Bright tenor piece? Recomendations?

[Paul S]

Hi all

As those of you I've had the pleasure of chatting with will know, I've been on trail of a dark tenor sound for the last 2 years or so. I have found great happiness with the JodyJazz ESP 120....lovely piece.....defintely will keep as my main tool.

That said, I've got a studio session with a rock band in May and think it might be smart to get one bright piece to have for this kind of situation. :twisted: I'm also curious as I've never really played anything but the large bore, low baffle type of piece.

I play a early aristocrat tenor, so may need to be careful of tuning with very small chamber pieces?

I've been thinking of maybe a dukoff D chamber (if can find a good one it seems), Guardala Studio (expensive but will always get your money back), Berg 130/0, or maybe even a Lawton BB (pref brass and 8* or bigger. I had a stainless 7* which didn't really like)

I like Breckers tone on Two Blocks from the Edge and also like early Grover - don't really know many other bright, modern players - oh, except Bill Evans - great soulful sound!

Any suggestions/offers? I have a great berg 125/3 SMS and an Early babbit HR 7 Link worked on by Theo to offer as trade or part trade?

drop me a line salvag_p@mtn.co.za

[Subtone Sam]

Paul,I´m glad the ESP works for you.For a bright mpc,try the Studio.Very good piece for rock/pop stuff.Expensive but worth the money,imo.

[Paul S]

thanks Sam! Had a nice gig with the ESP.....listened to the recording that was done of it and realised just how dark this sounds on recording (without the spoiler i should add).... Lovely warm, fat sound!

Nefertiti gave me the same advice on the Studio. Do you know what the tip size is on these? Do you prefer the gold or silver plate?

[Subtone Sam]

Tip is around .118.I haven´t tried the silverplated but usually goldplate adds a bit of warmth into the sound.Try Saxofoonwinkel,Bill Lewington or saxophones.co.uk.These might still have the Studios.

[Paul S]

Do these come with ligature? would the ESP rovner be the right size?

What reeds do u like? unfiled i imagine?

wwbw still has these - going to order on trial from them.

many thanks :D

[Subtone Sam]

Paul,they come with standard two screw lig. and a cap.The lig actually works quite well with the piece.ESP Rovner will be a little too big,I use Eddie Daniels Rovner on it (the one with two plates).I use LaVoz mediums on my Studio,works well indeed.Good Luck!

[Paul S]

Thanks again Sam! Can't tell you how much I appreciate having experienced guys like you and Nefertiti around who are prepared to share your knowledge :D

I have ordered a goldplated Studio on trial from WWBW. For anyone interested, they have 11 of these left (and a few silvers) at $365. Having seen what Guardala's are going for on ebay, I'd say latching onto one of these could just be a really good investment! Obviously not as valuable as the hand made ones, but you're still not going to lose money IMHO.

I stand to be corrected, but I don't think dave is still making pieces at this time due to some unfortunate business difficulties?

what's that strange bloated feeling :shock: .......oh no........ its GAS :oops:

[Balladeer]

Paul S:
If you truly like the ESP, then why change embouchures? Use the ESP with the baffle in, find a lig that gives the brightest sound, and use a bright/buzzy reed.

I found a combination of ESP (.110) w/spoiler, RJS unfiled 3S, Rovner Mk III that produces a tone very similar to Gerald Albright's tenor sound on "Cold Duck Time". Also, I take a bit more mouthpiece in my mouth than I would when playing smokey subtones.

[Paul S]

hi Balladeer

I don't really get much of a difference with or without the spoiler - a little bit, but not night and day.(no pun intended)

I'm using RJS 2H's on the ESP and its just great for most situations, but I'm still pretty dark. I guess I could try take in some more mouthpiece, use less bottom lip etc, but don't really want to mess with my embouchure. Actually its only since i started doing session and recording stuff that I realised just how dark I am. Was doing mostly acoustic gigs in small intimate, venues..

I doubt the studio will become my main piece, but i want to try a really bright roaring piece just to experience it. Part of the fun of trying new pieces for me is that every now and then, the new piece will do something or give me a sound I've not gotten before - for me this opens the door to a new colour or emotion in my playing. I am concerned that I am developing into a player that can play warm, pretty, swinging stuff pretty well, but don't ask me to really let rip!! I don't have that vocabulary or sound - maybe trying a real bright piece and doing some brecker or evans transcriptions will help me down that road.

I know that one should really stick to one piece and make it do what you want, but heck.......new mouthpieces are such fun :)

besides how can i call myself a modern tenor player and not at least have tried a guardala! :P

After this one......i promise I'll stop..........honest...........no problem..............any time i want.............just got to say "NO"...............easy................. :wink:

[JL]

Paul,
For a big, bright, roaring sound, I think you are right to try something other than the ESP. I don't think the ESP was designed for that kind of sound. At the risk of further GAS, I'd suggest a Sugal SG II copper mpc. This mouthpiece will really rip on your Aristocrat tenor....at least it does on mine. Unfortunately, the price tag is rather steep for Sugals, unless you can find a used one. Good luck in your search.

[Bootman]

Sugal are softer than Lawtons or JJ ESP's. I would try for a Lawton and see how that grabs you. The Guardala Super King is also very much over the top on a Bueshcer.

[Paul S]

thanks guys...

bootman, i know that you favour the Lawton on the Aristocrat - maybe i'll keep my eye on ebay for a open Lawton BB in brass - ideally think I'd like a 9 or maybe even 9*. Need to sell some stuff first though

I'm going to try the studio and see how that goes - did u ever try one on your aristocrat?

[Balladeer]

I agree with JL. A Sugal Super Gonz II is bright, full and EXTREMELY loud. I have owned both at the same time. So, I can say that the SGII is much louder than the ESP. The Sugal has a wide body - a little wider than a Link STM. The ESP is very narrow. The embouchure muscles work different on the sides.

The Super Gonz I is a bit less bright - more like a bright Link. But both the SGI and SGII are very full sounding pieces (unlike Dukoff). Personally, I prefer the Sugal Super Gonz's to the ESP. For me, there's too little spread in the low notes with the ESP. Either SGI or SGII can be found on eBay for $170-$250.

[Frank D]

Paul S, I think you chose wisely with the Studio. It will take you in a Breckerish direction, and will definitely work in a Rock/R&B context while still being playable in other situations. I really like the way mine plays with a Winslow ligature, but the Selmer metal lig works well also.

[Subtone Sam]

Yep,I have to agree with that.After trying (too) many pieces,the Studio is still the number one in my book for rock/pop stuff and works as an all-around piece too.No mouthpiece is perfect but Studio is almost there :mrgreen:

[super20dan]

your crat will tune well with any mpc.(unlike most vintage tenors). no one has mentioned the runyon quantum yet . (plastic) another great extremly bright plastic mpc is the lakey 8*3

[Chris-Sax]

FrankD, What model winslow lig do you use that fits your DG Studio? i have a studio and am currently looking for a winslow for it? Also do you know where i would get one? i cant get them anywhere in the u.k?
Thanks Chris!! 8)

[Frank D]

Chris-sax, I bought the Winslow so long ago I don't really know what size it is. I was in Manny's in LA and told him I was disappointed with the Studio (after waiting 6 months to get it), and he said "try this" and put a Winslow on it. It made such a dramatic difference I bought it on the spot w/o asking any questions!

Check the Ligatures thread for info regarding availability. I think someone listed some places in Europe that have them available by mail.

Again, I'd strongly urge you to try a Selmer metal as well. They're readily available and less than 1/2 the price of the Winslow. I think if I had found the Selmer first, I wouldn't have kept looking. I don't understand what's so special about these ligs, they just look like an ordinary metal lig, but I've found them to be extremely responsive on both the DG Studio and my metal Link.

[Alan K]

Correct me, if I am wrong. The current guardala mouthpieces are made by WWBW not guardala.

[Paul S]

Hi Alan

I'd be very surprised if WWBW actually made these. I'm pretty sure that Dave has manufactured all of these himself.... only change been that the recent ones are laser-trimmed and not hand made/finished. From what I can glean from the experiences of others on this forum, this has had no negative impact on the quality of the pieces.

To my knowledge WWBW are simply a retailer of his pieces, like they are for link, berg, ponzol, sugal, etc.....

I'll be sure to write back when I receive mine - can't wait to see if all the fuss about guardala pieces is justified! I can say without reserve that the ESP i have defintely justifies the fuss......awesome piece if you like a dark to medium fat clear tone.

[Alan K]

Paul, I found it, check out Dr. G's post on -> New Product Announcements.

[Paul S]

Thanks for that Alan......very concerning :(

i just got off the phone with WWBW and was assured by the person that I spoke to that they are not producting anything at the moment (she was unaware that they might be able to) and that the ones they are selling are definitely the last of stock bought from Dave.

I hope this is the truth :? I personally have no interest in buying a mouthpiece branded Dave Guardala if he was not involved in producing or managing the quality. In fact, I find the very concept downright dishonest!! If I'm paying for the good name Dave has spent decades creating, then i want to know that he is involved..... If someone else is just using his design and name, then I think they should be obliged to disclose that Dave himself is not involved :?:

[Subtone Sam]

Paul,in my knowledge WW&BW has nothing to do with the manufacturing of the Guardala lazer-trimmed mpcs,they just sell them.I talked to few dealers when I purchased mine and all of them said that they get these mouthpieces from Dave Guardala directly.Nothing in the box that comes with the mouthpiece says that WW&BW has anything to do with the manufacturing either,it says "made by Dave Guardala in the USA".Anyway,the great thing about the lazer-trimmed pieces is that they are VERY consistent;I´ve had 3 of them and all of them extremely well made.

[Subtone Sam]

OK,I read Dr.Gs post on the New Products Announcements and maybe I´m partly wrong;maybe WW&BW makes them these days? Anyway,mine was purchased last summer and not from WW&BW but in Europe,so I believe mine are still made by Guardala himself.Paul S., you could try to order one from SaxofoonWinkel,Bill Lewington UK or Howarths in London.All these should still have the "old" lazer-trimmed models made by Guardala himself.Its a good idea to ask I think;personally I would not pay such a price for a mouthpiece that was not manufactured (or supervised) by Dave himself because quality is likely to suffer when made by non-specialist.Anyway,$365 is a good price,I paid quite a bit more for mine.

[MojoBari]

It seems a shame that DG is not supervising his line, but we do not know the details of everything that has gone down. Most players seem to like the laser trimmed pieces as well as the older hand made ones.

Arnold Brilhart could not make pieces under his own name later in his career. I presume he sold rights to it for a bundle.

[JL]

Paul asked about a bright, loud piece. I suspect that many of the suggestions here would work fine. Bootman, this is the first time I think you've said anything I disagree with, but I can say with certainty that the Sugal SG II plays with considerably more volume than an ESP. I spent about a week comparing the two and that was one of the major differences between them. Which is not to say the Sugal is any better.....I found the ESP to have a clearer tone and better low-register response, but not nearly the volume. Of course, this is only based my own experience. I've been surprised to find that the longer I play a Jaguar I recently purchased (on Bootman's excellent suggestion), the more volume and brightness I seem able to generate with it. The Jag does seem to have the power of the Sugal, although quite a different sound.

[super20dan]

as far as i know bootman hasnt ever played a sugal 2 .if he had he wouldnt have posted that statement. i play one on tenor and its the best rock &roll mpc i have ever played. its as loud and bright as any mpc on the market

[Paul S]

I've talked to WWBW as well as saxophones.co.uk. Nobody is aware of WWBW actually making them yet.... seems they may have the rights to do this, but WWBW themselves asure me that the stock they have is the stock they got from dave. I'm inclined to believe them.....in part because i don't think setting up or running a mouthpiece manufacturing operation is that simple ....... seems unlikely they would do this without serious consideration?

They're also a reputable bunch and doubt they would BS me on the origin of the pieces - would seriously damage their credibility if this was found to be untrue.

[Paul S]

Hi Folks :P

At last! I got the studio! At first glance its clearly very well made, narrow throught the body, has a large step baffle and a smaller chamber than I've seen before.

Some real surpises! :-
- Its bright, but not THAT bright. With a RJS 3M (tried filed and unfiled) its very flexible and actually quite warm at lower volume. Defintely not as bright a the stainless 7*bb lawton i had. It also doesn't have that lawton super clear core sound.
- the lower register is great, especially subtones! I expected to sacrifice a bit down here
- Although its .118, it needs harder reeds - guess this is because of the high baffle
- can you say altissimo? holy cow! unlike anything I've tried before - strong, easy, clear altissimo - awesome!

I am living in a small apartment at the moment (move into a house 1 May - can't wait!), so can't really let rip, but can tell there volume a plenty. Need to really give it a full work out to hear the tone across a range of dynamics. At lower volumes its full, warm, medium rather than bright. I'm sure it'll brighten up at volume though

Its small in the mouth with quite a low beak angle. It requires very little embouchure pressure - I need to adjust to this loose emboucher style of playing.

This is a very easy playing mouthpiece that i look forward to playing a lot in the coming weeks. I can see why DG pieces are so well respected.... I'm even considering this a my Jazz piece so far.

I'm setting myself up for some home recording, so will try do some clips in the coming weeks.

[coolsax_ca]

I play on standard Yas-23 alto. I currently have a (about a .61 tip opening) Rosseau mouthpiece. It's great for classical and and some mellow blues, but I'm looking for something that has the capabilities of projecting a little more, still dark but with a little more edge, for more of the jazz and blues stuff only. Would a Link be sutible, a Meyer, Vandorean V16...I'm at a loss. Looking for a good Redman sound on alto, or of that sort.

[Paul S]

coolsax - the classic alto jazz sound (think cannonball, phil woods, etc) is the Meyer HR 5M (about .070). Obviosuly the vintage NY and Meyer Bros pieces are probably better, but the new ones are not bad IMO on alto.

I personally like .075 size for alto. (meyer 6 or so) I would try get to a store and try a few: maybe Meyer, Vandoren V16, Otto link HR, Bari HR (i really liked this), Berg HR... Maybe try a metal Berg, Link and even a Dukoff (if you really like that bright, Sanborn thing).

Its a good idea to try as many pieces as you can, but then settle on one (unlike me!). You need to give a new pieces 2 weeks of trial before really making a call on it. A good tip that I've recently come to appreciate is - Just leave one piece in your case so you're not tempted to chop and change constantly comparing. Play the new piece a bit, once you're comfortable with it have one session of comparison - record this if you can - and make a decision.

u might want to start a new thread to discuss this, and go look at the alto section, as your question might get lost/ignored inside this topic.

good luck 8)
Paul

[coolsax_ca]

Thanks Paul

[Scottysax73]

how are the rico royal graphtonites??? Ive heard they are bright and great for R&B stuff. Ayone know???

[shmuelyosef]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the Lamberson pieces. I have 7SB pieces for both alto and bari; both are great for the R&B soul stuff I do...I have been looking for a used tenor SB for a while. They are remarkably adaptable, the alto plays as well on a Buescher Aristocrat as it does on a King Zephyr or a Keilwerth stencil from the '80's. They have small, short wedge baffles with relatively large open chambers, but seem to have very efficient facings as they are extremely loud if pushed, but mellow if you want. I have no personal experience, but have heard that the DDs are similarly versatile, but louder and with more projection. The bread for a new one is only slightly more than an eBay Sugal or Guardala.

[soulysax]

Have to go with a Lawton BB on this one. I have a gold plated brass 8*. What a great piece. Cuts thru everything. Yet it plays easy even in the basement. I sold my Guardala Brecker because this one played so much easier!!! :wink: :wink:

I would say this is not an everyday piece. Use it for Rock and R/B. You will want something else for your jazz work. I do agree the studio would be a good all purpose piece if you only want one.

Personally I belive in the right equipment for the intended sound. I use a King Super 20 with the Lawton for pop and a Selmer Mark VI for Jazz. This just makes sense to me. R/B is different than Jazz. We know classical cats use other horn/mouthpiece combos than jazzers. Why not do the same for R/B and Jazz?