phil barone mps

[rockstar]

what's everyone's opinion for these mouthpieces? are they worth the prices listed on the website? philbarone.com i've never played one, but i'm tempted to buy a contemporary tenor sax mp. any advice is welcomed. thanks
rock n roll
matt

[jjgold]

Matt...I suggest you call Phil....he gets a bad rap but is actually a pretty cool character. I play his pieces on alto, bari, and sop.

[Stencilman]

he gets a bad rap but is actually a pretty cool character.
Where and why does he get a bad rap? Is it because he is out advertising on forums and the newsgroups?

It seems like anytime someone participates in an open forum that has a good product and/or good services for the sax community (SaxGourmet, MusicMedic, Phil B., etc.), they get shot down for pushing their wares. I owe a lot to the three mentioned above for their products, services and fantastic advice.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!

[Morry]

I play one of his metal tenor pieces, and have one of his HR alto pieces. They are well made pieces, although the tenor piece is a little rough finished on the inside. My only comment would be that I would purchase them via WWBW or some retailer with a return policy. Pieces bought from Phil on ebay are "as is", and pieces bought directly from him, can be swapped, but not returned.

[Jazzsums]

I have a Barone Jazz 8 in route to me as this is being written.
I have been on a search to replace my main piece; a Link 8* Florida.
The Link and I are showing our age and I'm hoping the Barone will speak with the same authority, using a bit less airstream.
This is the piece Phil recommended to me. He seems like a man who knows his craft.
I will keep you posted as I learn the piece.
Dave Summers 8)

[Gregg W. Jackson]

rockstar, I own four Phil Barone mouthpieces and an Otto Link that he customized for me. Every one of these mouthpieces works beautifully for me.

Are they worth the prices that Phil charges? I think so, but that's my opinion. I know that there are people who believe that no one should pay more than $100 for a mouthpiece and there are others who would happily pay far more than Phil's prices for a mouthpiece that they love.

As far as Phil's reputation, I have have say first that I've become a friend of Phil's as a result of getting to know him as a customer of his. And I'll say that Phil is a very intense guy and that some people aren't comfortable with that. But he is also one of the nicest people that I have ever known.

Other than buying from WW&BW, another good way to increase your chances of being a happy customer of Phil's is to call him up and talk to him about what you want or, better yet, visit him in New York if you can get there. The first time that I dealt with Phil, I wanted a specific model of mouthpiece in an extreme tip opening. Phil nicely but bluntly told me that I shouldn't get that mouthpiece, that I'd be happy with a more moderate model in a more moderate tip opening. I took his advice and bought the best mouthpiece that I've ever owned.

The next year I visited Phil and tried out mouthpieces, including the one that I wanted to buy originally. It just didn't work for me. If I hadn't listened to Phil and I had bought that mouthpiece, I wouldn't have been happy.

[Andrew]

Just email him...he's a GREAT guy. I played on his pieces exclusively until I found the "elusive" mouthpiece...I found THE mouthpiece for me, and really, nothing will beat that mouthpiece. But before I found it, his mouthpieces were my primary pieces.

[Noel Mac]

I bought a alto jazz model (HR) from him off of ebay for $90. I love it. It is probably one of the best alto mouthpieces I have ever played. But I don't think I would be willing to pay what he asks for his metal pieces :shock: . For the prices he is asking for his bari pieces they better make you play like a virtuoso. But if the prices were lower I think I would have several.

I know his website kind of puts me off a little. The "masters" portion especially. Although he doesn't say that all of those players use his pieces it seems like he has designed it to make you think they do.

I am not trying to bash Barone like it seems a lot of people do. I just don't know if any mouthpiece is worth the kind of money he asks. But I guess everyone's got to make a living. I think it just comes down to whether or not you think the mouthpiece is worth that much for you.

[jd]

ive had a few of his pieces. the tenor fusion and the contemporary. both real good pieces. al though im currently on a dukoff i think his pieces are very good. ive also tried a metal alto and everything that i tried was very playable.

[rockstar]

thanks everyone for the comments. i think i will give phil a call and see what he has to say. if there are others out there with opinions, please keep them coming. hey jd, if you're not using the barone mouthpieces, are you willing to sell them? i may be interested.
rock n roll
matt

[jd]

[rollen]

anyone playing the Traditional/Contemporary on soprano?

[Tears June]

There are many different model from Phil Barone, I would like to know which tenor model you think is most close to a Vintage Florida metal Link ?

I'm looking for a tenor MPC, big, fat, rich, thick & lush sound. Slightly dark but not dull. Some MPC can produce very drak sound but dull. Do you think their Hollywood, New York or Jazz is such type of Link sound (Dexter's sound)?

:cry:

[Morry]

I think my Barone metal Jazz piece is very Link like, but with a little "raw" edge to it. It was a good fit for my old YTS-875B, but I don't like it on my JK that much.

[Tears June]

I think my Barone metal Jazz piece is very Link like, but with a little "raw" edge to it. It was a good fit for my old YTS-875B, but I don't like it on my JK that much.

Morry,
Does Barone Jazz model sounds very dark, without any edge, difficult on the altissimo notes compare with other models?

What do you mean 'Raw" edge? You mean still quite brilliance?

:cry:

[barisaxbeast]

Got one on alto and sop, both rubber. Just got a rubber one for the wife for her tenor ( got a feeling she might be losing that tho...)Got one of his 7* standard tenor pieces for sale, blown twice . Going on eBay soon unless sold before. I think they are the dogs dangley bits!!!! (Thats a compliment over here, by the way!!) Got his necks on alto, tenor and bari, too.Cant fault them. I think his eBay prices are cheap, so get in quick!!! Regards G

[J.Max]

Phil's a great guy...but he doesn't mince words. If something sucks, he'll tell you, and he doesn't have time to be eloquent and florid about why it sucks.

His mouthpieces are great, BTW. I have a 7* Standard Tenor piece that blows very well, and it's kind of Link-like, with a bit more edge.

[barisaxbeast]

anyone playing the Traditional/Contemporary on soprano?

No, but playing one his vintage pieces on sop. A cross between a Meyer and Selmer. Couldn't get on with a Meyer and found Selmers ok but a bit "sweet" (to legit for what I wanted) Very pleased with the Barone, nice round phat sound and a joy to blow. Regards G ("the beast")

[Phil Barone]

There are many different model from Phil Barone, I would like to know which tenor model you think is most close to a Vintage Florida metal Link ?

I'm looking for a tenor MPC, big, fat, rich, thick & lush sound. Slightly dark but not dull. Some MPC can produce very drak sound but dull. Do you think their Hollywood, New York or Jazz is such type of Link sound (Dexter's sound)?

:cry:

Try a NY, Hollywood, or Jazz model. Call the Woodwind & Brasswind. I'm not taking anymore orders because I'm overwhelmed and for what I make on a metal mouthpiece, it's not worth it. Takes hours and hours plus expenses. My CNC machine was very costly. People think I gouge but if the knew what went into them they'd feel differently. I'm not much of a pusher on the NG's because of what I just said and I'd gladly recommend you to someone else but I think the state of the mouthpiece market it awful. I want everyone to sound differently but everything easily available will make you sound like everyone else. Think about the differences between Trane, Dex, Sonny etc. and how differently they sounded on virtually the same mouthpieces, Links. You can't say that of today’s players. Everyone sounds the same to me these days but I attribute part of that by the way jazz is taught. There's too much transcription and no encouraging young player to shoot for something totally unique without going astray. I studied with Sal Mosca, he suggested that all his students go into psychotherapy to find oneself but you can do other things too. Meditation, praying, studying philosophy. You have to learn how to think outside of the box and that’s not done with the horn. Phil

[J.Max]

Try a NY, Hollywood, or Jazz model. Call the Woodwind & Brasswind. I'm not taking anymore orders because I'm overwhelmed and for what I make on a metal mouthpiece, it's not worth it. Takes hours and hours plus expenses. My CNC machine was very costly. People think I gouge but if the knew what went into them they'd feel differently. I'm not much of a pusher on the NG's because of what I just said and I'd gladly recommend you to someone else but I think the state of the mouthpiece market it awful. I want everyone to sound differently but everything easily available will make you sound like everyone else. Think about the differences between Trane, Dex, Sonny etc. and how differently they sounded on virtually the same mouthpieces, Links. You can't say that of today’s players. Everyone sounds the same to me these days but I attribute part of that by the way jazz is taught. There's too much transcription and no encouraging young player to shoot for something totally unique without going astray. I studied with Sal Mosca, he suggested that all his students go into psychotherapy to find oneself but you can do other things too. Meditation, praying, studying philosophy. You have to learn how to think outside of the box and that’s not done with the horn. Phil

A couple of interesting comments by Phil here that lead to questions...

1. You say to order your pieces from WWBW, but you aren't taking orders. Are the ones from WWBW similar to the Guardalas that they sell, in that they are your designs, but made on a CNC machine and "laser trimmed"? (I'd assume that the ones that you make are hand finished)

2. Why not farm the manufacture of the blanks out to someone else and then hand finish them yourself? You'd make more money and still maintain reasonable quality control. Be less work too.

3. I agree 100% with what you are saying about "today's jazz students" but I think that they have the opposite problem. Too much theory and not enough listening! When I studied (in the early to mid 90s), I took some jazz theory classes, and I couldn't believe the stuff that the professor wanted me to memorize. It was ridiculous. I asked, "What about using your ear?" I was told that if you knew all of the theory you didn't need to use an ear. I asked "What about transcription of solos?" I was told that I could do it, but only to copy licks. I said "Shouldn't I try to find my own voice?" I was told that I could find my own voice after I memorized the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Stupid. I wonder how much of that kind of stuff still goes on, and I wonder how much of that has really stymied the evolution of jazz.

[gary]

1. You say to order your pieces from WWBW, but you aren't taking orders.
Well I'm curious about this suggestion, too. I had a Hollywood on order from ww&bw for over half a year, maybe longer and finally gave up. If Phil's priority are direct orders from customers and his platter is full, how is he going to make mpcs for ww&bw to sell?

3. I asked, "What about using your ear?" I was told that if you knew all of the theory you didn't need to use an ear. I asked "What about transcription of solos?" I was told that I could do it, but only to copy licks. I said "Shouldn't I try to find my own voice?" I was told that I could find my own voice after I memorized the Charlie Parker Omnibook.
Truly unfortunate and that instructor, as reported by you, had that attitude no wonder his students, at least, came out somewhat cloned. That's really bad. OTOH I want to point out that that has been the diametric opposite of my experience, where individuality was encouraged and nurtured.

[Balladeer]

I have a Barone Hollywood Ltd 8* on trial from WWBW. I will be sending it back to WWBW this weekend. Though the tip opening is an 8* the mouthpiece is not hard to play with a 2 1/2 to 3 reed. So, if you have been curious about these pieces as I was, place your order.

[Scottysax73]

I tried to order to Barones from WW&B but they were out of the contemporary and traditional/contemporary. Anybody familiar w/ these pieces?
Phils a great guy. I met him years ago with the recommendation of Ralph Bowen. He is an eccentric guy and amazingly passionate about his work.

[wrb]

I have the T/C in an 8. I really like it, and currently is my co favorite piece, the other being a 1940 ish Berg. I can play softly or loud and stay in tune in the bottom and up high. I find it easy for the altissimo notes, and I am able to make the sounds smooth and silky or with edge.

Try em, tou'll like em.

Randy

[jazaddict]

I have a Hollywood 7 thats been opened by some other MPC tech. I got it from Bodhi here; its prolly 5 or 6 years old. Its VERY nice playing, a bit brighter than a metal link, but certainly in that vein. I suspect its like any piece; try 'em first cause they're all a schoshe different.

[mountainman]

I recently tested a metal Barone from WWBW after waiting 6 months. After all that they sent a 7 instead of a 7*. I was comparing it to a very good stock NY link 7* and a MOJO improved NY 7*.

I found,as expected, that the sound was very near the Link NY. It had excellent playability with a little less volume than the Links. The tone was more refined with a little less edge. It did not give me enough extra over the two good Links to justify it's purchase, but I do consider it an excellent mouthpiece.

P.S. If it had been a 7* I probably would have kept it, but I no longer order anything from WWBW unless it's in stock! The promise dates keep moving.

[Gregg W. Jackson]

Scottysax73 -- I own a Phil Barone Contemporary 8*. It's a great rock 'n' roll piece, bright, edgy, and loud. I use it with a Rico Plasticover baritone reed and it's right on the money for a classic rock sound.

You might also consider Phil's Fusion. It's a little more mellow than the Contemporary, which gives it more range. In my opinion, the Fusion is almost as good as the Contemporary for rock 'n' roll and it's more versatile across a range of styles.

[sessionsax]

My favorite of Phils pieces were the mpcs he made during the Precision Crafted days. The are basically Guardala copies and the are fabulous. I have tried several of the newer designs and haven't found one to my liking, but the Precision Crafted Contemporary is still my main tenor piece.

I also really liked a Hollywood that I tried, but it is too dark for the work I do.

[dstack79]

There are many different model from Phil Barone, I would like to know which tenor model you think is most close to a Vintage Florida metal Link ?

I'm looking for a tenor MPC, big, fat, rich, thick & lush sound. Slightly dark but not dull. Some MPC can produce very drak sound but dull. Do you think their Hollywood, New York or Jazz is such type of Link sound (Dexter's sound)?

:cry:

I have the HR Vintage Model #7 on tenor. It's one of the most versatile, rich, easy playing mpcs I've ever tried. Very flexible and playable. This sounds like what you want...When setup w/ a great reed, it can be really loud if you need it to. You wont have any trouble being heard, but it's still darkish. I think it's only $165 too, more than fair IMHO.

[Phil Barone]

A couple of interesting comments by Phil here that lead to questions...

1. You say to order your pieces from WWBW, but you aren't taking orders. Are the ones from WWBW similar to the Guardalas that they sell, in that they are your designs, but made on a CNC machine and "laser trimmed"? (I'd assume that the ones that you make are hand finished)

2. Why not farm the manufacture of the blanks out to someone else and then hand finish them yourself? You'd make more money and still maintain reasonable quality control. Be less work too.

3. I agree 100% with what you are saying about "today's jazz students" but I think that they have the opposite problem. Too much theory and not enough listening! When I studied (in the early to mid 90s), I took some jazz theory classes, and I couldn't believe the stuff that the professor wanted me to memorize. It was ridiculous. I asked, "What about using your ear?" I was told that if you knew all of the theory you didn't need to use an ear. I asked "What about transcription of solos?" I was told that I could do it, but only to copy licks. I said "Shouldn't I try to find my own voice?" I was told that I could find my own voice after I memorized the Charlie Parker Omnibook. Stupid. I wonder how much of that kind of stuff still goes on, and I wonder how much of that has really stymied the evolution of jazz.

I've been trying for years to find someone to produce my blanks and probablyspent 20 -30 thousand dollars in doing so. I'm at the point in my life that I's rather work on myself than mouthpieces. I'm not taking any orders from players except for hard rubber pieces. I have LOTS of back orders from the Woodwind and will continue to take their orders. I just can't deal with individuals anymore because it takes too much time but I'm always happy to help individuals with questions. Phil 212-686-9410

[Phil Barone]

I forgot to mention that I have a batch of New York models I'm working on now so if you want a NY model, now is the time. Oh, and as far as my bad rap is considered, I only rap if I really need the money and them I'll only do gangsta rap. And, it has to consist of lots of gossip. I call it Ganstagop. Phil

[sessionsax]

Phil,

Send me a link to your Ganstagop CD, I would buy that :)

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

Send me a link to your Ganstagop CD, I would buy that :)

Ganstagop?

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

Send me a link to your Ganstagop CD, I would buy that :)

I haven't gotten a record deal yet but you can hear it on newsgroups a lot. Phil

[ving]

Phil, if you don't mind me asking, do you have enough orders to make a living or are you doing other things on the side? I know its a tough business, but I was curious how mouthpiece makers make it work.

[Phil Barone]

Phil, if you don't mind me asking, do you have enough orders to make a living or are you doing other things on the side? I know its a tough business, but I was curious how mouthpiece makers make it work.

Well, the market sucks and is filled with garbage. The best things readily available are still a metal Link on tenor and a rubber for alto. This is for Jazz playing of course.

I have health problems so I'm limited as to how much work I can do but when you've been doing it as long as I have then I think a person could make a living. The product doesn't have much do do with it. I know of outrigh mouthpieces that are crap and they comapnies are busy as cas be. About the best substitute for a metal Link is a SR Legend and their plastic piece but the plastic pieces could use some work. There was another post asking if I still do facing, the answer is yes. I can work miracles with Links and Meyers provided the player knows how to produce a good sound to begin with and knows what he wants. Just knowing what you want is hard. Phil 212-686-9410

[les]

The thing that gave jazz players "of old" their personality, which they all seemed to have in abundance, is what many people and critics, then and now, called "flaws." Think of Coltrane, Sonny and Mike brecker for instance. They all transcribed (memorized really) solos, yet each person had notable flaws in their playing, at least occasionally. Trane's sound and time were heavily criticized, even today, Sonny's sense of humor seems to offend some as much as entertain others, and Mike Brecker got NO respect from established jazz players for many years because of his time, his sound, and his chops. The problem with a lot of jazz I hear these days, is that you can't tell who is playing most of the time. Whenever I hear __________ He sounds like someone else. Whenever I hear___________ I notice how perfect he is but not much else. And that's when the radio DJ TELLS me who it was.
Think of the flaws of Stan Getz or Lester Young. They were both excoriated for their "*****" playing, yet they are remembered as two of our greatest players. Personality is found as much in the flaws and sometimes off-putting idiosyncracies as it is in the choice of notes. There are however, many players who are long on personality yet have little depth in their musical content (choice of notes, rhythm etc..) Too bad we can't bio-engineer a composite of these two types of players.
The culture that nurtured and produced unique jazzers is gone. Dead. I doubt if we will hear anything like them again. I hope I'm wrong.

[Phil Barone]

The thing that gave jazz players "of old" their personality, which they all seemed to have in abundance, is what many people and critics, then and now, called "flaws."

Yeah, that was definitely part of it but also, when they were improvising completely, they were taking chances which also caused some flaws. I like it when I hear a mistake when someone like Sonny is really reaching. I heard once that he was playing in England and had a couple of days off before he had to play so he stayed in his hotel room and just watched TV. When it came time for the concert, he played a lot of themes from the TV commercials he heard. Ya gotta love that. Phil

[Saxlicker]

First of all,
Hi everyone, this is my first post.

From reading this thread and from previous information I have gained on Phils pieces, I would be interested in a fusion, from the precision crafted era.
Does such a beast exist? If not, can anybody figure out what is closest to my intended search?
If I understand right the fusion is up there as a rocknroll piece but more versatile and less extreme than a contemporary?
What exactly was the precision crafted era?
Thanks
Saxlicker

[les]

Improvising? The biggest flaw of all! But seriously, many players I know would considers Sonny's use of recent TV themes "trite" and not "real serious playing." I don't feel that way, but I know players who do. Unfortunately, I think those players are in the majority these days. Flawless players aren't reaching for much, generally, but there sure seem to be a lot of them. Could it be the proliferation of Jazz Education?

[wersax]

First of all,
Hi everyone, this is my first post.

From reading this thread and from previous information I have gained on Phil's pieces, I would be interested in a fusion, from the precision crafted era.
Does such a beast exist? If not, can anybody figure out what is closest to my intended search?
If I understand right the fusion is up there as a rocknroll piece but more versatile and less extreme than a contemporary?
What exactly was the precision crafted era?
Thanks
Saxlicker
www.pmwoodwind.com They have an older (Precision Craft) Fusion for sale for $300; I believe it is a 9* (.125) though. Might be too open for lots of people..........

[Saxlicker]

Thankyou ...I'm off to visit now!
Saxlicker

[Phil Barone]

www.pmwoodwind.com They have an older (Precision Craft) Fusion for sale for $300; I believe it is a 9* (.125) though. Might be too open for lots of people..........

The Fusion did not esisit back then. Phil

[Saxlicker]

Hi Phil from the UK,

Whats it likely to be?
Its features suggest it'll give me the sound I'm looking for.
Thanks
Saxlicker

[Phil Barone]

Hi Phil from the UK,

Whats it likely to be?
Its features suggest it'll give me the sound I'm looking for.
Thanks
Saxlicker

It's probably a Rock/Fusion or Contemporary. Let me know what they say on them and what they look like. Phil

[Saxlicker]

Certainly will Phil,
I guess they should reply to my mail on monday.

Thankyou

Saxlicker

[Agent27]

I just wanted to say that my New York model turns three today ("made with pride July 29, 2003") and I couldn't be happier with it.

[Phil Barone]

I just wanted to say that my New York model turns three today ("made with pride July 29, 2003") and I couldn't be happier with it.

Lucky guy, I don't date them anymore. I barely make them. Phil

[wersax]

It's probably a Rock/Fusion or Contemporary. Let me know what they say on them and what they look like. Phil
My bad. It's a Rock/Fusion.........daryl

[sessionsax]

I will have to tell you, I play a contemporary from the precision crafted days and it is the best piece I have ever played and I have a Guardala Brecker II which this piece is very similar to, but the precision crafted beats the Guardala hands down. Try one if you can when you try the rock/fusion.

[wersax]

I will have to tell you, I play a contemporary from the precision crafted days and it is the best piece I have ever played and I have a Guardala Brecker II which this piece is very similar to, but the precision crafted beats the Guardala hands down. Try one if you can when you try the rock/fusion.
If I could find one!!!!!!!:)

[Saxlicker]

Just to let you guys who have helped me know,
I haven't had a response from PM woodwind to my enquiries yet.
So I have just chased it again.

Saxlicker

P.S.
That contemporary sounds really appealing!

[Razzy]

Call them. I called them and left a message and i was called back the next morning. Junkdue and PM woodwind are much better by phone than email.

[wersax]

Razzy's right; call 'em. sometimes they're slow with the email........

[Razzy]

It's probably worth mentioning that if you call them up they'll take you more seriously. Every 12 year old kid can ask about mouthpieces and whatnot through email, but usually those with the intention of buying are actually calling the store during store hours. Just something to consider... I called pmwoodwind last monday to order a tenor mouthpiece, sent out the check that evening, and just received it today, a week and a day later.

[kindofblue]

Okay, I have to chime in here. The Barone Fusion has a more "smoothed out" baffle than the Rock/Fusion's step baffle. It also is a more flexible mouthpiece IMHO, your mileage will vary, different strokes, etc... It has a fatter body and is more forgiving with reeds. I had mine for sale on the board until I played it again last night at rehearsal, sorry, not for sale anymore.

Phil, what did you base the Fusion on (and for that matter some of the other models)? I know (correct me if I'm wrong) that the following are improved designs based on other pieces:


Jazz ~ Link NY (50's) Super Tonemaster
NY ~ Link Tonemaster
Hollywood ~ Dukoff CV Special
Rock/Fusion ~ Guardala MBII
Traditional/Contemporary ~ Older Berg Larsen
Contemporary ~ ???
Fusion ~ ???
Mainstream ~ ???

I've owned all of these at one time or another (except the Mainstream, I ordered a B-stock from WWBW and they sent me a Jazz 8*!) and while they ar e all different, I've never had one I was disappointed with.

Curt (curt_allenATyahooDOTcom)

[Saxlicker]

Hi Guys,

I got a mail back from PM woodwind today (See below but I will call them in future)
I don't think I'll be buying this particular piece.

They didn't tell me the model. I've checked my enquiry to them and I hadn't forgotten to ask.
It took them a while to find it
Its been stripped of a black finish? :scratch: Do you know what they mean Phil?
And is back to bare brass.
Its Very open at the tip...around 0.125" but apparently original.
Thats a little too wide for me.
I mght actually love it but........
By the time I pay UK import tax (if caught :wave: hi mr Tax man) It may be an expensive mistake.

Just incase theres one out there (I know this should go in the trade area)

...I want

Precision craft (definately)
rock/fusion (or what have you?)
0.110 min / 0.115" max tip opening
in good original condition

Thanks
Saxlicker

[Phil Barone]

Got one on alto and sop, both rubber. Just got a rubber one for the wife for her tenor ( got a feeling she might be losing that tho...)Got one of his 7* standard tenor pieces for sale, blown twice . Going on eBay soon unless sold before. I think they are the dogs dangley bits!!!! (Thats a compliment over here, by the way!!) Got his necks on alto, tenor and bari, too.Cant fault them. I think his eBay prices are cheap, so get in quick!!! Regards G

I'm sorry about that, the Standard is a very inexpensive piece made for people that are novices. Definitely not my best work but cheap and better than a new Link, I think. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Good news! I have New York models and LTD Hollywoods for sale. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Will trade blueberry pancakes for a mouthpiece.

[Dr G]

Do you prefer wild blueberries or organic farm-grown? Either way, I make some killin' blueberry pancakes - pinon nuts optional but recommended. I think we can work something out. ;)

[Dr_sax]

I´m getting hungry. Stop this

[Phil Barone]

Where do you live? I'll take the nuts, you never have too many.


Do you prefer wild blueberries or organic farm-grown? Either way, I make some killin' blueberry pancakes - pinon nuts optional but recommended. I think we can work something out. ;)

[Martinman]

If you come to Indiana, I will have my mom make you the best blueberry pancakes in the world in exchange for one of your mouthpieces. I will even give you a glass of milk and play some music for you on the horn of your choice (sop, alto, tenor).

[Phil Barone]

And you guarantee these are the best?

[shmuelyosef]

I, too, make wonderful pancakes...buckwheat, multigrain, buttermilk, with blueberries, bananas, raisins....even freshly roasted chestnuts in this season of cheer (my kids are home visiting!!)...California is probably too far to travel for breakfast, however. I will even promise to accompany you on the sax of your choice (you can play my saxes while accompanied by me on my pride and joy Mason/Hamlin grand pian) for a mouthpiece...and yes, I personally certify that these are the best

[Doug Lange]

Blueberry pancakes- Start with wild Alaskan blueberries. All the other "best" ingredients are secondary. Top with whipped cream, (heavy whipping cream, of course).

Alaska blueberries have an intense flavor not found in your local supermarket or farmer's market. The short summer coupled with the constant light of the midnight sun, makes for an unrivaled blueberry. My wife grew up in Oregon (should be called the berry state instead of the beaver state) and never liked blueberries because they lacked flavor. When we moved to Alaska, she tried Alaska blueberries and became hooked.

An optional method and preferred in our family is to make plain pancakes or waffles (from scratch, including gluten free) and top with Alaskan blueberry sauce. More blueberries per square inch with sauce:-) Whipping cream is optional but we buy it in the half gallon, so it is always available.

Come visit anytime. The pancakes are hot and the aurora is fabulous to watch on a cold clear night. Cold is relative anyway. -20 F is warm after a week of -40 F. My kids go outside for recess at -19 F (-20 F is the cutoff) including my kindergartener!

[Doug Lange]

off topic, self corrected :-)

[Martinman]

And you guarantee these are the best?

I think these other guys have my mom's Bisquick + Blueberries pancakes beat.

Dang.

[Phil Barone]

You guys are too slow, I'm into steaks a veggies right now. I have a George Foreman which does a great job, almost as good as an outside grill. I'm trying to lose some weight so I'm cutting out starches. Phil

I think these other guys have my mom's Bisquick + Blueberries pancakes beat.

Dang.

[Martinman]

Phil, back to a somewhat saxophone related topic...

How do the tip openings on your hard rubber soprano mouthpieces compare to others? I am considering purchasing one (I am the guy who called you on the phone the other day if you forgot). I have a Runyon 8 that has a very comfortable opening, and I wondered if you have anything similar.

BTW Phil, I have an outside grill. Come stop by and have a steak.

[Phil Barone]

Man, an outside grill? I think I'll go buy some lamb chops. Here's everything in thousandths. Let me know if you need anything else. My soprano mouthpieces are really good and a at a great price too.

5 - .050
5* - .055
6 - .060
6* - .063
7 - .065
7* - .068
8 - .070
8* - .073
9 - .075

[Martinman]

Man, an outside grill? I think I'll go buy some lamb chops. Here's everything in thousandths. Let me know if you need anything else. My soprano mouthpieces are really good and a at a great price too.

5 - .050
5* - .055
6 - .060
6* - .063
7 - .065
7* - .068
8 - .070
8* - .073
9 - .075

Mmm... Lamb chops sound good.

After looking at my WWBW mouthpiece comparison chart, my Runyon clocks in at .067. Thus, I would probably get the 7*. I will probably order one from you off of ebay or something after the holidays. Thanks.

[Phil Barone]

Mmm... Lamb chops sound good.

After looking at my WWBW mouthpiece comparison chart, my Runyon clocks in at .067. Thus, I would probably get the 7*. I will probably order one from you off of ebay or something after the holidays. Thanks.

Ya know I have to come out and say it. Two thousandths of an inch is not noticeable but mouthpiece makers have been getting away with this a long time. Reeds eclipse this small virtually unmeasurable difference. Ya understand? It's ridiculous to make mouthpieces in such small increments. Also, I might measure it at .065 or even .060 because my method of measuring is different. ALSO, manufacturers don't have this kind if accuracy. I've measured Links that weren't nearly what they said. Jeez, nevermind. I'm sure some of the experts on here will chime in.

Tonight I had a steak with mushrooms and then later on I cooked a rib roast. Frank always loved rib roast so sometimes I cooked one on Friday. I bought another one for Christmas and I'll set a place for Frank, the greatest person I ever knew. Phil

[Martinman]

Ya know I have to come out and say it. Two thousandths of an inch is not noticeable but mouthpiece makers have been getting away with this a long time. Reeds eclipse this small virtually unmeasurable difference. Ya understand? It's ridiculous to make mouthpieces in such small increments. Also, I might measure it at .065 or even .060 because my method of measuring is different. ALSO, manufacturers don't have this kind if accuracy. I've measured Links that weren't nearly what they said. Jeez, nevermind. I'm sure some of the experts on here will chime in.

Tonight I had a steak with mushrooms and then later on I cooked a rib roast. Frank always loved rib roast so sometimes I cooked one on Friday. I bought another one for Christmas and I'll set a place for Frank, the greatest person I ever knew. Phil

Can you custom make me a mouthpiece out to .070314592653589? I want to get the pi in...;) Just kidding. My Runyon has a messy tip anyway. I don't know how open it truly is, but it feels bigger than my Otto Link 6* STM, which could also be totally off. Basically, I just need something in the general neighborhood of that size.

Dude, I am having either rib (or pork, can't remember) roast for Christmas too. Is that cool or what? We must have good taste in meat.

[BarrySachs]

Tonight I had a steak with mushrooms and then later on I cooked a rib roast.


Not a vegan anymore? What's the world coming to?

[Phil Barone]

I can do anything you want. Phil

Can you custom make me a mouthpiece out to .070314592653589? I want to get the pi in...;) Just kidding. My Runyon has a messy tip anyway. I don't know how open it truly is, but it feels bigger than my Otto Link 6* STM, which could also be totally off. Basically, I just need something in the general neighborhood of that size.

Dude, I am having either rib (or pork, can't remember) roast for Christmas too. Is that cool or what? We must have good taste in meat.

[jazzbluescat]

....... ALSO, manufacturers don't have this kind if accuracy. I've measured Links that weren't nearly what they said. Jeez, nevermind. I'm sure some of the experts on here will chime in.

Tonight I had a steak with mushrooms and then later on I cooked a rib roast. Frank always loved rib roast so sometimes I cooked one on Friday. I bought another one for Christmas and I'll set a place for Frank, the greatest person I ever knew. Phil

re: lamb Man, everytime I hear lamb chops/roast I think "Silence Of The Lambs." I ain't eating another lamb.

Anyhow, I ain't an expurt or anything but I'd like to chime in. :)

re: tip opening accuracy. I've got a tenor Dukoff D6 and a tenor early Babbitt 8* and both tips measure .122+, off the scale. The babbitt's probably within the + manufacturer's margin of error, but the Dukoff is obscene.

[Phil Barone]

re: lamb Man, everytime I hear lamb chops/roast I think "Silence Of The Lambs." I ain't eating another lamb.

Anyhow, I ain't an expurt or anything but I'd like to chime in. :)

re: tip opening accuracy. I've got a tenor Dukoff D6 and a tenor early Babbitt 8* and both tips measure .122+, off the scale. The babbitt's probably within the + manufacturer's margin of error, but the Dukoff is obscene.

I'd like to know who measured them and why they come up with .122. I can't keep it in anymore but right now is the worst time in mouthpiece history. Essentially everything on the market is junk, literally and there's inexperienced refacers crawling out of every crack. But, there's enough inexperienced players out here that endorse them because they really don't know. I have to admit though that I though I was pretty good when I was doing it for five years but discovered that it took me five years just to learn how to hold a gauge. The secret to being truly great at what you do is humility. Become genuinely humble and you'll be good at anything you do. That means learning to say "I don't know" and that's especially true of mouthpiece design and mouthpiece work. Phil

[Doug Lange]

Many players know because the vintage mouthpiece market is brisk. Why aren't there more quality mouthpieces made today? Would they cost too much? What did a Link cost in 1956? What would that be in today's dollars?

[Sigmund451]

Think Dukoff is bad take a look at Bergs! Numbers are barely a point of reference for them....more like a bit of graphic art to dress up the piece :twisted:

[Phil Barone]

Many players know because the vintage mouthpiece market is brisk. Why aren't there more quality mouthpieces made today? Would they cost too much? What did a Link cost in 1956? What would that be in today's dollars?

First and foremost, as long as people continue to buy them they will make them; after all, why not? Also, there's some things that Link and some other mouthpiece makers did that sometimes caused them to go to waste, I won't name them because I do what they used to do and it would mean giving up a trade secret, something I'm not willing to do. Unfortunately it does mean that I have to discard some mouthpieces. I do two things that nobody else does. Anyway, Links for example, even old ones were frequently too dark, AKA stuffy but when reeds were always good and made from French caneit compensated for the overly dark mouthpiece. So, they compensate to prevent having to throw the piece out and this one thing they do prevents that from happening. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Blueberry pancakes- Start with wild Alaskan blueberries. All the other "best" ingredients are secondary. Top with whipped cream, (heavy whipping cream, of course).

Alaska blueberries have an intense flavor not found in your local supermarket or farmer's market. The short summer coupled with the constant light of the midnight sun, makes for an unrivaled blueberry. My wife grew up in Oregon (should be called the berry state instead of the beaver state) and never liked blueberries because they lacked flavor. When we moved to Alaska, she tried Alaska blueberries and became hooked.

An optional method and preferred in our family is to make plain pancakes or waffles (from scratch, including gluten free) and top with Alaskan blueberry sauce. More blueberries per square inch with sauce:-) Whipping cream is optional but we buy it in the half gallon, so it is always available.

Come visit anytime. The pancakes are hot and the aurora is fabulous to watch on a cold clear night. Cold is relative anyway. -20 F is warm after a week of -40 F. My kids go outside for recess at -19 F (-20 F is the cutoff) including my kindergartener!

So how can I get some of these blueberries?

[king koeller]

Today, people are too obsessed with equipment,
rather than hitting the wood shed.
In the old days,(1960's,1970's) people practiced for hours on end in order too grow as player's and learn the horn.
The goal was to become one with the horn.
You practiced long tones, for chop strength, worked out alternate fingerings, learned altissimo, listened to Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons records.
You learned tunes, went to Jam sessions, played the hell out of the fricken horn...
You weren't just playing music on the sax, you were, in essence, the music!
It didn't matter what mouthpiece you had,
It was about using what you had and making it work for you,
instead of debating endless hours on computer screens.
Everybody has their own sound, irregardless of the whatever their mouthpiece set-up is.
Just play.

[J.Max]

Today, people are too obsessed with equipment,
rather than hitting the wood shed.
In the old days,(1960's,1970's) people practiced for hours on end in order too grow as player's and learn the horn.
The goal was to become one with the horn.
You practiced long tones, for chop strength, worked out alternate fingerings, learned altissimo, listened to Sonny Stitt and Gene Ammons records.
You learned tunes, went to Jam sessions, played the hell out of the fricken horn...
You weren't just playing music on the sax, you were, in essence, the music!
It didn't matter what mouthpiece you had,
It was about using what you had and making it work for you,
instead of debating endless hours on computer screens.
Everybody has their own sound, irregardless of the whatever their mouthpiece set-up is.
Just play.


Not true. Saxophone players have always been obsessed with equipment. Why did John Coltrane hang out at the the Otto Link factory, for example? And since you mentioned the 70s, we can talk about Brecker's different set ups, or Wayne Shorter's. Even Sonny Rollins has changed a couple of times, although at least one of those was due to his teeth from what I understand.

Yes, woodshedding is more important, and playing is the thing. But don't make the mistake of saying that saxophone players of the past didn't care about equipment. They did...they just didn't have a centralized forum to talk about it.

[Phil Barone]

Not true. Saxophone players have always been obsessed with equipment. Why did John Coltrane hang out at the the Otto Link factory, for example? And since you mentioned the 70s, we can talk about Brecker's different set ups, or Wayne Shorter's. Even Sonny Rollins has changed a couple of times, although at least one of those was due to his teeth from what I understand.

Yes, woodshedding is more important, and playing is the thing. But don't make the mistake of saying that saxophone players of the past didn't care about equipment. They did...they just didn't have a centralized forum to talk about it.

Yeah, it's true; players were always obcessed but at the same time it's become more of a fast food mentality. Another reason why everyone sounded different was because nobody really taught jazz like they do now. Back then you either sank or swam but not it
s like painting by numbers, learning licks in different keys and then putting it all together. It really is a shame. Phil

[Razzy]

A lot of people also make the mistake of assuming that refacers weren't around back then. They sure were, but not as in demand as the mouthpieces being made often were hand-faced before even being put on the shelves. These days it's all done with machines and that is only going to take you so far. Attention to detail is harder to come by in the modern economy of anything that is mass-manufactured, and it's getting more scarce by the day. Refacing did not grow from a modern need to correct all of the inherent faults of today's mouthpieces, but it's rapidly moving in that direction...

[jazzbluescat]

I don't know, it seems like in the "old" days players might of heard a sound in their head and got equipment to bring it out or enhance it. Nowadays, it seems like players buy equipment to piecemeal a sound together. One extreme to the other I know, but, something like that.

[Phil Barone]

A lot of people also make the mistake of assuming that refacers weren't around back then.

I have a good story about that. If anyone remembers Frank Zane, he used to show up at peoples houses unexpected and something would always dissapear and he was on the lamp (no, not lamb chops!) from the FBI. Oddly enough, he was a good player and played with some big names.

Jackie Mclean had him up at Hart to work on students mouthpieces and he would take the mouthpiece in his hand and slap to his pant leg. The kids thought they heard a difference but it was a sham. He actually didn't do anything. Phil

[Phil Barone]

I don't know, it seems like in the "old" days players might of heard a sound in their head and got equipment to bring it out or enhance it. Nowadays, it seems like players buy equipment to piecemeal a sound together. One extreme to the other I know, but, something like that.


I agree with all of this but we can't say this about all players and in this case sometimes the opposite, a lot of mouthpieces these days, usually ones with high baffles, influence the sound to the point that a player can't get his own sound whereas a Link or Meyer does let the sound come through. I took a lesson with Joe Lovano and he told me that the extreme opening on his piece enabled him to get his sound and in an interview with Guardala he said that the mouthpiece should do all the work. That's why everyone sounds the same on them; pretty much anyway. They blow VERY easy.

A Link on the other hand has more resistance and everyone sounds different on them, they allow you to get your own sound but oddly enough my customers don't want to work very hard. Luckily, I made the Jazz, NY, and Hollywood models.

I made the New York model by taking a Tone Master and working on it a very long time just a tiny bit here and there. Then I let a bunch of players try it and they all loved it. I put it away because I knew someday I'd make it from scratch. Years later, I met a guy that told me he could do it and we made a mold and shortly thereafter I started making pieces from scratch.

My buddy Frank was playing a New York period Link, the best period of Links, and he started playing one of my NY models and gave me his Link Super tonemaster to make blanks and that became my Jazz model. At the time I called it the Steve Grossman model. Soon we started making them. I'll get to my point in a minute.

Then, Bob Sheppard came to me with his Charlie Ventura model Dukoff and we made blanks of them. Now, for some reason and I can't explain why because I don't know, they all came out better, way better than the original blanks. They were much easier to play but they didn't sacrifice sound quality. They also played the upper register much better and were much louder than the original and a little brighter. Phil

[Martinman]

Ok Phil, let me get this straight

Yours Original

New York Tone Master (is that an old metal Link?)
Jazz Original New York Link
?????? Charlie Ventura model Dukoff

What is the Dukoff copy?

And will you please stop making me want to buy expensive tenor mouthpieces from you with the money I'll need for college;) Let me wait till I get out and get a job...

[Phil Barone]

Ok Phil, let me get this straight

Yours Original

New York Tone Master (is that an old metal Link?)
Jazz Original New York Link
?????? Charlie Ventura model Dukoff

What is the Dukoff copy?

And will you please stop making me want to buy expensive tenor mouthpieces from you with the money I'll need for college;) Let me wait till I get out and get a job...

That's all accurate. My Hollywood I used a Charlie Ventura model Dukoff as a model. They had really long facings and were very stuffy. I'm having an incredible sale on Limited Edition Hollywoods. They're normally $500.00 but I'm letting them go for $350.00 + shipping. I have to move back to NYC so I need the money. Phil

[AmSaxPlayer]

My Phil Barone Jazz turned 10 today (made December 23,1996), although I've only had it for about 6 months. Boy, do I wish I'd had it longer. It's really a nice mouthpiece, my only complaint is the small bore which compresses the neck cork. A small price to pay for a great mouthpiece. Out of curiosity, the bite plate is black (it goes across the entire beak like a Link STM), is this original or a replacement?
I think they're worth the price; it's cheaper to find one mouthpiece that works for you than buy 20 mediocre ones.

[Phil Barone]

My Phil Barone Jazz turned 10 today (made December 23,1996), although I've only had it for about 6 months. Boy, do I wish I'd had it longer. It's really a nice mouthpiece, my only complaint is the small bore which compresses the neck cork. A small price to pay for a great mouthpiece. Out of curiosity, the bite plate is black (it goes across the entire beak like a Link STM), is this original or a replacement?
I think they're worth the price; it's cheaper to find one mouthpiece that works for you than buy 20 mediocre ones.

It doesn't sound like a Jazz model, maybve a NY? Before I bought my CNC machine I had JJ Babbit put my biteplates it. Phil

[dstack79]

Phil,

Just out of curiosity, did any particular mpc inspire your Trad/Contemporary model?

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

Just out of curiosity, did any particular mpc inspire your Trad/Contemporary model?

That's a very long story. I started studying mouthpieces when I was about 18 and this great player, Richard Grando, was showing me some stuff. He and Don Menza bought these really weird blanks from Pontes. They went by a few names. One name was Lucky and another was Zimberoff. They came in three chambers, M, O, and MO, the M and O chambers looked like a Berg 0 or 1, the MO looked like someone stuck Startreks space ship in there. They came in one facing, about a 5* or .085 and none of them played. Richie and Menza opened them to huge tip openings. Over the years I managed to buy a M and a MO, maybe a O too. I eventually got a great one and that's my Traditional/Contemporary. Phil

[Martinman]

They came in three chambers, M, O, and MO, the M and O chambers looked like a Berg 0 or 1, the MO looked like someone stuck Startreks space ship in there.


So the sound went where no man had gone before?

[Phil Barone]

So the sound went where no man had gone before?

Actually it went nowhere. They were terrible when left alone. Phil

[Martinman]

Ah, so they were more like the village people from "A Private Little War?" Didn't do anything without outside influence?

Must stop watching Star Trek and practice....

[AmSaxPlayer]

It doesn't sound like a Jazz model, maybve a NY? Before I bought my CNC machine I had JJ Babbit put my biteplates it. Phil

It has the Link type bite plate, but I was never sure how to identify it (on the shank is what appears to be "J05" and on the other side the tip opening, 0.110). It has a great warm sound, with a slight bit of cut, which if nothing else, I can say ended my mouthpiece searching.

[Phil Barone]

It has the Link type bite plate, but I was never sure how to identify it (on the shank is what appears to be "J05" and on the other side the tip opening, 0.110). It has a great warm sound, with a slight bit of cut, which if nothing else, I can say ended my mouthpiece searching.

Sounds like a very early Jazz model. I make them better now but I don't have any. I'd love to see a picture of it. Phil

[Martinman]

How are those lamb chops Phil? Merry Christmas.

[shmuelyosef]

Just wanted to chime in...I bought myself a xmas present...had always wanted to try one of Phil's NY pieces, got a 7*. Not only is it beautiful, but it plays real nice. In fact, the only disappointment is how similar it is to my favorite old Florida which is my main piece. Have to A/B real careful to tell the difference. It certainly looks a lot cooler, though...that old piece is pretty ancient looking and the gold has all worn off to what looks like nickel. Sure cheaper than hunting down an old Florida that plays...wish I'd known that years ago!

[Phil Barone]

How are those lamb chops Phil? Merry Christmas.

Not doing lamb chops, I made pasta fagoli and rib roast for Frank. Frank always like rib roast. Merry Christmas everyone. Phil

[Martinman]

Not doing lamb chops, I made pasta fagoli and rib roast for Frank. Frank always like rib roast. Merry Christmas everyone. Phil

Sounds good. I ended up having leftovers from my big family Christmas on Saturday for lunch and dinner.

I got some $$ for Christmas, so I can buy that soprano piece now Phil. Be expecting a call in a day or two.

[Phil Barone]

Sounds good. I ended up having leftovers from my big family Christmas on Saturday for lunch and dinner.

I got some $$ for Christmas, so I can buy that soprano piece now Phil. Be expecting a call in a day or two.

Leftover are cool, I love leftovers. I'll wait by the phone. :)

[Martinman]

Leftover are cool, I love leftovers. I'll wait by the phone. :)

Yea, they are....left over. You just pop 'em in the microwave, and BAM!!! Instant meal.:D Heh, I might end up calling you now.

[AmSaxPlayer]

Sounds like a very early Jazz model. I make them better now but I don't have any. I'd love to see a picture of it. Phil

Here are a few pics (http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r210/amsaxplayer/) (it's hard to photograph, I just cleaned it up). I'd really love to try one of your new ones, this old one is a killer and if the new ones are even better, they would blow me away.

[Phil Barone]

Here are a few pics (http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r210/amsaxplayer/) (it's hard to photograph, I just cleaned it up). I'd really love to try one of your new ones, this old one is a killer and if the new ones are even better, they would blow me away.

That an oldy alright. I hate to say it but the new Jazz models smoke it. Phil

[jazzbluescat]

But, of course. :D

[garyjones]

Everyone sounds the same to me these days but I attribute part of that by the way jazz is taught. There's too much transcription and no encouraging young player to shoot for something totally unique without going astray. I studied with Sal Mosca, he suggested that all his students go into psychotherapy to find oneself but you can do other things too. Meditation, praying, studying philosophy. You have to learn how to think outside of the box and that’s not done with the horn. Phil

oh man yea, jazz education is a really wierd thing isn't it.
educaton=conformity
musical totalitarian followers=there are alot of very precise players out there with absolutely nothing at all to say musically.

[garyjones]

I bought myself a xmas present...had always wanted to try one of Phil's NY pieces, got a 7*. how similar it is to my favorite old Florida which is my main piece.

it has been my experience that florida links are brite with lots of projection
phils NY is big a dark like an older NY master link or an early tone master.

i always wondered which barone model was actually paterned after florida links.

Phil will you let us in on the secret.
any of them start out as a copy of a florida short "no USA" link ?

[Phil Barone]

it has been my experience that florida links are brite with lots of projection
phils NY is big a dark like an older NY master link or an early tone master.

i always wondered which barone model was actually paterned after florida links.

Phil will you let us in on the secret.
any of them start out as a copy of a florida short "no USA" link ?

I thought I answered this but maybe not. The very best period of Links were when he was working on 14th St in NYC and the Super Tonemasters said New York on them. When my dear friend Frank Vicari switched to my NY model (like a Tonemaster but easier to play and louder) he gave me his NY Supertonemaster and my Jazz model is a copy of that but I made the baffle a little higher and balanced it out by making the chamber bigger. I keep trying to tell you guys not to spin your wheels looking for a Link, I make something better based on a Link and they're cheaper too. Phil

[Sigmund451]

Im gonna agree with Phil here. Ive got a Florida link sitting in my house that belongs to a friend. Ive compared it to Phil's. His has more depth, character, and its easier to get a nice full tone. The links I have played pale in comparison to the complexity of some of his pieces. Thats just one opinion but I will stick by it. I wont say his pieces play easier...they take some getting used to (shorter facing lengths) but Id take one over a any link Ive played any day.

[hgiles]

FWIW, I tried a Phil Barone New York made in 2001 that appeared to have a slight epoxy baffle in it. It was a fantastic piece! I would have loved to own it.

[Phil Barone]

Im gonna agree with Phil here. Ive got a Florida link sitting in my house that belongs to a friend. Ive compared it to Phil's. His has more depth, character, and its easier to get a nice full tone. The links I have played pale in comparison to the complexity of some of his pieces. Thats just one opinion but I will stick by it. I wont say his pieces play easier...they take some getting used to (shorter facing lengths) but Id take one over a any link Ive played any day.

I couldn't have put it better myself but my facings aren't shorter, I make them either the same as Links (7/8 2/32) or I make them a little longer. It's all good though. Happy new year. What are YOU eating tonight? Phil

[Phil Barone]

what's everyone's opinion for these mouthpieces? are they worth the prices listed on the website? philbarone.com i've never played one, but i'm tempted to buy a contemporary tenor sax mp. any advice is welcomed. thanks
rock n roll
matt

Uck, a Contemporary. A lot like a Guardala but more focused and in any opening you want.

[Phil Barone]

Hi Guys,

Its been stripped of a black finish? :scratch: Do you know what they mean Phil?

Its Very open at the tip...around 0.125" but apparently original.
Thats a little too wide for me.

Precision craft (definately)
rock/fusion (or what have you?)
0.110 min / 0.115" max tip opening
in good original condition

Thanks
Saxlicker

First of all my mouthpieces weren't better back then, they got better, not worse but do what you want. The black plating is actually black chrome and lasts forever but I don't know why they would strip it. I also would be surprised if it was .125, I don't remember making anything that open. Phil

[Sigmund451]

Keep it up Phil,you will have to diet in order to pull up to the facing table!

[Phil Barone]

Keep it up Phil,you will have to diet in order to pull up to the facing table!

What?

[gelliot2]

…I keep trying to tell you guys not to spin your wheels looking for a Link, I make something better based on a Link and they're cheaper too. Phil

Phil,

I'm a bit confused by that statement above. I recently read this one below regarding your opinion of the V16 pieces, which seems a contradiction to my mind.

They were very popular here in NYC but is was short lived. I made the mistake of copying it but ended up just selling a few. I still think you'd be better off with a new Link. Phil

Can you clarify please?

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

I'm a bit confused by that statement above. I recently read this one below regarding your opinion of the V16 pieces, which seems a contradiction to my mind.
Can you clarify please?

What I said was to stop looking for that "special" Link because they only sxsist in your mind but if you're dead set on a Link because all the famous guys used them then you can still get a NEW Link. They're good pieces.

[gelliot2]

Thanks for that Phil.

Personally, I've yet to find a Link that plays well out of the box. Perhaps you're talking about a modern Link that's been hand finished?

[Phil Barone]

Thanks for that Phil.

Personally, I've yet to find a Link that plays well out of the box. Perhaps you're talking about a modern Link that's been hand finished?

Well, hit the practice room hard. It may also be that no Link may offer you what you want but I guarantee you that you could find one. They're not THAT different. Everyone should stop playing mouthpieces with their eyes. Brecker doesn't do it, none of the top flight guys do it that I know.

Come on guys, I know this game damn well. I can play any mouthpiece as long as it doesn't have any major mechanical flaws and I can play any new Link. It's a matter of not letting the mouthpiece dictate to you how it's going to play when you look at it, you have to approach it with a sense of disbelief. If you're as dedicated as you should be you can do it too.

The day my sister got married, I went to the ceremony but after that I went home and practiced eight hours while my whole family partied. It's easy to be a average player and blame a little pit or some other BS on your sound. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Thanks for that Phil.

Personally, I've yet to find a Link that plays well out of the box. Perhaps you're talking about a modern Link that's been hand finished?


By the way, all Links are hand-finished. What makes anyone here think that a mouthpiece that's hand-finished any better than a machine made piece, especially now with so many new guys screwing around with mouthpieces it's pitiful. With the exception of maybe one guy all the work I've seen is terrible. This isn't something you can learn in a week or a few months and you better play your *** off too and that ain't no BS. Phil

[Sigmund451]

I was only referring to the large meal Phil.

[Phil Barone]

I was only referring to the large meal Phil.

I know. All this posting is making me hungry. Phil

[gelliot2]

Phil,

Perhaps my terminology was ambiguous. By "hand finished" I really mean't refaced by hand (aftermarket) to make the facings more accurate.

My comments about the poor playability of Links are as a result of playing them. There is a visual aspect to this as well in that I can usually see uneveness in the facings (uneven side rails, tip rails that don't match the reed tip curve, etc) . Now, if I can see these errors on a visual scale, they must be very large in tolerance terms when you actually get down to measure them, so are probably the cause of the issues I find in play testing. I should point out that in the visual inspection of a piece, I'm not referring to how shiny or how 'sexy' the thing looks - that's of no consequence (to me) as I'm standing behind the thing playing.
As you rightly point out, Links are hand finished at some point. Just not very well to my mind. My comparrison is against stock mouthpieces like Guardalas and the V16s which always seem to play well out of the box and usually have very even facings. They may not exhibit the tonal qualities some people prefer but they are basically good players to my mind.

My point is, no matter what the make of the piece, a facing should be accurate to start with to give a player the best chance of making it work. We could all spend 20 years learning to play a poorly made piece but surely it would be much better to have a piece (every piece) in good order to begin with, rather than make life difficult from the off. Surely, that's the whole reason you are in the mouthpiece business - to make the best pieces you possibly can (and do in fact).

[Phil Barone]

I understand why you feel this way but it just simply isn't true and it's a CHOICE as to whether you let it get to you or not. First, machines aren't more inaccurate hand-finishing and in fact the opposite is true. I have a CNC machine that puts the facing on perfectly, PERFECTLY even and in terms of Links not being even that's not true either if we're talking with regard to the facing. We call this in manufacturing “repeatability”, That is the ability to make each part the same every time and hand making something is extremely inconsistent. One thing that I do find inconsistent is the tip openings on Links but they usually don’t vary much. Maybe a couple of thousandths but it would be stupid to worry about two or three thousandths because reeds are so inconsistent that they will offset the difference of a couple of thousandths. I laugh when someone tells me that they had their mouthpiece opened from .105 to .108 and any mouthpiece tinkerer that does it is misleading his customers whether he knows it or not.

The RAILS may be different thicknesses but that's not the same thing as the rails being uneven from left to right but it doesn't bother me, why should it? I’ve evened out the rails and they still play the same in blindfold tests. One thing that's important for you to know is that nothing is more uneven than your reeds and they, in a sense, mirror the facing. You mention Guardalas’, on the inside of his mouthpieces that have round chambers, the Brecker, Brecker II, Traditional, and maybe a couple of others, he reams the chamber round with a Dremel tool or a small drill, what could be more inconsistent that that?

I don't have any problem playing a Link because I play one of my own mouthpieces but I absolutely could play one, they're really not THAT bad especially for the money and I would definitely play one over any Vandoren but I've learned not to let the way a mouthpiece looks effect the way it plays but in all honesty I'd probably make everything symmetrical anyway just because I have that ability and I am compulsive but if I just played I wouldn’t let that bother me.

Now, I respect you position because after all I got my start cleaning up mouthpieces but for your own purposes, you really shouldn't make statements that very well be untrue; there's enough folklore in this line of work. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, on this planet is an absolute, even my experiences with mouthpieces but if you’re going to state claims then you should be unequivocal and based on tests that are scientific, not speculation.

To address the comment that there’s no reason for cosmetic flaws, there’s two reasons. The first is tradition, Babbit has been doing it so long that they’re not about to change and the second reason is money, I they were to make everything look cosmetically perfect it would cost a huge amount of money so they’d have to raise the prices way up and then they’d be competing in a different market than the do now. They sell tons of mouthpieces now, I wouldn’t change a thing.

Remember, we are scientists even if it is on a small scale, and scientists have proof, proof based on DOUBLE blindfold tests. I’ve done it and you wouldn’t believe what is passable. If someone doesn't have proof, I'm not interested in hearing it because it's irrelevent. I think I mentioned in here when I worked with Charles Mcpherson that I only pretended to make changes and he thought he saw a difference in the way a mouthpiece played every time, that’s a placebo and I’ve done it a hundred times since then in 1983.

I’ve played Links that looked bad and played better than one that didn’t look as good but there was a time when I practiced eight hours a day. I think this is in large part due to the reeds being worse than the mouthpieces and that the player is more important than the setup. Happy new year everyone. Phil Barone

[Nefertiti]

I think I mentioned in here when I worked with Charles Mcpherson that I only pretended to make changes and he thought he saw a difference in the way a mouthpiece played every time, that’s a placebo and I’ve done it a hundred times since then in 1983.

Phil,
I'm hoping you got your words mixed up here and your not saying that you pretended to work on hundreds of mouthpieces but didn't do anything. Because........:(

[Razzy]

All the off the shelf links I've played suck. I don't care what the reason is.

All the off the shelf Vandorens I've played do play and respond well, even though I don't care much for their sound. I don't care what the reason is.

With aftermarket hand-faced mouthpieces, it's hit or miss. A few of the ones I had sounded really good at the expense of good articulation and soft dynamics. I found a guy that does good work and his work plays well for me and makes the mouthpiece better than it was before. I don't care what the reason is.

I love science and all but the bottom line is, how does this thing play when it comes time for the gig? Does it present a great challenge in getting my sound? Does it articulate well with most of my reeds? Do I have to work too hard compared to other mouthpieces? Is it uncomfortable for me to play when compared to another mouthpiece? If so, I ditch it and get a different mouthpiece. After a few gigs and not being happy with equipment I get rid of it and get something else. These are factors in which double-blind tests are totally irrelevant.

I'm finding equipment that I really like now and that is consistently good, gig to gig. The only new, off the shelf mouthpieces that play CONSISTENTLY well for me are Yanagisawa and Vandoren. Everything else varies too much to bother with. If you know that you like a tip opening #7 and you just go out and buy a new Yanagisawa, you know it's going to respond well with decent reeds, even if you don't like the sound.

I also really don't care whether I'm "fooling myself". A brief overview of cognitive psychology will show you that all people fool themselves about just about everything. If we didn't, we'd be depressed miserable wrecks ALL of the time! I'm willing to go with my gut when it comes to equipment, test it on the bandstand, and be happy with it rather than getting caught up in speculation, over-analyzation, and negating everybody else's beliefs. You could call it "truthiness" ;)

[sinkdraiN]

All the off the shelf links I've played suck. I don't care what the reason is.



Wow, really??

Since i started playing a link I've had the opportunity to play several examples of STMs and NY STMs and they were all wonderful to play. My Ponzol M1 and V16s are also great playing mouthpieces...

I can understand not liking the link sound...is that what you mean by "suck?"

[Mike F]

I'm finding equipment that I really like now and that is consistently good, gig to gig. The only new, off the shelf mouthpieces that play CONSISTENTLY well for me are Yanagisawa and Vandoren. Everything else varies too much to bother with.

Razzy, I'm interested in which off the shelf mouthpieces you have tried, or perhaps it would be quicker to say which ones you haven't tried. Thanks.

[Selmer's_glu]

Last year I was hanging out at my friend's house & saw that he had a couple BRAND NEW STM Link 7*'s that he had ordered from the WW&BW, for some of his High School Students.

I tried them & I was shocked...they were pretty good! (These weren't the NY model, either)

I could have used one, on any gig & have no problems. Whether it would be my favorite mpc of all time & want to use it forever is a different story. But it played fine (esp. for the money)

I've played & tried so many Links in the past, I know cats here (in NYC) with HUGE collections, as long as they're not dogs, ANY player could go a long way with a decent one.

[gelliot2]

Phil,

I'm a mechanical engineer by profession, so I understand the points you've raised regarding the mechanics of it all (I was also a QC engineer at one point so know all about repeatability, etc). And I totally agree about reed variability being such a large factor.

I've only played LT Guardalas but have noticed the rounded chambers you mention. On the LT models they are perfectly even as you would expect from CNC machining. However, I would suspect that close tolerances are less of an issue within the chamber anyway (maybe even negligible).

I have no doubt the facings are perfect on your pieces but after your post above I'm a little curious as to why some of your pieces are copies of Links if Links are really that good in the first place. I always thought your intention was to improve upon the Link.

However, I can't get away from the fact that a Guardala and a V16 is so much better to play than a Link (the V16 especially is effortless by comparrison). It's not just a slight difference either - they really are like chalk and cheese to me.

...And while I'm on the subject of food - you really should cut down on all that eating you're doing man or you'll be packing on too many pounds ;)

[dirty]

Phil,
I'm hoping you got your words mixed up here and your not saying that you pretended to work on hundreds of mouthpieces but didn't do anything. Because........:(
I think the story was that McPherson brought Phil a mouthpiece to work on, which he did. When McPherson played it, he thought that it needed a little something extra, so Phil modified it again. After going back and forth a few times, Phil took it back, did nothing to it, and then brought it back. McPherson loved it. I hope that's what you meant, Phil.

[honkytone]

The only new, off the shelf mouthpieces that play CONSISTENTLY well for me are Yanagisawa and Vandoren.

Word up on that, at least regarding Yani pieces. Vandoren are really well-made too but always seem to lack character. I've had several Yani HR alto pieces lately, though, and they are just wonderful, out of the box. They really rival some pretty nice older Meyer pieces I A/B them with.

[bfoster64]

I had a STM for alto that had a visible defect in the chamber. It looked pretty bad, and it did not play well. I have a couple Lakeys and they have pretty uneven sidewalls and facings, but they are inexpensive pieces. I also have three Jody Jazz mpcs, and they not only look very well made but they play wonderfully. In my experience, if you can see a defect in the mouthpiece, you will probably notice it when you blow.

[hgiles]

I have never played a bone stock LINK that didn't strike me as stuff and in-efficient. OTOH, any Guardala Studio I have tried has been great! Vandoren V16s are nice too.

From what I gather a Barone Traditional/Contemporary or a Barone Contemporary might be nice to try especially if the Barone New York I recently played is any indication as to the overall quality of all of Phil's pieces.

Question for Phil though: Did you put in any epoxy baffles in any New Yorks? The one I played seemed to have a bit of an epoxy baffled in it and played really super nice, but not like any LINK that I've ever played. It seemed to have a really nice timbre in the upper range.

[Grumps]

I had a STM for alto that had a visible defect in the chamber. It looked pretty bad, and it did not play well.
The last half dozen or so modern STM Links I've seen (alto, tenor, bari, new, used) all had chinks and/or gashes just under the table at the slot of the windway; perhaps indicative of a poor match up for the brass halves at this somewhat important juncture. I would imagine such pieces would not have made it out of the factory a few decades ago, yet they churn them out with regularity today.

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

I'm a mechanical engineer by profession, so I understand the points you've raised regarding the mechanics of it all (I was also a QC engineer at one point so know all about repeatability, etc). And I totally agree about reed variability being such a large factor.

I've only played LT Guardalas but have noticed the rounded chambers you mention. On the LT models they are perfectly even as you would expect from CNC machining. However, I would suspect that close tolerances are less of an issue within the chamber anyway (maybe even negligible).

I have no doubt the facings are perfect on your pieces but after your post above I'm a little curious as to why some of your pieces are copies of Links if Links are really that good in the first place. I always thought your intention was to improve upon the Link.

However, I can't get away from the fact that a Guardala and a V16 is so much better to play than a Link (the V16 especially is effortless by comparrison). It's not just a slight difference either - they really are like chalk and cheese to me.

...And while I'm on the subject of food - you really should cut down on all that eating you're doing man or you'll be packing on too many pounds ;)

One of the things I think you're experiencing is that Links are a far departure from a Guardala, totally different pieces. As for the chambers being symetrical, maybe that's true on the new ones but not the old ones. He used a Dremel tool and ground them out and they were really rough but I don't think it would cause the pieces to play badly unless you were playing it with your eyes but it would cause them to be inconsistant but they could all still be good and if you took five home in a week or so you would probably sound the same just by compensating. I mean they were ROUGH.

As far as my mouthpieces are concerned, yes, they play better than a Link in that they are easier to play and they get the entire register more easliy and they're louder. However it was luck, something that happened in the process of making them. I'm not a mechanical engineer but I took engineering classes and I own a CNC machine. Also, it's very common to think that facings are more important but nothing can be further from the truth, I can make a mouthpiece for classical use to hard rock by manipulating the chamber but not true of the facing as long as you stay within the parameters of a playable facing. Facings effect the feel more than the sound.

Food, ah yes, I love food. I'm already pretty fat, but I'm moving back to the city where I can cycle around Central Park, I can't wait to get outta here, there's no good restaurants. Happy eating everyone. Phil

[Saxland]

Just wondeing where have been working/living. I always assumed that you were right in New York City. Are you in Alaska jammin' with the polar bears? Pretty cool.....8-)

[Phil Barone]

I have never played a bone stock LINK that didn't strike me as stuff and in-efficient. OTOH, any Guardala Studio I have tried has been great! Vandoren V16s are nice too.

From what I gather a Barone Traditional/Contemporary or a Barone Contemporary might be nice to try especially if the Barone New York I recently played is any indication as to the overall quality of all of Phil's pieces.

Question for Phil though: Did you put in any epoxy baffles in any New Yorks? The one I played seemed to have a bit of an epoxy baffled in it and played really super nice, but not like any LINK that I've ever played. It seemed to have a really nice timbre in the upper range.

No way, I wouldn't put any epoxy in one of my pieces. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Just wondeing where have been working/living. I always assumed that you were right in New York City. Are you in Alaska jammin' with the polar bears? Pretty cool.....8-)

Just an hour outside of the city. Phil

[Razzy]

Razzy, I'm interested in which off the shelf mouthpieces you have tried, or perhaps it would be quicker to say which ones you haven't tried. Thanks.

Too many to list. Links, Meyers, Bari, Guardala, Jody jazz, Runyon, Selmer, Vandoren, Yani... many examples of all of them. The only ones that have consistently good response are Vandoren and Yani. The others vary greatly from example to example. For my main mouthpieces though I've only had a few, maybe 2 tops for each horn that I used regularly for a long time.

Wow, really??

Since i started playing a link I've had the opportunity to play several examples of STMs and NY STMs and they were all wonderful to play. My Ponzol M1 and V16s are also great playing mouthpieces...

I can understand not liking the link sound...is that what you mean by "suck?"

Not at all. "Suck" is probably pretty harsh. I like the sound of links. What I mean is reeds do not feel good on them and it's impossible to find a good reed. Also in some cases, articulation being poor and the registers being inconsistent in resistance. So what I'm talking about is bad response and having to work a lot harder than on other mouthpieces to get my desired sound consistently.

I guess my luck just isn't as good as yours! I've played probably 4 or 5 STMS and 3 or 4 STM NY's and did not like one of them. I've played a few rubber ones and they were better in terms of response, but still had problems. Those are not good odds! My current tenor mouthpiece, an older link resochamber, plays wonderfully, is consistent throughout the register in response, articulation, and tone quality, and is very "alive". The tip is a bit closer than I'm comfortable with so I'm having it opened up.

[dirty]

Razzy, you might be experiencing the same thing that happens here in San Francisco: People buy all the good Links, Bergs and Dukoffs when the store first gets them in stock. When the rest of us come in a month or two later, there's nothing but the ones that play like garbage (especially the Dukoffs!). These never get sold, so the shop either doesn't order more to replace them, or unloads them for cheap and then never orders more Links, Bergs and Dukoffs.

[Tonehole]

On the issue of consistency or more important the inconsistency of pieces, this is the whole point of trying mouthpieces.

Guardala used to promote the idea that his laser trimmed pieces were exactly the same, so you played one you played them all. He even had testimonials from pro's who swore they could not differentiate between pieces. So if the piece doesn't meet your needs or you don't like the feel or playability move on cause they all play the same. This model is not for you is not a great marketing strategy!

I would suggest that play-testing a total of 10 STM's in two model types in varying or same tip size likely is not a valid evaluation of the whole genre.
As seems to be the general opinion on the current OttO Link thread consensus is the variation in Links is pretty close to infinite, they cannot even clarify the model categories on STM's!
Thus the ongoing quest for a LinK that meets the individual players needs. You look long enough and try enough variations you will find one that meets your needs. Could explain why so many players use them.
Why should OttO LinK clean up production when they have the ultimate marketing tool with decades backing them ... don't like one just buy another! 8-)

[speyman]

Too many to list. Links, Meyers, Bari, Guardala, Jody jazz, Runyon, Selmer, Vandoren, Yani... many examples of all of them. The only ones that have consistently good response are Vandoren and Yani. The others vary greatly from example to example. For my main mouthpieces though I've only had a few, maybe 2 tops for each horn that I used regularly for a long time.

Here is something you said on this forum in the past.
"The lesson I learned from this thread is "stay away". Never really bought into the custom mouthpiece thing anyway. Most of my favorite players have got on well enough (recorded several timeless records, performed around the world for appreciative and huge audiences, composed great music, ya know, great musician things) without custom mouthpieces, and some of them have had them refaced. That's enough for me, the rest is... practice!!"

Now, considering your past statement (above), I would say that you did "buy into the custom mouthpiece thing" or your wouldn't have tried the Links, Meyers, Bari, Guardala, Jody jazz, Runyon, Selmer, Vandoren, Yani's. Where do you really stand? I sure hope this doesn't make you bite your lip again.;)

[dirty]

I would suggest that play-testing a total of 10 STM's in two model types in varying or same tip size likely is not a valid evaluation of the whole genre.
I think a lot of people (like me) think that you shouldn't even have to play 10 of them to find the one that works.

[Tonehole]

I think a lot of people (like me) think that you shouldn't even have to play 10 of them to find the one that works.

I envy you, I understand you to be a committed metallite player.One of the most consistent pieces made of one of the most stable materials known to man. Not disparaging your choice if it meets all your needs go for it.

I am always searching for more from myself my horn and my mouthpiece every time I play or practice.
I achieve satisfaction when even the slightest nuance is gained.

Did you not just post that the good pieces had likely been creamed of so what Razzy ran into was a group of consistently bad Link pieces? Or are they just a batch of consistent or varying pieces that don't meet his needs .... could be the next players holy grail. The whole point of the LinK quest.
He will never know if there is a link out there if he stops trying.8-)

Upon consideration Razzy is on the LinK quest he has a Reso-Link that he likes but he is having it modified because it does not give him everything he wants from it! He is looking for something more!

[Razzy]

Here is something you said on this forum in the past.
"The lesson I learned from this thread is "stay away". Never really bought into the custom mouthpiece thing anyway. Most of my favorite players have got on well enough (recorded several timeless records, performed around the world for appreciative and huge audiences, composed great music, ya know, great musician things) without custom mouthpieces, and some of them have had them refaced. That's enough for me, the rest is... practice!!"

Now, considering your past statement (above), I would say that you did "buy into the custom mouthpiece thing" or your wouldn't have tried the Links, Meyers, Bari, Guardala, Jody jazz, Runyon, Selmer, Vandoren, Yani's. Where do you really stand? I sure hope this doesn't make you bite your lip again.;)


Easy. I actually remember that thread and what I was posting about. By custom mouthpiece, I was referring to those mouthpieces that are CUSTOM made, and which by extension seem to have very long waiting times and also get a lot of praise from amateurs and otherwise on this forum. Such as: Lamberson, Johannes Gerber originals, Francois Louis, etc. The mouthpieces I play now are a factory Yani 7 on soprano, an opened up Meyer 5 on alto, a factory meyer 6 on tenor (while I wait for Mojo to open up my resochamber), and a factory Yani 5 on bari. Also Vandoren factory clarinet & bass clarinet mouthpieces. Hope that clears it up for you Speyman :D

[Razzy]

That's true Tonehole. I like the blank, need a bigger tip opening. I'm not comfortable using such hard reeds as the tip/facing requires. It feels like a 4 if I had to put a number to it and I'm using Rico jazz 4hard!! It's "Joe Allard" facing with J.A. written on the table.

I played my teacher's resochamber which was opened up to around 110 and really liked it a LOT! But 110 is a bit too large for me as I know from past mouthpiece experience, so I went with ~100. Will report back in a few weeks when it's in my hands, of course :)

[Tonehole]

Cool Razzy, I just tried a Reso 4* I had been sitting on for awhile. I am using #4 BlueBox on my 7* Link so couldn't get much out of the Reso. Seemed very clean but a little on the classical side for my tastes so don't think paying to open it is worth it. Post how it works out.

I am surprised on your mouthpiece sizes, I thought you would be playing more open but I remember how committed you were to MeYers and close facings. I haven't changed tip sizes much since we last chatted.

Soprano =6 wood LeBayle, Alto= 7 NY MeYer, Tenor = 7* NY Link, Bari= 130 long table Berg & C* Soloist, Clarinet= #3 Gigliotti, Bass Clar= Bay.

You've stayed true to your beliefs.
Pm me on your Reso.

[Razzy]

Eh sort of, all of my mouthpieces are a little more open than at that time however. For example I used that Meyer 5 alto until maybe a year ago, got a 6 and now I got that 5 opened to .080" and it's working great. I could really use a larger bari mouthpiece but the Yani works ok for now. I played a rubber berg 110/0 that played VERY nicely for me, but I haven't had to play bari in a long time so it's not a huge issue right now.

It's not so much beliefs as what works for me. ;) Tip opening seems a little less relevant as time goes on.

Also the reso in the close tip does play interestingly, somewhat classical you might say but open it up and BLAM. Chris Farr's mouthpiece proved that to me.

[Tonehole]

I'll PM you on your Reso.. one of my past teachers has moved to NY and has hooked up with your refacer I think?

8-) If you believed more open would work better then it would!

[dirty]

I envy you, I understand you to be a committed metallite player.One of the most consistent pieces made of one of the most stable materials known to man. Not disparaging your choice if it meets all your needs go for it.

I am always searching for more from myself my horn and my mouthpiece every time I play or practice.
I achieve satisfaction when even the slightest nuance is gained.

I wish I could get the Metalite to work for me on tenor! I play and love one on bari. What I meant by my comment was that Babbit's quality control should be better than it is, and players should not be forced to try 10 of the same model to find a good one. I recently got a Link refaced and it plays great. When I asked the refacer (Eric Drake in Berkeley, CA) exactly what he had done to make it play so much better, his response was: "Mostly just stuff they should have done at the factory."

[gelliot2]

...What I meant by my comment was that Babbit's quality control should be better than it is, and players should not be forced to try 10 of the same model to find a good one. I recently got a Link refaced and it plays great. When I asked the refacer (Eric Drake in Berkeley, CA) exactly what he had done to make it play so much better, his response was: "Mostly just stuff they should have done at the factory."


Now that's what I'm trying to get at - what is it that should have been done at the factory...or more precisely, what actually makes a good player versus a bad one of the same model line? Phil doesn't think the facing is the problem and I fully respect his opinion on that (he makes the things for a living and has played more pieces than I've had hot dinners....sorry to bring up another food analogy Phil) but I can't really see what else can affect the basic playability of a piece. By playability I mean its ability to respond and play easily, not its tonal quality. As I understand it, tonal quality is influenced by baffle and chamber design, so surely playability is the result of the facing and how the reed vibrates against/along it? To me, most pieces play okay in the mid-range but the acid test for me is whether it plays easily (responds well and consistently) at the extremes of the horn (above E3 and below D1). I don't have the necessary tools to measure a piece accurately but it would be very interesting to take a really good and a bad player from the same model line and carefully measure them to try and establish a root cause.

My personal interest in Links is that I actually like the tonal qualities of them (STM in my case). If I could find one with the playability of a V16 I'd be made.

[speyman]

Easy. I actually remember that thread and what I was posting about. By custom mouthpiece, I was referring to those mouthpieces that are CUSTOM made, and which by extension seem to have very long waiting times and also get a lot of praise from amateurs and otherwise on this forum. Such as: Lamberson, Johannes Gerber originals, Francois Louis, etc. The mouthpieces I play now are a factory Yani 7 on soprano, an opened up Meyer 5 on alto, a factory meyer 6 on tenor (while I wait for Mojo to open up my resochamber), and a factory Yani 5 on bari. Also Vandoren factory clarinet & bass clarinet mouthpieces. Hope that clears it up for you Speyman :D
There is nothing FACTORY about a Meyer or a Reso-chamber. However the Yani does rate that catagory. Aren't they all just mouthpieces and should be considered on that basis. What's wrong with a Lamberson? A lot of people like them. I hope that clears that up for you Razzy.;)

[gelliot2]

After my last post, I decided to put the facing theory to the test by taking a new stock STM 7* I've had laying around for a while and refacing it by hand myself. If I ended up ruining a mouthpiece I didn't like anyway, then I was prepared to take the risk.

Now this piece was very dull and stuffy compared to my V16 T77 and LT Guardala Crescent and was hard to get to speak consistently at either extreme on my Ref36 tenor. I could see the rails were of a different thickness and the tip rail was lop-sided, so didn't match the curve of the reed tip too well.

First thing I did was to tape a piece of fine abrasive on some flat glass.

I addressed the tip rail first by stroking the end of the mouthpiece against the abrasive until the tip profile looked even and matched the reed tip curve.

Then I placed the table flat on the glass and gently stroked it back and forth very lightly a couple of times. On inspecting the table I could see (by the way the gold plate had rubbed off) that it was very concave in the centre and much higher at the butt end.

At this point I marked the sides of the mouthpiece with a pencil where the curve started, placed the table back on the flat abrasive and continued to stroke the piece back and forth, with an even gentle pressure, until the table was dead flat (all gold plate gone). This took longer than I expected.

For the curve I stroked the piece very gently in a backward direction only from my curve start marks and gently angled the piece forward as I went. On reaching the tip I eased off the downward pressure so I didn't take any material off the tip rail at this stage (I didn't want to make the tip too open). I continued to check the side rails for even thickness as I stoked the piece several more times and finally took it the whole way to the tip a couple of times to take a small shaving at the very tip.

By this stage it looked nice and even at the very least, so I had to try it. I put the same reed back on that I'd tried before my rather improvised (by sight only) handywork and gave it a blow.

The result was simply astounding!! The piece was transformed. It now sings throughout the range of the horn and speaks very nicely in the high and low end registers where it was so resistive before.

If I'm honest, it's not quite as easy as my V16 but not very far behind...on par with my LT Guardala piece in terms of easy of playing I'd say.

I'm pretty much convinced now the facing curve is the key to a good player...but I'm prepared to admit I may have just got lucky.

[Mike F]

Good for you gelliot2.

I've also done this a number of times with success, and I've improved some mouthpieces by just doing the side and tip rails.
I'm sure that a mouthpiece maker like Phil would do the job in a much more scientific way - it's easy if your not careful to change the curve of the lay, not to mention the length of the lay, if your not carefully measuring as you go. However, I'm not sure that most 'refacers' are doing any more than you or I, or anyone else with a flat piece of glass some fine abrasive paper and a bit of courage, can do!

Did you tinker with it any more after you had tested it? I know exactly what Phil means when he talks about the placebo effect. I once refaced a Meyer alto. I did the job then tested it - big improvement. Did a little more - bit worse. A little more - a bit better etc etc. In the end I was taking the reed off the mouthpiece, doing no more than touching it with the paper, putting it back on and noticing a 'big' difference. The I just took the reed off and put it back on without doing anything - same 'big' difference! When you get into it on that level you find that any mouthpiece reed combination plays differently everytime you reset the reed, no matter how careful you are to put it back in exactly the same place. If I reface a mouthpiece now, I do the job, test it, and if it's better leave it alone - at least for a few days!!
No doubt the mouthpiece refacers and makers will now chastise us for our folly! ;)

[Razzy]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with any custom-made mouthpieces, just that I'd never pay all that money and wait in line for one if I wasn't sure what the result might be. Sure I might buy one second hand some day, but don't plan on it as of now.

There is nothing FACTORY about a Meyer or a Reso-chamber. However the Yani does rate that catagory. Aren't they all just mouthpieces and should be considered on that basis. What's wrong with a Lamberson? A lot of people like them. I hope that clears that up for you Razzy.;)

Actually, no it doesn't. Just makes me wonder why you're digging up my old posts and trying to catch me go back on my old word if it doesn't really make a difference anyway. After all, they are just mouthpieces and should be considered on that basis.

[Phil Barone]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with any custom-made mouthpieces, just that I'd never pay all that money and wait in line for one if I wasn't sure what the result might be. Sure I might buy one second hand some day, but don't plan on it as of now.



Actually, no it doesn't. Just makes me wonder why you're digging up my old posts and trying to catch me go back on my old word if it doesn't really make a difference anyway. After all, they are just mouthpieces and should be considered on that basis.

Say Razz,

Spend twenty minutes on the phone with me and I will tell you what the result would be. I know what players want with just a few questions. try me. Phil Barone 212-686-9410

[speyman]

I didn't say there was anything wrong with any custom-made mouthpieces, just that I'd never pay all that money and wait in line for one if I wasn't sure what the result might be. Sure I might buy one second hand some day, but don't plan on it as of now.



Actually, no it doesn't. Just makes me wonder why you're digging up my old posts and trying to catch me go back on my old word if it doesn't really make a difference anyway. After all, they are just mouthpieces and should be considered on that basis.

Trying???;) Just Razzing you Razzy.:D

Cheers and Happy New Year to you. Good to see your still out there kicking.
The 'ole amature, Speyman

[gelliot2]

MikeF,

No, I quit while I was ahead and didn't do any more to it. Although still not as good as my trusty V16, I'll play the Link for a while now and see what my lasting impressions are.

I took the Optimum lig from the V16 and tried it (loosly) on the Link and really liked what that did but I'll need to cut up some rubber patches or something to use as packing, so as not to deform the lig from Link's the top ridge.

[Phil Barone]

MikeF,

No, I quit while I was ahead and didn't do any more to it. Although still not as good as my trusty V16, I'll play the Link for a while now and see what my lasting impressions are.

I took the Optimum lig from the V16 and tried it (loosly) on the Link and really liked what that did but I'll need to cut up some rubber patches or something to use as packing, so as not to deform the lig from Link's the top ridge.


When you decide on the V16, send me the Link for a free adjustment. It will SMOKE the V16. Phil

[Mike F]

Phil,
can I send you the mouthpieces that I've tinkered with for a free adjustment as well? :D :D (only kidding!)

[Phil Barone]

Phil,
can I send you the mouthpieces that I've tinkered with for a free adjustment as well? :D :D (only kidding!)

Yeah, yeah, as long as it doesn't take long. Uncle Phil

[Martinman]

When you decide on the V16, send me the Link for a free adjustment. It will SMOKE the V16. Phil

So then could you also adjust the V16 to smoke anything else on the planet?

If stock Link < stock V16 and

tweaked Link > stock V16 then

tweaked V16 > tweaked Link

?

[Phil Barone]

So then could you also adjust the V16 to smoke anything else on the planet?

?

No, I stick to very simple rules, VERY simple rules, and I don't know anyone that plays a V16 otherwise or I'd copy it. Actually I did copy it when they first came out but the fad didn't last long; it lasted about a minute in NYC. For you mouthpiece guys I still have a bunch of the blanks for sale. They're more free blowing than the original ones from Vandoren.

So, I don't know any heavy weights that use Vandorens and that speaks volumes to me. Don't get me wrong, it may be great for you but I'd bet dollars to donuts that you don't have access to anything exceptional. In fact, (sorry, but this may sound arrogant) I don't think there's a great mouthpiece available. The best you can do is a SR and they're gorgeous but they don't play as well as they look. I recommend them. I wish mine looked that good but it would make it cost prohibitive. Freddie Gregory makes a decent piece too, GORGEOUS but I've played a few of them and they could play better. I admire him tremendously but he doesn't play and that handicaps him.

Frequently we can't see the forest because the trees are in the way. The Coltranes of the world and people in that league used Links. They all used Links, I mean in the catagory of a Trane, Rollins, like that. I don't mean the one or two tiers below the greats.

Also, you have to consider what "best" means. Two mouthpieces can be equally as good but just different. That's what you really want even if it drives you crazy because you don't have to worry about losing your best mouthpiece as long as you keep them apart. Always look for a backup piece while you have your primary because even if you're not crazy about it you have it as reference point, something you can use to measure other mouthpieces by.

People ask me why I don't have a return policy, I do have an exchange policy though and the reason why I don't do refunds is for a number of reasons. First, when I get one back sometimes it's all funked up, the biteplate can have marks and the body of the piece can be slightly scratched from the ligature being put on and off. Another reason is that I make so few that in the time someone has one I may miss selling it while the first guy has it.

Also, I only want to deal with people that are serious. You wouldn't believe how many players spend thousands on their horn and keep buying mouthpiece after mouthpiece but won't shell out $400.00 for a mouthpiece that will last them a lifetime. I haven't raised my prices in over ten years and considering how many hours it takes to make one it doesn't matter that much to me if I sell it or not.

When you buy one of mine, you sign up for the whole program, not just a great mouthpiece. I'll stay with you for however long it takes for you to be happy, and you won't be happy, you'll be ecstatic, provided you do what I suggest. Then, after I get you crazy about the first piece, at some point when you're ready we get you a backup. If I think you may be a contributing factor I can show you some tricks I learned from Joe Allard and Victor Morosco. Vick showed me an exercise that changed my sound entirely in a week or two. I know them and I know them well and I can show you too. Does it cost money, yes, but not that much and a hell of a lot less than buying a million cruddy mouthpieces and sending them off to newbie mouthpiece experts.

With just a little bit of work, a few minutes or less, and I'll turn the Link into something better than an old Link provided you use the correct embouchure and air stream and provided that what I think is the same as what you consider to be "better". What I will do to a Link is make it much easier to blow and it will be louder and FATTER. Uncle Phil

[Martinman]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that you don't have access to anything exceptional.

I don't:( Collegebound teenager budget. Plus reeds are so expensive. And yea, I have played the V16, and I was not very thrilled.

Also, you have to consider what "best" means. Two mouthpieces can be equally as good but just different. That's what you really want even if it drives you crazy because you don't have to worry about losing your best mouthpiece as long as you keep them apart. Always look for a backup piece while you have your primary because even if you're not crazy about it you have it as reference point, something you can use to measure other mouthpieces by.

I know exactly what you mean. I love the sound I get with my Rousseau SJ6 tenor mouthpiece, it is everything that a dark tenor sound should be. But I also love my screaming Dukoff. I also liked the middle of the road Link I tried once.



Razzy, if you decide to ditch the Link...;)

[Razzy]

I actually wish I had it right now! I am playing with this (http://www.francisband.com)band again next saturday and am asking around if anybody can lend me something that will work for that type of gig... said I wouldn't take any tenor gigs while my mouthpiece is out of commission, but the bread is too good to pass up! And I get to be in AC at midnight when I turn 21. :twisted:

Edit: put your fears to rest everybody, I know you were all holding your breath for me. I got a hard rubber berg 110/1 to use on the gig. It's AWESOME.

[gelliot2]

When you decide on the V16, send me the Link for a free adjustment. It will SMOKE the V16. ......What I will do to a Link is make it much easier to blow and it will be louder and FATTER. Uncle Phil
Phil

Phil,

That's a very generous offer and I may very well take you up on it (and if I like what you do to the Link I'll certainly publish to that effect here on the forum). However, I'd like to play the Link for a while longer yet before I do so.

I've played the Link solely since I made my modifications to the facing and have settled on an Eddie Daniels ligature with the thinnest plate fitted. It makes the piece more focused in tone and easy to play (for me anyway). As I said before, still not as easy to blow as my V16 T77 (which is effortless) and nowhere near as loud as the V16 either. Many people have reported that the V16 lacks volume but mine is much louder than a Link (although not quite up there with the Guardala in terms of volume).

In order for you to make my Link louder/fatter (which is something I'd like) I assume you'd have to tweak the baffle or possibly the chamber. And to make it play easier you'd be tweaking the facing some more. I'm not asking you to give your secrets away but would I be correct in those assumptions?

Also, were your copies of the V16 exactly to Vandoren's pattern or did you make any further modifications to that design? The reason I ask is because I've often wondered what a V16 would sound like if the walls of the chamber were rounded out like those of a Link, instead of being straight sided. It would be an expensive experiment to try at home but one I might attempt if I could get a used V16 at a cheap enough price. But maybe you've already tried that with your blanks.

[Tonehole]

What tip opening is the V16 and the link?

[gelliot2]

The Link was a 7* (0.105") before I messed with it. The V16 T77 is an 8 (0.110").

[sinkdraiN]

Man! This is torture...I like my stock STM 8...but the idea of Phil tweaking it is rather enticing.

I guess if I like my stm i shouldnt mess with it:(
...hmmm I do have another stm but it's a "5..."

[Phil Barone]

I got a hard rubber berg 110/1 to use on the gig. It's AWESOME.

A Berg? I SPIT on it!

[Phil Barone]

Phil,

That's a very generous offer and I may very well take you up on it (and if I like what you do to the Link I'll certainly publish to that effect here on the forum). However, I'd like to play the Link for a while longer yet before I do so.

I've played the Link solely since I made my modifications to the facing and have settled on an Eddie Daniels ligature with the thinnest plate fitted. It makes the piece more focused in tone and easy to play (for me anyway). As I said before, still not as easy to blow as my V16 T77 (which is effortless) and nowhere near as loud as the V16 either. Many people have reported that the V16 lacks volume but mine is much louder than a Link (although not quite up there with the Guardala in terms of volume).

In order for you to make my Link louder/fatter (which is something I'd like) I assume you'd have to tweak the baffle or possibly the chamber. And to make it play easier you'd be tweaking the facing some more. I'm not asking you to give your secrets away but would I be correct in those assumptions?

Also, were your copies of the V16 exactly to Vandoren's pattern or did you make any further modifications to that design? The reason I ask is because I've often wondered what a V16 would sound like if the walls of the chamber were rounded out like those of a Link, instead of being straight sided. It would be an expensive experiment to try at home but one I might attempt if I could get a used V16 at a cheap enough price. But maybe you've already tried that with your blanks.

No, I haven't tried rounding the chamber on a V16, why would I when the Links already have that. The V16 copies were very much like the originals. Phil

[HonkBopSax]

Are you still making the Mainstream model?

[Phil Barone]

Are you still making the Mainstream model?

Yeah, I have a 7* in stock too but we should have a talk first to make sure it's what you really want. Uncle Phil

[Gange]

A Berg? I SPIT on it!

I thought you were using a Berg for baritone?

[Phil Barone]

I thought you were using a Berg for baritone?

Maybe we should talk about sumyhin else, how bout FOOD?

[Martinman]

Maybe we should talk about sumyhin else, how bout FOOD?

Changing the subject Phil? (Maybe he only spits on tenor bergs?)


I had this really good chicken stuff I made the other day. It was just chicken breast dipped in egg, covered in crushed up onion crunchy thingies and baked in the oven. I also made some killer gulosh on Monday.

[Phil Barone]

Changing the subject Phil? (Maybe he only spits on tenor bergs?)


I had this really good chicken stuff I made the other day. It was just chicken breast dipped in egg, covered in crushed up onion crunchy thingies and baked in the oven. I also made some killer gulosh on Monday.


You didn't fry it, that would have been much better but I don't eat chickens because of the way their treated. Try this:

This is usually done with an Italian vegtable, brocoli rabe. It's a cross between brocoli and collard greens and is bitter but you can do other green vegtables cooked the same way, asparagus, brocoli, whatever. Cook your vegtables but don't over cook them.

Get a pot and put some olive oil at the bottom, enough to coat your vegtables. Throw in some garlic, however much you want. Cook the garlic but don't burn it or you'll have to throw it out. Then throw in your vegtables and mix. You're done and they taste ten times better than just throwing some butter on them. Phil

I CAN'T HELP IT IF I'M STILL HUNGRY!

[Grumps]

I miss the recipes on alt.music.saxohone Phil. Perhaps you should add them to the SOTW Lounge section.

[Sigmund451]

Perhaps Phil could add a recipe section to his website. I can just imagine him on the food channel:

Cooking With Phil Barone:
Italian and Saxophone Related Cuisine

[sinkdraiN]

One thing that has really improved the taste of my cooking is my new Santuko knife. I tried several and settled on a Wustoff. I was using a Chef's knife and just found my food too bland...my new full tang Santuko knife has the "edge" I'm looking for. Has anyone modified a Santuko knife for even more edge?:D


...now back on topic...I'm more of a grill guy. Saturday was so warm I had to start up the gril. I cooked chicken with a dry rub then made a lime herb sauce for it. My new quest is to master sauces.

[HonkBopSax]

Ahh, I too love the grill. I had some friends over this weekend and cooked out due to the moderate weather, though I love grilling in the snow. I ended up making jerk chicken with grilled zucchini with a pesto sauce on top, and foil wrapped Old Bay potatoes. Perfect. Saturday was fish - Chilean Sea Bass that had soaked in coconut milk, ground pistachios and cinnamon before sitting on cedar planks over the coals for 25 minutes. Served that up with posole hominy, swiss chard ... now I'm hungry.

[Phil Barone]

One thing that has really improved the taste of my cooking is my new Santuko knife. I tried several and settled on a Wustoff. I was using a Chef's knife and just found my food too bland...my new full tang Santuko knife has the "edge" I'm looking for. Has anyone modified a Santuko knife for even more edge?:D


...now back on topic...I'm more of a grill guy. Saturday was so warm I had to start up the gril. I cooked chicken with a dry rub then made a lime herb sauce for it. My new quest is to master sauces.

Wow, that sounds really interesting. What facing is it? Does that material make a difference? Does it come in a .106 facing? Phil

[Phil Barone]

Changing the subject Phil? (Maybe he only spits on tenor bergs?)


I had this really good chicken stuff I made the other day. It was just chicken breast dipped in egg, covered in crushed up onion crunchy thingies and baked in the oven. I also made some killer gulosh on Monday.

In order of SPIT ON. Alto, baritone, tenor. I SPIT on it! I can get into some other brands too but I think I'll go eat instead. Phil

[JL]

Man, I'm starving now (in spite of the spitting comments, lol)! Gotta go make some breakfast:

Buttered macadamia nut pancakes, with a fried egg on top, and the whole thing slathered in maple syrup.

[Martinman]

In order of SPIT ON. Alto, baritone, tenor. I SPIT on it! I can get into some other brands too but I think I'll go eat instead. Phil


Use that spit to digest your food Phil...

Does that vegi recipe work for peas? I hate peas and would like to find a way to make them taste good.

Also, does the knife come in staneless steel, bronze, or brass? Have you tried adding a baffle to give it that extra edge? If you let Phil use it I bet he would open it up and add a baffle for you;)

[sinkdraiN]

Also, does the knife come in staneless steel, bronze, or brass? Have you tried adding a baffle to give it that extra edge? If you let Phil use it I bet he would open it up and add a baffle for you;)

My Wustoff was great right out of the box. I'm not sure what the blade is made of...but I'm telling you...this thing really "cuts" through in any setting!

[Phil Barone]

Use that spit to digest your food Phil...

Does that vegi recipe work for peas? I hate peas and would like to find a way to make them taste good.

Also, does the knife come in staneless steel, bronze, or brass? Have you tried adding a baffle to give it that extra edge? If you let Phil use it I bet he would open it up and add a baffle for you;)

I guess you could do peas but brocoli, spinich, greeny thingies are better. Phil

[Martinman]

I guess you could do peas but brocoli, spinich, greeny thingies are better. Phil

Peas are green...I might try brocoli, I don't like that much either.

[Martinman]

My Wustoff was great right out of the box. I'm not sure what the blade is made of...but I'm telling you...this thing really "cuts" through in any setting!

So it is what a Dukoff should be? The names are familiar. Coincidence?

[Phil Barone]

Peas are green...I might try brocoli, I don't like that much either.

Then try spinach TOOT TOOT.

[Tonehole]

Eat at the Cracker Barrel yesterday .... anyone know how they make that Mac & Cheese? They make it very consistently, does not matter what state you eat it in.

On another subject what is that oil like substance that they fry everything with at the Waffle House? I was totally mesmerized watching them cook at the grill, they have this real neat ladle they use to poor a very consistent amount of lubricant on everything they cook.

Oh yeah I did a road trip to Nashville for a gig.

[Phil Barone]

Eat at the Cracker Barrel yesterday .... anyone know how they make that Mac & Cheese? They make it very consistently, does not matter what state you eat it in.

On another subject what is that oil like substance that they fry everything with at the Waffle House? I was totally mesmerized watching them cook at the grill, they have this real neat ladle they use to poor a very consistent amount of lubricant on everything they cook.

Oh yeah I did a road trip to Nashville for a gig.

Oh man, that's probably lard. Get this, restaurants resell it when it's no longer usable. When I worked in a restaurant, we had a 55 gallon drum of it in the ally out back. It sat there for months through the summer and winter and it STANK. Pet food companies coat their dried pet food with it before they bake it. It adds favor and give dried pet food a crispy, crunchy thang. No wonder had my sister write a prescription for special food for the duration of my dogs life. My sister is a vet and NEVER, NEVER give your pet store food. Phil

[Tonehole]

Not sure on the dog food thing, I take it you have never seen the Eucanuba Super dog show!
Was at home this Xmas break and my hound is 12 years old a English Bull Terrier. Walked her in the park and some old guy with a mangy dog approached and asked how old my puupy was! He flipped when I told him she was 12+ ... no gray fur and she still bounces when she walks. Only feed her dry dog food, likely genetic but she is one healthy dog. English Bull won best overall breed at Westminster this year. She is a 40 pound bitch that took both ears off a 90 pound pit bull that attached her in the park one summer.

I am sure whatever they use as Lub at Waffle house is a synthetic food by product ...I am sure lard is the healthy opption compared to what they are using.

[Phil Barone]

Not sure on the dog food thing, I take it you have never seen the Eucanuba Super dog show!
Was at home this Xmas break and my hound is 12 year old a English Bull Terrier. Walked her in the park and some old guy with a mangy dog approached and asked how old my puupy was! He flipped when I told him she was 12+ ... no gray fur and she still bounces when she walks. Only feed her dry dog food, likely genetic but she is one healthy dog. English Bull won best overall breed at Westminster this year. She is a 40 pound bitch that took both ears off a 90 pound pit bull that attached her in the park one summer.

I am sure whatever they use as Lub at Waffle house is a synthetic food by product ...I am sure lard is the healthy opption compared to what they are using.

Eucanuba used to be a great food about 20 years ago when they were owned by vets but all those companies that started out with the right intentions were bought out by big food companies. We used presciption food that my sister got us but about two years ago I talked to the wife and we made a decision to start feeding Abby chicken and rice. We made it once or twice a week and it was just a little more than the expensive dog food. We bought the chicken at discount places.

About a rear or so ago she started limping and it turned out to be cancer, my wife had her leg amputed and he bounced right back and ran around the park like the nut she was. It wasn't long before she slipped a disc and couldn't walk at all so we had her put down. I'l never get another dog again after that. She was a majestic Doberman. Phil

[olhonker]

Phil, You gotta get another dog, three things in life you must have to live, #1 A SAx. ( Been trying for 52 yrs) #2-A Motorcycle. (riding 52 yrs) #3- A Dog ( For 68 yrs) I have two PIt-Bulls currently, Both non aggressive and can't do enough for the owner. Regarding your view on Commercial Dog Food, I think you are 100% right, it is all garbage !! I have and do give my dogs 75% people food, Beef LIver (usually $1.30 lb) or Chuck Steaks (sale at $1.99 lb) and a small amout for fill of pet dog food. The people food comes out cheaper than the pet food and just watch the dogs, they go crazy over people food and only eat the pet food when they abosolutely have to.
Sorry about M> Brecker, with Davern there, Heaven must be swinging !!.
Last, your Vintage HR mouthpiece is great !! BB- LI NY

[Phil Barone]

Phil, You gotta get another dog, three things in life you must have to live, #1 A SAx. ( Been trying for 52 yrs) #2-A Motorcycle. (riding 52 yrs) #3- A Dog ( For 68 yrs) I have two PIt-Bulls currently, Both non aggressive and can't do enough for the owner. Regarding your view on Commercial Dog Food, I think you are 100% right, it is all garbage !! I have and do give my dogs 75% people food, Beef LIver (usually $1.30 lb) or Chuck Steaks (sale at $1.99 lb) and a small amout for fill of pet dog food. The people food comes out cheaper than the pet food and just watch the dogs, they go crazy over people food and only eat the pet food when they abosolutely have to.
Sorry about M> Brecker, with Davern there, Heaven must be swinging !!.
Last, your Vintage HR mouthpiece is great !! BB- LI NY

Hi B, I'm not ready for another dog, it was too painful to watch Abby (after Abby Lincoln) get sick and get a leg amputated, and the become paralyzed. No, no dogs for a long time. I just sold my Ducati, it was all done up, I even changed to motor to a 996 with a 1036 big bore kit. It had 140 horsepower at the rear wheel. I almost got kilt on it.

I wish I gave Abby chicken and rice her whole life, she may have lived longer. Thanks for your fedback, it makes me feel like people are all right after all. I will think about what you said though. Phil

[Mark5047]

Within a 6 week period we had to put both of our Boxers down - one of them was our little girl from when she was 6 weeks old. The other was one we had rescued later in her life.
Friggin cancer... I hate it.
I'm with Phil on this one - not ready to do that again soon......
Saxes and motorcycles, yes - but not ready for another dog.

[Martinman]

your Vintage HR mouthpiece is great !!

I agree. My new soprano one is awesome. Very easy to play, excellent intonation.

[Phil Barone]

Within a 6 week period we had to put both of our Boxers down - one of them was our little girl from when she was 6 weeks old. The other was one we had rescued later in her life.
Friggin cancer... I hate it.
I'm with Phil on this one - not ready to do that again soon......
Saxes and motorcycles, yes - but not ready for another dog.


Considering the way the last several years has gone I think I'll stay away from motorcycles for a bit too. My reflexes aren't what they used to be. Phil

[Phil Barone]

Within a 6 week period we had to put both of our Boxers down - one of them was our little girl from when she was 6 weeks old. The other was one we had rescued later in her life.
Friggin cancer... I hate it.
I'm with Phil on this one - not ready to do that again soon......
Saxes and motorcycles, yes - but not ready for another dog.

Oh, I forgot, I'm very sorry about your dogs. There's something worse about losing a dog than a friend or colleague. They're so damn innocent and humans can be such a pain. I think if we'd stop putting crap into our air and water the cancer rate would go down. In the meantime it was 70 degrees here the other day and it's in the middle of winter. Global warming doesn't exist though according to our knucklehead in charge. Phil

[Martinman]

Global warming doesn't exist though according to our knucklehead in charge. Phil

Have you ever read State of Fear? It is an interesting look at global warming backed up by tons and tons of research. Chrichton cites everything. I personally don't agree with most of it, but it makes a lot of good points.

[Phil Barone]

I agree. My new soprano one is awesome. Very easy to play, excellent intonation.

Thank you, thanks very much. Phil

[Adam]

In the meantime it was 70 degrees here the other day and it's in the middle of winter. Global warming doesn't exist though according to our knucklehead in charge. Phil

Oh, don't worry, while it may be 70 there, it's 35 right now here, and we have been bottoming out around 20 for the past several days... People are buggin' out, they have no idea what cold is...

[olhonker]

I don't think it fair to compare Barone with Guardala, Barone is real !! I believe Guardala in last year is a straw man, I, in my opinion do not believe Guardala makes anything any longer !! Barone has a very fine HR Vintage Tenor Sax Mouthpiece at a reasonbable price too.

[JL]

In the meantime it was 70 degrees here the other day and it's in the middle of winter. Global warming doesn't exist though according to our knucklehead in charge. Phil

Yeah, and it's in the 30's (at night) here on the coast, which is almost unheard of, even in winter. And don't expect the knucklehead in charge to understand anything about science or separate fact from fiction!

[saintsday]

Have you ever read State of Fear? It is an interesting look at global warming backed up by tons and tons of research. Chrichton cites everything. I personally don't agree with most of it, but it makes a lot of good points.

Not to let facts get in the way of a good read, but Crichton is a writer, not a scientist.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/michael-crichtons-state-of-confusion-ii-the-climatologists-return/
http://www.wunderground.com/education/stateoffear.asp

[Saxland]

Its actually Dr Crichton. He graduated from Harvard medical school.

http://www.crichton-official.com/aboutmc/biography.html

[Phil Barone]

Yeah, and it's in the 30's (at night) here on the coast, which is almost unheard of, even in winter. And don't expect the knucklehead in charge to understand anything about science or separate fact from fiction!

uh oh, let's not get started :) After all, he's proven what an IDIOThe is already :) Phil

[SuperDave]

Not to let facts get in the way of a good read, but Crichton is a writer, not a scientist.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/michael-crichtons-state-of-confusion-ii-the-climatologists-return/
http://www.wunderground.com/education/stateoffear.asp

Nice link I enjoyed it! Made me think back to my childhood and reading impending doom...ice age is a little late.

We should ban volcanos...to many emissions...

[Phil Barone]

Nice link I enjoyed it! Made me think back to my childhood and reading impending doom...ice age is a little late.

We should ban volcanos...to many emissions...

They're predicting a asteroid in 2029 that will miss us but it will make another pass I think 50 years after that. A nuclear bomb is more likely to kill us. Phil

[dirty]

I think the message we can all take away from this thread is

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!! THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!!!!!!!

[saintsday]

Its actually Dr Crichton. He graduated from Harvard medical school.

http://www.crichton-official.com/aboutmc/biography.html

Actually I did know. Being an MD does not extend his credentials to all the sciences and makes some of his factual errors and misinterpretations even more suspect.

[Saxland]

I posted that assuming that he, with a PhD in medicine, understood and respected basic comparative methodology in the field he was writing about.

After reading his bloopers, it's amazing the publisher put the book out there. What sticks out the most in my mind is that Creighton confuses weather with the climate.

I wonder why the publi$her allowed that? Humm.....Could it be...naw.. thats to cynical.....

[saintsday]

After reading his bloopers, its amazing the publisher put the book out there. What sticks out the most in my mind is that Creighton confuses weather with the climate.

I wonder why the publi$her allowed that? Humm.....Could it be...naw.. thats to cynical.....

No it isn't.

[SuperDave]

Do you know what you call an M.D. who graduates absolute last in his class?




Doctor.

[Martinman]

Not to let facts get in the way of a good read, but Crichton is a writer, not a scientist.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/michael-crichtons-state-of-confusion-ii-the-climatologists-return/
http://www.wunderground.com/education/stateoffear.asp


Thanks, I guess State of Fear should go on the shelf next to The Da Vinci Code now.

SoF is a good read though, very interesting plot.

[JL]

uh oh, let's not get started :) After all, he's proven what an IDIOThe is already :) Phil

Yeah the proof is there for all to see, no need for us to get started, lol!.. and if I did, it would be inappropriate for this forum & I'd probably be thrown off, so anyway I'm gonna go have some breakfast!

[dirty]

Yeah guys, let's just not go there while we're in the "General Mouthpiece Discussion" section...