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Phil Barone PB Classic vs. Yamaha YAS-23

16K views 36 replies 17 participants last post by  LeonWho 
#1 ·
I currently have a Yamaha YAS-23 and want to upgrade to a Phil Barone PB Classic. However, since they're both around the same price, I was wondering if the PB Classic is actually much better than the YAS-23. Because if it isn't, it isn't worth the time and hassle to upgrade.

Thanks.
Leon
 
#2 ·
If you'd like, I'm sure Phil could considerably raise the price for you so you feel like you're buying a pro sax.

Phil's horns should be much nicer than a Yamaha 23.
 
#3 ·
If you'd like, I'm sure Phil could considerably raise the price for you so you feel like you're buying a pro sax.

Phil's horns should be much nicer than a Yamaha 23.
Thanks. That was the answer I needed. :D

And yeah, if the price was closer to $2000, I'd be more comfortable. :)
 
#4 ·
I said 'should' because I haven't played one, but every single review on this forum has at least said they're comparable to modern selmers etc with many saying that Phil's horns are better.
 
#5 ·
Now I just need to decide on either the PB Classic or the PB MAC 20.

The only differences that are important to me is that the PB MAC 20 has rolled tone holes while the PB Classic doesn't. Is this worth a $250 difference?
 
#6 ·
Rolled vs unrolled is a forever on-going debate in the sax community. It comes down to personal preference. Is it worth $250 more? Well, it's one more step in the manufacturing process, so yes, it should cost more on that basis alone. Rolled tone holes have come and gone. They keep coming back, because some people REALLY like them.
 
#8 ·
They generally help to promote longer pad life since the surface area on the pad is larger so they tend not to get cut as easily, the downside to this is they often cause pads to stick.
There shouldn't be any tonal differences between the two, but you'll notice a sound difference between the two models based off of their other differences toneholes aside. Easy threads for more information on this can be had by looking at the keilwerth sx90 vs. sx90r threads. Same horn, one has rolled holes, the other doesn't. That will help you a bit.
I wasn't saying the $250 wasn't worth it for the manufacturing process, I was saying that playability wise it probably isn't worth it.
 
#13 ·
The PB Classic is a Pro level horn. Phil sells them for the prices he does because he doesn't use any dealers as middle-men with their upcharge. They are made at the same factory as the P. Mauriat Horns but supposedly with better pads and resonators.

Ergonomics are similar to most other modern horns. The PB Classic has a bore like the Mark VI, the PB MAC 8 is a larger bore so if you're using a mouthpiece with a large chamber, the PB Classic should do fine. Phil will send you one to try out, but if you send it back, the cost of shipping is on you, and if it is damaged in any way he will have to charge you for it.

The YAS-23 is considered a student horn, albiet a very good one as most Yamahas are.
 
#17 ·
The PB Classic is a Pro level horn. Phil sells them for the prices he does because he doesn't use any dealers as middle-men with their upcharge. They are made at the same factory as the P. Mauriat Horns but supposedly with better pads and resonators.
They're actually not still made at the P. Mauriat factory, but whatever. That doesn't matter, just look around for reviews
 
#14 ·
I've never found rolled tone holes to make a difference except with the Conn 10M, although I haven't played enough of them to make a definitive statement. They may save the pads, but I also find them to be sticky, requiring a stiffer action to make the keys snap back. If I remember what Phil told me, the Mac 20 has a smaller bore than the other two models. You would have to confirm with him.
 
#19 ·
Because we are talking about P. Mauriats, I'll give my views on one.

I tested a P. Mauriat PMXA-67RX a few days ago, as I took my 1988 Yas-23 to the shop to have it fully checked and prepared for next week's concert.

The P. Mauriat is a great horn. I find it a modern Selmer that has been perfected, as I found the tonal characteristic and key setup much smoother and refined to a pair of Selmer IIs & IIIs I tested before. If you are a fan of the modern Selmers, you will probably like this more.

How does it fair to my 1988 Yas-23? While the P. Mauriat is a good, solid horn, my 23 is the obvious victor. The tonal quality, while darker than my 23, is smaller and reserved compared to the big, bold and lively personality of my horn. The P. Mauriat's key-work was also a big letdown for me, as it was patterned off the modern Selmers. I really wish more companies would pattern the key-work of their saxophones from Yamahas and Yanigasawas.
 
#20 ·
Leon,

Just so you know, you can't compare the Mauriat to one of my saxophones because well first of all the price. My horns are 40 to 50% less because you're coming directly to the distributor, me. Secondly, my horns with the exception of the sopranos come with one of my necks and necks are extremely important, they change everything. So unless you put one of my necks on the Mauriat you can't get an even playing field.

Personally I've played two YAS 23's and to me they were just a good student horn and nothing else. I would never consider it a professional horn. Whether you could see the difference would depend on your level as a player. Maybe you don't need a pro horn yet because a lot of the difference between a student horn and a pro horn are subtle and it takes a trained ear to hear the difference.

I'm a very anti-equipment guy in spite of my business. I don't like seeing players going crazy switching horns and mouthpieces at the expense of practicing because I have their best interest at heart which is refining their art and there's no substitute for practicing and there's something to be said for playing the same mouthpiece and horn for prolonged periods of time. They become very familiar and that's good.

If you're really ready and can appreciate a new horn then go for it, my horns are great, as good as anything available and I'll feel good selling you one. You may PREFER a different one like a Selmer or Yani or Mauriat (I doubt the Mauriat just because my neck is so much better) but otherwise if you prefer my horn you'll like it as much as anything.

Now there's another reason for getting a new horn even if technically you may not be ready. If you're in a slump and need a jolt to your reason for playing psychologically, having a nice new horn may encourage you to practice more. Without a doubt my horns and most of the pro horns are much nicer looking than the YAS-23. So in a roundabout way you will be a better player as a result of getting a new horn even if you weren't ready for it.

I know that when I get a new horn I'm definitely more inclined to practice more because it encourages me. Yeah, I look at myself in the mirror and all that but if I sound better and the horn allows me to do things that I wasn't able to before then without a doubt I practice even MORE.

But anyway, if you're not going to feel good about it in a week then don't buy it. The whole point is for you to feel good about doing it and improve your playing otherwise I wouldn't be doing this. Phil Barone
 
#23 ·
At 4 years, I couldn't tell the difference. In fact, at that time, I didn't even want anything to do with a modern sax at all! I started on old LH bell key Bundy/Buescher student model Alto and Tenor, and anything else felt weird! That changed around year 8, when I did start to notice sound difference, and could play around with different ergos.

My current Alto and Tenor are my newest saxes (selling my straight soprano), and my Soprano, C-Melody, and Bari my oldest. 2 different sets of ergos, but all with fast actions, and big tone that my student models lacked.
 
#24 ·
At 4 years, I couldn't tell the difference. In fact, at that time, I didn't even want anything to do with a modern sax at all! I started on old LH bell key Bundy/Buescher student model Alto and Tenor, and anything else felt weird! That changed around year 8, when I did start to notice sound difference, and could play around with different ergos.

My current Alto and Tenor are my newest saxes (selling my straight soprano), and my Soprano, C-Melody, and Bari my oldest. 2 different sets of ergos, but all with fast actions, and big tone that my student models lacked.
I don't know about that. I'm not calling you slow or anything, but I think I would have easily noticed a difference at about year 6 or so, and I started in primary school and have only been playing about 9 years or so.
 
#28 ·
I no longer get my horns for the same factory as Mauriat, they have their own factory now. I chose to instead to go to smaller factories because they're more hungry and eager to please me and as a result the quality is better, much better with regard to little things like felts and corks being glued in right. The parts are the same and there's no change in the design whatsoever. However they cost me more and my profit was small to begin with so now it's even smaller which is fine with me as long as you guys are happy. Phil Barone
 
#29 ·
Well I can tell you one thing. The quality is there, each of us has a different idea for our sound which is a good thing but means that I cant tell you that you will love the PB MAC 8, or 20 or the classic, or another horn all together.

What I can tell you is that my PB MAC 20 is hands down my nicest horn. It is solid, has a smooth quite action, a big warm sound and its versatile. I use the Vintage MPC that phil sent me free for buying the horn and its perfect for this horn. Its easy to play but has just a tad of resistance so I can shape my sound, its nice and warm in the bottom but with sparkle when its pushed.

The build quality of the horn is spot on and as good as any top 4 horn.

For me this was the perfect horn, and the price was amazing, Phil and Mike have been great and the free vintage mpc is now my favorite tenor piece hands down.
 
#36 ·
Just a personal not on the Yamaha 23 - I have my first horn still, and it plays great and very much in tune - but it is a student horn as Phil points out. The keywork is noisy and the tone slim and not a lot of volume - but a good sax.

Buy the Barone - it will take you further.
 
#37 ·
Whoa. Didn't know that this thread was still getting replies.

Just as an update, I ended up going with a low digit Selmer Mark VII alto saxophone and I couldn't be happier!
 
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