soybean
10-26-2008, 07:55 PM
This is a thread about saxophones made by the LeBlanc company and later by Vito. These horns had different key-work which allowed improved fingerings on the saxophone. They were known variously as Le Rationnel, Rationelle, Rationale, Semi-Rationale, and System. I rescued these posts made by SOTW members from another thread which will be deleted in the future. The conversation was started by zxcvbnm who was selling his horn on eBay. Here is part of the eBay ad for reference purposes.
quote from zxcvbnm (ebay ad): "This is a LeBlanc system alto sax. Made in the late 50's or early 60's in Paris, France, this was LeBlanc's short-lived ingenious pro saxophone design… They have an innovative and unique keying system that I believe is the zenith of saxophone design. If you have never heard of this, here's how it works. All the normal saxophone fingerings work, BUT, if you press either the right hand D, E, or F keys, it lowers the pitch of the left hand notes down a half step. Basically, play open C#, press D, E, or F, and that makes C. Same for G#, press A and either the D, E or F, keys, and it makes G#. Also, it has a Eb trill key. If you have had a 20's horn, you know on the 20's saxes the Eb trill is difficult to use and regulate. This Eb key is not. It is on the front and has a larger tone hole so the intonation and timbre is almost exactly like the normal Eb.
This horn has true Boehm system tone hole placement. When Adolphe sax made the saxophone, he tried to follow the Boehm system but there were certain keys that needed to be left closed, thus making the scale slightly uneven and certain notes stuffy and out of tune. The Leblanc system follows the Boehm system. Notes like A that are improperly vented on every other saxophone, and thus out of tune and stuffy, are vented correctly on the LeBlanc system, and therefore in tune and in tone with the rest of the scale. This horn has spot on intonation and most even scale out of any alto I've ever played. This is due to the unique Boehm system venting.
The keywork is fast and light and feels more modern than most other vintage horns. The tone on this alto is unique and simply amazing. This alto has the most projection out of any alto I've played. Just keep pushing the horn and you will get more volume, it doesn't break up or lose tonal quality as it gets louder. It's sweet and singing. The sound has a medium bright french quality to it, but the sound is huge…
Originally Posted by Henry H:It is not the full Rationale system though... (which) also has the C# tone hole on the bow normally open. This, like almost every other sax has it normally closed. On the full system there's an extra pinky touch down by the RH C/Eb touches.
amasax: Close, but not quite. The 'Rational' sax, actually known as the model 100 (105?, I don't remember for sure offhand), was made, by default, with a closed low C# key. It was only by special order that Leblanc would supply one with the open low C# and the 3rd key for right pinky.
The prototype horns (the 'Rationelle', close on spelling ) -did- have the open C# and right hand pinky. At least, later in the run it did. The earlier prototypes had all sorts of bastardized key layouts.
Btw, it's my understanding that if one ordered a low C# on the Model 100 horns, Leblanc did -not- relocate the tone hole, which resulted in a quite sharp low note, as the key was open by default. What they would do is insert a ring into the tone hole chimney to alter the pitch. Kinda ironic on this, as the Rational was supposed to be extra superior, and here they went, compromising things just to save a buck.
Henry H: The "Rationale" system had everything open- including the C#. The semi-rational and the LeBlanc system horns gave up on the complexities of the open C#. It may well have been special orderable. The "Rationale" was the spelling used in the only commercial literature I've ever seen on the thing; in French it may well be different and of course the translation into English was probably hit or miss with multiple variants.
That's just as well because the horns themselves Rationale, Semi-Rationale, Rationalle, Ir-Rational seem to be chock full of horn to horn evolving keywork and design tidbits. LH pinky cluster ergos aside I've had several tenors and altos (down to one of each) and have found them to be very enjoyable to play.
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L.../33_saxshopnl/ links to an interesting specimen with the open C#.
amasax: first up, terminology:
* Rationale, or 'Rationelle', as I think it was actually spelled on the horns themselves, refers to the 1st series, produced around the 1930s. Saxpic's pics are of one of these first series horns, but I think that particular horn might be missing a key or two. #33 was early enough in the series that the full keywork may not have yet been rolled out. Some of the very early horns are a real kludge of keywork - very strange. Saxpic's horn does look very close to the full version, tho.
The full blown version with open C# (which, btw, saxpic's horn -does- have) came out a bit later, altho I don't know by which serial number. As far as I know, these were only issued in alto form.
* These horns had a closed G# key. It opens on the back side, so is easily missed. I've owned two of the later, full versions, and still have one buried in my garage.
Here's some pics of the horn I sold. I'll leave these pics up for a bit. And, NO, you don't have my permission rip these off, put on ebay, give to saxpics, or anyone else. These are just for SOTW viewing.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/4354@sbcglobal.net
See pic 0773 for the closed G# on the rear.
* the 2nd series horns, more commonly known as the 'Model 100' (if memory serves), came out around 1953/1954 and interestingly enough, were endorsed and used by Vincent Abato.
Available in alto and tenor, and I think there may have been some catalog blurb about a bari model, but I don't think that was ever made.
These babies have keywork that can actually be used.
These are the horns commonly found on ebay, usually several every year (sometimes I've seen up to maybe a dozen or so, but most years every 2-3 months, something trickles out on ebay).
These horns came with a closed C#, closed G#. The open C# was optional, but as I posted above, I don't think Leblanc relocated the tone hole (which would make a middle D extremely sharp), they just modified it by adding a ring to lower the pitch.
I ran into Eugene Rousseau this past summer at a band camp, showed him the 1st series horn I still own, and had an interesting discussion about these with him (very nice guy, too). He'd never encountered the 1st series, really caught his eye. Turns out that he had Leblanc modify one of his altos to add the low C#, and told me about the added ring in the tone chimney.
Any rate, these 1st series horns are quite interesting, but real oddities, and not practical to use.
Hope this helps set the story straight (as as can be, as there's no one alive that I know of who knows the full scoop on these).
And, btw, the 2nd series horns are kinda neat, very playable, and in alto or tenor versions. Only thing I don't like about the horns I have is the the high F# key is operated by the left pinky and not in the conventional manner. Not as user friendly.
(later) One more tidbit. Somewhere in my reading, I vaguely remember that in the development of the 1st series horns, it was decided to leave both the G# and right hand Eb as closed keys. Probably because to have them open would mean the player would have to modify their fingering to allow for this (kind of like the old style open G# flutes). They evidently wanted to keep the fingering as much in common with conventional horns as possible.
AhCheung: Amasax, ever had the chance to play/compare one of your (playable) horns with the Vito (Beaugnier made) stencil? An SotWer who has, told me the Vito bore is bigger and it stays well in adjustment.
warp x: Thanks for the info Amasax. You know of course that on the System horns the low C tonehole has a ring inside? (At least mine does, and it is factory)
amasax: No, I didn't know this. I have several altos & a tenor, all buried in my garage.
Will check this out sometime, if I can remember...
I don't know that your 'C' ring has anything in common with the ring I mentioned above, could be a mod incorporated during the production run, based upon tuning considerations, etc. What's your serial number range?
warp x: Mine is 43x. Does your tenor have the open C#?
Henry H answering amasax: -Model 120 tenor, Model 100 alto.
-They both had open G#'s in the normal column of toneholes down the front configuration. They had an additional "normally sprung shut tonehole" on the back which acted in all regards as a conventional G# in terms of fingering and interaction with lower stack and bell keys. The front G# tonehole both avoided the common issue with having to compensate for the closed G# by opening some of the upper stack cups more than would normally be expected and allowing for a forked G#/Ab with the RH without touching the LH pinky cluster G# touch.
-Agree absolutely that there's no one with the full scoop on these!
warp x: I tried to find some info on the acoustician Mr. Houvenaghel, one of the designers of the horn, but found nothing. Anyone have some info about him?
amasax: 43x is in that early/transition zone, where it's possible you have the final version or something not quite there yet.
There is a limited amount of info & pics out there on these babies, and if I'm remembering correctly, some of the 3xx stuff i've seen pics of is not quite there yet. Not so sure about the 4xx run. I have a 5xx tenor, and it's the final version keywork. But I don't know if the tenors kept pace with alto tooling or were a little behind in incorporating the developments.
I'm thinking (but would have to check) that for the altos, 5xx forwards are likely to be full keywork.
I don't remember exact serial ranges of the horns I have, or a couple others I've sold, but I'm thinking I might have a silver alto in the 500 range, but would have to dig all of this out of my garage.
I do have one or two that are > 1000 and they are just what one would expect.
Henry H: I currently have an early 5XX tenor and had mid 7XX and 8XX tenors at one time. They were essentially mechanically identical. All three were slightly different than Warp-X's; placement of second G# tone hole (laterally, not vertically) and his low C# is held shut by an arm to the low B as I recall.
I only had one alto (decided the Vito corks were preferable to the adjusting screws and so went that route) so I can't compare those.
amasax to warp x: I took a look today at a couple of the altos I have, 7xx & 12xx range, and neither have a ring inside the low C tone chimney, or anywhere else down low that I could see. SO, not sure what the deal with your horn…
AhCheung on terminology: It's "Le Rationnel". I saw a pic of a 1935 horn from a French Museum with only "SR" engraved on it below the Leblanc engraving… (standing for "système rationnel" I'd suppose).
zxcvbnm: My 50X horn (that will be shipped out tomorrow) does not have the mechanism that closes low C# when playing B. It has the tonehole on the back, and has a different neck brace from the later horns. There were a lot of changes in this relatively short run.
warp x: Some more differences. Higher serial numbers seem to have a large pantsguard, mine only has a very small one. Also on mine there's a very distinctive neck brace that I have not seen on other tenors.
amasax: warp x, pure spec here, but i'd wonder if the ring in your low C tone hole might be because the horn was being prepped for the open low C#, but was later made up as the default setup with no open C#, but they left the ring in...
warp x: Yes that could be the case. Did you play one with the open C#? I'm kind of curious about the added possibilities.
amasax: No, I've never gotten my hands on an open low C# horn, although I'd like to. (It) appears there weren't very many made.
That said, other than an occasional technical advantage, I don't think there's any appreciable difference in tone, etc (assuming the tone hole ring works on tuning).
________________
quote from zxcvbnm (ebay ad): "This is a LeBlanc system alto sax. Made in the late 50's or early 60's in Paris, France, this was LeBlanc's short-lived ingenious pro saxophone design… They have an innovative and unique keying system that I believe is the zenith of saxophone design. If you have never heard of this, here's how it works. All the normal saxophone fingerings work, BUT, if you press either the right hand D, E, or F keys, it lowers the pitch of the left hand notes down a half step. Basically, play open C#, press D, E, or F, and that makes C. Same for G#, press A and either the D, E or F, keys, and it makes G#. Also, it has a Eb trill key. If you have had a 20's horn, you know on the 20's saxes the Eb trill is difficult to use and regulate. This Eb key is not. It is on the front and has a larger tone hole so the intonation and timbre is almost exactly like the normal Eb.
This horn has true Boehm system tone hole placement. When Adolphe sax made the saxophone, he tried to follow the Boehm system but there were certain keys that needed to be left closed, thus making the scale slightly uneven and certain notes stuffy and out of tune. The Leblanc system follows the Boehm system. Notes like A that are improperly vented on every other saxophone, and thus out of tune and stuffy, are vented correctly on the LeBlanc system, and therefore in tune and in tone with the rest of the scale. This horn has spot on intonation and most even scale out of any alto I've ever played. This is due to the unique Boehm system venting.
The keywork is fast and light and feels more modern than most other vintage horns. The tone on this alto is unique and simply amazing. This alto has the most projection out of any alto I've played. Just keep pushing the horn and you will get more volume, it doesn't break up or lose tonal quality as it gets louder. It's sweet and singing. The sound has a medium bright french quality to it, but the sound is huge…
Originally Posted by Henry H:It is not the full Rationale system though... (which) also has the C# tone hole on the bow normally open. This, like almost every other sax has it normally closed. On the full system there's an extra pinky touch down by the RH C/Eb touches.
amasax: Close, but not quite. The 'Rational' sax, actually known as the model 100 (105?, I don't remember for sure offhand), was made, by default, with a closed low C# key. It was only by special order that Leblanc would supply one with the open low C# and the 3rd key for right pinky.
The prototype horns (the 'Rationelle', close on spelling ) -did- have the open C# and right hand pinky. At least, later in the run it did. The earlier prototypes had all sorts of bastardized key layouts.
Btw, it's my understanding that if one ordered a low C# on the Model 100 horns, Leblanc did -not- relocate the tone hole, which resulted in a quite sharp low note, as the key was open by default. What they would do is insert a ring into the tone hole chimney to alter the pitch. Kinda ironic on this, as the Rational was supposed to be extra superior, and here they went, compromising things just to save a buck.
Henry H: The "Rationale" system had everything open- including the C#. The semi-rational and the LeBlanc system horns gave up on the complexities of the open C#. It may well have been special orderable. The "Rationale" was the spelling used in the only commercial literature I've ever seen on the thing; in French it may well be different and of course the translation into English was probably hit or miss with multiple variants.
That's just as well because the horns themselves Rationale, Semi-Rationale, Rationalle, Ir-Rational seem to be chock full of horn to horn evolving keywork and design tidbits. LH pinky cluster ergos aside I've had several tenors and altos (down to one of each) and have found them to be very enjoyable to play.
http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/L.../33_saxshopnl/ links to an interesting specimen with the open C#.
amasax: first up, terminology:
* Rationale, or 'Rationelle', as I think it was actually spelled on the horns themselves, refers to the 1st series, produced around the 1930s. Saxpic's pics are of one of these first series horns, but I think that particular horn might be missing a key or two. #33 was early enough in the series that the full keywork may not have yet been rolled out. Some of the very early horns are a real kludge of keywork - very strange. Saxpic's horn does look very close to the full version, tho.
The full blown version with open C# (which, btw, saxpic's horn -does- have) came out a bit later, altho I don't know by which serial number. As far as I know, these were only issued in alto form.
* These horns had a closed G# key. It opens on the back side, so is easily missed. I've owned two of the later, full versions, and still have one buried in my garage.
Here's some pics of the horn I sold. I'll leave these pics up for a bit. And, NO, you don't have my permission rip these off, put on ebay, give to saxpics, or anyone else. These are just for SOTW viewing.
http://briefcase.yahoo.com/4354@sbcglobal.net
See pic 0773 for the closed G# on the rear.
* the 2nd series horns, more commonly known as the 'Model 100' (if memory serves), came out around 1953/1954 and interestingly enough, were endorsed and used by Vincent Abato.
Available in alto and tenor, and I think there may have been some catalog blurb about a bari model, but I don't think that was ever made.
These babies have keywork that can actually be used.
These are the horns commonly found on ebay, usually several every year (sometimes I've seen up to maybe a dozen or so, but most years every 2-3 months, something trickles out on ebay).
These horns came with a closed C#, closed G#. The open C# was optional, but as I posted above, I don't think Leblanc relocated the tone hole (which would make a middle D extremely sharp), they just modified it by adding a ring to lower the pitch.
I ran into Eugene Rousseau this past summer at a band camp, showed him the 1st series horn I still own, and had an interesting discussion about these with him (very nice guy, too). He'd never encountered the 1st series, really caught his eye. Turns out that he had Leblanc modify one of his altos to add the low C#, and told me about the added ring in the tone chimney.
Any rate, these 1st series horns are quite interesting, but real oddities, and not practical to use.
Hope this helps set the story straight (as as can be, as there's no one alive that I know of who knows the full scoop on these).
And, btw, the 2nd series horns are kinda neat, very playable, and in alto or tenor versions. Only thing I don't like about the horns I have is the the high F# key is operated by the left pinky and not in the conventional manner. Not as user friendly.
(later) One more tidbit. Somewhere in my reading, I vaguely remember that in the development of the 1st series horns, it was decided to leave both the G# and right hand Eb as closed keys. Probably because to have them open would mean the player would have to modify their fingering to allow for this (kind of like the old style open G# flutes). They evidently wanted to keep the fingering as much in common with conventional horns as possible.
AhCheung: Amasax, ever had the chance to play/compare one of your (playable) horns with the Vito (Beaugnier made) stencil? An SotWer who has, told me the Vito bore is bigger and it stays well in adjustment.
warp x: Thanks for the info Amasax. You know of course that on the System horns the low C tonehole has a ring inside? (At least mine does, and it is factory)
amasax: No, I didn't know this. I have several altos & a tenor, all buried in my garage.
Will check this out sometime, if I can remember...
I don't know that your 'C' ring has anything in common with the ring I mentioned above, could be a mod incorporated during the production run, based upon tuning considerations, etc. What's your serial number range?
warp x: Mine is 43x. Does your tenor have the open C#?
Henry H answering amasax: -Model 120 tenor, Model 100 alto.
-They both had open G#'s in the normal column of toneholes down the front configuration. They had an additional "normally sprung shut tonehole" on the back which acted in all regards as a conventional G# in terms of fingering and interaction with lower stack and bell keys. The front G# tonehole both avoided the common issue with having to compensate for the closed G# by opening some of the upper stack cups more than would normally be expected and allowing for a forked G#/Ab with the RH without touching the LH pinky cluster G# touch.
-Agree absolutely that there's no one with the full scoop on these!
warp x: I tried to find some info on the acoustician Mr. Houvenaghel, one of the designers of the horn, but found nothing. Anyone have some info about him?
amasax: 43x is in that early/transition zone, where it's possible you have the final version or something not quite there yet.
There is a limited amount of info & pics out there on these babies, and if I'm remembering correctly, some of the 3xx stuff i've seen pics of is not quite there yet. Not so sure about the 4xx run. I have a 5xx tenor, and it's the final version keywork. But I don't know if the tenors kept pace with alto tooling or were a little behind in incorporating the developments.
I'm thinking (but would have to check) that for the altos, 5xx forwards are likely to be full keywork.
I don't remember exact serial ranges of the horns I have, or a couple others I've sold, but I'm thinking I might have a silver alto in the 500 range, but would have to dig all of this out of my garage.
I do have one or two that are > 1000 and they are just what one would expect.
Henry H: I currently have an early 5XX tenor and had mid 7XX and 8XX tenors at one time. They were essentially mechanically identical. All three were slightly different than Warp-X's; placement of second G# tone hole (laterally, not vertically) and his low C# is held shut by an arm to the low B as I recall.
I only had one alto (decided the Vito corks were preferable to the adjusting screws and so went that route) so I can't compare those.
amasax to warp x: I took a look today at a couple of the altos I have, 7xx & 12xx range, and neither have a ring inside the low C tone chimney, or anywhere else down low that I could see. SO, not sure what the deal with your horn…
AhCheung on terminology: It's "Le Rationnel". I saw a pic of a 1935 horn from a French Museum with only "SR" engraved on it below the Leblanc engraving… (standing for "système rationnel" I'd suppose).
zxcvbnm: My 50X horn (that will be shipped out tomorrow) does not have the mechanism that closes low C# when playing B. It has the tonehole on the back, and has a different neck brace from the later horns. There were a lot of changes in this relatively short run.
warp x: Some more differences. Higher serial numbers seem to have a large pantsguard, mine only has a very small one. Also on mine there's a very distinctive neck brace that I have not seen on other tenors.
amasax: warp x, pure spec here, but i'd wonder if the ring in your low C tone hole might be because the horn was being prepped for the open low C#, but was later made up as the default setup with no open C#, but they left the ring in...
warp x: Yes that could be the case. Did you play one with the open C#? I'm kind of curious about the added possibilities.
amasax: No, I've never gotten my hands on an open low C# horn, although I'd like to. (It) appears there weren't very many made.
That said, other than an occasional technical advantage, I don't think there's any appreciable difference in tone, etc (assuming the tone hole ring works on tuning).
________________