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Thread: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

  1. #1

    Default www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Hello friends,

    Could anyone help me? I'm from Tokyo, Japan.

    I ordered a Leblanc alto clarinet from music-oldtimer.com on internet in Sep. 2009.
    http://www.music-oldtimer.com/en/ins...-leblanc-paris
    Paid $1165 via bank transfer and what I received on Oct. 21 was... a very musty Leblanc
    alto and completely different from the pics.

    From Oct. 22, I had contacted them some times that they sent me a wrong horn
    so exchange to a right one or full-refund. But they wrote me that the horn was right
    and if I don't like it, just return it for refund.
    They wrote me Return Merchandise Authorization (RMA) number on Oct. 25,
    Spent few days to pack it, I returned it on Oct. 30 and they received it on Nov. 3.
    They wrote me on Nov. 6 that I missed the 5 day return deadline and
    send money to re-send the wrong horn. What's a silly!

    They have their return policy:
    http://www.music-oldtimer.com/en/order-info
    They say,
    "We guarantee all our items to be as described and 100% customer satisfaction guaranteed."
    But the item was so far from as described and... customer satisfaction? what is that?

    I had written them several times for full refund includes all the shipping cost
    but only they sent me was a "REMINDER to send money" on Nov 21.

    Could anyone tell me if they are a reliable dealer and... what I can do?

    Thanks,
    Takashi

  2. #2

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Takashi,

    This company has recently changed its name from K.G. Global Inc to Music-Oldtimer Inc. in a filing entered by their accountant Glenn Rosenberg 6 days after they received a judgment of approximately $3000 against them in Philadelphia small claims court. I was forced to take them to court only after exhausting all other avenues available to me, including the BBB complaint system, the FL Division of Consumer Services, FL Atty General's office, even the FBI's Internet Fraud Dept. Almost a full year after making the original purchase of a bassoon from them, and returning it as agreed, they attempted to send it back to me when I requested a waiver of shipping on a replacement because the original was far worse than described. They are now not only refusing to pay the judgment against them, but are going as far as to change their name in an attempt to EVADE THEIR LIABILITIES, which is a serious crime. Please do yourself a favor, and stay VERY far away from this business. I should have done so myself when I heard they don't accept credit cards or Paypal, despite their business being almost exclusively sustained through online purchases. That way when they have your money you have no recourse but to take them to court when they refuse to refund your money even when you follow their policies to the letter. Buyers BEWARE.

    Here are some more complaints posted on the Internet by others who had more or less the same problem as you and me:

    http://www.amazon.com/tag/music%20in...ype=tagsDetail

    http://www.ripoffreport.com/music-sh...etze-24b5d.htm

    http://www.ciao.de/Erfahrungsbericht...r_com__8471526
    (sorry, this last one's in German)

    Don't be next!!!!

  3. #3

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Takashi,
    Since Music-Oldtimer already has your money and they're also selling the instrument you paid for, the easiest thing you can get (besides paying for shipping the same instrument) is a credit towards another purchase. I'm working pretty hard to get my money back, and I live in the U.S. Because you live in Japan, I can only assume it's going to be harder. If you know somebody in a government commerce agency, maybe they could help you, but otherwise I'm not sure what you can do.

    And by the way, I lived in Gunma-ken from 2006 to 2008 and really enjoyed Japan.

  4. #4
    Forum Contributor 2011 TMadness1013's Avatar
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    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    VERY interesting stuff. I took a hit from these punks recently. I sold a sax on eBay to them (under K.G. Global Inc) - the saxophone was in great condition for a 1917 horn. Upon arrival the buyer contacted me and said that it was unacceptable and had some sloppy solder work (which, from all the pics I took of the horn & my memory, it did not) & said that the neck did not match horn. Clearly, it was not an aftermarket neck. He claimed the neck was silver & the body was nickel...dead wrong. The neck was original. But rather than argue, I just sucked it up & gave him a substantial refund because he cited 30+ years as a repair tech & I wanted to be done with it.

    Unbelievable the way they are screwing people left & right. I hope they go down in flames!

  5. #5
    Distinguished Colorful Mouthpiece Designer Stan's Avatar
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    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Yes, it is not your case obviously, but sometime it can really happens, belive me... I am thinking to post here my experience with a USA dealer soon. I am just waiting his answer to better understand what happend.

    All the best,

    Stan
    - R&C R1 Jazz Curved sop - Mark VI, Grafton, Super 20 1 & 2s full pearls, silver BA, satin silver Conn 6M, Martin Handcraft 3s, Buescher TH&C alto - Conn New wonder Silver & Gold, Mark VI Tenor

  6. #6

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    I'm filing criminal charges on behalf of Takashi in Florida so anything you can give me on your case would help.

  7. #7

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Hi to all,

    Thanks... I didn't find your replies for a while.
    Happy to know it's not my case.
    I contacted Barry to solve the problem.

    Mordisquitos,
    It's almost the same story... sounds hard even though you're living in the U.S.
    But do you think they will send me another decent horn as substitute?

    TMadness1013,
    We, horn players, know well the difference between sliver and nickel.
    They look and touch completely different and we'll win even the blind test, right?

    Stan,
    How was your case?

    Let's keep in touch guys and see you soon,

    Takashi
    Last edited by Takashi; 06-09-2010 at 09:25 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Takashi,
    As you already know, they can be stubborn at Music-Oldtimer. If you pay the shipping cost as he originally asked, he may send another horn. But I'm not optimistic enough to think that he'll actually be that generous. Plus, what's to stop him from taking your payment of shipment costs then making up a problem so that he gets to keep more of your money. Like I said, I'm not optimistic.

  9. #9

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Music old timer

  10. #10

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Anybody who has problems should consider working with the better business bureau. www.bbb.org

    At the very least, filing a complaint may reflect in their rating, alerting other buyers of issues. At this point their rating is A- and does not reflect the fact that there are issues.

    http://www.bbb.org/south-east-florid...le-fl-92012179

  11. #11
    Distinguished SOTW Member
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    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Dang, that LeBlanc paperclip looks so tempting!
    Yamaha TS62 - Warburton LA; P. Mauriat 66R - Sakshama FL; Legeres
    Vito (Beaugnier) Baritone/HR Berg 105/1/M
    Buffet Greenline Clarinet; Yamaha 221-II Bass Clarinet

  12. #12
    Distinguished SOTW Member.
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    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Takashi,

    If you feel you have a legitimate complaint, Start here.http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/...4!OpenDocument



    Contact this vendor and inform them you are about to start the process and will be reporting your progress on a saxophone website read by a large number of players and enthusiasts. This may help to get them moving your way. Always be absolutely factual in your reports and do not editorialize or disparage the vendor.

    Essentially they can delay this process, but they may not want the hassle. Next time don't buy where you don't have recourse, i.e. always use Paypal, Major Credit Card.

  13. #13

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    I almost bought from them recently. I'm glad I didn't! Spike is right. Let them know that everyone knows their fraud.
    "By seven o'clock the orchestra has arrived---no thin five piece affair but a pit full of oboes and trombones and saxophones and viols and cornets and piccolos and low and high drums." - F. Scott Fitzgerald ; The Great Gatsby

  14. #14

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Hi Guys, recently I brought instrument from Music-oldtimer. Unfortunately the instrument had some delay on delivery a bit worry, I went on this website and read some of you guys problem. For a moment of losing trust I did think in the negative way, But the truth is turn out finally. I got my instrument I ask for and I did some search to find out what is going on. Finally, It was entirely Postal fault. Music old timer is real they did every thing I ask for, after moment of mistrust I did damage they reputation tremendously by posting negative comment about them. But the truth is still the truth in the end. I did write to the shop for apologize. To be fare to Music old timer I need to share my case in this forum to fix my wrong saying.

  15. #15

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    I know this is an older thread but this guy at Old-Timer Music\KG Global\EBay ID Piano-Sound bought a Sax from me (1947 Conn 6M Lady-Face) for $850 and sent me this:I have received your Conn 6M alto, thanks for doing an excellent job packaging. However I'm very disappointed about the condition of the Horn. I am in the repair business 30+ years and I did not expect a perfect horn, but playing the alto sax for about 40 years I wasn't able to play this one as is. many keys don't work at all ! this Instrument needs repair and a full overhaul to put in playable condition. The horn really looks great, which is because it had been re-lacquered at one time. very easy to make out by lifting a pad from the cup. I can only assume there must be some sort of mix-up on your end. I would keep this alto for a very reasonable partial refund or otherwise would rather take advantage of your 7 day money back policy and return it to you for fully refund. whatever you feel more comfortable with is fine with me. Look forward to hear from you.

    Max's Woodwinds
    He asked for $250 back so I told him to feel free to ship it back. Numerous emails about me being "up to something", the horn being unplayable (which I played before a shipped it to make sure it was right) and how little I know compared to him. Bottom line: He never shipped it back, and is selling it for $1600 on his website. Block him on Ebay if you are selling anything, unless you want the headaches. His Ebay feedback is private so you have no way to know whats up and who he's screwed because negative feedback is not allowed for sellers anymore? So he's all positive, but I'd guess, based on what I read here that he's getting some very salty comments along with those positives. Guys like this are all over the internet and forums like this are the only way to get them out into the light of day for everyone to see. Good work you guys!

  16. #16

    Default Re: www.Music-Oldtimer.com

    Yeah, it's an old thread but it's definitely still relevant apparently. I guess I never did follow up about what happened to me. It took a long while, but I got my money back. And it didn't come easy either. I had to have the money directly withdrawn from his account through the court system. I knew I only had one shot before Max caught wind of what was going on so I had a friend make a fake order to make sure I had an active account with money actually in it. Finally after my lawyer (lucky a volunteer lawyer for the arts) withdrew the money from Max's account, Max wrote a scathing, lying personal attack on ripoff report. So even though we didn't think it was possible, Max from Music Oldtimer is an even worse person than we had originally thought.

    I'm glad you called his bluff and didn't give him $250 that he didn't deserve. This is one of his tactics. No one should fall for it. He may have a lot of experience fixing instruments, but he also has a lot of experience as a scammer. And it's hard for someone dealing with him for the first time to know which experience he's leveraging in the situation. Congrats!

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