ZZ vs. Java?

[pc1234]

Does anyone know what the difference is supposed to be between Vandoren ZZ reeds and Javas? Vandoren's website is not very illuminating on this subject. Thanks in advance.

[nachoman]

In my experience Javas tend to be brighter blowing and a bit louder, ZZs favour playing with a big, old fashioned type of tone (If I'm feelnig a bit Johnny Hodges I stick a ZZ on my alto)....

[BYOB]

ZZ's are bright and light jazzy reeds for me, but the V16s have a fuller, more contemporary tone.

Both of them are good - it depends on what suits your needs.

[kerry]

I found it interesting that this thread (poll) shows vandoren java to be the highest voted on reed as a players favorite reed. Highest in all 3 polls in thread(links).


http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=93140

[raysaxpauley]

zz's are a little more reedy, and javas are fuller.

[BYOB]

zz's are a little more reedy, and javas are fuller.

Lol I've never found V16's to be reedy in the least.

Which, once again, shows that everyone has different playing styles and requirements.

[Spongebob Saxpants]

zz's are a little more reedy, and javas are fuller.

Lol I've never found V16's to be reedy in the least.

Which, once again, shows that everyone has different playing styles and requirements.

Well, V16's and ZZ's aren't the same thing. I have heard both marketed as "jazz reeds", though.

[Buck Laughlin]

V16s can definitely be used for jazz (as just about any other type of reed can), but they were originally "engineered for rock." The ZZs were their jazz offering ("you can't have "jazz" without a "zz"). The Javas were designed for "jazz and variety" music (JAzz + VAriety = JAVA). By "variety" they mean entertainment music. But who cares what they were designed for? Use them for what you want, as long as you like the sound and the performance.

Buck

[Lovano1239]

I have tried all of the Vandoren reeds extensively and I figured I'd give my opinion. (All of these were played on a Rousseau JDX 8 mpc)

JAVA - Definitely a "jazz reed" allowing a great feel and big sound. Clear and warm. Good overall reed!

V16 - I don't believe what Vandoren says about this reed being made for "Rock & Roll" sax in mind. It's really just a great quality reed good for jazz with a great response. One of the better reeds in their selection.

ZZ - Personally my favorite. Excellent quick response and exceptional feel. Suprisingly a very "malleable" reed to. Sound qualities are different depending on the mouthpiece. One of the top 3 reeds I have ever played on (and I have quite a list...)

Overall... ZZ's are the winner for me. After that the V16's and then the JAVA's (and then Traditional but that's a different story) So in my opinion, great brand. Couldn't really go wrong with any of them, but it's up toyou to find the one YOU like the best. Unfortunately I have found my beloved ZZ's play like c*%p on my Jody Jazz HR* 8 mpc so I switched to Alexanders but perhaps I will go find that last box I have in my closet. Who knows, maybe it just needed to break in?

Well, hope this helps!:D

[nachoman]

The deal with V16s is they seem to respond well when you really go crazy on them volume/air presssure wise (usual rock & roll technique..?),which javas and ZZs certainly don't.
For me- V16s on R&B gigs, ZZ for acoustic sets....

[disgruntleddave]

Never liked V16s that much, although I haven't played em in a while.

I've been between ZZs and Javas mostly, and I have come to like javas a bit more recently. ZZs were what I played when working a lot more on altissimo. They have more pop and power than Javas, although now I can get exactly what I want out of javas. I found that ZZs softened up and died much faster than javas.

[Spongebob Saxpants]

I have tried the V16's and the ZZ's (not the Javas, though) and I like the ZZ's a lot.

[tanbark813]

I prefer the Javas and have found them to be brighter and edgier. The ZZ's are a decent reed but they seem more neutral sounding. The ZZ's would be my second choice after Javas as I'm not too fond of the V16's and I don't think I've played a traditional Vandoren since I was 10 or 11. :D

[bstrom]

Not trying to be contrary but I hate both of them. My wife has been sticking them in the dirt for plant markers.

[| hp |]

Not trying to be contrary but I hate both of them. My wife has been sticking them in the dirt for plant markers.

:kermit::doubt:

[pc1234]

Thanks for the responses, everybody. The reason I asked is that, at least for the V16's, Vandoren offers a cogent explanation for what makes them physically different from Javas -- more wood. It just seems odd that they offer no description at all as to what makes the ZZs different from Javas. You'd think they'd know, since the reeds presumably have a different design. I know the simple answer may be "buy some and compare them yourself," but it seems a bit wasteful and maybe even a bit cynical on the marketers' part -- i.e., making consumers spend money to figure out the differences themselves.

[tanbark813]

They have comparison charts of the differences on Vandoren's site:

http://www.vandoren.fr/en/images/SAXREEDCURVES.JPG

http://www.vandoren.fr/en/images/SAXREEDSKELETONS.GIF

[pc1234]

That's what I was looking for -- thanks!

[bstrom]

:kermit::doubt:

It's actually true! - but the Vadorens are not the only rejects (my rejects -your results may vary) she uses.

[cjmdsax]

:laughing:

bstrom please report to "101 thing to do with faulty reeds".

[cfile]

I have a question. When I look at the Vandoren site, the only difference they give between the zz and the V16 is the hardness of the reed. They appear to have exactly the same cut. If there is no other difference, why wouldn't you just buy a different strength V16 as opposed to the ZZ. What am I missing here? By the way, I've played the V16 but never the ZZ and I'm looking for something other than trads to play on soprano sax. I hate to order three different cuts in a couple strengths just to find the right reed. Right now I'm playing 3 1/2 trads on a Selmer Soloist D piece and some are just a tad too hard but when I play the softer ones in the same box, they seem a little dead.

[tanbark813]

I have a question. When I look at the Vandoren site, the only difference they give between the zz and the V16 is the hardness of the reed. They appear to have exactly the same cut. If there is no other difference, why wouldn't you just buy a different strength V16 as opposed to the ZZ. What am I missing here?

Because the ZZ's aren't a full size softer. If you were playing a 3 V16, going to a 2.5 V16 would be softer than going to a 3 ZZ, while the 3 ZZ (in theory) should still be softer than the 3 V16.

[matsuo]

ZZ and Java are the same strength per number while V16's are about 1/4 strength harder.

[EgilF.]

ZZ and Java are the same strength per number while V16's are about 1/4 strength harder.

I find the java to be harder than the ZZ (alto and tenor)

On my tenor MBII mpc's it's almost like this:
ZZ 2,5 - 16 2,5 - java 2,5 - reg 2,5 - ZZ 3 - V16 3 - java 3 - reg 3

But on soprano 3 = 3 on all types vandoren reeds.

[MM]

I find the ZZ reeds for tenor to be spongy and loose their spring after a very short time. Maybe I had a couple bad boxes, I dunno. The ZZ's for alto are a good match for one of my mouthpieces (a Rovner) and can be made more responsive with a few swipes of sandpaper in a V pattern. For more traditional Meyer-style alto mouthpieces I prefer Javas, though the last couple of boxes have not been very good.

I agree that V16's for tenor are good for rock and loud playing. I don't care for them at all on alto. They seem to be very hard and resistant on alto (and soprano.)

So my summary is:
Tenor: V16 good for loud, rock. Java is ok. ZZ's have been awful.
Alto: ZZ good for metal Rovner mpc, Java for Meyer type HR mpc.
Soprano: Java very nice "jazz" reed. V16 is pretty hard like trad. Have not tried ZZ.
(Bari: Vandorens are too expensive so I play Rico Royal!)


I would be interested to hear more from others as to what horn (SATB?) their reed preferences apply.

[EgilF.]

ZZ 3 is my favorite reeds on Guardala MBII tenor mpc. The ZZ is the reeds that last longest.... Regular 2,5 is the winner on alto (Cheong 0,85) and soprano (Bari 64)

[dstack79]

Does anyone know what the difference is supposed to be between Vandoren ZZ reeds and Javas? Vandoren's website is not very illuminating on this subject. Thanks in advance.

According to their website, the ZZ's are a slightly lighter cut comparable to the V-16, w/ the same thick tip. The Java is a lighter cut throughout and has a thinner tip and vampt than the v-16's or ZZ's.
-Dan

[Frank D]

I find the Javas to be brighter with more "buzz", at least on a Link and a Studio (tenor).

[kerry]

I received some java's and didnt like them at all.

[Tom Goodrick]

Those charts from Vandoren are very helpful. But I'd like to see some cross-sections at different positions back from the tip. The cross-sections are where the V-16 and ZZ reeds differ.

I like the V-16 on tenor in 2.5 strength. But on sop I use the ZZ's in 2.0 strength. I have had bad luck with V-16's on sop even at 2.5 strength because of damage to the corners in handling. They seem to be too thin at the corners on the tip.

Both types of reeds last me close to a year in daily use.

I have not tried Java reeds. Back 30 years ago when working on tenor, I used Rico 2.5. The Vandoren reeds are a big improvement.

[stevem]

This link has a cross-sectional drawing of these reeds.

http://www.vandoren.com/en/images/SAXREEDCURVES.JPG

[clhuff]

I find Java the best, overall, among the three. On the Jumbo Java mpcs, I can't play a ZZ without endless chirping, and the V16's are OK, but from one to the next, Javas are the most consistent in my experience.

[Stealth Swimmer]

V16s can definitely be used for jazz (as just about any other type of reed can), but they were originally "engineered for rock." The ZZs were their jazz offering ("you can't have "jazz" without a "zz"). The Javas were designed for "jazz and variety" music (JAzz + VAriety = JAVA). By "variety" they mean entertainment music. But who cares what they were designed for? Use them for what you want, as long as you like the sound and the performance.

Buck

agreed


I have tried all of the Vandoren reeds extensively and I figured I'd give my opinion. (All of these were played on a Rousseau JDX 8 mpc)

JAVA - Definitely a "jazz reed" allowing a great feel and big sound. Clear and warm. Good overall reed!

V16 - I don't believe what Vandoren says about this reed being made for "Rock & Roll" sax in mind. It's really just a great quality reed good for jazz with a great response. One of the better reeds in their selection.

ZZ - Personally my favorite. Excellent quick response and exceptional feel. Suprisingly a very "malleable" reed to. Sound qualities are different depending on the mouthpiece. One of the top 3 reeds I have ever played on (and I have quite a list...)

Overall... ZZ's are the winner for me. After that the V16's and then the JAVA's (and then Traditional but that's a different story) So in my opinion, great brand. Couldn't really go wrong with any of them, but it's up toyou to find the one YOU like the best. Unfortunately I have found my beloved ZZ's play like c*%p on my Jody Jazz HR* 8 mpc so I switched to Alexanders but perhaps I will go find that last box I have in my closet. Who knows, maybe it just needed to break in?

Well, hope this helps!:D

Agreed there. ZZ's are my favorite as well, at least for jazz. For classical I use the blue box ones. I just go by whatever reed gives me the sound/feel I'm lookin for in a particular song, but I generally find that for jazz I generally tend to gravitate to the V16's or the ZZ's and of those two, I tend to go with the ZZ's.

I find them all to be bright, relative to the blue box ones anyways, but V16s have the deepest "core" to the sound and help cut through a bit more, Java's got a bit more flexibility, and ZZ's to me are like the best of both, somewhere in between.