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Instruments make a difference or not?

4K views 32 replies 10 participants last post by  guesswork 
#1 ·
I've been palying sax for about three and a half years now, and and last year I decided it was time to get up into at least the lower parts of the altisimo range. Well I worked for a little while, about a week or so, and I could play up to B natural. So now I'm playing on a Yamaha YAS-23 Alto and can't seem to even get to G3, or even an F# thats in tune.... What I had been playing on was a Yanagisawa T-992 Tenor, so is changing from Tenor to Alto the reason I can't seem to play in Altisimo anymore, or is it just the sheer fall in quality of instrument I'm playing do it, or both?
 
#3 ·
That is a very distinct possibility. I got the alto four years ago, before I even started band, and never had it leak checked or anything, since I changed instantaniously to Tenor.


Oh, and sometimes the reed just sticks to the top of the mouthpiece, like, I'm blowing but it isn't vibrating, the force of the air is just laying it flat up against the mouthpiece. /: Never had that problem on any Tenor I've played.
 
#4 ·
Some saxophone designs DO allow altissimo to a lesser or greater degree in terms of effort expended, as do mouthpieces. The best altissimo fingerings to utilize vary from make/model as well.

However I've never played a sax make/model that one experienced in achieving altissimo could not coax into playing in the higher register.

It takes time to master, regardless of your horn.
 
#7 ·
you are going to need to try different fingerings as mentioned.
also, alto to tenor require different fingerings. They also require different tongue positions.
Basically, if you are a beginner at altissimo, stick to either alto or tenor.
 
#13 ·
Instruments make a difference, and...

First, yes, instruments do make a difference, even of the same manufacturer and some times, the same model.

Selmer is my experience, so I can tell about. Series II is the best of them all. I have all the Alto models Selmer produces (except Series III which I did not like, but it is a great horn) and Series II is a better horn for altissimo (I have two of them and they response identically) than the Reference I have, Mark VI's I have, etc..

What I did not like about Series III (the 4 I tested and the one I bought and then sold) is that from F4 and up it did not deliver the altissimo as I like it, and I like to use those notes. Nobody says a player should, but I like to.

But, for knowing this, the altissimo has to be known, this is, being experienced, and the first notes of it, may very well come out from almost any saxophone.

My teacher, Remi Alvarez (www.remialvarez.com) had to test several Reference 54 Tenors at Paris, France, before he decided which one to take, and the problem was with altissimo. All of them were fine horns, excelent horns, but with his fingerings, not all worked as he wanted. He is one of the best at the free jazz scene.

The advices given are very good. The reed seems soft. Need a harder reed but easy on it... develop the whole sound around the horn. Altissimo has to be added to the saxohpone, not instead of the low notes... which, may suffer from a harder reed at the beginning.

What I can tell, from fellow saxophone players, is that Yamahas are good at altissimo, but, essentially, and having it that instruments do make a difference, it is the player, not the horn.

All the best,

JI
 
#16 ·
It may be, I have no idea.

I might just be going at my Altisimo the wrong way, by simply blowing harder and faster with the new keys down, and it just so happened to work on my Tenor. It may be like when I was first learning my saxophone, I simply thought I could play it like my flute and go up an octave by blowing differently. One can of course, but it is much more practical to use the octave key.
 
#18 ·
Specify please? What does he say about what?
He hasn't actually every said anything negative about my sound, except that I don't have quite as large of range of volume on my Alto as I have had on the tenor. I'm first chair Alto in our honor band, and we're third honor band in Texas, which is the biggest (and best) highschool band scene you'll ever see.
 
#19 ·
In my experience, Tenor Altissimo is easier than the Altos Altissimo but not the Tenors low Altissimo varying around F# to A but different horns and all that.

The YAS-23 has straight forward Altissimo and so do the YAS-21's from my experience.

Altissimo is also a bit harder with the usual Selmer or Yamaha mouthpieces as opposed to a Dukoff or Jumbo Java etc.

The voicing for Alto Altissimo is a bit higher than with Tenor Altissimo.

Seeing that you can already do some Tenor Altissimo and can't seem to do much on Alto then it's probably due to something wrong with the YAS-23 or your Alto voicing needs a bit more work.

When I tried Tenor Altissimo I could already play Alto Altissimo and the main thing I had trouble with on the Tenor was the voicing for the lower Altissimo around A so I had to work on that but the Tenors higher Altissimo was a lot easier than the Altos to me.
 
#20 ·
I may see about getting a new mouthpiece as well. I've never heard alto altisimo played before, so that may be part of it. Who knows.
Also stated before, my YAS-23 may be at fault too, as it seems to be a farily nice horn, and even my friend's seems to be better than mine as far as tone goes (we've mixed our up a good several times).

What would a goo dmouthpiece be for concert band if not a Selmer C*. We only have one band director that plays saxophone, and she swears the Selmer C* is the way to go. I've never had a problem with it before, but I suppose there is always room to improve.
 
#22 ·
I will indeed look into those. I generally play on a Vandoren V16 reed if that makes any difference. I beleive its a closer cut to the mouthpiece than a regular Vandoren, but I'm not sure, its just something I do. Supposedly the V16 gives a better sound overall, and personally, I just like it. This shouldn't give me an issue, but sometimes I play on other reeds besides a Vandoren, and I know on my Clarinet, while the mouthpiece is admitedly over thirty years old, I can not play with any other reed besides a Vandoren on my Vandoren 2RV mpc, although this may be the Clarinet at fault, acting picky. (I would doubt it though, its a vintage LeBlanc.) Do the Vandoren mouthpieces for Sax act this way as well?
 
#23 ·
being a beginner on saxophone is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT then being a beginner on altissimo.
You are a beginner on altissimo.
ALTO AND TENOR ARE DIFFERENT voicing wise and fingering wise. This is not up to question.
MOST LIKELY, unless you have leaks, your Yamaha 23 will be fine for altissimo. I am very knowledgeable about this instrument.
C* is a fine mouthpiece to use.
The bottom line is you need to work on your voicing on ONE INSTRUMENT. Whichever is your main instrument. It sounds like that is alto. Alto is more difficult to get the altissimo due to the notes starting at a higher voicing and I believe moving in smaller degrees.
You can only work on your altissimo by working on your voicing. The best way to work on your voicing is by working on your overtone series.
If you are pushing lots more air and squeezing harder to get the altissimo out, you are sort of cheating. That kind of works but gives you VERY MINIMAL CONTROL. You only konw that you can hit an altissimo note if you can hit it at pp as well as FF and every dynamic in between.
I say, keep the same mouthpiece, work on your overtone series, and listen to whatever your teacher tells you to work on in this matter. *assuming they know what they are talking about*
There is a very good chance that your tenor is a better instrument and having a better neck then your alto because your Tenor is a pro model horn and your alto is a beginner model. If you really feel you must upgrade, then do it.
But I would also suggest more to play tenor since, for some reason, you have a much nicer tenor then alto.
 
#24 ·
Sorry, didn't mean to get you all riled up, I just said I wasn't really a beginner at altissimo (in the range that I actually learned to play), because I've been able to play it for a year. I would stick with Tenor, except for the facts that: 1) The Yana tenor (which I even picked out :x) is owned by the 8th grade (we have a seperate school for each grade from 6-8 /:), 2) I don't like tenor parts.

Anyway, I guess I just really have a dud YAS-23.
 
#26 ·
The spread between Altissimo overtones is smaller on Alto than Tenor so the voicings on Alto tend to need to be more accurate and even more so as Altissimo goes up past Altissimo D.

These fingerings work on my YAS-23 with various voicings so you could play around with these.

No Front F Alto

F#: x o x | x o o, x x x | x x o side Bb, x x o | x x o
G: x o x | x o o side Bb, x o x | x o x
Ab: x o x | x o o side C, o x x | x o o side Bb
A: o x x | o o o
Bb: o o x | o o o, o o o | o o o (overblown C#)
B: palm D o o o | o o o (overblown palm D) , x x x | x x x, (overblown D)
C: palm D palm Eb o o o | o o o (overblown palm Eb)
C#: palm D palm Eb o o o | o o o side E (overblown palm E)
D: palm D palm Eb palm F o o o | o o o side E (overblown palm F)
Eb: o o x | o o o, o o o | o o o (overblown C#)

Front F Alto

F#: Front F o x o | o o o side Bb, Front F o x o | x x o
G: Front F o o o | x o o side Bb
Ab: Front F o o o | o o o side Bb
A: Front F o o o | o o o side C
Bb: Front F o o o | o o o side E
B: Front F o x x | o o o (overblown E with Front F)
C: Front F o x o | o o o (overblown F with Front F)
C#: Front F o x o | o o o side Bb (overblown F# with Front F)
D: Front F o o o | x o o side Bb (overblown G with Front F)
Eb: Front F o o o | o o o side Bb (overblown Ab with Front F)
 
#28 ·
Yes that's right.

I'd say most players mix the Front F Altissimo fingerings (especially the lower Front F fingerings) in with the no Front F Altissimo fingerings.

I've found that just Front F based Altissimo fingerings can work very well from regular E up to Altissimo Eb and that means that no really weird fingerings are needed and once your finger is on the Front F it doesn't have to move for another note which means that these Front F based Altissimo fingerings are great for speed once you get the voicings right but each to their own thing.

I've heard of other players just using Front F based Altissimo fingerings as well.

I practice both the Front F based Altissimo fingerings and the no Front F based Altissimo fingerings and I mix them up for different sounding tones as well.
 
#29 ·
Along the lines of practicing your overtones to facilitate learning the altissimo range, make certain that you are using your oral cavity/throat/tongue as well as air speed and breath support to voice these notes, and not relying on clamping of the jaw and biting.

Attempting to choke the notes out by tensing up and biting is a path to certain failure and bad habits. This is probably the most common error committed by the budding student of the high register.
 
#30 ·
): Yeah, I know, bad me. I just couldn't seem to figure out why it wouldn't come out, and force of habit from playing the flute along with it. I'm actually about to take my alto to the shop, as soon as my mom wakes up, to go get it leak checked. I'm pretty sure it has a leak, last night while playing it, when I was getting ready to put it up, there was a small puddle of condensation where the saxophone had been sitting.


Oh, and saxpiece, are the "x" or "o" fingers that you hold down or not?
 
#33 ·
I got the chance to try out a brand new, unlacquered yamaha custom z. I felt it did respond better in the altissimo register than my horn, and that it produced better intonation.

Just me.
 
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