To buy or not to buy: Tranny alto

[Burma Jones]

Hello,
I've just been given the opportunity to buy a transitional alto. M-prefix serial (I don't have the number), nail file G#, split bell keys, micro tuner, and rolled tone holes. The body is very straight and all the parts are there. The problem is that the horn seems to have been stored in a moist environment for a long time. A lot of the rods seem rather rusty and the springs are mostly shot. I'm sure it will need all of the pads replaced as well. All keys move freely though. The seller wants $100. To me it still seems like a bargain but I wanted a few opinions from you folks more knowledgeable in the area.:)
Thanks

[zxcvbnm]

That's crazy bargain! Buy it and if not I want it! The pads can be replaced and so can the springs.

[BlueTrane2028]

What he said, buy it now!

[BarrySachs]

Agreed! Buy it for $100 and put a full overhaul into it. $800-$1000 all-in. If you don't dig it, sell for $1200, maybe more.

[ChuBQ]

omg did u forget one zero?

[Burma Jones]

Picked up the horn today. Serial # M226345. Here are a few pictures. Sorry, my saxophone photography is none too great.











Looks like the neck has been pulled down at some point. It doesn't seem too bad, I didn't even notice it when I first saw the horn.

After looking around, it seems like this is a New Wonder, not a transitional.

[zxcvbnm]

Yep, late New Wonder. I'm really wondering about that lacquer. They never made these horns in lacquer but this one looks REALLY original to me... not as good of a deal but still a deal.

[bruce bailey]

It could be a "first lacquer" where no finish needed to be buffed off thus the original look.

[Saxland]

That is a steal!! Congrats on the deal. Does it play as is?

[Phil Barone]

Hello,
I've just been given the opportunity to buy a transitional alto. M-prefix serial (I don't have the number), nail file G#, split bell keys, micro tuner, and rolled tone holes. The body is very straight and all the parts are there. The problem is that the horn seems to have been stored in a moist environment for a long time. A lot of the rods seem rather rusty and the springs are mostly shot. I'm sure it will need all of the pads replaced as well. All keys move freely though. The seller wants $100. To me it still seems like a bargain but I wanted a few opinions from you folks more knowledgeable in the area.:)
Thanks

NOT! If you can name two greatv players that used them and didn't end up on Selmers than go ahead and buy that junker. Phil

[Phil Barone]

That's crazy bargain! Buy it and if not I want it! The pads can be replaced and so can the springs.

And what if the screws won't come out? I used to do repairs and we had a Selmer once that we couldn't get some of the screws out of because they sat so long. All the heat and oil for weeks and weeks and weeks wouldn't take them out. You could spend a grand just getting it playing. Phil

[BlueTrane2028]

It doesn't look as bad as he suggested it was. I seriously doubt its that rusted. At least, nothing that PB Blaster can't take care of. It visually looks to be in the same shape as my 26M, and should be a fine player. At worst, he spends 500-800 between purchase and repairs, decides he doesn't like it, and gets at least most of his money back by selling it to someone else.

I have a King Zephyr that's in far worse shape (an old bad relacquer with acid bleeds all over it... at least the engraving is still there if a little faint), I got a quote to fix it at $700, and will be doing so in December. I have less than a hundred in it so far, a little less than he has spent, and for sub $800, I'll have a "new" sax that goes for about that much anyways.

Sometimes breaking even is just fine, you've breathed new life into something that was forgotten.

[Jonathan C.]

idk,
I sold a Chu berry Alto in a little better cond. with no pulled down neck for $600 or something close to that.
New Wonders are worth a little less. I think gross if you were to sell it ready to go you might get $500. I probably could of gotton more but I needed the money.

Its a risk. Either way its a dang good deal at $100. Most I bet it will need is a Repad and it may be ready to sing. Take it to a few techs get it fixed up and ready to sing. And you will have restored a vintage American horn.

[zxcvbnm]

[QUOTE=Phil Barone;962675]NOT! If you can name two greatv players that used them and didn't end up on Selmers than go ahead and buy that junker. Phil[/QUOTE

[zxcvbnm]

NOT! If you can name two greatv players that used them and didn't end up on Selmers than go ahead and buy that junker. Phil

I had a Mark VI tenor. I just sold it so I can fund a Buescher Aristocrat tenor.

[BarrySachs]

NOT! If you can name two greatv players that used them and didn't end up on Selmers than go ahead and buy that junker. Phil

Come on Phil, these old Conns are as good as any Selmer. Earl Warren played a horn like this. Marshal Royal played a #245,xxx for his entire career, granted the 245k is a later 6m type. Scott Robinson plays an alto like this. I suppose most be-bopers use later 6m, Selmer or other newer horns but these early "trannys" are great for swing and other big band type gigs.

Dave Glasser has an even older New Wonder series I that he's played for years with Clark Terry's band. I think if this horn was in good shape, I would prefer it to a mk6. I have two altos now, a Selmer BA and a Conn tranny, and I play the Conn most of the time.

[Jonathan C.]

I had a Mark VI tenor. I just sold it so I can fund a Buescher Aristocrat tenor.

zxcvbnm,
You are a very special case.

[conn1933]

Like Barry I have 2 altos, a Conn Tranny 6m (257xxx) and a Selmer, not the BA, but the SBA (53xxx), and I prefer the Conn to the Selmer. I like the ergos on the Conn, my hands just seem to fit nicely with where things are once I put risers on the palm keys. I'm no "great player" (to quote Phil), but the old Conns are so flexible in terms of sound, and with such a quick action (at least from the transitional 6M on), that I think they're still highly "legit" as an everyday horn for the pro to use. And in truth, there are modern pros that use vintage Conns, Jerry Bergonzi and James Carter spring to mind - Bergonzi plays a 10M (and is selling a Transitional 6M in silver) and Carter has a highly modified 30M and a Conn New Wonder, from what I've read elsewhere in this forum.

What I'm trying to say is, don't dismiss Conns simply because most pros play Selmers, if they're not endorsing Yamaha or Yanagisawa, that is :). I suspect that if Conn had not died as a pro-horn maker in the 1960s, lots more people would be playing Conns today, and vintage ones at that.

So, Burma Jones, $100 for a New Wonder is a very good deal, and judging from the photos, you don't actually have to do too much work, so fix it up and it should sound really sweet. My congratulations. Now if I could only find someone to sell me a fixer-upper 26M for $100...

[Burma Jones]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm going to go ahead with the overhaul. The rust isn't as severe as I may have described. The action is a predictably little worn; there are a few wobbly keys like side B-flat and palm F but it isn't as bad as I had expected. I actually find the keys more comfortably placed than on my Yamaha. The only real problem I have with the action is the lack of an articulated G#, but I've heard of this feature being added. Is this a feasible modification?

[Djassoo]

That is the opposite of junk. Junk comes from Taiwan. That is good old yee ha US saxophone magic right there, yes sir, giddy up horsey! Even if you do pay a grand, that is a whole lot of saxophone for a grand - providing it is a good specimen of course. Just look at what else a grand buys you now a days. And you are keeping in playing order a fantastic never to be repeated piece of saxophone history. That is the :smurf: right there. You win. :occasion:

[Bootman]

I have one of these and no matter which other horn I grab, it has become my favourite alto as it has something that no other alto I have owned or played has. It has the sound.......If you don't take it then I will grab it for that money!

[Burma Jones]

Thanks guys,
I'm definitely planning on taking it in next week but I'm still a little unsure about the practicality of using it in college. It seems like I would make very little, if any, money "flipping" the horn so it would definitely be for keeps. I do a lot of classical playing and I've searched around this forum for information about using Conns for classical. From what I understand it is very possible but maybe a tad impractical. I definitely don't mind spending extra time with the horn but would it be wiser to put the money I would spend on an overhaul toward a modern horn?

[zxcvbnm]

Some teachers can be strict about what horns to use. But if you go to a school like Fredonia or FSU, vintage horns are welcome. Conns can be used for classical just fine. For me, they have a spread quality that I don't like in my classical sound, so I prefer the focused sound of Bueschers for classical instead. But it's more personal preference. The intonation is good and they have nice key action.

[BlueTrane2028]

These horns are every bit as useable as any other pro sax ever made. It's all a matter of getting used to the horn, selecting a mouthpiece, and shedding, shedding, shedding.

[Burma Jones]

Alright, I'm going to go through with it. Even though it doesn't play, the more I look at it the more I love it. My teacher is very lenient with equipment; he plays Yamaha and Keilwerth but is fine with anything that is working for the student.

[Burma Jones]

I know it's been a while but I got the horn back today after having it completely overhauled. Overall, I'm very pleased with it. It has a great sound and the intonation, while not perfect yet, is definitely manageable. It is working surprisingly well with my Rousseau. It has the infamous gurgle, but with some practice (and a mouthpiece cap in the bell) it's already starting to get better. It's a very different beast than my Yamaha; I think I underestimated how different it actually is. It seems to require a very different approach to producing sound. For the first few minutes I played it, the lower octave (particularly low G) would jump an octave if I wasn't paying attention. After some practice it got a lot better, but I'm wondering if this is normal. Anyone else experienced this?

[Grumps]

Was gonna ask you about a nice, soft low B; but I got into this one late.

[jicaino]

NOT! If you can name two greatv players that used them and didn't end up on Selmers than go ahead and buy that junker. Phil

Wow, that's certainly rude... Imagine if someone answers this way to somebody requesting advice or information on YOUR "junkers"... :| or by the same logic "no great ever used a Phil Barone MPC, they must suck"....

[Mark Fleming]

Anyone else experienced this?

I just did just yesterday. I'm rebuilding a vintage German horn that's giving me fits. One of the problem was a warble. It's a warble problem that could develop with any horn, so it might help.

My low G and lower weren't stable, and it started right at G (rather than D, which is where I tend to get warble problems). I'd leveled tone holes and I ran the leak light through it many times and couldn't find a problem. The new pads sealed perfectly. I began trying some of the traditional (and sometimes irrational) fixes, hoping to find a simple solution. I tried different mp and reed combinations. I greased the neck tenon to make sure it wasn't leaking. I put stuff in the bow (pingpong ball, champagne cork, etc.) I prayed. I cursed.

Finally, I resorted to a trick I've used when rebuilding clarinets. I rubberbanded a baggie over the bell, clamped every key, and sucked on the neck, listening for a little "sizzle" leak, which I heard. I then wiggle things and push down on suspected pads while sucking and see if the noise goes away. If I sucked too hard, I could cause enough vacuum in the body tube that it would seal and the noise would stop. That told me that it's likely a pad and a very tiny leak. So, I had to alternate with blowing and sucking. I was a little dizzy by the time I located the leak.

It was the lower octave pad not sitting back down tight enough. I couldn't see that one with the leak light. Playing low G and lower releases an arm that presses down on the lower octave pad. My octave pad was just barely loose enough to make G and lower unstable and tend to warble, but only in some conditions, like low volume. If I played the upper register and went directly to G or below, it tended to be worse because the arm had not pushed down on the lower octave pad. Once it was force-seated by the arm, it tended to stay seated, but in other situations, it may or may not seal. Turns out on my horn that the fix was adjusting the thickness of the cork on the arm that extends above the neck tenon and activates the upper register pad.

I'll now add this to the 523 things to check when a warble develops. So, it's not like this is going to be the cure for your warble. But maybe. Try clamping one or both octave keys and see if the warble goes way.

My horn is still uniformly flat on the lower octave and sharp on the upper. GRRRR. Anybody know what section of the Forum to I post to get help with this problem?

Mark

[Burma Jones]

I think I found the source of some of my problems. The microtuner is leaking. In addition to the low warble, I always feel like I have to fight to keep the middle register (mainly middle C to G) from jumping an octave. My tech took the microtuner apart and applied heavy grease to the threads but it only helped for a day or two. Anything else worth trying? I don't plan on using the microtuner but I'd rather not permanently alter the horn if I can avoid it.

[Swingtone]

Hate to break it to you, but horns in the 220,xxx range are not Transitionals; those are up in the 240,xxx-260,xxx range.

What you have there is a Conn New Wonder II (aka Chu Berry); with that said, however, that's a GREAT horn (or will be once you restore it). Enjoy!

[DavyRay]

I think I found the source of some of my problems. The microtuner is leaking. In addition to the low warble, I always feel like I have to fight to keep the middle register (mainly middle C to G) from jumping an octave. My tech took the microtuner apart and applied heavy grease to the threads but it only helped for a day or two. Anything else worth trying? I don't plan on using the microtuner but I'd rather not permanently alter the horn if I can avoid it.

Do you have the microtuner adjusted all the way in one direction? Probably the shortest? That would work best with most mouthpieces. I will look at one I have to see if I can suggest a fix.

[jicaino]

glue the nasty contraption together using mild or medium torque thread locker from loctite. It will come appart fine if you ever want to open that can of worms again. Geez with conn's microtuners, it has to be the longest production run of such an ill conceived device!

[Burma Jones]

Do you have the microtuner adjusted all the way in one direction? Probably the shortest? That would work best with most mouthpieces. I will look at one I have to see if I can suggest a fix.

Yes, I keep it screwed all the way in. Thanks!


glue the nasty contraption together using mild or medium torque thread locker from loctite. It will come appart fine if you ever want to open that can of worms again. Geez with conn's microtuners, it has to be the longest production run of such an ill conceived device!

Yeah!:twisted: I'm glad someone else shares my distaste for it. I hadn't thought about thread locker. Thanks for the advice.

[DavyRay]

glue the nasty contraption together using mild or medium torque thread locker from loctite. It will come appart fine if you ever want to open that can of worms again. Geez with conn's microtuners, it has to be the longest production run of such an ill conceived device!

I was thinking of silicone gel, but could not find a brand name to recommend. I was also thinking of a way to sleeve the neck to isolate the entire mechanism, so to avoid blowing spit through it. 'Nasty' is the right word. I took the one apart from a straight-neck c-mel. Don't see how to keep it from filling up with gunk.

[Burma Jones]

I was thinking of silicone gel, but could not find a brand name to recommend. I was also thinking of a way to sleeve the neck to isolate the entire mechanism, so to avoid blowing spit through it. 'Nasty' is the right word. I took the one apart from a straight-neck c-mel. Don't see how to keep it from filling up with gunk.

That sounds like a good idea. It really makes perfect sense but I don't know how it would be done. Saran wrap? :D

[bruce bailey]

Leaks don't happen in the threads. You need to remover the small screw, work the large nut out and pull it apart. Then you can grease the sliding part insid the neck. I rarely find them leaking, only stuck. The gurggle down low is just part of some horns. a small baffle glued inside the bow will fix it. For now, drop a mouthpiece cap down the bell and see the difference.

[jicaino]

My friend Bruce, I respectfully disagree with you here. Evidently we have came across different states of "worn" for 'da "nastee contraption" (the piece formerly known as microtuner). Microtuners are built this way: you have a male thread affixed to the stump of a neck. That thread has machined slots so some guides that are integral part of the tubing slides thru the recessed areas, therefore permitting the ill conceived mechanism to screw and unscrew maintaining the relative position of the insert (the prosthetic part for the stumpy neck) The tiny screw only holds the casing wich has machined female threads almost all the way long. When this is worn, most of the air escapes thru the worn out insert outer walls, and thru the machined guides and slots. You can't sucessfully cover this with any kind of gooey lube and expect it to be airtight for more than a couple of weeks at the most.

Thread locker offers a drastical solution but still removable. All you have to do is dismantle, clean in mineral spirits, dry, goop up with thread locker, assemble to your preferred relative position, and let it cure. Thread locker is like silicone has a number of advantages over silicone, the main being it doens't fume acetic acid.

[BlueTrane2028]

Aside from feeling a bit wobbly, my 26M's microtuner has been nothing short of a blessing to me. I actually use it. I push on all the way and tune with the threads.

No gurgle, no leak, no worries.

That said, I can see potential future problems with it. I love my horn enough to the point where I'm slowly putting money into a "Gloger neck for my 26M" account, so that if/when the tuner fails, I'll be able to keep enjoying it.

Conn NWII saxes like yours are plentiful, you should be able to source a replacement neck if it comes down to it.

Another option: Try backing the tuner out a couple turns. The threads may be worn less a few turns away from all the way on.

[bruce bailey]

On mine, the only potential for leaks that I see are inside the neck where the tubes slide.
NOW, what about the tuner on the Bueschers? Are those the same? Actually I have seen photos on ebay but never seen one "live". I see a Conn-Buescher debate brewing here!!! I use the tuner on my NW all the time and love it.

[BOPITY FUNK]

glue the nasty contraption together using mild or medium torque thread locker from loctite. It will come appart fine if you ever want to open that can of worms again. Geez with conn's microtuners, it has to be the longest production run of such an ill conceived device!

I have used plumbers teflon tape(PFTE) a number of times on these to very good effect
Regards BF

[Burma Jones]

I tested the neck by taking off the octave key, covering the pip and tenon, submerging in water and blowing into the mouthpipe. The bubbles that come out of the microtuner are on the bottom of the neck; the side opposite of the octave pip. This is where the metal flap on the mouthpipe enters the neck (and also where the threads on the neck are fewer). I think I'm going to give the thread locker a try.


I have used plumbers teflon tape(PFTE) a number of times on these to very good effect
Regards BF

That sounds like a good idea. Did you put the teflon tape on the threads or on the tube that slides in the neck?