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Is this a Keilwerth "King III"?

6K views 13 replies 7 participants last post by  Helen 
#1 ·
Hey all
I have recently bought a sax and would like to hear some opinions if this horn is a Keilwerth or not. It's a tenor sax in silver with engraved "Spezialmodell HUG 1" The neck has a microtuner, it lacks the front high F key, it has rolled toneholes, serial no. is 123xx and all keywork is on the left side. It does not have the "JG Best in the world" engraved.
The seller explained to me that Keilwerth made saxophones without engravings for Hug music shop in Zürich during 1930-40. Acording to him it's a King Modell 3 from 1938. Here's some pics. Musical instrument Reed instrument Reed Brass instrument Wind instrument
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Automotive tire Tire Wheel Tread Automotive lighting
Thanks in advance!
 
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#8 ·
Looks very Keilwerth to me.
Like a new king IV.
Is there any made in mark or other markings on it rather than the engraving?
actually the left hand plateau isn't and that makes me thing that it isn't a Keilwerth. It could easily be an Amati Toneking or a Kohlert.

From saxpics

".....Series IIIa: In 1956, an interesting horn shows up: the V. Kohlert & Sons model with a label on the back, that reads, "JGK: The Best in the World" and "Made in Czechoslovakia". It's an odd horn because it doesn't look like any other New King model. The reason for this is because I don't really believe it's a Keilwerth, but an Amati horn. Take a look at the below article regarding the Amati Toneking and my notes on the Kohlert page...."
FWIW, I mainly post on my forum and come over here when I'm doing research on something specific and/or I'm doing what I'm doing right now: trying to upload pics and stuff to my new pic gallery and I noted in my list of things to upload that I should check this thread. However, if someone asks for me to comment on something, I definitely will. Just PM me or e-mail thesaxinfo-at-gmail.com. If I don't respond, I probably either forgot about your e-mail or didn't get it.

It only took 1 year, 6 months for me to respond, this time. That's an improvement over 5 years, right?

I've had a lot more Keilwerth data given to me from Helen @ bassic-sax.info. It helps that she can read German, so she can get a lot more info a lot easier than I can about Germanic manufacturers. Anyhow, the biggest Keilwerth thing is probably Helen's info on the Amati Tonekings and the second biggest is her straightening out the mess that was Dörfler & Jörka. We've also got 250ish JK horns between Helen's, my new galleries, and what I had on saxpics.com, so we can do lots of comparing.

Remember that Amati Tonekings used Keilwerth serial numbers. That part hasn't changed. So, 123xx (1938) wouldn't fit for an Amati horn because Amati didn't exist. If you're going for Kohlert, you have to go post WWII, or you're talking about a horn from 1902 -- and the Hug obviously looks newer than that. Kohlert serial numbers have been proven quite stable and they do tend to follow my chart, so you're looking at horns from 1954. The Hug doesn't look like a 1954 Kohlert.

... And Musik Hug AG is and was a Keilwerth dealer :)

Anyhow, there were lot and lots and lots of Keilwerth models and stencils. Then you have Max Keilwerth, Kohlert, Dorfler & Jorka and lots of others that look quite similar. It's really easy to get them all confused. Hey, I found out today that Dörfler & Jörka did "make" some baritone saxophones, but the parts were supplied by a different company. But the serial numbers will immediately tell you, "Not a Keilwerth."

Oh. It's been awhile since I've mentioned this. Please note that I haven't owned saxpics.com for years and I can't make changes to that website. If you have any questions about anything on my websites or saxophones in general, g'head and ask me. I still have archives of saxpics.com from when I owned it. I also have several neglected blogs and the aforementioned newish picture gallery.

EDIT: Sorry. I should make this clear: I've done a lot of streamlining of how to identify JK horns, especially after I was able to determine that the "Modell" numbers (sometimes in Roman numerals, sometimes in standard) on older JKs referred to finish and/or keywork. That's more for me to keep a more organized picture gallery than anything else. If you go on Helen's website, she gets more into the King/New King/Toneking breakdown and their respective Special an Exclusiv(e) models.
 
#6 ·
actually the left hand plateau isn’t and that makes me thing that it isn’t a Keilwerth. It could easily be an Amati Toneking or a Kohlert.

From saxpics

“.....Series IIIa: In 1956, an interesting horn shows up: the V. Kohlert & Sons model with a label on the back, that reads, "JGK: The Best in the World" and "Made in Czechoslovakia". It's an odd horn because it doesn't look like any other New King model. The reason for this is because I don't really believe it's a Keilwerth, but an Amati horn. Take a look at the below article regarding the Amati Toneking and my notes on the Kohlert page...."
 
#9 ·
I definitely think that OP’s horn ia a Dörfler and Jörka made horn. Very similar to Schenkelaars “ own” ( there are all sorts of stencils made by many brands under this Dutch brandname and some entirely or partly made by themselves) design and different from proper Keilwerths.
 
#10 ·
I definitely think that OP's horn ia a Dörfler and Jörka made horn. Very similar to Schenkelaars " own" ( there are all sorts of stencils made by many brands under this Dutch brandname and some entirely or partly made by themselves) design and different from proper Keilwerths.
That I can say with 100% certainty it is not. Look at my D&J pages to see what they looked like, and you will quickly see why it is not one. They are very easy to ID when you know what you are looking for.

I also have a huge gallery full of all the D&J-made stencil names I have come across to date. I would love to be able to add another name to the mix, but this horn was simply not made by D&J.
 
#11 ·
We, it is identical to many Schenkelaars that I find over here and I have always thought they were made by D&J or at the very least with parts made by them ( they also sold Keilwerth made saxophones currently I have a Keilwerth Toneking made for Schenkelars)

By this time they were no longer making saxophones themselves in the NL and bought them.

I have had several of D&J and yes, only few details look like those but other don't.

Like the pinky table. This is from Schenkelaars and identical to OP's.

 
#14 ·
I encourage you to read my D&J page. It thoroughly outlines the history of the company and how they came to produce their own saxophones.

There is a difference between the work Josef Dörfler did for JK and the horns he produced under the Dörfler & Jörka name in partnership with financier Hubert Jörka. In the mid 60s JK took over D&J:

Due to declining business, Hubert Jörka retired on December 31, 1965. At that time J. Keilwerth took over the production machinery and some half-finished products. The only exceptions to this were the instruments in progress and other materials that were in stock that Dörfler still could sell to someone else.
It is possible that some of this latter stock was sold to Schenkelaars.

So a quick summary would like this:

JD works for JK in Graslitz
JD works for JK in Nauheim making and attaching keys to JK body tubes
JD forms D&J together with HJ due to declining orders from JK
JK sues D&J on the grounds that the tenor saxophones produced by D&J were JK copies
JK loses in court, but in an effort to keep a good relationship with JK, changes their saxophone designs anyways
Declining business brought about the retirement of HJ, at which time JK took over the production equipment and some 1/2 finished products
JD closed in business officially on January 31, 1968, and began working for JK again

I would like to add that my research is all cited, and referenced. Any suppositions or wild speculations on my part anywhere on my website, are clearly labelled as such. Hope this clarifies any confusion.
 
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