Chronic Rail Leakage

[crice4]

I am a saxophonist in college and I play bari in our wind ensemble. On my S-80 C*, and other mouthpieces I have tried, I encounter a problem with air leaking from the rail past where the facing ends. The reed should be firmly attached to the rail from ligature pressure, but somehow a very noticeable stream of air comes out, making playing with any good qualities nearly impossible.

The really odd thing is that it only happens intermittently. Over the past few years, this problem has plagued me off and on, usually happening toward the end of the semester when my tone is becoming the most refined. I can temporarily "fix" the problem by (gross, I know) allowing spit to enter the mouthpiece.

When I examine the mouthpiece, the table seems to be very flat and the rails are symmetrical. However, the mouthpiece will not pass the vacuum test (seal the open end against your hand and suck the air out through the tip opening with the reed assembled; it passes if it will hold closed for a second). I've never had a bari mouthpiece pass this test, though I know it must be possible.

Any input will be greatly appreciated, as this problem is driving me absolutely bananas -- and probably the other very polite members of this ensemble as well.

[DJ Mix]

Have you tried this with a synthetic reed? If a cane reed warps during use(which it inevitably will) it could "peel" away from the mouthpiece creating a leak, which might be the reason for it happening intermittently. A synthetic reed would not warp during use. I'm not necessarily suggesting that you switch to synthetics, but it would indicate where the problem is or isn't.

I would run a test by playing a synthetic reed, seeing first if it passes the vacuum/suction test, then playing it for 10 or 15 minutes (or maybe more), then suction/vacuum test again.

I have serious warping problems with bigger reeds (i.e. bas clar, bari sax, & sometimes tenor sax) because they have a much higher ratio of surface area to total volume of wood, which allows for more moisture coming and/or going.
Therefore I never use cane reeds anymore on bari sax. I use a Legere and it's fantastic. I've used the same one for about 6 months.

Also,

I love Selmer mouthpieces, and I play on old Soloists on several horns,
but recently I tried playing an alto S-80 C* and it wouldn't play....at all...with many different reed strengths and two different players and two different horns. I'm not suggesting that they all suck, but if this happened to me, it might indicate that quality control might not be very good lately. Maybe yours has some defects. If a synthetic reed won't seal, that might be the answer.

A rail only has to be off by a few thousandths to fail a vacuum test or to allow for reed leakage. This might not be visible to the naked eye.

Does anyone else have any suggestions, or problems with mine?

[MojoBari]

You could also try sanding the reed flat after it gets wet and possibly warped.

It is probably a problem due to a couple of sources. The mouthpiece table is probably not as flat as it could be and the facing may be crooked.

[bari_sax_diva]

This happens to me on alto, and I wish I could figure out why. Reeds do well when new, but they seem to "blow out" like this after one or two sessions and they become unplayable.

One thing I've noticed is that if I drop one of these reeds on a flat surface, there's a noticeable warp from the end to the tip (in the same direction as the curvature of the tip). I don't know what I do to make this happen, but it's driving me up a *#$&%! wall as it gets expensive to go through reeds like this, and I just can't seem to make synthetic reeds work on alto.

BTW, the mouthpiece has been refaced by one of the best guys in the business, and it still happens.

[crice4]

Thanks! Great advice. I shall try a synthetic reed, as I do believe that it is from warping like you said.

[seattlebari]

I've read the replies and agree with everyone. MojoBari may be on to it in my experience. Even a variance of a thousandth of an inch or so, not visible to the eye, could well be the culprit, in which case, it needs to go to an expert refacer. As others have stated, I have found trying synthetics like Legeres and Hahns, can also be helpful, if not solving the issue, versus cane reeds. Legeres are exceptional. Hope it helps. Lotsa experts here.

[Sigmund451]

If Mojo is right and I would put money on being both unflat and crooked then the synthetic reed will likely make the problem worse They are even less resilient than cane and will be more unwilling to conform to the disconformed pieces....disconformed...is that a word ;)

[drakesaxprof]

On my S-80 C*, and other mouthpieces I have tried, I encounter a problem with air leaking from the rail past where the facing ends.
To me, this suggests pretty strongly that the issue is the reed, rather than the mouthpiece. That, and the fact that the issue appear to worsen over time. As it's unlikely that the mouthpiece is changing shape during a given practice session, performance, or rehearsal, the culprit is almost certainly the reed. Cane bari reeds must be moisture stabilized--try keeping them in a ziploc or tupperware with a hygrometer. Check to maintain 50-60% humidity. If that works for you, check out the Vandoren Hygrocase. It's working well for all of my reeds, including bari.

Good luck.

[dirvin]

Here is a post that I made in a similar thread that may apply to this issue..




I've had a similar issue for many years (on tenor only ???) and on many different mouthpieces. For me, it all focused on reed prep. The problem that I had, was that the reed would swell after about 5 mins of playing. The reed would pull away from the table and no longer seal.

The solution (for me) was to play a new reed for 5 min, which would allow the reed to warp. Then I would flaten the back with a reed knife and put the reed in a reed holder. The next day I would repeat playing for 10 min, then 15, etc... At this point, when the reed is dry, it is actually a bit concave on the back, so that when it swells, it returns to the flat state.

There is a great book on reed prep from Ray Reed that documents this effect. It's call the advanced art of adjusting single reeds. It goes a bit off the deep end regarding reed adjustments. I don't nearly as far into as he does.


Now..... all that said...

I recently switched to a Jody Jazz DV and I don't have the problem anymore. I believe that his open table/window design allows the reed to swell into this window area and not push upwards and leak. There were other reasons for the switch, but this was a very nice side benefit.
Good luck...

Dwayne

[hgrail]

Sounds too simple - but have you tried different ligs?

Are they on firmly?

An out of shape lig - or bad fit to the mpc can cause problems - and is fairly cheap to fix.

[BASS SAXMAN]

I switched to Legere reeds almost four years ago. Maintenance free, long reed life, reed consistency and no warping! :occasion: