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What the LefreQue?

152K views 597 replies 79 participants last post by  Angel Sampedro del Río 
#1 ·
Sorry about the pun...I couldn't resist!

However, I am obsessed with any accessory that might improve my tone, technique, or artistry with the saxophone. I saw this website and was simultaneously intrigued and amused:

http://www.lefreque.com/home

Has anyone here tried this item? Can you please provide an informed review?

Thanks!
 
#497 ·
I laughed a lot reading about this LeFreque thing. But it tells much about how stupid commercials think we are. I'd find it quite insulting as a customer.
A good instrument, a working setup, and you. That's all there is to it... If it doesn't work, no such accessory will make it work.
BUT it might make your instrument look like a Christmas tree ! And THAT might be what some are looking for ! :D
 
#498 ·
I was thinking today about a common ad slogan, the kind that starts with "you deserve," as if everyone sitting in front of the TV necessarily deserves whatever the ad is selling. I think people are starting to believe it. There's a meme going around: "We all deserve morning sex and pancakes." I beg to differ.

We probably do all deserve the LeFreQue, however.
 
#499 ·
You guys are all *ssh*les because the first 3 pages made me laugh so hard I had to sit and read through the other 22 pages. :bluewink2:
Look, there is this guy from my hometown that most people haven't really ever heard of, Lester Polsfuss, who played around a lot with trying different materials, metals and rubbers on flywheels, motors and drives to see if he could change sound through vibration. Towards the end of some seriously brilliant experimental work he figured out that while vibration is very important, instead of that you should focus on the electronic aspect of your sound recordings to change them to your liking.

If Lester were to stumble upon this thread I'm pretty sure he would smile, take a gentle sip of Blatz and tell us that this metal doodad does vibrate real nice but it would perhaps be better to check into your microphone setup, amplifier setup and recorder if you want to squeeze out a little something extra special from your playing.

FYI, I just had the most awkward conversation with the owner of http://stores.quickhornrinse.com/combo-lefreque-sm-3-silver-plate/ and can say with some certainty that this thing is mostly a very expensive novelty that a very small group of euphonium players get a kick out of.
 
#505 ·
Wow. That brought back a memory I had totally forgotten. Back in the early 70's when the Earth Shoe came out I bought a pair because I believed that hype. Wow were they great.....NOT. See, I lived in San Francisco at the time and if you think walking up those hills is hard on your legs (and I was young, strong, and athletic) try doing it with your body leaning backwards because your heels are way lower than your toes. Of course what goes up must come down, so on the downhill slopes I was cruisin'. Friggn' brilliant design for sure.
 
#506 ·
I saw a first prototype of this " gizmo" many years ago ( about 8 or 9) back then it was only applicable to a saxophone and maybe a clarinet and it was a pice of metal which was placed in a section of the neck cork which was cut out to allow this piece of metal (aluminum) to be placed there between the mouthpiece and the metal of the neck.

The place I saw it was Matthews in Edam where Hans Kuijt was often a guest and where I've met him several times and we had friendly contacts back then (until I declared my position on this matter, I have no personal grudge with Hans who is, in fact, a very nice person in many ways we just disagree on acoustics matters).

I did try the awkward prototypical gizmo ( hoping it wouldn't scratch the shaft of my mouthpiece) and I found it a pain in the proverbial derriere and completely useless.

Then years later 2011, they came up with this improved version a piece of metal (a " sound" bridge!) to connect all and any disconnect-able parts of any wind instrument ( some have really many parts!) which would carry the sound around.

The funny thing about this is that all that many years ago the owner of this gizmo design were two people Ton Kooiman ( a well known repairer and maker of several add-on things in the woodwind world, like the " forza" thumb rests) and Hans Kuijt a saxophone player , at least their name is still together on the patents ( http://patents.justia.com/assignee/le-freque-holding-b-v) , however Ton Kooiman seems to have dropped his participation in this enterprise.

I wonder why that was, I remember to have asked him but he didn't say.

The same year or the one before I had met Hans Kuijt at the Frankfurter Musikmesse where he went to plug this product ( some would say " push") . He was demonstrating this gizmo in a hall full of people trying all sorts of woodwind and brass instruments.

There was Nothing to be heard although he did his best ( unconsciously affecting his sound) while showing ( not blindly playing but just showing how to place it and take it off) that the gizmo did what he said he did. He asked me to stand in front and listen. I did I heard nothing, smiled and walked away.

Yet, I wasn't and still am not thinking that he had done this in bad faith, on the contrary, I am sure that he really believes in it, but like all the inventors, they become so focussed on their thing that they lose contact with objectivity.

When Hans came here to SOTW to present his product, he was met with obvious criticism to which he responded not being amused.He presented a large part of annedoctical " evidence"

He talked of many tests ( among which public performances that you can find on you tube) and also blind tests that he and his followers have carried out ( those I've never found on line). He also said that he was going to have this tested at an institute of learning but I am still waiting for any publishing of a paper from the technical university of Delft, for example, attesting the result of double or triple blind tests.

Lacking this still, so many years after they patented their gizmo, it is very difficult to me to still believe in the good faith of anyone who makes money on an object which promises and effect based on a so-implied scientific and Physics effect, that has never been scientifically tested.

Where is the beef? ( real one not pretend beef like these, all " tests" where the player is aware whether the lefreque is on or off).

Perhaps should I ask: " Where is the wolf?". Since time immemorial, crying " Wolf!" carries with it the burden of proof, if one says that there is something to observe based on science he has to provide the science to be observed. I suppose by this time the profits are such that LeFrque could pay for an independent test carried out from independent scientists and an internationally recognized institute of learning. Pick any!

These are NOT tests! The lefreque appears to be a method to turn any metal into gold (the money that you pay for it).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lefreque+test
 
#507 ·
I don't believe... the revolutionary "money in trash" metal piece for better sound....

These are NOT tests! The lefreque appears to be a method to turn any metal into gold (the money that you pay for it).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lefreque+test
I search and found this video:

For me sound is better without LefreQue in this test... LefreQue! Destroy your sound! I'll never buy crap like that!
 
#508 ·
#509 ·
As this has now been resurrected from it's sad and doomy graveyard, I might as well post a link to my blindfold test.

https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-sound-enhancing-products

I have removed the answers from the page so you can have fun guessing which is which. In case anyone remembers the previous answers, the clips are now in a different.

This is not a triple blind test, I was blind, you will be blind listening, but the person affixing the leFreque and handing it to me did know. However I can assure you there was no way I could have picked up on any subtle clues while being handed the horn.

The owner did poopoo this test, blaming my microphone. All I can say is you don't pay £3,500 for a microphone (not to mention large sums on the best studio acoustics consultant in the country) only to find it the microphone and your live room isn't up to the job of recording what is supposed to be an audible difference.
 
#520 ·
The owner did poopoo this test, blaming my microphone. All I can say is you don't pay £3,500 for a microphone (not to mention large sums on the best studio acoustics consultant in the country) only to find it the microphone and your live room isn't up to the job of recording what is supposed to be an audible difference.
Wow, very impressive -- yet still not sensitive enough to capture the subtle effects of the LeFreque, which are audible only to the most exquisitely calibrated human ears, apparently.

I'm not expecting that Mr. fireflute will be back for follow-up conversation. Given that he's still stuck on 1 post in total, I assume he found nothing else worth commenting on in the vast library of SOTW threads.
 
#510 ·
I can imagine how the (unproven) theory arose.From the elefreque site:

"Cork is a material that does not pass on sound. You can use it to fit a mouth piece on to the instrument but at the same time, the properties of cork are such that it does not transmit the required sound to the instrument, it actually mutes sound.
lefreQue solves this problems."

OK, so anyone not familar with acoustics may think that sounds reasonable, especially as they don't know that a woodwind relies on air vibrating, not the structure, walls or soundboard resonating as they would with a violin, piano or gong.

Oooh, you might say, the cork obviously dampens the sound. If we bridge it with metal, it will no doubt sound better.

Seems a fair speculation for the layperson?

But then you think, "hang on a mo, how much cork is there in the joint between a flute head and body?"

None: it's a lovely snug fit of precious metal to precious metal. So what does the leFreque do?

"Well," you might say, "the theory doesn't matter if it actually works, and I think it does. It had better work having paid £180 for it"

Fair enough, if it makes your playing sound better due to placebo, then all is well - a postive result.

In which case why the initial pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo about cork hampering the passing of the sound?

At least there is no hampering of the material that is being passed by our bovine friends.
 
#511 ·
Pete, your test is, to date, the only ever attempt to put any order in this chaos.

Instead of surrounding themselves with yes-people ( some of whom have been shilling here on their behalf) , the makers of any such gizmos ( therefore NOT only the LeFreque) should welcome and embrace a more skeptical attitude towards things like this.

Testing in an independent way and following strict scientific methods is the ONLY way to separate fallacious and umproven impressions from facts.

But of course, if we want to stay confined within the realm of opinions, impression, assumptions, instead of experimentally verifiable and repeatable experiences, then the claim of “ more emotion” is the only proper way to push this stuff on the market.

Wind and brass instruments are not bells or cymbals ( where a piece of cork would dampen the vibration of the sound producing element) and indeed, if you hit a saxophone with a mallet it sounds “ clunk” .

As I wrote many times. If we have a triangle, to stop it from making any sound you touch it.

How about remembering that, even if there were any vibrations, we hold the saxophone in our hands and the mouthpiece in our mouth?
 
#514 ·
More scientific theory:

From a sound quality perspective, the tube of your wind instrument would ideally consist of one piece. For practical reasons however (tuning, transport, technical constraints), wind instruments - as we use them today - consist of different sections.
LefreQue is a revolutionary sound bridge that acoustically connects the sections of your wind instrument, combining the benefits of both.


So my question is, does a leFreque somehow solve this deficency and make the three sections of a flute one solid section?

Nope.
 
#515 ·
Certainly NOT!

Indeed, even if it would carry out vibrations not dampened from the hands and the lips, still the amplitude of these vibration is absolutely insignificant to the sound.

Anyone convinced of the contrary is welcome to put his theory to the (serious) test.

If you don’t bother testing why should I bother listening?

Testing as in the videos mentioned above is a joke, it is not a test.
 
#521 ·
The LefreQue gizmo looks like it might be an infringement of the FlemTone patent for our Acoustic Viaduct.

Abstract: Musical instrument having a hollow resonator, and a casing, wherein the resonator comprises a first part, a second part, a third part, etc., with a coupling between the first part and the second part, and the second part and the third part, etc., the coupling(s) being bounded by one or more transitional edge(s) between the first part, the second part, the third part, blah, blah, blah, wherein the instrument is provided with an acoustic viaduct spaced from the transition edge and one or more of the player's wallet or bank accounts for arranging a monetary viaduct under clamping force in abutting contact above and beyond the call of duty onto the exterior of the resonator, wherein at a first outer end part builds strong bodies 12 ways in the second part of the acoustic viaduct is provided with a first contact member which is arranged under clamping force in abutting contact onto the first part of the second part of the resonator to resonate and deliver upon wherein therefore at a second outer end the acoustic viaduct is provided with a plop, plop, fizz, fizz second contact member arranged under clamping force in abutting contact onto the second part of the resonator. Amen.
Type: Patent grant
Filed: February 30, 2001
Publication date: October 31, 2002
Applicant: FlemTone International
Inventors: Marcus Flamingo, P.T. Barnum

The FlemTone Acoustic Viaduct is available for $19.95 (monthly payments), plus shipping and handling. How much is the fake one?

Mark
 
#522 ·
I think the Flemtone may be infringing on my copyrighted nutritional dietary supplement FlimFlam™ which contains 7 herbs and spices and has been shown in numerous published research articles to improve the sound of your instrument, increase your potency, and support your immune system. I'll send it to you risk-free if you send me $199.95 for shipping and handling. Comes in regular or extra crispy.
 
#523 ·
I have tried the lefreque on saxophone, clarinet and flute and it works. that was surprising to me too.....i am usually very skeptical. of course it won't save you hours of tones and scales and the intonation gets only slightly better.

the effects are more pronounced on flute. the sound is more focus and the third octave easier to hit.
the effects are also very clear on clarinet, where you gain fluidity and projection.
on saxophone the effects are less audible but still there.

i suggest you try it. maybe it works for you maybe not, but there are quite some top players who are using it, like the first flutist of the concertgebouw orchestra in amsterdam (that is not somebody you can fool easily)
 
#524 ·
but there are quite some top players who are using it, like the first flutist of the concertgebouw orchestra in amsterdam (that is not somebody you can fool easily)
This isn't really about people being fooled, but then do you personally know the first flutist of the concertgebouw orchestra in amsterdam? Even if it was to do with being fooled, musical talent s not really related to gullibility and/or lack of.

Same applies to sports stars, supposedly Serena Williams needs to be wearing dirty socks to win.
 
#525 ·
It is true that there are a lot of things in this world that we do not understand.

However, wishful thinking is not one of those --- it is very well understood.

Moreover, its power should not be discounted or sold short.

If something works, then it works. But that does not mean that (objectively) it does anything.

Double blind or never mind. (But I wear my lucky undies when the chips are down!)
 
#535 ·
"thinking (as in rational analysis ...)"

Yep. That is the crux of it. An awful lot of thinking is motivated by desire and irrationality. Bad thinking and jumbled thinking and delusional thinking is still thinking. I do not consider these factors as contradictory to thought so much as extremely common dilutants of reliable thought. Certainly these defects are common in my own thinking, often not recognized without hindsight.

Sorry if I was a stick in the mud to spoil your joke.
 
#536 ·
I am late to this party and I am certainly not going to read all 27 pages. However, there is a point that needs to be made in discussions having to do with any type of apparatus that is attached to the outside of a woodwind that is supposed to alter the sound. Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

- Walls of woodwind instruments vibrate. We can feel the vibrations through our fingertips.
- Hence we may be aware when these vibrations differ from what we are used to feeling.
- The latest acoustic science has shown that in order for wall vibrations to affect the soundwaves inside, the walls must be extremely thin (.2mm) and slightly oval.

This begs the question "By what mechanism does the apparatus attached to the outer wall of a woodwind affect the soundwaves inside that travel to the listener's ears"?
 
#537 ·
This begs the question "By what mechanism does the apparatus attached to the outer wall of a woodwind affect the soundwaves inside that travel to the listener's ears"?
The mouthpiece is attached to the outer wall and affects the soundwaves inside. But I take your point. The mouthpiece and reed produce the soundwaves.

The question is still valid. If attaching an object that does not make any sound of its own to the outside of the horn affects the sounds inside the horn, then we need to do an infinite number of experiments attaching various objects of different sizes and materials to all places on the horn. If this actually affects the sound, then we need to find the best material and size and type of object and the best placement. We have our work cut out for us. I'm gigging tonight so I'll get on this later.
 
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