The Couesnon Stencil thread

[soybean]

If you know of any stencils that were made by the Couesnon company, please post them here.

I know of at least one. It's stenciled as an "Embassy" alto. It's the same as their top of the line Monopole sax… with the addition of a high F# key! But be careful. The Embassy name was not always built by Couesnon.

After doing a bit of research, i discovered more information about Embassy branded saxes. They were made by at least three different companies. My alto was made by Couesnon in France and is a professional grade saxophone. I've also seen an alto made by Pierret that seemed to be an intermediate or student horn. Spiderjames mentions his Buescher/Embassy tenor. The Embassy and Acadamy names were used by Besson/Boosey & Hawkes for certain markets in the 60's.

[soybean]

Two photos of a Couesnon/ Embassy. Notice the large Couesnon letter 'C' on the key-guard.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/PICT0015.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/PICT0020.jpg

[saintsday]

No doubt that is a Couesnon. I don't see anything other than the engraving that isn't the same, right down to the bevelled side keys.

[soybean]

No doubt that is a Couesnon. I don't see anything other than the engraving that isn't the same, right down to the bevelled side keys.You would know!:D

[Collie]

"F. Besson Brevete Paris"
Couesnon monopole conservatoire II tenor SN 10xxx, nickel plated

quite interesting:
"systeme prototype" is written on the flaglike band (don`t know how this is called in english :) )

[soybean]

Collie, that's an interesting sax. Is it yours?

The band you refer to is called a "banner". It's similar to a flag.

[Collie]

soybean,

yes, it's mine....but probabely I'm going to sell it during the next few weeks ;)

If you are interested in some more detailed pics, no problem!
And I have seen a tenor withe the same "engraving" (more like a stamping) but being a later one. That one without the solid right thumbhook.

The neck-brace is not original and was added later. The neck had been bent down a little, but not too much. I think at that time they soldered on that huge brace.

Thanks for the "banner" :D

[milosr]

My alto emile simon- beare & son- Made in france looks like Couesnon Stencil. You can see the pictures

[soybean]

I looked at your photos in the other post. It appears to be a sax from the 1920s. I don't know if it is a Couesnon.

Saintsday might know the answer.

[milosr]

who can tell me is this profesional sax or............

[saintsday]

From the era of this sax, there really weren't student horns in the sense we talk about today. I have a really old Couesnon sop that I think has similar bell keys. I'll look in the next day or two, but your horn does have a Couesnon look to it.

Is there an address on the bell engraving?

[milosr]

Nothing else exsept emile simon- beare & son- london eng,toronto- mare in france. I can not belive that is no information about my sax

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180311195133&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Just for comparison. No stencil. SN# 594321?! A six digit number on a 40-ies Couesnon bari?

[saintsday]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180311195133&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Just for comparison. No stencil. SN# 594321?! A six digit number on a 40-ies Couesnon bari?

I know the guy who has it listed and am going to email him. I've never heard of or seen a 6 digit serial on a Couesnon and he is a little confused about the rth. I'll let you know what he says.

[soybean]

The highest serial number on a Couesnon that I've seen is 15xxx.

[saintsday]

I own a very old soprano with a 42,xxx serial and had a very late tenor a few years ago that was somewhere just under 20K if I remember correctly. The tenor was not mechanically a Couesnon. My tech thought it looked like a Buffet. Couesnon serials are screwy.

[saintsday]

Here is a pic of the bari serial http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/MVC-034S.jpg

[soybean]

Interesting. Now it looks like a 5 digit number with a roman numeral II.

[AhCheung]

Question is... is that the only "serial No." printed on the horn?
Couesnon printed SN in various spots (on the body between keys, at the back of LH pinky keys, on the neck). That could also be an inventory number of sorts.
Anyway whoever got it got a bari at an alto's price. Looks like a good Monopole series.

[AhCheung]

Ah yes to answer the initial question!
Some "Paul Beuscher" branded horns (French music trader like Reynolds, Vito, Olds etc in the US) were made by Couesnon (others by Dolnet, others still by B&S... that I know... maybe other manufacturers still).

[soybean]

Paul Beuscher… is that the correct spelling? Very interesting. Were these made after World War II?

[flycut33]

From ebay...Listed as a couesnon stencil

[flycut33]

and more...

From the ad:

"A VINTAGE FRENCH MONOPOLE-PARIS SAXOPHONE NO.3781 THE VEGA CO.INC.EXCLUSIVE U.S.A.DISTRIBUTOR,BOSTON.
IN VERY GOOD CONDITION,NO DENT,NO REPAIR,.REAL MOTHER OF PEARL BUTTONS.
ORIGINAL BOX AND SOLOIST C SEIMER MOUTHPIECE PARIS,FRANCE ,2 HARNESS.
THE INSIDE BOX ARE IN VERY GOOD CONDITION AND VERY CLEAN.
THE EXTERIOR HAVE SOME SCRATCH.THE SAXOPHONE MEASURE 28 INCHES LONG WITHOUT THE MOUTHPIECE AND THE BELL DIAMETER ARE 5 1/4 INCHES.
ON THE SAXOPHONE NEAR THE MOUTHPIECE IS STAMPED:15 220."

[soybean]

(The Reynolds sax was determined to be a Buescher stencil, so i removed the photos and text.)

[soybean]

From ebay...Listed as a couesnon stencilFlycut, I've looked everywhere on eBay and can't see this sax. Is there a link? or perhaps it's an older item that has closed??

[saintsday]

What do you make of this one? LaPorte reckons it's a Couesnon corpus (body). The keywork is reminiscent of Buescher. It's a fancy alto with a threaded locking neck and fancy engraving.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/alto2.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/alto7.jpg

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=190273024238

LaPorte reckons it's a Couesnon corpus (body). The keywork is reminiscent of Buescher. It's a fancy alto with a threaded locking neck and fancy engraving.

I don't see anything Couesnon about it. Flycut's horn did look like a Couesnon.

[Chris J]

Well this is Flycut's logo:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/bbcd_3.jpg

And here are some mouthpieces:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/Couesnontenorlogo.jpg http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/Couesnonsopranologo.jpg http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/CouesnonBaritonelogo.jpg

My clarinets:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/Couesnonlogoaftercompressed.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/Couesnonlogobeforecompressed.jpg

And (sorry guys), my euphonium...

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z110/CJ010101/IMG_5066-1.jpg

[flycut33]

Soybean...Its from an old ad. Somewhere between Nov 07 & Jan 08. Those are all the pics and print from the ad. I...em...harvested them then.

[choplick]

I recently bought a silver plated Monopole II for $200.00 from a Japanese woman just like the one in the following link.

http://item.rakuten.co.jp/windbros/10000490/

It's missing the front F like the one in the pic with the same "Zen-On" stamp.

Sounds great up and down with a beautiful sweet tone.

Anyone know more about these?

[soybean]

Welcome to SOTW. Thanks for posting. I had never heard of a Couesnon stencil made for the Japanese market, but it makes total sense. This may not be a true stencil in that it still has the Couesnon brand as well as the Japanese Zen-On. Zen-on is a name which was also used for electric guitars and other instruments. It is indeed a Monopole II (#13xxx) as we can see from the thumbrest and octave key. However, the regular Monopole II had the front F key. Couesnon probably left that off on purpose to give their own brand a little more value. By the way, does your strap ring have two holes? What is the serial number?

I have always thought the Yamaha yas-21/23 keyguard must have been copied from the Couesnon design. Seeing that Couesnon saxes were actually imported to Japan in the 1960s gives a lot more creedence to this theory.

$200 seems like a great price, especially if the pads are in good shape. You could have a tech add a front 'F' key without too much expense. Some people use old clarinet keys for that purpose.

[saintsday]

【ヴィンテージ】
ケノン アルトサックス

Thanks for posting the link. That's an interesting combination in silver without the front F and a steal at 200, even if it needs an overhaul. After 1000 hours of practice with it you will know the sound of one hand clapping and can show us your face before you were born.:D

[choplick]

Thanks for the interesting info. This horn has a single hole strap ring and serial 13561. All of pads are still good and it appears to have been overhauled less than 15 years ago since I only had to replace a tiny bit of cork here and there to have it singing. The sound of this thing was probably one of the happiest surprises I've experienced. Cheers.

[soybean]

◊◊◊
◊◊
◊

Photo of the Zen-On Couesnon (say that fast five times).

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Zen-onsilverplatewnickelkeys-2.jpg

Evidentally, Zen-On was a sort of pioneer in the world of recorders (blockflutes). Here's a quote: "Zen-on was the first company to produce an accurate baroque copy recorder in plastic."

[Fungus Mungus]

That Reynolds alto posted above isn't a Couesnon...it's a Buescher Elkhart stencil (20A). It's a great horn...you can read about it in the Buescher section.

Zen-on is a distributor in Japan for several makes of instruments, most notably Yanagisawa (along with Prima Gakki). Unlike the Prima Yanis, the Zen-On models don't have Zen-On engraved on them...just the Yani logo. It's not surprising to see that they distributed horns of non-Japanese makes like Couesnon back then.

fm

[soybean]

Photo of the Zen-On Couesnon engraved logos.
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/Zen-OnCouesnon-2.jpg

[Fungus Mungus]

Perhaps I wasn't clear...Zen-on distributed YANIs didn't have Zen-on engraved on them. Obviously this Couesnon is engraved. I suspect other makes were engraved as well. Just clarifying what Zen-on is.

fm

[soybean]

You were perfectly clear… and your post got me thinking about the engraving on the Zenon-Couesnon. I thought a photo would be interesting. Can anyone think of another stencil with both company's names on the bell?

Since both names are there, it's not really a stencil.

[Fungus Mungus]

Ah, I see. Right here.

http://img313.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/users/2/4/1/5/nytqc581-img427x372-1222595963farhs654900.jpg

I've got a Prima T-50 that has both companies' names engraved on it.

fm

[styxywyx]

Hi Flycut 33,
I have a Vega Couesnon almost identical to that one you have in your pics. I purchased it about 12 mths ago.Will checkthe serial Number and post pics tonight - is it the same one?........

[LaPorte]

That Reynolds alto posted above isn't a Couesnon...it's a Buescher Elkhart stencil (20A).fm

Buescher 20A, really?
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/alto4-1.jpg?t=1231455871

[LaPorte]

(The Reynolds sax was determined to be a Buescher stencil, so i removed the photos and text.)

I question that determination which lacks any proven argument!

[soybean]

I am not a Buescher expert by any means. To be honest, I trusted the Buescher fans who claimed it is a Buescher. Do you still feel it is a Couesnon horn?

[LaPorte]

I am not a Buescher expert by any means! To be honest, I trusted the Buescher fans who claimed it is a Buescher. Do you still feel it is a Couesnon horn?

I'll soon present my 'Holton The Special' alto here in the Couesnon stencil thread. This is a 'real' stencil of the B-series of Couesnon (early 40-ies), no 'Monopole Conservatoires'. After that I'll come back to the 'Reynolds alto', which is a tough nut to crack. I've sympathy for the Buescher party and I've played a '20A' - really amazing. Analysing all available facts, the summary was quite surprising to me ...

Felix

[Fungus Mungus]

I've had that Reynolds in my hands. It is most certainly a Buescher Elkhart (20A) stencil. It is even marked 20A on the back of the horn. If you remove the custom keyguard, you'll see it is indeed the same as a 20A. The keywork is the same. The only real departure is the way the neck has a ring that screws on to keep it in place. This was obviously done specifically for Reynolds...I've never seen any other horn with that setup. They may exist, but they certainly aren't common. I wish I knew more about the circumstances that this horn was made. It is a killer horn too...very free-blowing and a great sound. If you want to hear it, check the Buescher subforum and look for the Elkhart 30A thread.

Saxpics has a pic of this horn listed as a Martin stencil, but it is most certainly not.

fm

[LaPorte]

I agree, the keywork looks like Buescher and the alto is certainly not made by Martin.

That is an 'Elkhart (20A)' made by Buescher as I know (and have played) it:

Keygards and bow protector
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/2.jpg
Joint rings
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/1.jpg
Body tube-to-bell-connection
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/4.jpg
Serial number
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/7.jpg

regards Felix

[LaPorte]

Some history on the french F. Besson company (#5):

http://schwabbusiness.googlepages.com/frenchbessonhistory

"The war situation with the large company Besson and the quality problems of the giant US instrument manufacture such as Conn and Frank Holton gave an opportunity to small trumpet makers, who started copying the Bessons closely because of their popularity, to grab a small part of the trumpet market.
These small companies, whose owners usually did a lot of the work themselves, had names like Vincent Bach, Eldon Benge, Domenick Calicchio, Rudy Muck and F.E.Olds."

Don Cherry played a Besson pocket trumpet.:)

[LaPorte]

'L. Pages, Alger'

http://sites.google.com/site/saxaero/Home/saxophone-l-pages

Could this alto be made by Couesnon or Malerne, Buffet.. as supposed on the french forum 'SaxoFan': "L'inscription "Alger" indique qu'il a été fait pour l'export. Par qui ? sans doute Malerne, Couesnon, peut-être Buffet ?"

[flycut33]

Here's another on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270331524760&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017

Diplomatique

[soybean]

Some photos of the Couesnon stencil "Diplomatique";

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/01-09-026-01.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/01-09-026-02.jpg
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/01-09-026-03.jpg

[John Webb]

I bought the sax on ebay, the item was exactly as specified. Plays great from a whisper to a roar in all registers. The engraving reads Diplomatique, keyguards have the big C of Cousenon, engraved Made in France and serial number 9146. This is my first French Made Alto and now joins my Martin Comm II and King Super 20 as a playing favourite.:)

[Chris J]

John

Just looked up what you paid for it

What a bargain!

Take a look at Steve Howard's review of mine

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Couesnon_Monopole_II_alto.htm#

[John Webb]

John

Just looked up what you paid for it

What a bargain!

Take a look at Steve Howard's review of mine

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Couesnon_Monopole_II_alto.htm#


Chris.

Well, a really great write up, I do not know why others do not purchase such great Horns. I just dropped the Sax into my Technician and he will improve the bent lip, which is the only fault.

[milosr]

hi. do you have eny information about my alto sax Emil Simon ? Thank you for your time.

[soybean]

hi. do you have eny information about my alto sax Emil Simon ? Thank you for your time.What makes you think it's made by couesnon? Any photos?

[LaPorte]

Made by Couesnon?
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/lyon1916b-13-bg.jpg
http://cgi.ebay.com/Triebert-Brevette-SGDG-Paris-Silver-Bari-Sax-No-Res-2_W0QQitemZ390091541404QQihZ026QQcategoryZ119030QQ cmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DL VI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D6

[LaPorte]

Wrenching from Google:

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:09:56 -0400
From: "Robert S. Howe"
Subject: Re: [CB] Criebert bass Saxophone
“Re: the Criebert-Triebert Saxophone, know ye that Triebert mainly made
double reed instruments, and not Sarrusophones. When Gautrot bought the
name in 1881, or when Couesnon bought Gautrot in 1883, this tradition
continued. No legitimate Triebert Saxophones are known. …”

“In 1883 Amedee Couesnon bought Triebert-Gautrot and became a real giant. Couesnon pumped out tons of instruments in the late 19th century and early 20th century and, by 1911 they had EIGHT factories and 1,000 employees! They dominated international sales in those "glory days" of the brass band craze, making lots of private label ("stencil") horns as well as their own brands.”
‘Tom Turner’ 1-27-2006

“Couesnon continued to use the Triébert name until the mid twentieth century, reserving it for their finest double reed instruments.”
Double Reed Vol. 25; No.2 ; 2002

“Couesnon is the sole owner of the Triébert trademark. An instrument that does not have this mark is not a true Triébert model.”
Double Reed Vol. 25; No.2 ; 2002

“OK, on checking on Couesnon, it is stated in an old 1913 catalog that they did use the old names of companies that they had bought out including Triebert. And, it appears they may have continued the practice into the 1930 … .

So, after all that wandering around, it would be my guess that this horn is one manufactured by Cousenon in the first third of the 20th century.”
Kenton Scott - 2/10/2006 ; Answer to the question:

“… My father gave me his "Triebert Brevete" C melody saxophone, serial no. 9878 and Paris engraved on it, silver satin finish, a kings crown stamped on it, pearl finger buttons, SDGD initials stamped on it, on the thumb rest are initials N and M. is in excellent shape and plays very nice. Would like to know history of the maker … “

[saintsday]

Thanks for your research. I'd like to see more pictures, please.

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Triebert-Brevette-SGDG-Paris-Silver-Bari-Sax-No-Res-2_W0QQitemZ390091541404QQihZ026QQcategoryZ119030QQ cmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DL VI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D6#ht_5531wt_1167

Meanwhile the photos could not be seen. Hope that works again.

[soybean]

The photos of the bari are visible on ebay now. I can't see if the toneholes are rolled. By the way, the spelling is: Brevete'.

Very interesting Felix. You are always finding something new for us to get excited about. Somewhere on the net there is a photo of a Triebert Brevete bass saxophone. I also have some photos of a stencil Besson Brevete silver-plated tenor sax. It is made by Couesnon, probably in the 1950s.