musical one!

[Flâneur]

Tenor man, your quote below is assuming people went into the Sacred Sax sub-forum to see it. I didn't find it there. I found it by clicking the "What's New?" link. Anything new seems to funnel into it. No hidden agenda. If you're concerned about people's hidden agenda maybe you want to ask the mods not to let posts from the Sacred Sax sub-forum to update into the "What's New?" link. A big problem occurs when religion enters the picture because there are folks who have had issues with religion. No news there. Assumptions about the very touchy subject of "personal belief" cross all categories. Alot of folks got heated up on the thread about someone choosing to not listen to Coltrane anymore and being relieved. Thicker skin would be helpful.

"But the fact that many of you who appear to be non-Christians are looking at--and that you seem to be offended by what appears to me to be an innocuous post about the sax in the context of worship--begs the question if you have an agenda or harbor any animosity toward the Christian faith."

[Ian Stewart]

Eugeneherman, idolatry is also forbidden in other religions such as Judaisim, Islam and Buddhism, yet someone asks a serious question, and you get offended because it is also a Christian tenet. No doubt if a girl sax player had concerns about being a feminist, and being ask to wear a revealing outfit on stage, you would also be offended because it is not a feminist forum either.

For information I am not a "sacred cowboy", if you want to ask for advice on the difficulty of an atheist having to earn their living with a gospel group, I am sure you get a lot of support on this forum. I am not going to hide my faith as if it is something to be embarrassed about just to placate people like yourself. As my Scottish aunt used to say "some folks are awfy easy hurt!". You have soured a thread that I am sure is relevant to many players.

[Ian Stewart]

"So what if I'm a christian? I don't go around discussing it on this site as it is very obviously not in the rules, plus my faith is something very private to me."

I feel exactly the same Pete but we are both British, so that is more in keeping with our culture. I believe the OP was very much in line with his American culture, which I admire but I cannot be that open myself. What's more I am half Scottish which makes me even more inhibited.

[eugeneherman]

Ian, I did not get offended, I was questioning the OP's intent and raising some issues, the offended have been sounding off here. BTW this is an open forum no? If I 'soured' the thread for 'you'. Well! Seems like you have the thin skin! And also, to the point of my initial comments... I certainly don't need your lecture on dynamics of cross faith commonalities. I happen to have made a cursory study and have my own opinions!

[SAXISMYAXE]

From my understanding, this subforum was created so that topics related to using the saxophone in worship could be discussed.

First, be careful what you post so this thread will not get closed. Please keep this within the bounds of music. And avoid anything that would put down others that don't believe as you do. There are other forums where we can discuss the specifics of faith in more depth.

Spot on correct. The policy of "no politics & no religion" extends itself to the Sacred Sax section as well. No religious debates, stump sermons, soap boxes, or recitations allowed. Just music and saxophones dialogues.

I'm closing this thread down as the conversation has drifted quite deep into rules breaching territory.