Leblanc Sax Serial Number Registry

[FremontSax]

I have been searching the web for Leblanc Saxophones trying to put a serial number list together this is what I have found.

Serial Number Type Year Source

542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm

681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b...eblanc_altsax/

752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b...lanc_tenorsax/

775 Tenor Semi Rationale ebay

909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm

1015 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoView...15&PhotoNum=27

1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php

1135 Alto Semi Rationale www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b.../leblanc_s.r./

[FremontSax]

If you know of other Leblanc (labeled as such) saxophones please post what you know. Maybe we can jointly put together enough info to form a proper serial number to year list.

[jazfyrski]

Thanks for taking on this worthy task---although I'm not sure how many responses you'll receive.

Regardless, here's my "contribution":

I recently bought a Leblanc alto, serial #992. I know this horn is commonly referred to as either a "Rationale" or "Semi-Rationale", although it was officially designated by the Leblanc company as a Model 100 (Tenors were Model 120).

From vendor information and internet sources, I first assumed my horn was made c.1951; on further consideration, it seems likely it was built several years later.

[FremontSax]

Thanks for taking on this worthy task---although I'm not sure how many responses you'll receive.

Regardless, here's my "contribution":

I recently bought a Leblanc alto, serial #992. I know this horn is commonly referred to as either a "Rationale" or "Semi-Rationale", although it was officially designated by the Leblanc company as a Model 100 (Tenors were Model 120).

From vendor information and Internet sources, I first assumed my horn was made c.1951; on further consideration, it seems likely it was built several years later.

I am running a spread sheet and I will add a model number and publish it periodically upon this forum.

My efforts are minimal.... this to work has to be a collective issue.

Two positive results are possible, one the idea of a serial number to year estimation and two the ratio of altos to tenors..

PM me for a copy of the spread sheet

[warp x]

Serial 430 Tenor Semi Rationale

[AMASAX]

909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm

above link has at least one factual error:

The Leblanc System horns were not the first to have a high F#. Selmer introduced those, as an available option(not some sort of custom job) on the Balanced Action altos in the late 1930s. I've seen pics of two or three of these, and owned one myself(# 29,3xx).

These were later listed in the catalogs after the SBA models came out, after WWII.

As far as Leblanc, a few things I've picked up over the years, after having owned(still own) several of the Leblanc System horns, along with two of the Rationals(sp?):

The Rational horns were patented in the mid-late 1920s and produced somewhere after that, presumably into the 1930s.
Production of these likely ended in 1939 when France got dragged into WWII.
Btw, these horns are hopelessly complicated critters; not really usable for real playing, but quite interesting collectibles. Not many made, at least 100 or so, but I don't know the upper serial ranges on these.

The Leblanc System horns, otoh, are a usable refinement of the Rational system. Alto/Tenor only. I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

Manufacturing dates for the Leblanc System were, as far as I can tell, from the early 1950s(1953, per Abato?) up to the early 1970s. I worked in a music store in 1974, while in high school. Wanting to play an alto sax solo for contest, the store loaned me a funky alto to use - turned out to be either a new or New-Old-Stock Leblanc System alto(!). I don't think this horn had sat around for 5-10 yrs or so, and therefore concluded it had been built within a few years of when I used it. I never jotted down the serial, so can't offer that up.

These horns never made it, as they were evidently wayyyy too expensive to make, and therefore sell; plus, the 'system' never caught on. Kinda neat horns, nonetheless, and have a rep of being the best in-tune saxes ever made. I haven't thoroughly checked any of mine to verify this or not. One of these days I'll dig into these more, but up to this point, I just bought 'em and threw 'em in the closet.

I think there were some refinements to the keywork along the way, particularly from very early in the run. Search my other posts, I think there was a previous thread on this issue.

These pop up on ebay from time to time, so if you 'gots to have one', a little patience will probably pay off. Note that the tenors are much less common to find than the altos. I don't have any alto/tenor distribution, but ebay & websites seem to verify this; at least, over the last 10-12 years or so.

[AMASAX]

btw, 'Semi-Rational', 'Rational' or whatever, is incorrect to use in referring the later series. Those are correctly identified as 'Leblanc System' horns. Rational, etc., refers to the earlier, prototype horns from the 1920s-1930s.

[jazfyrski]

Great information, Amasax. Thank you!

The Leblanc System alto I have is a real treat. As you'd mentioned, the intonation is excellent but, to my ears, the most remarkable quality is the incredibly even timbre throughout the range. It's my understanding that the Leblanc company designers were determined to create a saxophone based--as faithfully as possible--on the Boehm system, where all the tone holes lower than the note played remain open.

But of course these horns are more celebrated (or chastised for!) the incredible number of alternate fingerings because of the radically innovative key system.

I only wish a respected saxophone historian, such as Dr. Paul Cohen, would write about this horn!

[FremontSax]

It seems that there are two distinct lines of serial numbers.

SR B xx and xxx

From the xxx group lowest number I have seen is 341 and the highest 1180

The xxx group was listed for sale as model 100 an alto or model 120 a tenor.

1974 leblanc instrument prices wholesale? retail? recommended retail?

http://www.clarinetperfection.com/ga...ces%201974.pdf

Saxgourmet.com does have copies of literature that use the model 100, model 120 and refer to them as having the feature "Leblanc System Fingering" it also refers to these saxophones on the second page as "Leblanc System Saxophones".

Serial Number Type Year Model Source
341 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...to/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Semi Rationale Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...or/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
670A Alto Semi Rationale http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rat...QQcmdZViewItem
681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b...eblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b...lanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor Semi Rationale Model 120 ebay
909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Semi Rationale Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoView...15&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...o/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1135 Alto Semi Rationale www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1180 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...o/2-tone/1180/
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html



SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...to/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/b.../leblanc_s.r./

[saintsday]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:



Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

[FremontSax]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:



Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

I think you are right that including the Vito model 35 there were three different iterations. I haven't bothered to cover the Vito's because doctorsax.biz has done a really good job.

From Leblanc

1) SRB based serial number.

From the photos they look old http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...to/silver/ex1/

2) The Model 100 and Model 120. I believe these were available into the 1970's given the above Leblanc Instrument Price List which is dated 1974. Similarily if you look at the patent images at gourmetsax you see filing dates in the early 1960's. So my Guess is the Model 100 and Model 120 were available from about 1961 to at least 1974.

3) The Vito Model 35

I have a Vito Model 35 that has serial number 470A with no statement of where it was manufactured. I think Dr. Sax would call this a transitional horn.
Parts probably made in France but assembled in Kenosha, WI

One instrument that I have on my list has a serial number 670A which is very similar to numbers used for the Vito Model 35. But the photos show that it has serial number 670A, the Leblanc engraving on the bell, the adjustment screws for setting up the pads.

One of my interests in this exercise, is to better determine the quantity of these instruments and at least a rough ratio of altos to tenors. I would like to better determine the dates but so far there is a lot of uncertainty.

I have looked at your Johny Hodges Vito photos before and compared them to my model 35. If you ignore the beautiful engraving on the Hodges (difficult to do but) the key work, the neck, the clothing and key guards look identical. So I have included it in my mind as a model 35.

[saintsday]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:



Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

I think you are right that including the Vito model 35 there were three different iterations. I haven't bothered to cover the Vito's because doctorsax.biz has done a really good job.

From Leblanc

1) SRB based serial number.

From the photos they look old http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L...to/silver/ex1/

2) The Model 100 and Model 120. I believe these were available into the 1970's given the above Leblanc Instrument Price List which is dated 1974. Similarily if you look at the patent images at gourmetsax you see filing dates in the early 1960's. So my Guess is the Model 100 and Model 120 were available from about 1961 to at least 1974.

3) The Vito Model 35

I have a Vito Model 35 that has serial number 470A with no statement of where it was manufactured. I think Dr. Sax would call this a transitional horn.
Parts probably made in France but assembled in Kenosha, WI

One instrument that I have on my list has a serial number 670A which is very similar to numbers used for the Vito Model 35. But the photos show that it has serial number 670A, the Leblanc engraving on the bell, the adjustment screws for setting up the pads.

One of my interests in this exercise, is to better determine the quantity of these instruments and at least a rough ratio of altos to tenors. I would like to better determine the dates but so far there is a lot of uncertainty.

I have looked at your Johny Hodges Vito photos before and compared them to my model 35. If you ignore the beautiful engraving on the Hodges (difficult to do but) the key work, the neck, the clothing and key guards look identical. So I have included it in my mind as a model 35.

Further clarification:

Every Vito system horn I've seen has had the A serial, including the Johnny Hodges which is serial 2551A. You are right to consider it a 35 since Leblanc called it a 135.

I've never seen a Vito system horn with a country of manufacture stamped on it and have assumed that they were all assembled in Kenosha from Beaugnier manufactured parts.

As far as I know, there were no Vito system tenors and based on tracking the Leblanc system horns for several years I would guess that the altos outnumber the tenors by at least 5 to 1. All of the Leblanc system horns I've seen are stamped France.

Please help me to find the price list. Maybe a new link to it?

I'm also having trouble finding the 670A horn.

Thanks for your efforts.

[FremontSax]

Saintsday,

I apologize, I must remember to not just cut a link here on sow because they often get abreviated.

Here is the link. I will correct my link up above as well.

http://www.clarinetperfection.com/ga...ces%201974.pdf

While I am at it. I looked up the exchange rates and inflation rates. These prices do not include the case.

In 1974 a model 100 alto which was listed at 354.64 pounds would have cost $829.86 here in the US. and adjusting for inflation that would be $3584.41 in 2008.
a model 120 tenor which was listed at 427.96 pounds would have cost $1001.43 here in the US and adjusting for inflation that would be $4325.47 in 2008.

Compare that to a French made Selmer today? to a Chinese made tenor?

[saintsday]

Thank you.

No wonder they couldn't make any money with them. That seems cheap for the complexity.

[FremontSax]

I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

I really wanted to highlight the above statement. Please look for the above add because if it references the Model 100 model 120 it would push the lower date from 1961 down to 1953.

I haven't looked into historical international patent law, but now days, you generally have one year from filing for a patent in one country to filing for it in other countries and you generally don't file a patent after you release your product. However, you can file (i think extensions) which push the filing date back and thus might help extend the patent. So delays from 1953 to 1961 might be very possible.

I have just received a patent in the US and the next time I talk to the filing lawyer I will risk spending a couple of extra bucks to find out his take on how extensions change filing dates.

Also, you can go to the us patent office web site and do searches on patents. Leon Leblanc as an inventor is there as is Leblanc as an assignee as is Vito. These records are public.

[Razorbaxsax]

I play an Vito Alto saxophone with the "Rationale" fingerings (extra F key, etc...) and was having trouble finding out when it was made and where. So I went to the music store where it was purchased in 1969 and the owner let me look through an original Leblanc repair manual from that year!! It stated that my horn, which has been handed down through my family since the late 60's, was made in paris and is the "Leblanc (Paris) System Model 9135 Vito Alto Saxophone". Serial 2425A I thought people might be interested in this story as researching serials becomes very difficult with these horns. The music store is Mid-South Music in Pine Bluff, AR - next to the old Band Museum. But he wouldn't sell the book to me

[Walter Webb]

Another Vito System alto for the serial number spreadsheet: 1156A
Thanks be to doctorsax.biz
If you are watching eBay for a decent Vito Kenosha that has been rebuilt expertly, just go to him. Forget that mysterious junker that might have been beaten with the ugly stick. His price is right.

1156A has no stamp of country of origen, but was presumably assembled in Kenosha of Beaugnier parts. I read somewhere that Vito defeated import taxes by assembling in USA.

Great alto. Sings, honks, squeals high, acts all high brow classical and plays whole tone scales easier than any sax, ever, with steps available in the right hand like you normally get with B-Bb, but add likewise G-Gb, A-Ab, C-Cb, C#-C, all done with the right middle finger.

[AMASAX]

I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

I really wanted to highlight the above statement. Please look for the above add because if it references the Model 100 model 120 it would push the lower date from 1961 down to 1953.

I haven't looked into historical international patent law, but now days, you generally have one year from filing for a patent in one country to filing for it in other countries and you generally don't file a patent after you release your product. However, you can file (i think extensions) which push the filing date back and thus might help extend the patent. So delays from 1953 to 1961 might be very possible.

I have just received a patent in the US and the next time I talk to the filing lawyer I will risk spending a couple of extra bucks to find out his take on how extensions change filing dates.

Also, you can go to the us patent office web site and do searches on patents. Leon Leblanc as an inventor is there as is Leblanc as an assignee as is Vito. These records are public.

Yes, the ad is correctly dated at 1953-1954. I picked it up off of ebay, and the seller cut it out of a magazine from that time period. I don't remember whether the ad I received has enough of the mag on the reverse that would include a date or not.

Pretty young pic of Abato, too. No doubt this timeframe is quite close/correct.

As for patents, I've seen copies of the 1926(I think that's correct) and later patents for the Rationals, but have not seen any paperwork for patenting the Leblanc System 100/120 horns.

Also, if you inquire about timeframes on patents, check to see if the rules have changed. Lots of time gone by in the last 50 yrs

I think saxpics had some pics of the old patents on his site, so you might check. Also, there's a guy on ebay who peddles copies of old patents(I bought one or two old Selmer copies from him). I don't remember whether he was selling any of the old Leblanc one or not. If so, I probably picked up some, but I just don't remember.

I buy 'stuff' off of ebay whenever something interesting pops. Unfortunately, I don't have this stuff organized. I just buy it and shove it somewhere, thinking I'll get it all sifted out later...and of course, later never arrives.

I've either seen or owned a Model 100 alto in the ~1350 range, so those estimates of up to around 1500 horns total may be fairly close. I've never seen a serial > ~1350, tho.

[FremontSax]

from ebay Switzerland

Model 100 serial number 1173

Nice looking horn for 899 Euros

http://cgi.ebay.ch/Leblanc-Leblanc-S...3%3A1|294%3A50

Very rare and in wonderful condition Leblanc "Leblanc-Systéme" Alto - saxophone Leblanc Model 100.

lots of alternate fingerings

many screws for keymechanism tuning

pads and springs are in good condition

serial number is 1173

no dents or repairs.

Original - case and original - neck plug.

Out of a collection.

[FremontSax]

from: this is actually from out of google's cache

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a

80. LEBLANC “Model 100”, #1260, laccato, campana incisa € 1.550