Open vs Narrow Tip

[Milty]

Right now i am playing on a .8 opening ria and its the only thing ive been playing. Im thinking about switching to an open 8 otto link and just want to know:
What will the tone difference be from the tip difference?
What strength reeds will work well on an open link?
Will it be harder to control the sound on the link?
Will it be easier/harder to get out notes at either end of the spectrum?
And last, will i squeak more?

[heath]

I'd go with a more closed tip on a metal Link. Since a Link only has a very tiny roll over baffle and a round chamber it will have more resistance. You should try out a 6 STM Link. You might find that is plenty of tip to handle.

The metal Link will be tougher to get the altissimo, thus the smaller tip will decrease the chamber size and speed up the air, making it easier to get the high notes. Also the smaller tip will focus your sound and actually make it easier to get the bottom end as well. For me smaller tips in metal Links are were it's at.

I use a 5* STM, but have pretty much all the tip sizes in metal links all the way up to a 9* and down to a 5.

[bruce bailey]

I agree. I used a 5* for years and the most open tip I had was a 6*. Rather than thinking tip numbers or letters, it is best to use measurements for reference. A Link 5* would be about .085", a 6 at .090: and a 6* would be about .095". There are comparison charts all over the internet to download and you can do a search here at SOTW for one. Generally the more open, the softer reed you would use but as mentioned, the baffle, chamber size, facing length can make in an unexact science.

[hakukani]

Shoot, my alto piece has a .090 opening.

I can't get the tenor sound I want with a hard reed/close tip.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend an open tip unless you've been playing awhile, and have a well developed embouchure.

[Agent27]

Well Hak, my alto tip is .90 but my tenor is only .100 and it suits me just fine.

[hakukani]

Well, I will say that my bari piece is less open than my tenor piece. I think it has to do with the size of the interior of your face, tongue, nasal passages, throat. It may have to do with how muscles age.

These days, I'm all for trying a bunch of things out, and seeing what works.

I've had a 7* STM for several years. Every time I put it on and play it, I think how thin and bright it sounds

[heath]

But a 5* really isn't that closed.

Everyone has their own size, but for me I look at guys like Trane and even Garbarek. I think Garbarek is known to play .85-.90 tips on his tenor pieces and that guy has all the volume one could want. Same with Trane a 6 STM and he could still play with Elvin.

For me there's certain things that can be executed much faster with a smaller tip. I like the sound of larger tips, but after awhile I find I'm limited as to what I can do. And sound wise I really dig the focus of the more modest tips.

[hakukani]

I never thought of executing things faster. I didn't know tip size was a limiting factor.

I still have an MC Gregory 4A 18 tenor piece. Not much for jazz, and I really can't 'execute' anything differently with it. It's really kind of stuffy sounding.

I've found that large tips can really suck if you're the kind of player that only takes a small amount of beak. Truthfully, I think that's why Christlieb and Watts get the sound they do from a large tip, they take in a lot of beak.

People tend to try to control the tip opening with their jaw. You gotta get beyond that. If you close off a .125 to a .095, you might as well play the .095. It's much easier.

Re: Garbarek. I think he does what he does. He has a really unusual sound and unusual embouchure. I've never heard him live, without amplification, so I can't speak on volume.


I really work for a flexible sound that can go from one place to another. I mean, I'm never going to have stellar chops, so I really work my sound.

[Alon Wolman Sax]

I play .75 on my metal alto piece and .85 on my plastic Runyon... I find metal pieces take more power to control so it's better with a moderate tip.

[heath]

The thing I wanted to get away from was the macho thing about playing larger tips. I grew up with that mind set, my hero's all played larger tips, many of them still play 10 or even bigger.

In some ways you could compare it to wanting to wear their shoes or even jock straps. What fits those guys may not fit me.

I don't know if playing a smaller tip is necessarily easier to blow, in the sense that I would normally use a 4 reed with these tips. It seems to me the resistance is about right. For me it's more the fit, how the beaks fits in my mouth and how long it takes for the reed to cycle though opening and closing.

I wonder if when Trane cut that ballads album when he had his mouthpiece worked on and basically ruined for him, if he had a smaller tip opened up. He had mentioned their was a certain fast thing he couldn't do any longer once it was worked on.

[bari_sax_diva]

Well, I will say that my bari piece is less open than my tenor piece. I think it has to do with the size of the interior of your face, tongue, nasal passages, throat. It may have to do with how muscles age.


Same thing here, so I'd guess it has more to do with the acoustics of the sax. I use Bergs on both horns... a .110 on baritone and a .130 on tenor. And the tenor MP is actually a pretty easy blow (as long as I have a halfway-decent reed).

[nitrosax]

I'm starting to understand this idea...what did it for me was Walt Weiskopf's Vincent recording on youtube or his own site...Walt uses a link Stm 5*...thats quite small compared to what I thought most pro's used...but I can see how it would focus the sound more...I only think this works on the open chamber pieces though...small tips work well with the big chamber and vice versa...I think hakuhani is right about how MUCH mouthpiece you take as well...Ernie watts swallows the thing thus he can handle a huge tip...but someone like benny golson( plays like a 10 somehting...you can HEAR that it's too big for him most of the time...) benny golson just needs 1 half strength softer reed...man he would sound like 10 million dollars instead of 1....

R

[heath]

I'm starting to understand this idea...what did it for me was Walt Weiskopf's Vincent recording on youtube or his own site...Walt uses a link Stm 5*...thats quite small compared to what I thought most pro's used...R


http://www.waltweiskopf.com/

At about the 2.50 minute mark if that's a small tipped link, that's the sound I was referring to in my earlier posts. I'd say that if he's playing a 5* that should pretty much put the small tip argument to rest once and for all.

To use another analogy. I'm a cyclist and in the past because I'm 6'2" I've tried out long crank arms to get more power and torque. The problem is that over a given distance say 60 miles I noticed my speed actually went down and at some point my form completely fell apart. The problem was solved when I put the macho crap aside and moved to a smaller crank and actually found my average speed went up, my ability to keep my form during maxiumum output improved drastically.

Same thing with the mouthpiece. I put the macho crap aside once and for all and stuck with the smaller tip. My sound and execution felt more locked in. The horn felt more like a natural extension of myself.

[Leon]

My main piece is a Link Tonemaster (tenor) that was refaced by Eric Greffinger to a 105. I notice that when I close the tip slightly by artificial means it really comes alive. There seems to be no sacrifice in the largeness of tone, the bottom stays lush and the high end is much easier. I wonder if this retention of big tone despite closing the tip is because of the large chamber? For example, I have a no usa stm 6* (095 Ralph Morgan) that doesn't give me the volume and mass I get from the Tonemaster when the tip is closed on the Tonemaster.

My 6* is a great piece but I don't like hard reeds - you guys that play tips in the 095 range - do all of you play #4 strenght reeds like Heath does? I would love to be able to get this piece to produce the fat tone my 105 does.

[heath]

Leon I've had an STM that was refaced to .095 and it played like crap, it sounded dead no matter what reed I used on it. I actually had it refaced by Keith Bradbury because it didn't have any horsepower, then I sent it off to Brian Powell and had him work on it, same thing it still had nothing, Brian Powell said he couldn't figure out why that piece sounded off.

All of my current STM's I played before I bought them. They all sound good and none of them need a reface. I'm not having a problem with volume when it comes to the 5* or even 5. There are guys on this forum that use a 4* and I'm sure it works just fine for them.

Your Tonemaster is probably the perfect piece for you, regardless of tip size. So I'd stick with it.

[Leon]

Heath, actually this 6* plays like a dream and that's why I regret that I am unable to utilize it; it plays so easily, and with such clarity. It was refaced by Ralph Morgan, Brian Powell saw it and said it's a great example of Morgan's work. My thing is, I just don't like playing on a hard reed. Is it necessary, in your opinion, or anyone else's who uses a Link with a tip opening in this range (095) to use a hard reed? I notice you use a #4. #3 is about as hard as I like to go.

[Nefertiti]

My main piece is a Link Tonemaster (tenor) that was refaced by Eric Greffinger to a 105. I notice that when I close the tip slightly by artificial means it really comes alive. There seems to be no sacrifice in the largeness of tone, the bottom stays lush and the high end is much easier. I wonder if this retention of big tone despite closing the tip is because of the large chamber? For example, I have a no usa stm 6* (095 Ralph Morgan) that doesn't give me the volume and mass I get from the Tonemaster when the tip is closed on the Tonemaster.

My 6* is a great piece but I don't like hard reeds - you guys that play tips in the 095 range - do all of you play #4 strenght reeds like Heath does? I would love to be able to get this piece to produce the fat tone my 105 does.

Leon,
How do you close a tip by artificial means? Are you just biting to get the reed closer to the tip? Maybe you should have Eric close it down to .100?

[Leon]

Leon,
How do you close a tip by artificial means? Are you just biting to get the reed closer to the tip? Maybe you should have Eric close it down to .100?

Steve, I do this by inserting a small wedge (for example, a piece of torn matchbook cover or the tip of a soprano reed) underneath the but end of the reed that is held to the table of the mouthpiece by a Rovner. The funny thing is, the 105 Tonemaster plays better when its closed slightly, but the STM 95 plays better opened (by using the exact opposite technique -placing the wedge on top of the reed between the ligature and butt end of the mouthpiece). That's why I wondered if open chambers played better with a slightly smaller tip (assuming the chamber of a Tonemaster is larger than that of a stm).

[cjmdsax]

http://www.waltweiskopf.com/

At about the 2.50 minute mark if that's a small tipped link, that's the sound I was referring to in my earlier posts. I'd say that if he's playing a 5* that should pretty much put the small tip argument to rest once and for all.


I don't have all the Link tip sizes in my arsenal but I have an STM 9* I've played a lot and I've tried some others. To me Walt does sound like he's playing a small tipped Link. The depth of a large tip isn't there, it's more focused. It's a great sound he's getting.

I've been through the large tip thing on both alto and tenor. I don't play alto much any more. This year on tenor I've gone down significantly in tip size. I've got a 7* DV and a 7* Tone Edge I'm using most right now.



For me there's certain things that can be executed much faster with a smaller tip. I like the sound of larger tips, but after awhile I find I'm limited as to what I can do. And sound wise I really dig the focus of the more modest tips.

For me what helps execution is not needing to pay as much attention to how I play the mouthpiece and concentrating more on what I'm playing. With the larger tips I'm more distracted by getting the embouchure right so I don't get tired too quickly. My 9* Link STM is the only large tipped mpc I've had where that hasn't been true. I can play that one quite a while and it feels fine. As far as sound there is more focus with smaller tips and I think it's personal preference as far as that goes. One of the things that kept me on large tips was the depth and breadth of sound.

[tigerplayer]

Everyone is different. I play a 10* link with a relatively soft reed. It's not a macho thing, it feels right to me. My hero John Coltrane played a 5 or 6*. Those don't work well for me.

[bruce bailey]

My theory on how open is too open is to play a mouthpiece softly down to low Bb without subtoning. If you can't play softly, it is too open.

[nitrosax]

After listening to Walt--that made me want to try a STM NY piece in a 5*, 6 or 6* tip...the combo of bigger chamber with smaller tip could be very interesting...
THe only thing is it's hard to play with amplified instruments on a link...unless of course you are mic ed effectively....

Walt reminds me of coltrane on his famous ballads album....

[hakukani]

I played on small tipped mouthpieces for many, many years, until I heard James Moody and Ernie Watts. I found out they were playing large tips on tenor, so I decided to try them out.

[BobD]

I tried playing a HR Link 7 and I couldn't play it in tune very easily. I tried a HR Berg 110/1 and it plays much better in tune for me. Also, it's the funnest mpc I've ever played. I find the bigger tip gives me more flexibility and an ability to manage the tuning better. I've tried other smaller pieces in the past and found them either stuffy or dead sounding. I guess having played a metal Berg 120/1 m in jr. high thru high school has predisposed me to larger tips. At least larger tips with some baffle.

[Alucard Nosferatu]

I play on an New York Super Tone Master Otto Link 9, and I can play really soft with a 4 Vandoren...
Maybe its all on your air-support?
I guess I play on this setup because I like being loud, and currently am just trying to find the right setup.
I also have a Herbert Couf 7, and that plays really well too.. To each their own?

[jbwalton]

i agree with tigerplayer - i play a 10* jody jazz, and it sings. i played a V16 metal for six years, T77 opening, and then when i tried a larger hard rubber mouthpiece the sound just got bigger, there's no other way to say it. i wouldn't rule out large tip openings until you've really sat down and tried shedding some stuff on them. you might be surprised at the size of your sound through a larger hard rubber piece.

[Honeyboy]

I have both a 5* NY Link and a 130/2 Berg (actual measurement is .126) and the Berg has less resistance, plays easier , is louder and is more expressive.The 5*Link has a thinner sound than my 7* NY Link. However, if I play the 5* long enough, I end up getting my usual sound.It is more effort at this stage to try to get a good sound out of the smaller Link, most likely because I don't play it too much.

[Tenortones]

I play on a HR*7*. I own a 10*-but haven't been able to make that jump to the 10*-and not sure if it's necessary to do so.8-)

[TommyD69]

I played a Selmer LT piece with a #3 reed for years. So switching to an Otto Link NY 5* was a big jump for me. I had to go down to a #2 reed, I just couldn't use the harder reed with what I felt (at that time) was a big tip opening.

I found that trying to play over amplified electric guitars was difficult (even mic'ed) with the 5*, and I felt that the harder I blew, the closer I came to having the reed STOP working all together. So I switched to an Otto Link STM 7* and WOW what a difference in volume, projection, and sound focus. Even my wife (who can't carry a tune in a bucket) noticed!

Since working on my altissimo with the 7*, I have increased my reed strength to (Rico Select Jazz) 3M, and I am really impressed with my BIG sound, top to bottom.

[GAS_Wyo]

I'm at 90 on Alto, 105 on Tenor and 110 on Bari. The RPC 90B alto piece with a 2.5 ZZ really opens up the sound on my Ref 54.

I'm still working on the STM 105 on Tenor. I play at 2.5 ZZ on that piece also...don't really like my sound all that much, but it's really flexible...I'm taming it the more I play.

On Bari I play a med-soft Vandoren on the 110/2M Berg. That piece has a huge, fat sound that I'm also taming at pianissimo, but it's worth it for the fat sound I get.

I guess I share this to give a perspective on 'what's working' for an intermediate player who only plays 2-5 times a week. These combos work for me.

[Jazz House]

I'm at 75 on soprano and 115 on tenor.

Since my soprano setup is harder than the tenor, the tenor is starting to sing and now the soprano is joining it. It's so good. I absolutely love the tone I am getting on both. The tenor has a sort of deep penetrating brightness in all registers yet sounds darker than my teachers STM 6*. My soprano is bright but very sweet sounding and has the singing quality a sop should have.

My only complaint is how reed sensitive the tenor is. In FNQ it's very hard to get the same type, brand and strength reed twice in a row, meaning that it can be frustrating to have to switch. I have gone from 2.5 to 3 to 3.5 to 2.5 to 3. I like the ZZ 3 reeds, I HATE JAVA THEY MAKE ME STUFFY, I DON'T LIKE VANDOREN CLASSICS. I like the V16 reeds but they lack something that the ZZ reeds have. The trouble is that the ZZ reeds tend to be hard to come by. Does anybody around here know where to get a nice cheap big shipping of them from?

Another thing is that when I switch back to my stock mouthpiece (which is actually pretty good) it will take almost any reed and play it well but it can never reach the same tonal quality as the guardala with the ZZ reeds has.

I prefer open mpc.

EDIT: I still prefer an open mouthpiece but it's a different one. My Francois Louis T285SP has everthing the guardala had and even more. Awesome piece. It's at .112 but it's still as good.

[magical pig]

My only complaint is how reed sensitive the tenor is. In FNQ it's very hard to get the same type, brand and strength reed twice in a row, meaning that it can be frustrating to have to switch. I have gone from 2.5 to 3 to 3.5 to 2.5 to 3. I like the ZZ 3 reeds, I HATE JAVA THEY MAKE ME STUFFY, I DON'T LIKE VANDOREN CLASSICS. I like the V16 reeds but they lack something that the ZZ reeds have. The trouble is that the ZZ reeds tend to be hard to come by. Does anybody around here know where to get a nice cheap big shipping of them from?
Have you tried LaVoz? (choice of Sonny Rollins ;) )

I found prowinds.com to be one of the cheapest web retailer AFA reeds are concerned.

Victor.

[Jazz House]

Have you tried LaVoz? (choice of Sonny Rollins ;) )

I found prowinds.com to be one of the cheapest web retailer AFA reeds are concerned.

Victor.

I will try them. I know that brecker used them as well.

[heath]

IMO you get more for your money with RJS than you do with Lavoz. There's more heart material to the RJS reed. Seems the Lavoz reeds don't last as long, they play well, but for me they turn to mush too fast.

[Kyungsoo Hwang]

What is a good reed for Otto Link STM 5* tenor MP?

I am using RSJ 3H... but sometimes it is hard to control, so I sound an octave higher when I try low C, B, Bb...

Do I have to use more stiff one like 4 or 5(!), or do I need more relax, jaw down, open throat, tonguing with fast air stream?
(I usually play Meyer 6M, S80 C* on ALTO as my main though... tenor is doubling for me, is it main problem?)

Btw, Legere 3 had no problem on 5* STM at all, but I want to find another good cane jazz reed for my MP.

[izsquall]

Oh yeah, I have a Beechler Bellite 6 (.90) MPC and I'm planning on buying a HR Link. Does a 6 on the Link (.90) have the same resistance as the Beechler? Or does baffle, large chamber of the link make it quite different from the Beechler even though its the same Tip?

It's because I'm after the same resistance as the Beechler but I don't know which Tip size for the HR link its equivalent to. Any ideas? I'm using Rico #2 orange box on that beechler bdw. :)