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Thread: Slippery slopes

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    Default Slippery slopes

    Is this section of the forum in violation of the no politics/religion guideline? Tough question. Gospel is a genuine genre. Religion has inspired musicians throughout the ages. Is it possible to discuss the style while leaving out the reason a lot of musicians play? Kind of an administrative nightmare I would imagine.
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    SOTW Administrator hakukani's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Actually, this section has worked pretty well. The Christians haven't angered me, and I've only angered a couple of them. Most answer in a civilized manner when I've asked a question.

    It is, however, quite tempting to enter into debate by folks that are not Christians, since there aren't a whole lot of Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu folks on this forum, expecially if they are like me and usually use the 'new post' button.

    There does seem to be a number of Secular Humanists on the forum.

    I hope that it doesn't get to be a problem. I enjoy the Gospel genre very much.
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    I don't what to hijack this thread. But I have a very stupid question.

    Where exactly is the full set of forum rules? I don't seem to able to find them.

    And back on subject, while I have a very spiritual side to my life, I try to remember this is a saxophone forum and not the place to evangelize. However, I figure sharing my motivations for playing gospel is beneficial since it is so much apart of the genre. This and a few little antidotes into the world of a church musician are the things I think can be conveyed to folks of all beliefs since this is what so much of gospel music is about.
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by hakukani View Post
    Actually, this section has worked pretty well. The Christians haven't angered me, and I've only angered a couple of them. Most answer in a civilized manner when I've asked a question.

    It is, however, quite tempting to enter into debate by folks that are not Christians, since there aren't a whole lot of Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu folks on this forum, expecially if they are like me and usually use the 'new post' button.

    There does seem to be a number of Secular Humanists on the forum.

    I hope that it doesn't get to be a problem. I enjoy the Gospel genre very much.
    I'm right there with you Hak. The temptation for debate is there, but as Mike has pointed out in recent notices this is not the appropriate forum for those types of discussions. I must have missed the recent posts that elicited that administrative response. It should be possible to discuss gospel music without either evangelizing or denigrating. Even if you don't like, or are outright offended by the message, you can express your opinion of the music or the musician without attacking religious beliefs. I expect people to come to their own conclusions spiritually, and am not interested in changing anybody's mind. There is nothing to be gained there.
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Gospel, spirtual, praise, devotional...
    It's purpose is to sooth or stir the soul.
    I think that can be said of ALL music.
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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    I believe the prohibition would pertain to debating religious topics, not seeking help or sharing experiences in regard to a certain musical genre. That is why this section is not in violation of the policy.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    Is this section of the forum in violation of the no politics/religion guideline?
    This bothers me a little too. I have seen a few reminders recently of the "no politics,no religion" policy. Does not seem quite fair.
    Separate forum for political chat then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumps View Post
    I believe the prohibition would pertain to debating religious topics, not seeking help or sharing experiences in regard to a certain musical genre. That is why this section is not in violation of the policy.
    If that is the case then point taken. A separate politics forum would be a nightmare anyway.

    Even so I still don't like it. Surely chat about the "sacred" genre of music will throw up from time to time religious topics. It's only natural.

    If someone wants to debate a topic on sotw they are normally free to do so. It's partly what this whole intermaweb chat thingy is about surely?

    The problem arises if it is a religious topic in the sanctioned sacred forum.
    Were someone to disagree with a matter of faith in there it would promote, at the very least, a robust debate on a banned topic resulting in thread closure perhaps.

    Now if in the same thread posters were to only agree with the hypothetical matter of faith I would guess there would be no robust debate and no thread lock?

    This is the interesting thing for me.
    In my hypothetical scenario what made the difference for the thread to be locked was someone disagreeing with a matter of faith.

    So it would seem that religious topics are not banned, but disagreeing with pro religious opinion might be.

    All hypothetical of course. I may have the way the policy is and policed totally wrong. But I think it's an interesting point of debate. Which by most definitions is politics lol.

    BTW please don't interpret as a challenge to mods or forum rules ( to which I signed up)
    I just found it interesting.


    Damn that's a long post. Now no ones gonna read it. Bugger.

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    But is it really a separate genre? Is the 'intent' of the music enough to differentiate it? Seems to me that most of the contemporary praise/worship music is basically light-weight pop. We were discussing this with relatives who are fans of it, and my wife pretty much put an end to the conversation when she stated, "MY God is 'a mighty fortress', NOT 'awesome'."
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by saxmanjack View Post
    But is it really a separate genre?
    Of course it's not. Be bop can be used in worship. Doesn't automatically turn all other bop into "sacred" music.
    But pursuing that line of argument I thought might lead me into thread lock territory. You started it.

    The forum management obviously disagree hence the sacred forums (presumably permanent) presence.

    I wasn't arguing for it's removal just though it was interesting to examine the contradictions

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    I think it can also be said that while someone might write something including their own beliefs (or lack thereof), we ought to be able to let them say it and refrain from responding. Hard, absolutely. Because we all have faith in our own beliefs. We trust our own thinking.

    Maybe the idea is to try not to be judgemental or think that each differening view than our own warrants a reply.

    In the name of the tenor, alto and soprano

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by thestudent View Post
    I think it can also be said that while someone might write something including their own beliefs (or lack thereof), we ought to be able to let them say it and refrain from responding. Hard, absolutely. Because we all have faith in our own beliefs. We trust our own thinking.

    Maybe the idea is to try not to be judgemental or think that each differening view than our own warrants a reply.

    In the name of the tenor, alto and soprano

    Harv
    The temptation to state a belief is there, as you say because we trust our own thinking and it is part of who we are. But given the premise of SOTW while it is ok and expected to say something like, "Coltranes solo on Russian Lullaby is totally overrated because his intonation was off on the 5th bar of the 3rd chorus.", it is not really relevant to say something like "As a member of the Judean Peoples Front ......... Will people get upset by slamming on Trane? Sure, who cares. Do people become upset because their religious outlook has been discounted or disrespected in some way? Hoooooooo boy, do they ever. It would be nice if you could apply the same "so what" attitude towards even a general, non-personal religious statement or comment. Somehow, politics and religion are special which is too bad. Hypersensitivity ends up causing forum administrators to come up with rules limiting free speech.


    As a community, SOTW is civil in my experience. There is not a lot of non-constructive negative commentary about each others playing, taste in music, etc. And I really haven't see a lot of flaming about politics or religion. I must not look at the right threads
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasquatch View Post
    But given the premise of SOTW while it is ok and expected to say something like, "Coltranes solo on Russian Lullaby is totally overrated because his intonation was off on the 5th bar of the 3rd chorus.", it is not really relevant to say something like "As a member of the Judean Peoples Front .........
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Rather then an out right prohibition on politics and religion how about we just require that any poster who makes a political or religious statement be required to listen to 5 minutes of my playing my C Melody with its original mouthpiece?

    I realize this may not be allowed in the US since there is a ban on cruel and unusual punishments.

    Come to think about it I wonder if certain government agencies would like to use my services as a replacement for water boarding?

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by FremontSax View Post
    Rather then an out right prohibition on politics and religion how about we just require that any poster who makes a political or religious statement be required to listen to 5 minutes of my playing my C Melody with its original mouthpiece?

    I realize this may not be allowed in the US since there is a ban on cruel and unusual punishments.

    Come to think about it I wonder if certain government agencies would like to use my services as a replacement for water boarding?
    Cool,

    As long as I can play my own Buescher C-Mel with the original mouthpiece, that sounds great. So now I can give complete sermons here on SOTW as long as I have cool 1920's sounding sax playing in the background?
    Good Luck,

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Quote Originally Posted by Enviroguy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FremontSax View Post
    Rather then an out right prohibition on politics and religion how about we just require that any poster who makes a political or religious statement be required to listen to 5 minutes of my playing my C Melody with its original mouthpiece?

    I realize this may not be allowed in the US since there is a ban on cruel and unusual punishments.

    Come to think about it I wonder if certain government agencies would like to use my services as a replacement for water boarding?
    Cool,

    As long as I can play my own Buescher C-Mel with the original mouthpiece, that sounds great. So now I can give complete sermons here on SOTW as long as I have cool 1920's sounding sax playing in the background?
    You don't get off that easy, it is my playing that you have to listen too.

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    How about having to listen to me playing a Holton C melody with not only the original mouthpiece, but with the original C melody REEDS?
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    I was similarly curious about the specifics of the rule and its application to the Sacred Sax topic. The only official text I could find on this rule is, simply: “NO POLITICS, NO RELIGION”. There is a world of difference between arguing versus referencing. The Administrator would do everyone a great service by:

    1. Explaining the rule in more detail, possibly by example;
    2. Explaining the rule in the context of the “Sacred Sax - Church and other sacred music” section;
    3. Exercising a more guiding and instructive role, rather than one of anger and threats.
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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    There is no need to explain anything. This is a privately run forum, not governmental action, and even if only open to US membership the Constitution would not apply. This forum section is allowed to exist by the very fact that it is here and folks can discuss issues applicable to the music in question. Bickering about taboo, non-saxophone related topics elsewhere is not allowed. It is perfectly clear and there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be said or explained. The rest is up the membership; to either go along with it or leave. Period.

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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    Grumps:

    If this issue is perfectly clear to you, then congratulations. You needn’t read or comment further. However, I don’t believe I am alone in finding the rule to be vague. I simply want to know what I can and cannot say with respect to specific sacred music traditions and practice. And I would especially like to hear what the Administrator has to say about it.
    Terry

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    Distinguished SOTW Member/Logician Grumps's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slippery slopes

    It's not vague. You simply wish to start trouble over ideology. You know it and I know it... and I have no dyslexic dog in this fight. Leave it be would be my advice and move on to saxophone subjects or allowable off topic discussions that interest you here instead. It's all been said before, so you can either search for it or ask a moderator to explain privately, rather than grandstanding.

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