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Bought 1936 Aristocrat Tenor - Part II - new pictures

8K views 46 replies 18 participants last post by  BeyondSax 
#1 ·
Hi again, I thought I'd start a new thread (part II) with some new pictures, so they don't get lost in the middle of my first post. These pictures are a bit sharper and provide some more detail. I was hoping to get a second look from some of you.

This is a recently purchased Buescher Aristocrat Series I tenor sax (serial 275xxx). My dad and I purchased it for $800, not really knowing much about vintage saxes - I'm a sax player turned "boring accountant", but I just never knew much about vintage horns, or about it's relative condition, other than it looked to be in great shape.

For the first post and more background, see my initial post here.

These new pictures show the color of the lacquer better than my previous post. We took the photos with a better camera (dSLR), so we could get some up close, in focus, good color pictures. So, please have a look at these new pictures and let me know what (additional) thoughts you might have.

Also, I do have several questions:

1) What might be the value of this sax -- same opinion as in initial post, or have the new pictures changed anything? I have no plans to sell it, but I'd just like to know for kicks.

2) What do I do with this thing? When we first got it, we delivered it to a tech to have him look at, but we later changed our mind and went and picked it back up before he did anything to it. We want to be sure we're doing the right things, and only what's necessary. Any advice on what you would do first thing if this horn was in your care? Leave it as is? Find a good tech to do adjustments? Anything

3) Does the new batch of pictures confirm the opinions in the prior post, or change them at all? In the new batch of pictures, you can see signs that the horn definitely had a life prior to sitting in the last owner's closet for likely several decades (he wasn't a sax player). Any negatives stand out to your eye (e.g., the neck opening on the body has some corrosion, one of the few spots).

4) In the engraving below the serial number, and in a few other places (e.g., on the case), it reads "True Tone" and "Low Pitch". I thought True Tones were before the Series I horns. My serial 275xxx falls into the series I range. What's the deal here -- do all Series I's say "True Tone" on them?

5) What do you think of the "Buescher" reed sleeve -- it was in the case, and I'm guessing the sax probably hasn't been played since around the time that this reed was purchased. Any guesses on the date of this type of sleeve? I forgot to get my dad to take a picture of the read itself (I'll ask).

6) The neck only goes in about 75% of the way, and we don't want to force it. Not sure why yet. Does the neck look original? How would I know if it's a matching neck? I'm guessing the neck opening on the body is just too tight together -- something to do with the corrosion there, but I have no idea how to adjust this, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself...suggestions?

7) Anything else...I have a lot of questions and don't know where to start. Probably I'll have more when I finally get to hold and play (maybe in January).

By the way, thank you for the great responses to my prior post!!! You guys are so knowledgeable, and I really appreciate you helping me learn more about this beautiful vintage horn. This forum is awesome!

On to the pictures...
 
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#2 ·
More Photos (2 of 4)...
 
#3 ·
More photos (3 of 4)...
 
#4 ·
More photos (4 of 4)...
 
#5 ·
So, the photos as uploaded aren't large enough to see all the detail, but if you would like a closer look at anything, let me know, and I can send you a higher resolution photo.

Thanks!
 
#34 ·
Sent...

I'm also going to get a better shot of that posted. The focal point is off in this shot, so it's not as crisp as it could be...
 
#7 ·
it's a beautiful, vintage saxophone in beautiful condition......one of the more desired Buescher tenors; it's value in that pristine condition would be quite a lot.
 
#35 ·
From Chu Jerry:
It appears to have it's original pads, at least in the couple of shots where the pads are clearly seen. The shiny lacquer finish coat can be seen on the outer edges...
From JiCaino:
I'm thinking top class restoration. >The true tone low pitch stamp looks a little fainty...
In a restoration, would they keep the original pads? As Chu Jerry pointed out, and as was pointed out by our local tech when he first saw the horn, the pads on this thing have the lacquer around the edges. Maybe they would restore it in the same manner though...
 
#10 ·
Oh my Gosh! What a beauty. I own 9 Bueschers of various sorts. I'd kill for this tenor! Have it gone over by a really, really good tech. I always use Saxquest in St. Louis, but them I'm lucky enough to live just an hour and a half away. Awesome. You really lucked out on getting this thing for 800 bucks, even if you have to spend another 800 to get in top notch playing order.
 
#11 ·
That is either a top class restoration - or near unplayed and over 70 years old.

There is no real way to make a reasonable guess at the potential value - but you could try by looking for something comparable... remembering that this is considered the most desirable range of serial numbers by (among others) the classical players who follow Rascher.
If it really is what it looks like you could start at the price of a NEW Selmer 54 - and work upwards from there.

http://www.vintagesax.com/tenor.html
 
#12 ·
1) What might be the value of this sax -- same opinion as in initial post, or have the new pictures changed anything? I have no plans to sell it, but I'd just like to know for kicks.

2) What do I do with this thing? When we first got it, we delivered it to a tech to have him look at, but we later changed our mind and went and picked it back up before he did anything to it. We want to be sure we're doing the right things, and only what's necessary. Any advice on what you would do first thing if this horn was in your care? Leave it as is? Find a good tech to do adjustments? Anything

3) Does the new batch of pictures confirm the opinions in the prior post, or change them at all? In the new batch of pictures, you can see signs that the horn definitely had a life prior to sitting in the last owner's closet for likely several decades (he wasn't a sax player). Any negatives stand out to your eye (e.g., the neck opening on the body has some corrosion, one of the few spots).

4) In the engraving below the serial number, and in a few other places (e.g., on the case), it reads "True Tone" and "Low Pitch". I thought True Tones were before the Series I horns. My serial 275xxx falls into the series I range. What's the deal here -- do all Series I's say "True Tone" on them?

5) What do you think of the "Buescher" reed sleeve -- it was in the case, and I'm guessing the sax probably hasn't been played since around the time that this reed was purchased. Any guesses on the date of this type of sleeve? I forgot to get my dad to take a picture of the read itself (I'll ask).

6) The neck only goes in about 75% of the way, and we don't want to force it. Not sure why yet. Does the neck look original? How would I know if it's a matching neck? I'm guessing the neck opening on the body is just too tight together -- something to do with the corrosion there, but I have no idea how to adjust this, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it myself...suggestions?

...
Very beautiful horn. Here are my answers to your questions:

1) It's obviously in near mint cosmetic condition. If in excellent playing conditon also (see #2, below), I wouldn't take a penny less than $3000 for that horn. Of course you could only get what someone is willing to pay, but condition adds to the value and a collector might pay a lot more than 3 k. I think it should be in the hands of a player, though.

2) What you should do is find a reputable tech who knows Bueschers and have them put the horn in top playing condition. There is a difference between playing condition and cosmetic condition. Since it's been sitting around so long, even though it looks great it might need new pads, adjustment, etc. The 'right thing to do' is get that horn in excellent playing condition. Don't let any tech near it who won't keep the snap-ins!

3) These pics definitely confirm the positive opinions expressed in the last thread. I'm convinced by these photos that it is original lac.

4) "True Tone" is engraved on almost all vintage Bueschers. It is not unique to the "True Tones" of the '20s. "Low Pitch" means it is pitched to A = 440, as are all modern horns. That's what you want.

5) The Buescher reed sleeve is very cool and probably a collector's item (probably not worth anything, though, but I don't know much about collectors). Put it away somewhere safe so you can include it if you ever want to sell the horn (some buyers might really like it).

6) The neck fit can, and should, be easily adjusted by a tech. You were smart not to force it. I think there's a good chance it's the original neck since the lac seems to match, at least in the photos.

Finally, you said you don't know anything much about vintage horns. In that case you & your dad stumbled on a real gem!!!!

One more thing. When you play the horn, you might want to try some more modern mpcs on it. The Buescher mpc might be a very good one, but will probably play very dark, which is fine if you are playing classical music, but maybe not what you want for jazz, blues, etc.
 
#14 ·
One more thing. When you play the horn, you might want to try some more modern mpcs on it. The Buescher mpc might be a very good one, but will probably play very dark, which is fine if you are playing classical music, but maybe not what you want for jazz, blues, etc.
I have a Brillhart metal mpc...I think it's a 7*. I'll try that one, and see how it sounds. I used to have a Berg Larsen 110/0 sms that I liked, but it was edgy. But, I was using a modern horn too.

Any suggestions on what mpc's might work well for a good jazz sound on this one, but retains the tonal qualities of the vintage saxes?
 
#17 ·
I agree. It's collectors who will pay top money for one like this, and they will want it as original as possible. I wouldn't even touch the neck. If someone is going to pay maybe $2,500.00+ for such an instrument, they should decide what work is done on it.

I know it's heresy around here, but, on reflection, I actually think this horn should be in a display case. No doubt it would play really well, but chances are that there are ordinary looking Series I Aristocrats out there that play better still. The uniqueness of this one is its preservation.
 
#16 ·
So, if I start a Part III, then that might look suspicious ;)

The new pictures are so much more clear this time -- in focus, a little truer color of the lacquer, etc.

I am really excited though, so I'm trying to learn as much as I can!
 
#18 ·
Just take it to a GOOD tech and then PLAY it.

It is just a tool, after all, albeit a nice shiny one.

Ooooooooh, shiny... ;)

(I like shiny. It's a good thing.)
 
#21 ·
Examine the strap ring at about 2 o'clock. Is there any evidence of wear from the hook?
I have an immaculate Big B, yet there is wear on the ring which belies the condition of the horn. It is comforting to know that a horn can be used, yet remain in near perfect condition, if looked after.
 
#36 ·
Requesting some photos of this area, and I'll post when I have them.
 
#27 ·
Michael Fox in a movie used and trashed that car (He hangs the ferrari accelerated in reverse over a couple of jack stands and spins it in reverse for reducing the odometer, and he bumps the car accidentaly and it goes thru the window in the back into a beautifull park) Am I right?
 
#28 ·
PS 1 my aristocrats ain't likes bergs (neither do I! )

PS2 that horn is worth more like 4 to 5 k to me. I know that I can get that money from some of my hardcore collectors customers.

PS3 If that was my horn and I have paid for it the minute amount of money you spent on it, I'd wear and tear it myself joyfully playing it. If you get a bargain on such a horn (wich by the way if it's a relacquer it's done at Buescher's like they used to do before WWII, offering refinishing, resnapping, snap retrofit, repad and such services) I think you're to play it and not to make financial profit out of it. I think that anyone selling that horn for cheap is expecting the new owner to play it and enjoy it. I have sold a couple of pristine examples for very little money knowing that the person I was selling the horn to was going to really enjoy the horn and provide it a good active life.
 
#29 ·
PS3 If that was my horn and I have paid for it the minute amount of money you spent on it, I'd wear and tear it myself joyfully playing it. If you get a bargain on such a horn (wich by the way if it's a relacquer it's done at Buescher's like they used to do before WWII, offering refinishing, resnapping, snap retrofit, repad and such services) I think you're to play it and not to make financial profit out of it. I think that anyone selling that horn for cheap is expecting the new owner to play it and enjoy it. I have sold a couple of pristine examples for very little money knowing that the person I was selling the horn to was going to really enjoy the horn and provide it a good active life.
Well said. This is the truth as I see it. Here's another point:

Since it appears to be in such excellent condition, it probably doesn't need any major work done (maybe a few pads and some adjustment), but even if it needed a total overhaul by the finest tech around for say, $1000, you'd still only have $1800 in it, which would be a stupendous bargain! If it were mine, under the same circumstances (getting it for $800), I'd take it to a reputable tech who I trusted and have him/her go over it with a fine-tooth comb and put it into first-class, tip-top playing condtion.

Just as an aside for those who might not realize this, the fact is a brand new, top-of-the-line horn is not likely to be in the absolute best playing condition, and a good tech can put a 70-year old horn into better playing condition than most horns coming out of the factory today.
 
#30 ·
The question is have you play tested it? I think that there's pretty good chances of the horn being a top notch player as is. I started on a late true tone that was thrown in a chickenyard for 40 years before I got it for free (no kidding! this was the venting of a music-jealous mentally unstable wife the day her husband retired from a military band! ) all I did with the horn (besides leaving the case open outside for about 4 months to try'n get rid of the yardbird crap smell) was putting a new reed and eventually a MPC on it. It played fine just out of the abandoned condition.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I'm really appreciating the thoughts and counter-thoughts on whether to keep this thing untouched (for the most part...I would have to play it at some point...who could resist?) and in a display case, or whether to get it tuned up into premium playing shape, and just play it!!

Tough call...I certainly see both sides. I love saxophone, and playing has been an important part of my past. I don't have the time to play as much as I want anymore. But, a few grand profit isn't going to change my world (and it's 50/50 with my dad, right, so half the profit to me), so I don't know that I would ever sell it.

In my mind I'm thinking, I could spend a week in Hawaii (maybe) with the proceeds of the sell, or have this incredible vintage sax for life...easy choice (and it's not Hawaii).

However, the fact I intend to keep it doesn't mean I've determined whether or not to play it or preserve it. Perhaps I can do both though. After all, I don't play a whole lot, and I don't gig or anything anymore.

I think I'll post a poll (click here to go to poll)...

By the way, I do have another sax I can play. It has some sentimental value to me, but otherwise is not a highly sought after horn. It's a Selmer Signet (with "S" brace and tone holes on backside of the bell). However, the pads on it are practically decaying, and I have used tape in several spots to temporarily quiet the clicking down. It needs an overhaul, but the overhaul would cost more than the horn...
 
#38 ·
If it's a top class in house (Buescher) restoration they would have stripped it down and by the time they got to assemblying it again they would have proceeded as they did on a new horn. That is lacquering, assemblying and then applying the final thin coat of lacquer you guys mention.

Received the pic and answered the email. The logo is crisp, not as crisp as some silverplated closet queens that I have but crisp. I've seen original lacquer horns and sometimes they have less deep imprints (perhaps already refinished in the production process as ew have discussed in another thread) The numbers (serial) are really crisp crisp. I'm leaning to minty original on one side and top, really top notch restoration on the other, but a Buescher's restoration.
 
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