Super 20 tenor advice

[TenorReinier]

Just returned from a visit to a local dealer. Tried a '61 Super 20 tenor 372XXX. I was quite impressed. It is in a very good shape, no dents ever and very few scratches. Original lacquer looks great. It has a silver neck, but not a silver bell. It doesn't have pearls on the palm keys, but it does have the sunburst engraving on some of the bell keys (B and Bflat). However, these are to me minor points of interest.

I have some questions.
About the neck: it has the underslung octave key mechanism. It's silver, however on some places you can clearly see lacquer on the neck. Does this mean it not sterling silver? Or did King only made sterling silver necks for de S20? I know the protection parts of the neck are lacquered, could it be that this lacquer left some spots on the rest of the neck? I really don't know.
Also: I forgot to look if it has the double socket mechanism. Was this mechanism still on the Super20's in '61? Does this matter?

About the price: like I sad it is in superb condition and really well setup. The price is $4500 USD. (3500 euros). I guess this is quite ok, isn't it?


I'm really thinking of selling my Selmer Serie III tenor and buying this King. I quite like it. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Saxturtle]

TenorReiner,

That sax sounds just like mine, a 379xxx.
If the neck is silver in color and underslung you can bet it IS solid sterling silver, except the brass fittings, of course. Look inside the big end of the tenon if not convinced :lol: . King lacquered over the sterling which gave the neck a very shiny look. I've seen some of these with the lacquer rubbed off and they look great. I took some 0000 steel wool to mine: a gentle 4 hours and two sore thumbs later I had a very shiny bare silver neck that looks awesome (that King lacquer is some tough stuff)!

My sax has the double socket neck, too. As far as I can tell it's more of a selling/value point to have this feature than any real benefit, but it's part of what makes a Super 20 a Super 20, 'eh?

As far as the price: look at 'em on eBay to get educated on the comparative low end of the price scale. Pay more for your own peace of mind, the guarantee that the music store version needs no further setup and for the ablility to ascertain condition in person. If the eBay price difference is great eough to take the risk, go for it! I'm guessing most S20's have been looked after rather well by their owners (that's how I got mine).

[JimD]

TenorReiner,

That seems a fair price for that vintage S20. The trouble with comparing prices on ebay is that Super 20s cost more in Europe than the US, Saxofoonwinkel sell them for 4.500 euros. I think it's worth the extra to be able to play and inspect the horn; I tried several before I bought mine and they all felt and sounded different and the people in the shop showed me one that was such a dog that they wouldn't sell it. If you've found a good one then go for it.

[shmuelyosef]

A warm baking soda solution on the stovetop for an hour or two will remove all the lacquer from a King neck...then a gentle 10 minute polish with Hagerty's will make it gleam.

[TenorReinier]

Thanks for your input guys. However, I have decided not to buy the horn yet. My thoughts are going in all directions these days, I am really overwhelmed by all the options. I guess I'll stick to my Selmer for a while to be able to play test more horns before I make another decision I might regret. I want a tenor for life, and I still don't know what suits me best.

Problem is to find out if a horn is really a great horn for you, I guess you should buy it and try it extensively in real life applications (not in the silly cabins in the shops...). So maybe I should buy it after all.. Ah... never mind. :? It's complicated.

[Sax Hut]

I want a tenor for life...

I'm just happy with a tenor for each day of the week. :)

[TenorReinier]

So, I went to another dealer and tried antoher 376k S20 with a silver neck, no pearls. I played it against my Serie III and '70 VI. The S20 won it for me bigtime, but I found it not that free blowing at all. I asked to check for a leak or so, and so the tech did but said he could not find anything wrong with the horn. (he didn't look that long though)

BUT.. the sound was alive man, alive and kicking. My Serie III felt dead in my hands compared to this horn, like I was holding a pet that had just died :wink:

I'm sure now, I'll go on searching a S20 that suits me, or a Zephyr Special or so. I'll try some more horns this & next week and I'll return to the dealer where I tried the S20 where I started this topic for. If I don't find a better horn (and I'm planning to test quite a few, made testing a schedule for next week :oops: ) I'll buy it.

After today, I don't believe in new Selmers anymore. The have good intonation, and the sound may be big and projecting, but... it's DEAD. My english fails me to describe it properly.

(note, this is a personal opinion and I respect players who like new selmers like any other player)

TenorReinier, a soon to be S20 owner.

[Whatasaxman]

IMHO Something you may find over time is that most new horns feel dead compared to older "broken in" horns. There are exceptions, but I personally have never personally had a horn feel "alive" till it's been played MANY hours.

[TenorReinier]

but I personally have never personally had a horn feel "alive" till it's been played MANY hours

Yes, maybe. I've heard that before around here. That would imply that new selmers feel alive in, say, twenty years or so, after they've been played extensively, wouldn't it?

Who knows. But maybe it's just that modern horns are designed according to a whole other tonal concept; to be able to blend well, to be even in sound though the whole register etc. In other words: a dull concept.

Guess this is the old modern vs vintage discussion. Either way, I'm not going to play my Serie III another deccenium until the has been 'broken in'. I want a living horn right now, right here. :) 8)

[TenorReinier]

Guess what.

I've got one. A 390K with silver neck. No double socket, no pearls, not a load of fancy stuff, but man, what a horn. I couldn't be happier. I compared it with two really nice Mk VI's, real nice horns, but the S20 blew them away. This is, to me, a 100% horn. I love it. Intonation's steady, it's real well setup and the sound is indescribable.

To all you guys on this forum: I've learnt a lot from you, and you've helped me making my decision, forming my opinion, in most cases without even knowing it. For this, I am very thankful. It's also thanks to you guys, that I now have a horn that satisfies all my needs and makes me completely happy.

TenorReinier 8)
S20, yeah.

[Saxturtle]

TenorReiner,

Congrats! I must also commend you in doing your homework and making an informed decision based on empirical comparison and not conjecture. Hope you enjoy yours as I do mine!

DMW

[CashSax]

My SilverSonic Tenor #385... is a work of art, and well, you guys already know how it PLAYS..sorry to hear about the new Selmer tenors, (oh well nobody said they'd play themselves)..BTW,I've been a Selmer player for many yrs..IMHO they are as far from dead and lifeless saxophones as you can get..the new horns look great anyway..I've yet to try any Ref or other new Selmer tenors.
I play a silverplate MKVI #156...tenor with a Sterling neck that's got the balls of the King. But yes, more centered and focused, the horn gets a fantastic tone.. the King seems to my ears a more fullcolor aural spectrum..and of 'course, the SOUND..My '49 SBA tenor is another Selmer that is off the map sound-wise..These horns give me a good benchmark and the King is in a class by it self for sure..as is my TH&C tenor.
I also play the newer Selmers series II&III Bari and Sop and they are "breaking in" wonderfully..the Sop after 3 yrs is pure buttah..the new 2 yo Selmer Bari is a Gas too with no problemos and man what a monster sound.But back to the KING, I now have cherry #470... full 'Sonic Alto w/gold inlay coming from NY and ....oooooowwweeee baby..my Silver MKVII Alto gonna take a rest for awhile.. :twisted:

[protenor (nz)]

To TenorReinier

It was really good to not only watch the way that you went about solving your problem (dediding about whether or not King Super 20 Silversonics are really as good as your first impression) but especially to see you come to exactly the same conclusions that I did about my brand new King Super 20 Silversonic serial no 719736, which I believe was probably made up out of spare parts late 1978-early 1979, but as far as I can tell had most of the hallmarks that I look for in a Super 20 Silversonic plus the fact that I got two extras when I ordered it, (i) That it be bright silver plated on the brass body and bow instead of lacquered which cost me another $135 and (ii) the gold wash inside the solid sterling silver bell, which all added up to $1995 when a brand new MkVII cost only $1350.

Since I had been very happy with my brand new YTS-61 that I bought around 1971 for only $320 instead of the usual retail price of $360 because of a dent in it, but that never worried me in the least, I was at first horrified by the 13 leaks found within the first month of my receiving it, when my 61 had not missed a beat in 11 hard wearing years, and I had been expecting a super 61 and was so disappointed that I sold the 61 to a school boy for $450 to force myself to get the most out of this Super 20 Silversonic that I was so disappointed in that I tried to sell it within the first year for only $1200 when I was in Australia.

I am so glad that nobody was smart enough to take me up on the offer, because within 6 months of getting back home, I had a friend bring his Conn 10M over to record us both. When I played his 10M I had thought that it would sound better when I heard it back but it shamefully blew the Conn away and that is when I realized that solid silver projects and that it is the audience that get the benefit, not only of this horn but all expensive quality instruments.

Have you ever heard the advice when choosing a top instrument to take a friend because a projecting instrument sends the sound away and a cheaper one lets the sound hang closer to the player and they get a false impression in unmerited favour of the cheaper less projecting instrument.

So from then on I really changed my concept of my horn and even though I did not play as well in the early 80s, I am amazes at some old vidoes of that typical King Super 20 Silversonic brilliance that no other horn that I have heard quite has equalled yet.

For me it has the meatiness of the best Conn 10Ms, and even if challenged by the 10M has it also in its favour that it is much closer to the MKVI ergonomically whereas the 10M is quite horrible, unless one really puts in heaps of work to somehow adapt to the horrible straight across little left finger cluster.

The Selmer MkVI certainly in the best examples, sing but without the larger than life brilliance that the King has. It is a case of comfort and reliability versus WOW! at a price, but not such an unreasonable price as the 10M demands.

I would like to firmly endorse the criticism that you laid against modern saxophones, and even go so far as to say with Yamaha, as Ralph Morgan, one of the last of the old "In the know" sax experts that were connected to the H N White era, told me himself, that Yamaha clearly lost it, for that larger than life promise that the YTS-61 offered, but this will not be discernable to those who do not particularly get blown away by larger than life performances, where the player is not only larger than life, and his taste but also his humility to bother to choose the best instrument to help him put out for others to see the larger than life vision that he has about saxophones.