Grabner CXZ - K14

[spike421]

Anyone out there playing a Grabner CXZ -K14? I'd like any comments about your experience with it; especially as regards JAZZ and BIG BAND doubling. I'm doubling Bari and Clarinet and I'd like a little relief from the "resistance shock".

All comments welcome.

[eddierich]

I don't have experience with the K14, but I do play on a K13. I really like playing it and I think it can work in whatever ensemble or situation I find myself in. Walter Grabner makes great mouthpieces and I don't think you can go wrong with them.

[daigle65]

How do they compare to a B45 in terms of opening?

[spike421]

Thanks for your replys. I'm not sure of the exact measurements, but the K-14 is Grabners most open mouthpiece, I believe.

[dirty]

I'm doubling Bari and Clarinet and I'd like a little relief from the "resistance shock".

Any good clarinet mouthpiece is going to be much more resistant than any good bari mouthpiece. The key is to learn not to be shocked by it.

I like bari/clarinet doubling more than probably any other combination. The two different embouchures are different enough that they stay separate from one another, and by the time I get to the clarinet after playing bari, I'm used to blowing so much air that it feels like nothing to blow the clarinet crazy powerfully.

The K14 is apparently a good mouthpiece, based on everything I've read. Everyone seems to love Walter Grabner's mouthpieces. I would check it out if you're looking for a good clarinet piece, because it's probably sweet, but it probably won't give you the break from "resistance shock" that you are looking for.

[martinm5862]

Anyone out there playing a Grabner CXZ -K14? I'd like any comments about your experience with it; especially as regards JAZZ and BIG BAND doubling. I'm doubling Bari and Clarinet and I'd like a little relief from the "resistance shock".

All comments welcome.

I double alto and clarinet. I try to overcome the resistance by using softer reeds but just hard enought so the high G pops right out. It's always a balancing act. The reeds I practise on are always too hard for doubling.
Bari and clarinet was easier.

[spike421]

Thanks Guys - My Clarinet set up has been very classical- Charles Bay MO-M with a 4 or 5 reed, Buffet R-13 (1950's vintage). This gives a beautiful tone and great intonation, but not so good for rapid adjustment when doubling.

I actually started on the clarinet and moved to sax much later. As things progressed I found myself playing mostly Tenor with no double, until this Bari big band thing came along. Now I'm looking for a set up for clarinet that will reduce resistance and allow for more volume with less effort. I found comments about the Grabner interesting. Time will take care of some of this, but I appreciate your comments.

Any suggestions or comments are most welcome.

spike 421

[MojoBari]

I found R-13's resistant and ended up with an old Leblanc Symphonie II. It has a slightly larger bore. Similar to the Pete Fountain clarinet. But you should explore mouthpieces before considering a clarinet swap.

A Vandoren 5JB would be a more open than your Bay MOM. It would not be a lot of money to try it out. Using a Legere reed (2.5-2.75 or so) might help as it would not dry out while you play bari.

[spike421]

I've heard about the VanDoren 5 JB, very open tip, I understand. It's worth a try. My primary R-13 is a mid 50's model, which I bought on time payments doing odd jobs while I was in JUNIOR HIGH. I have been told that these models had a different bore (bigger) than the later models. This is a very powerful horn. I also have a mid to late 60's version I bought as a back-up. It seems more resistant and brighter and not as sonorous as the earlier model. It's going to have to be a mouthpiece change. I don't think I could give up my '55.

[MojoBari]

No way!

[Roger Aldridge]

Spike421,

I've been playing a Grabner K14 for a couple of years and absolutely love it. My first Grabner mouthpiece was his LB bass clarinet piece. I was so impressed with what it did for me on bass clarinet that I HAD to try a Grabner mouthpiece on soprano clarinet. After talking with Walter, both of us felt the K14 would be the best one for me to first try. Man, it was a home run on the first pitch! The K14 gives me everything I had looked for in a clarinet mouthpiece.

For me, a Grabner K14 gives me a bigger and more resonant & projecting sound than I ever had with large tip jazz clarinet mouthpieces. The K14 has a 1.09 MM tip. Yet, it more than holds its own in a big band and other large ensembles. It's been my experience that the K14 punches a hole in the concept that one needs a big tip opening to have a big sound.

Another thing that especially impresses me about Walter's Kaspar-style pieces is their amount of tonal "ring". I have yet to find a jazz clarinet mouthpiece that has this kind of ring in its sound.

I"ve found the Grabner K14 to be a superb general-use clarinet mouthpiece for classical, jazz, and everything else.

PS, one thing to be aware of is one really should not evaluate clarinet mouthpieces without taking into account their particular clarinet. I have several clarinets. On my performance clarinet a Grabner K14 works beautifully. However, on my backup clarinet I discovered a Grabner K11e is a better match. Thus, I've found that one often needs to use some amount of trial & error in trying a selection of facings to find the particular one that is a good match for your particular clarinet's bore size and performance characteristics.

Roger

[dirty]

You've got a great setup, man! You should probably just practice going back and forth using what you've got. If you want it to be freer-blowing or brighter try a softer reed. The Grabner might do what you're looking for, but I don't think it will be as radical a change as you hope it will be. I've only gotten to play a Bay mouthpiece once, but I was very, very impressed by the tone and response. Very crisp and clear.

[spike421]

Whats great about these forums is that , before falling victim to mouthpiece or horn mania, you can get input from folks who had experience with the products you're considering. Concerning Roger's comment regarding tip opening vs volume: I found it true on Sax, that a more open tip does not necessarily translate into greater volume potential. The perfect example of this for me was the Morgan Excalliber 8 (102 tip) vs a Berg Bronze 110/2 (actual 111), same reed, Excalliber wins the volume contest hands down.

Roger, have you ever compared a Bay to your Grabner K-14?

[Roger Aldridge]

No, I haven't had a chance to try a Bay. His mouthpieces have a good reputation.

Spike, not meaning to open a can of worms....but projection and volumne are not necessarily the same thing. This has been talked about on other threads on the forum. A mouthpiece with a lot of projection may not sound as loud as others in the immediate area. But, if you walk to the back of the performance space the sound of the projecting mouthpiece will carry all the way; whereas, the sound of a less projecting one may drop somewhere along the way. Morgan mouthpieces have a lot of projection.

[spike421]

Roger,

This is an excellent point. It is easier to think in terms of volume in a section, because that's the immediate feedback you get while playing.
It's possible that the audience is hearing what should be heard. One of the issues I'm having is an amplified Bass and Piano right behind me, a sad fact of life for many acoustic players, I'm sure.

[Roger Aldridge]

A simple solution is to talk with your band buddies and have the amplified instruments play to your volume level. Balance is critically important in any ensemble.

[MojoBari]

The volume vs. projection thing does pop up often. I do not know how you can have one without the other. It is very subjective. Rather than hijack this thread, there is one started on it:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=73122&highlight=projection+volume

[dirty]

No, I haven't had a chance to try a Bay. His mouthpieces have a good reputation.

Spike, not meaning to open a can of worms....but projection and volumne are not necessarily the same thing. This has been talked about on other threads on the forum. A mouthpiece with a lot of projection may not sound as loud as others in the immediate area. But, if you walk to the back of the performance space the sound of the projecting mouthpiece will carry all the way; whereas, the sound of a less projecting one may drop somewhere along the way. Morgan mouthpieces have a lot of projection.
What Roger says about projection vs. volume is very true. I don't know exactly what traits make a clarinet mouthpiece project well, but I do know what a clarinetist can do with his embouchure, voicing and airstream in order to project well. The key is, no matter how loud you are playing, try to keep that clarinet "ring" in your sound that Roger talks about. I don't know enough about acoustics to tell you why, but I know enough about performing in loud situations on the clarinet to tell you that it works. Tongue arched high in the back of the mouth, strong, consistent air support, no biting, lots of side pressure, lots of confidence. Also, practice long tones at FFF+ volumes throughout the range. You'll eventually need to get them in tune at those volumes.

My clarinet teacher played me some orchestral recordings of Robert Marcellus and Daniel Bonade once (excerpts discs. I don't remember which excerpts). You can hear in the sound when they have to play over a huge orchestra with full brass and percussion that they are blowing HARD and playing LOUD, but the tone stays full, clear and focused, completely expressive and controlled. That's projection.


A simple solution is to talk with your band buddies and have the amplified instruments play to your volume level. Balance is critically important in any ensemble.

Roger,

This is an excellent point. It is easier to think in terms of volume in a section, because that's the immediate feedback you get while playing.
It's possible that the audience is hearing what should be heard. One of the issues I'm having is an amplified Bass and Piano right behind me, a sad fact of life for many acoustic players, I'm sure.

I hate how this happens. The drummer gets excited and starts playing louder. The bassist can't hear himself any more, so he turns up a little bit. The pianist does the same. This seems to happen a lot, even on stage. I always dread the moment in a performance when I see the bassist reach for the volume knob on his amp to give himself a little boost. The horns, with no knobs to turn up, are kind of screwed, as now they have to occupy a dynamic range from mf to however loud they can manage to play. It ain't right.

On the other hand, it's kind of a fact of life and we sometimes just have to live with it. There are a lot of cool drum tones that only come when you hit the drums HARD. Even a good drummer will sometimes play louder than you might want, but if he's good, you can work together on that.

[Roger Aldridge]

If this is happening in an ensemble with a Director, it's his/her job to achieve balance between sections and individuals. Talk to the Director about it. If there is no Director, then an acoustical player needs to stand up for himself and get the others to turn down the volume...or else use a mike and join in the battle of the turned up knobs (groan!).

[spike421]

Guy's, in my situation even the trombones are complaining, but to no avail. Rythm guys are hard to find down here and the leader likes the sound. We're screwed. Fortunately the drummer sits on the opposite side of the band from the Bass and Piano (Electronic Keyboard). Since this is primarily music for dancing, I guess he (our Leader) feels they like the strong rythm.

[spike421]

Not to pirate the projection/volume thread, but:

I think a great example of projection is the Ellington Sax section with Johnny Hodges on lead Alto. Of course, he had a very unique and liquid sound, but that whole sax section is like and extension/enhancement of his sound and he can be heard at the top and his presence is never lost, no matter what other section is playing at whatever volume. Yet he plays so relaxed, it sounds so effortless.

Only my personal opinion of course.

[Roger Aldridge]

Spike,

Here's something you can try.....

When you try some new clarinet mouthpieces take the one you like the best to a big band practice or performance. Then, have someone you trust go to the back of the performance space and listen to your playing with the band. See if that person can hear you. It's that simple. Again, projection is about one's sound carrying a distance...to what an audience in the back can hear.

If I was in your shoes I would talk (again) with the Leader about the band's balance problems. Perhaps include the 1st chair players from each section as a committee. A big band can have a strong rhythm for dancing without one section overpowering the others. I've played in big bands for a long time. Balance is very important. I'm wondering how experienced your band's Leader is.

Good luck!

[dirty]

Spike,

Here's something you can try.....

When you try some new clarinet mouthpieces take the one you like the best to a big band practice or performance. Then, have someone you trust go to the back of the performance space and listen to your playing with the band. See if that person can hear you. It's that simple. Again, projection is about one's sound carrying a distance...to what an audience in the back can hear.

If I was in your shoes I would talk (again) with the Leader about the band's balance problems. Perhaps include the 1st chair players from each section as a committee. A big band can have a strong rhythm for dancing without one section overpowering the others. I've played in big bands for a long time. Balance is very important. I'm wondering how experienced your band's Leader is.

Good luck!
As always, good advice from Roger. To add to it, regarding balance in an ensemble: IF THE RHYTHM SECTION IS TOO LOUD, THE BAND SOUNDS LIKE CRAP. That's a fact. The horns have to overblow and lose at least some degree of control. The rhythm section doesn't have to listen to each other, they impose themselves on each other. That definitely saves them some trouble, but they're for sure not listening to the horns if they're up that loud. Rhythm players can be controlled, to a certain degree. Just don't let the bassist and pianist turn up any louder. Then if the drummer plays too loud, everyone can turn to him and say "HEY! SHUT UP YOU @$$HOLE!"

Some drummers won't respond to anything else...:twisted:

[spike421]

Well, we had a rehearsal last night in prep for and upcoming job with a new Yamaha Keyboard - What a difference for the keyboard guy, much better control of volume and blending with the group. Our director, after some harassment, got on the Bassist. We're on our way. The Drummer is next - --

[Roger Aldridge]

Circling back to the original topic.

I recently got a K13 from Walter Grabner and found it to be excellent. Its tonal qualities and level of response are breathtaking beautiful.

As I might have mentioned previously, I have 3 clarinets with different bore sizes and in matching Grabner mouthpieces to them I ended up using a different mouthpiece on each clarinet.

I get the best results with a K14 on my performance Couesnon Monopole. Whereas, a K11e works better on my backup CM. Finally, I'm leaning toward the K13 on my Silver Throat.

Truly, each of the Grabner Kaspar-style pieces I have is superb. I don't see one as being any better than the others. Rather, it's a matter of finding the best match for the performance characteristics of my particular clarinet.

Roger