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Are you thinking about guide tones when improv'ing?

12K views 55 replies 35 participants last post by  Dog Pants 
#1 ·
so. there are tunes that are familiar (played many times and know the notes/changes) and tunes that are new (lead sheet given just recently or at the moment).

are "guide tones" in your mind, as a transition target from chord to chord, for both these scenarios?

in other words, are you thinking about how to get to the guide tones with a phrase? always? seldom?
 
#33 ·
If you tink of improvisation in the context of a story (beginning, midlle, climax, maybe a short resolution) and then you listen to Louis Armstrong, then you kinda get it, why people would think of these. Not so much chord by chord sometimes, but, listen to the way the greats like Hawkins and Armstrong and Young, Hodges, etc... they told their stories in what may seem to be a very methodical manner. Louis might play a first chorus focusing in and around on the 1, then the next on the 3, then on the 5 and bring it home. He was so poignant that way. Many of us tend to get a little "happy" with the notes and arpeggios and extensions and substitutions and whatnot. (Oh, I am DEFINITELY pointing the finger at myself). But coming back to that storyline, or developing that story line requires attention and some restraint. It's easy to hear Bird burn into something and go "yeah, I'm gonna burn it up like that" only to run out of gas 6 beats into the solo. Frankly, he had a lot more in his tank than any of us. Knowing that the chords are an extension of the song and the guidetones are a linear extension of that, really can help focus one into soloing as an extension of the song.

I think there are some players here who may not "think" of guidetones , but rather in ideas, but, I think their ears and ideas ae developed in a way that they are still using the geometry without having to pay direct attention to it, it just becomes a natural part of the process and shape. It's like asking soem painters if they think about triangles when they paint a tree. Probably not, if you are an impressionist or a realist, but you may if you are a cubist or modernist. But, we all understand that a many trees can resemble triangles.

Its a valuable part of learning about melody and harmony so it is worth a serious look for improv.
 
#34 ·
Right on swamp-baby. When I solve a long-*** MIT graduate student math formula I dont have to spend any energy on the "2x2" element of X=69+square root of your mama+(2x2).
But when I was 7 I did. I practiced my multiplication tables then, so now it is almost intuitive. The multiplication tables are a means to an end, not an end in and of themselves. Chord scales are a means to an end, as are guide tones. I would say "chord connections" or resoltions may even be a tad more important than guide tonesin reflecting a change in harmony (after all, only one guide tone moves or resolves between functional II-V's, one is usually a common tone).
 
#35 ·
GTL's should only need to be "thought of" for a period of time, then you can focus your thoughts elsewhere. For most standards, there are only actually a few GTL's (just speaking of the typical 3/7 GTL) that once you internalize you'll have the essence of the progressions in you ears. All 2-5-1 progressions have the same GTL, different notes sure, but the same pattern of descending half step motion. A GTL by itself won't help you make 100% coherent lines because you still need to consider the tune's melody, contour, phrasing, etc. GTL's are, to me, target notes but remember the other chord tones besides the 3's and the 7's. They are probably the strogest, but not the only ones.

I try to take melodic cells from the melody and, in practice, do some permutations in phrasing, note values, melodic contour, etc. and build my lines from the melody as much as I can. To me, how else can someone tell if I'm playing How High the Moon or Ornithology if they didn't hear the melody.... "Good evening folks, now we'll play Rhythm changes in D..." HUH!?

I'm with Kelly and Neff where I pick landmarks where I want to take my line and focus on strong resolutions at those points, and then try to actually stick somewhere near my plan..:) I do my best not to noodle around aimlessly.
 
#36 ·
GTL's should only need to be "thought of" for a period of time, then you can focus your thoughts elsewhere. For most standards, there are only actually a few GTL's (just speaking of the typical 3/7 GTL) that once you internalize you'll have the essence of the progressions in you ears. All 2-5-1 progressions have the same GTL, different notes sure, but the same pattern of descending half step motion. A GTL by itself won't help you make 100% coherent lines because you still need to consider the tune's melody, contour, phrasing, etc. GTL's are, to me, target notes but remember the other chord tones besides the 3's and the 7's. They are probably the strogest, but not the only ones.

I try to take melodic cells from the melody and, in practice, do some permutations in phrasing, note values, melodic contour, etc. and build my lines from the melody as much as I can. To me, how else can someone tell if I'm playing How High the Moon or Ornithology if they didn't hear the melody.... "Good evening folks, now we'll play Rhythm changes in D..." HUH!?

I'm with Kelly and Neff where I pick landmarks where I want to take my line and focus on strong resolutions at those points, and then try to actually stick somewhere near my plan..:) I do my best not to noodle around aimlessly.
Said so well!
 
#52 ·
Modes are more complex and take much more rote practice and ear training than chords. They simply make a player sound more schooled. That gives the player a thorough professionalism, and gives jazz teaching a status, so it's now the standard method.

Thats just the point. I dont think about that at all, when I did (as a young man) I couldn't play because I was missing the musical point. I did not intimate that all you do is play chord tones,much more than that actually. But the diatonic-scale-of-the-moment is not where its at. When you play at II-V-I in C, [ D-7 to G7 to C ] if you are thinking scaler then you simply play "notes of D dorian, notes of G mixolydin, and notes of C ionian", right? Well, those are all the same dang notes silly, so how do reflect the change or differences of the chords linearly as you go along? If you are thinking about those pitches as all being equal because they are "in the scale" you might play "correct notes" and nothing terribly dissonant or offensive, but you most likely are not going to be playing and suggesting good functional harmony in your lines (unless you're playing a lick from somewhere). The note B is each of those scales mentioned above but has completely different sounds and functions on each of the chords it could be played over.
Remember, the chords are what is happening in the music, you can justify anything as long it suggests the functionality of the movement of the chords in the key or as it moves to a new one.
How to do this of course cannot be explained in 2 prargraphs or less, which is why playing jazz (well) is so hard, and why good music teachers are worth the money. If it could be explained easily and universally, then someone would have written a book "How To Proficiently Improvise Jazz" years ago and be rich today.

It's like golf ... if it was easy, it wouldn't be any fun!
 
#54 ·
when i played guitar (before i picked up this time-gobbler horn), i DID think in modes. but, i think, it was different for guitar since the "mode" is so easily visualized as a finger pattern, with chord tones always in the same place in the pattern, regardless of key. it becomes something one can do instantly with practice, so 2 chords/bar is not a big deal (especially since the patterns can overlay each other). of course, this was not a strict rule, and I could also think in terms of the key's "mode" and find the "chord tones" per chord.
it wasn't that hard to learn on guitar. i have noticed that, since i can't see my fingers on the sax, and visualize a "pattern", my mind puts things together differently.
but then, to JL's point, i never played bop on guitar.
 
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