No kidding--a strap changed my sound!

[superbaguy]

Last night I got an early Christmas gift in the form of a Cebulla strap. http://www.musicmedic.com/catalog/products/strp-100.html

I wanted it for the increase in comfort I expected over my Planet Waves strap. In terms of the comfort factor, it is excellent. What astonished me is that after a few minutes I began to wonder if my reed was just behaving differently because of the weather or if this strap had somehow altered my sound. I then began switching back and forth between my Planet Waves and Cebulla strap--even making sure the length was set exactly the same. Over and over again, I could hear a difference. Better or worse? I wasn't sure. But first I wanted to make double sure I wasn't crazy that there was a difference. So when my wife came home, I played for her with each and she said "It's not night-and-day, but yeah, there's a difference."

Her opinion was the Planet Waves strap had richer sound whereas the Cebulla was more clear/bell-tone like. I agreed with that, but from my side of the bell, it seemed to be the case that notes came out rounder and a little less focused with the Cebulla. We disagree on which sound we prefer, however. I guess the next step is to record each sound and sit back and listen.

I'm not making the case that the strap itself has directly changed my sound, but indirectly somehow it is prompting me to play differently. I keep thinking the position of the mouthpiece coming into my mouthpiece must be different, and I still think that must be the case. I'll take a look in the mirror or take some photos to see what's going on if I get time. Having the straps at the same length with the vast difference in padding on each probably does yield a slightly different position.

[Nefertiti]

You may be on to something here. I hear a huge difference also when I wear boxers as opposed to briefs. When I wear boxers my sound is looser, more free, flexible. When I wear briefs the sound is more constrained and focused. Less flexible. If I'm doing a gig where I have to cut through the mix and be heard I always go with briefs. For a laid back jazz gig I always go with boxers. Before you guys all make fun of me try it for yourselves..........

[tenor71363]

I'm hip.

[Dog Pants]

Neff,

Are you implying that Ornette went commando his whole career?

[Nefertiti]

Neff,

Are you implying that Ornette went commando his whole career?

I don't know for certain but if I had to guess I would say "Yes".

[daigle65]

If I wear black, my tone is dark.
If I wear light colors, my tone is brighter.

[brassnaked]

Was it lacquered or unlacquered?

[DixieSax]

If you tie the old strap around the neck really tightly, it will also change your sound. :D

[A Greene]

I know a lot of guys are kidding BUT I do think neck straps CAN play into tone and other related issues. Particularly with beginners - most kids can't manage the new straps to learn to play with the horn Hangin' Low. I personally can't play with the ultra Padded Bouncy style straps that all the MS and HS kids use.

So is a strap is the solution then you just save TONS of money on vintage horns and mouthpieces. :D

[yellow_v_max]

Rather than be cash-strapped after buying many saxophones, this alternative really looks interesting.

I can imagine that a Neotech thick padded strap, with elastic support will allow you to approach the intervallic concept of improvisation easily (besides the fat robust sound?), and the Dejacques string strap will allow you to string your lines better and get you a more focused tone?

If it works, why not? :D

[Agent27]

I know a lot of guys are kidding BUT I do think neck straps CAN play into tone and other related issues. Particularly with beginners - most kids can't manage the new straps to learn to play with the horn Hangin' Low. I personally can't play with the ultra Padded Bouncy style straps that all the MS and HS kids use.

So is a strap is the solution then you just save TONS of money on vintage horns and mouthpieces. :D

I can't play with a bouncy strap because I will inevitably push the horn lower which will result in a worse tone.

I'm personally waiting on a strap with a 24K gold plated hook. That should do wonders for my tone.

[Thomas Gavin]

You may be on to something here...I notice my sound is different depending on the shoes I wear. A soft-soled shoe elicits a somewhat muffled, Getz-like tone. Conversely, when I throw on my leather-bottomed wing tips, it's a more open, focused sound.

I do think straps can have a freeing quality, however. I recall during my high school sports playing days, that I could run faster and jump higher depending on the jock strap I wore.

[jbtsax]

The only possible difference a neck strap could make would be to place the mouthpiece at a slightly different angle in the mouth. Even a small change alters the direction the airstream goes into the mouthpiece, the position of the bottom lip on the reed, and the angle of the jaw and bottom teeth---not to mention the opening in the throat.

If both straps looked to be the same length during the test, my guess is that when the weight of the saxophone while playing was applied, one strap stretched more than the other.


John

[cjmdsax]

There was an article I read once that said your posture while you play will affect your sound. I think this gets into what jbtsax said, but went farther than just head position and mentioned arm position and how you stand.

To me most of this is pretty subtle but I don't doubt that some people notice the effects of these things more than other people.

[BIG B Convert]

Once I got rid of those clip-on' ties and used real ones... also started to use suspenders which helped keep my shoulders down....Man! My throat just relaxed and opened up my sound.

No clip's and wear suspenders. That's the ticket.

[StanVI]

I'm not sure this would change my sound, I like the idea of relieving pressure on the neck.....for someone trying to avoid neck surgery (too many years of football) this could be very worthwhile....8-)

ps as for the brief/boxer controversy, briefs are far better for altissimo...

[nachoman]

Was it lacquered or unlacquered?
What, the briefs??? !!!!

[DanPerezSax]

I'm not making the case that the strap itself has directly changed my sound, but indirectly somehow it is prompting me to play differently. I keep thinking the position of the mouthpiece coming into my mouthpiece must be different, and I still think that must be the case. I'll take a look in the mirror or take some photos to see what's going on if I get time. Having the straps at the same length with the vast difference in padding on each probably does yield a slightly different position.
Naturally I first looked at your post with the same skeptical eye as most others here, but I think this is absolutely possible. Even the thought that the strap SHOULD make you more comfortable will make you play differently. Suggestion is a wonderful thing. In fact, I make it work for me! If I'm having a crummy day on the horn, I often close my eyes and remember how it felt to get each upgrade, from the horn, to the mouthpiece, neckstrap, lig, etc. I convince myself that I have a killer setup, and lo and behold, about 50% of the time (when the problem is ME, as opposed to a bona fide crappy reed, etc.) it makes a drastic difference in my playing.

I'd also say that playing angle has a tremendous effect on my tone and responsiveness. Perhaps you wear the new strap lower or higher than the old one. It makes a difference. As A Greene said, it's very hard for young kids to play properly because most neckstraps don't get short enough for them. When my students get one that works right, they play better in short order.

As for the bloodflow, etc... I think that's a load of BS. The points of contact between your neck and that strap seem to be about where you want your arm to squeeze for the ole' "sleeper hold," dubbed the "rear, naked choke" more recently. Nice looking strap, though, if you've got the dosh.

[Bill Bryant]

A strap will change your sound dramatically if it breaks while you're playing. Don't take my word for it; try it yourself. I'm talking about night and day.

[SuperAction80]

The only possible difference a neck strap could make would be to place the mouthpiece at a slightly different angle in the mouth. Even a small change alters the direction the airstream goes into the mouthpiece, the position of the bottom lip on the reed, and the angle of the jaw and bottom teeth---not to mention the opening in the throat.

If both straps looked to be the same length during the test, my guess is that when the weight of the saxophone while playing was applied, one strap stretched more than the other.


John

Bingo!

Throughout my school years I religiously used the same equipment, including the neck strap, but excluding reeds.:) Sometime in middle school, my neck strap, similar to the Hyman design with a cruder metal hook, broke. The stitching that held the strap together ripped off. My director fixed the strap with some heavy duty staples, and all was well. I could no longer adjust the strap, but it was in a position that was comfortable to me.

Flash forward several years, I'm considerably larger and am still on the same strap. For some reason though, my tone was below average. Unfortunately, since I did not take lessons, and the HS director was a trumpet player, nobody was able to truly tell me what my problem was. It wasn't until my sophomore year that a freshman sax phenom pointed out that I held the horn at a weird angle. Then the light went off in my head, and I realized that my non-adjustable neck strap was hindering my progress. Duuuuuuuuuuh.:shock: So I picked up a new strap, threw the old one out, and my tone quality improved drastically almost right off the bat.

So yes...as embarrassed as I am to admit it, I know for a fact that a neckstrap can change your sound.

I'm also a firm believer in getting a good teacher whenever you are learning an instrument. It prevents stupid things like this from happening.;)

[hakukani]

...but it's not the neckstrap per se that changes the sound. It's a different posture, mouthpiece and such.


I find that if I wear my fish shirts, my sound is wetter. If I wear my volcano shirt, it's a much hotter sound. In any case, all my aloha shirts make for a a colorful sound.:D:D

[JL]

Leaving the sound issue aside for the moment, does the Cebulla strap slip as easily as the Planet Waves? I really like my Planet Waves strap, but I'm constantly adjusting it because it tends to slip slightly. I've gotten used to making the adjustments, but would prefer to not have to deal with it.

[superbaguy]

I've always worn the "athletic briefs" which are hybrid boxer/brief deal as I prefer to sound supported. I'm certain the difference with the neck strap (and I do think it is important to specific neck considering the direction this conversation went) is the angle of the mouthpiece.

Set to the same length, the really firm padding in the new strap vs. the Planet Waves strap appears to result in a slightly shorter arrangement thereby making the mouthpiece slightly more parallel to the ground. Incidentally, I love how the strap length adjustment works so you can set it and forget it. It appears Oleg uses the same design.

Someone mentioned shoes--anyone play their horn wearing Earth Shoes with the negative heel placement? I'd never suggest that it helps my sound, but I do feel more comfy playing the tenor in them. I guess it helps counterbalance the tenor's weight. Being a bit underweight maybe that's more important for me than for others, but they're nice well-made shoes regardless.

[JL]

Incidentally, I love how the strap length adjustment works so you can set it and forget it. It appears Oleg uses the same design..

I guess this answers my question, but I want to be sure. You are saying the Cebulla strap adjustment does NOT slip like the Planet Waves one does?

[rbur]

no slipping!

[DXCamp]

Awestome. Not hearing that screeching noise makes all the difference.

[Carl H.]

FWIW

Years ago I bought a backup R.H. strap with the grey hook for my trusty old white hook strap. Other than the hook color, and age, they were as close to identical as you can get. It never felt right when I was playing the grey hook strap, things squeaked and articulation was a bear, so I threw it in a box where it lay till this past week. I needed a strap and seem to have given away a box full of them except for the old Grey thing. I threw it in the case and went to rehearsal. For some odd reason nothing felt right all night.


I hadn't thought about it till just now and remembered how the strap ended up in a box of stuff I don't use.


Who knows why? It just happened that way.

[MartinMods]

My tone is more metallic and focused when I face North but my air stream has more velocity when facing West.

[Buck Laughlin]

I seem to remember a thread dedicated to the joys of practicing with your shirt off. But I don't recall . . . was a better tone one of the benefits?

Also, how about shaving? Does that help?

Buck

[MartinMusicMan]

Also, how about shaving? Does that help?Depends upon what part you shave.

[Buck Laughlin]

Depends upon what part you shave.

Well, I'm not going to shave my beard unless I'm sure it will help. All other parts are off limits!

[bandmommy]

Waxing seems to do the trick if you're looking for that Screamin' sax sound. ;)

[fballatore]

Only if you're playing while getting waxed. :shock:

[lochness88]

I find that going to the bathroom before a performance gives me a warmer sound.

You probably all wondering what I do in the bathroom.

[jbtsax]

I really miss the old leather "belt buckle" type neck straps they had when I was a student growing up in Wyoming. You found the right hole to put the prong in and you were set. The strap was always exactly the same length, it was well made, and lasted a long time. There is nothing better to give a student consistency in their playing. I finally gave it up when I started playing gigs in college where I had to double on tenor.

John

[IntrestedSax]

If you tie the old strap around the neck really tightly, it will also change your sound. :D

dixie i guess you are reffering to the best sound. The sound of silence

[bandmommy]

^^^

He means the neck of the sax, not the player. ;)

[Buck Laughlin]

^^^

He means the neck of the sax, not the player. ;)

Ya gotta love the P-Lig! Speaking of which, where's Tobias? I'd like to hear his take on this neckstrap/tone issue.

Buck

[DanPerezSax]

My tone is more metallic and focused when I face North but my air stream has more velocity when facing West.
Everybody knows the tone gets harder and more focussed facing North. That's cuz the cold in that direction braces the sound and freezes all the stuffiness right out of it. Your airstream is faster facing West because of the prevailing winds that go East to West all over the world. Your breath just wants to "follow the herd." This is a proven scientific phenomenon. :lol:

[Roger Aldridge]

Many thanks for the link to the Cebulla strap. My old strap has been bothering my neck and I'm thinking the Cebulla will be exactly what I need. Just ordered one.

Roger

[JL]

Many thanks for the link to the Cebulla strap. My old strap has been bothering my neck and I'm thinking the Cebulla will be exactly what I need. Just ordered one.

I want to add my thanks too. Both to superbaguy for posting this and to Curt at Musicmedic for making the straps available. I ordered one too.

I don't want to change my sound, just increase my comfort level.

[kavala]

I mentioned this in a previous thread that was about about supporting the
horn with the right thumb.

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=98454

Neck straps do distort your neck and cut off the air supply.
I take a lot of the weight of my horn on my right thumb.
No, I don't get RSI, nor to I have Carpal Tunnel Syndrom.

I prefer to push the horn free of my body and balanced on my right
thumb with the neck strap providing security and stability.

That way you also get the mpc angle correct and it frees up the diaphragm.

[saxjd]

I can conceive of a strap dampening the horn to some extent as opposed to not using a strap. I have heard that using a metal vs. plastic right hand thumb hook can make a difference. I cannot believe that one strap over another would make a difference unless there was a different degree of elasticity in the strap and then, it would seem to be an insignificant difference.

he only other thing I could think might have an effect is how much of the horn's vibrations are transmitted to the neck from the cord. The variables would seem to be the degree of padding, the elasticity of the cord, and the location where the strap primarily contacts the neck, i.e., how much vibration is transmitted to the spine and then to the ear. This might account for a different perception of the sound to the player. If I recall, touching a tuning fork to your head changes the perception of the sound.

And then again . . .

[BASS SAXMAN]

I get a different sound with my harness, saxrax, or bottom of sax sitting on the floor. I prefer the sound while using my harness.:coffee:

[kavala]

There has been a lot of kidding on this thread, but seriously, I always
notice a difference in sound between playing at night or in the
daytime.

Probably the air has a different density and/or moisture content.

Anyone else notice this difference ??

[PauliePaul]

This is old hat to the more experienced players I'm sure, but fellow beginners take note! My playing took a huge step forward today because of my strap, so to speak.

I switched to tenor from alto about a month and a half ago and was experiencing a lot of frustration with my tone, air support, etc. The last straw was attempting the Ballard-style "tone production exercises, part I" as posted by Phil B in this thread:
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=53228
and finding I couldn't hold a note for much longer than 5 beats at app. 60 bpm. Pitiful! Later that evening I got out my alto and was getting much better results in terms of sound quality and duration.

Today I happened upon this series of mini-seminars from Jerry Bergonzi, this one on posture in particular:
http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.Page?MediaId=254
I noted where he had the horn and the angle at which the mouthpiece met the lips. I looked at my setup in the mirror and even with my strap fully extended (standard padded Neotech) I wasn't getting that; the mouthpiece was angled down a bit.

I grabbed an old chain-style strap I used to use on alto before I got the Neotech, adjusted it to the length necessary to achieve the proper angle, and presto! MAJOR improvement!

Not only was there improvement, but I'm finally able to start using my mpc with the wider tip opening without feeling like I'm going to pass out.

This all should have occurred to me much sooner I suppose (various circumstances have prevented my PT and/or me from being able to meet for a lesson for the last month or so), but I'm glad it eventually did. Now I suppose I'll just order one of the longer Neotechs, since the chain-style stap is pretty uncomfortable. Actually I like the way the chain-style strap locks to the right length, maybe I'll just wrap a sock around the neckstrap part like I used to... ;)

p.s. I wasn't trying to hijack this thread, it looked like the original discussion had concluded and this fit the subject and title, so I decided against starting a new thread.