Mouthpiece/Reeds are leaking! [Archive]

kryz

08-09-2008, 09:16 PM

ShedShark

08-09-2008, 09:21 PM

I'm not as experienced as others on the board but I've run into a similar situation and what I did was start to rotate reads more often and scoot the ligature up (away from the shank end). This cleared it up for me.

kryz

08-09-2008, 09:27 PM

Hi,
thanks for your answer! I forgot to mention, that I already moved the lig around and it didn't work!

Chris

Zoot Horn

08-09-2008, 09:29 PM

I've asked a lot of people about this. Everyone has a different opinion. This is just my opinion.

I use a piece of very fine sand paper on a flat surface and sand just the butt of the reed until the table is flat again. I check every reed for flatness. I believe that it allows me to play almost every reed. I think that it especially matters with baritone reeds. I think it is also important for any reed thay you clip.

But if a piece of wood starts to warp, it just keeps warping. You can remove the cupping from the table of the reed, but when it dries and gets wet again, the cupping will probably return.

A reed that you can't play any longer isn't worth anything. You can experiment with it until you figure it out. See what works. Keep it simple though, or it'll take a lot of time.

Other people say throw them away until you find one that works.

This is a good thread. I hope other people write down what they do.

jmathesonjr

08-09-2008, 11:01 PM

Peter Ponzol has a guide for working and breaking in reeds that he used to include with a box of his reeds that helps with this.

The problem you are experiencing is normal and the way reeds react. Remeber that the cane has been drying since harvesting and you then take them out of a box and rehydrate them. By using them you are asking them to do things they are not ready to do. Imagine sleeping solidly for three to seven years and then in about two minutes someone wakes you up and forces you to run at break neck speed for two to five hours. Would you be able to do that?

Ponzol's theory is that the reeds need to be rehydrated evenly and completely. his recommendations are:

1. Soak the reeds in water for between 5 and 20 minutes. (I use distilled water and let the reeds soak for a half hour in a Harrison Reed Well.)

2. Dry the reeds. (I place the reeds in my mouth and get rid of the excess water that way.)

3. Play the reeds for no more than 2 minutes keeping to the middle register. (I time this to the second. I do not go lower than low F and no higher than high C.)

4. Place the reeds in a reed guard. (I lay them on a sheet of glass.)

Repeat the above for the next two days. (I wait a full 24 hours before I do this again.)

On the third day, play the reeds for 5 minutes and expand the range. (I play the reeds for a maximum of 10 minutes and will play from low A to the A above high F at this time.)

At this point, I start to separate the reeds into three categories: 1. Those that are acceptable, 2. Those that need work, and 3. Those that need the wall test.

I also rotate my reeds. I have between 24 and 30 reeds in rotation or about 8 days worth. Every time I take a break from practicing, leave a rehearsal or a gig, I put the reed I am using in a reed case. If I return to practicing, go to another rehearsal or gig, I move on to the next reed in rotation.

Since I have been doing this, I have been finding that 4 out of every 5 reeds are playable and workable. I have also found that the reeds last between 9 and 15 months. I lose more due to splitting them with my mouthpiece cap than them failing to play.

The reeds will warp after about 4 weeks of playing, but I file them using the Vandoren resurfacer and then they are stable and play beautifully for a long time. I have two reeds in my case that are almost 24 months old and are still responding well and sounding great.

Due to the warping issue and the filing, I always buy reeds a half to a full strength harder than I think I play. I think I play 3 to 3.5 but actually buy 3.5 or 4 strengths depending on the reeds.

I recommed you try this. It takes me a total of about 4 to 5 hours over the four days that this takes, but the money that I save overall is worth it.

There are some reed brands that I have found this method does not work with and think it is because they are inferior reeds in general. It is wasted on LaVoz, Rico Royal, Alexanders, Glotins, Rico Jazz Selects, Vandoren ZZs, Hemkes, and the Woodwind brand. I can never get these to stablize. The reed brands that I have found work best with this are Rico (Orange Box), Brancher, and Vandoren (Blue Box pre-individual wrapped reeds).

If any one has any questions, I can answer the questions as they pertain to me. I know I have a copy of the Ponzol Guide and I can try to find a copy of it to send you.

I hope this helps and is not too long an answer.

Zoot Horn

08-09-2008, 11:18 PM

I don't mean for this to sound combative, I'm just asking --

I used to do this. I thought it took too much time. I slowly eliminated all the steps that didn't seem critical and was left with my description above. It now takes me minutes instead of hours. I just got to the point where I thought I wanted to play instead of screw with reeds. My results are similar to your results.

At other times, I tried just throwing away reeds until I found the ones that played. That seemed really silly.

Is it possible to compromise and cut corners and get 80% of the way there with 20% of the work?

jmathesonjr

08-10-2008, 02:05 AM

I do all of the steps above while I am practicing and warming up. So while the reeds are soaking, I am practicing a tune or tune. When I have to play for a minute, I run through the scales. One can play the major scales in all keys easily in one minute. It may take 20 minutes of waiting for the reeds to soak. So what? I practice for longer than 20 minutes they can soak while I use an already broken in reed or I can practice flute. I need to play test them and play them to break them in. If I am breaking in ten reeds at a minute each, I can run through a set of scales: Major, Natural Minor, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, Diminished, Whole Tone, Chromatic, Blues, W-H Diminished, Diminished Whole Tone, Major Pentatonic, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Locrian, Super-Locrian, or any of the thousand of other scales. I am going to practice them any way.

When I am done working on the reeds that need it, I can go back to working on one of these items, learning a tune, patterns, or any of the thousand other things I have to practice. I can also play through Blue Bossa in all keys or another tune that spans a limited range in all keys while I am breaking in the reeds.

I have never believed that one can cut corners in music. If one wants to get there all the way, one has to travel the whole diatance. Reeds are an organic item. They cannot be hurried any more than I can. I just know that since I have been doing this work, my sound has improved, my reeds have improved, my lip strength has improved, I am spending less money, I am throwing away less "junk" reeds, and I am getting less and less frustrated, except by reeds that are non responsive from the very first playing.

Personally, this works for me. I average buying about three boxes of bari reeds a year now. I may get a new brand here or there to try or experiement, but of the brands that work for me, three boxes a year. Two years ago I did not buy any reeds, last year I bought one box and this year I have boought five boxes. I have three left to open.

I have found great success with this. I have also found two brands of reeds that this system works extremely well. The others are just a waste of time. I have yet to decide if Vandoren is worth the trouble. Brancher Reeds are great, but getting harder and harder to find. I don't need any now, but I know I will in the future. Ricos are decent, but I am not very happy with their feel.

Try this if you want. Again, shortcuts just don't exist in music.

hakukani

08-10-2008, 03:15 AM

I just find a 4 decent reeds, and rotate them every day. After I'm done for the day, I squeeze the excess water out of them by pulling them between my thumb and pointer finger, and storing them in an old fashioned reedguard. That's it.:)

I don't soak them, or work on them in any way, other than sticking them in my mouth. I figure if I wanted to spend time on reeds, I'd go back to playing oboe.:D

I wish I could help your problem. I've never had reeds warp this way--ever.

bari_sax_diva

08-10-2008, 04:05 AM

It happens to me on alto, and boy, is it frustrating. I'll be watching this thread for a solution...

cmelodysax

08-10-2008, 09:44 AM

Kryz - I know you've tried other mouthpieces, but is it always with the same lig ? It shouldn't matter, but in your picture I notice quite a big air-space between the sides of the lig and the reed. Do you have any other ligs, even with the screw on the underside, that maybe hug the reed a little tighter to the table ? That, combined with moving the lig a little more towards the tip/heart, would be worth trying.

I do exactly like hakukani does - have a clip-full of rotating reeds for each instrument, just wet one the mouth for a few seconds before use, and semi-dry each one before returning to the clip, obviously having spent a little time initially testing/blowing each one in at the very start of it's life - and hardly ever any reed problems except eventual old-age and an occasional bit of wrinkling at the tip... I also swear by (not at...) vintage reeds, well worth the trouble of finding old stock.

kryz

08-10-2008, 09:46 AM

Hi,
thanks for your replies!

@jemathesonjr:

I'm breaking the reeds exactely as you described it, but it doesn't help. Also flattening the table doesn't work.

The warping is really heavy! If I close off the shank with my tumb and blow into the mouthpiece, the air is coming out on the sides as I blow in! not much resistance!

This problem occurs with several reed brands. RicoRoyal, RJS, Marca. I figured I don't like Gonzalez and Vandoren.

Chris

edit:

@cmelodysax: I tried a Rovner - no improvement, but I'd like to get a Vandoren Optimum!

milandro

08-10-2008, 10:03 AM

maybe it sounds silly, sorry about that, but, are you tightening the ligature way too much?
Because if this happens with different mouthpieces or ligatures it must be something that you do.

jmathesonjr

08-10-2008, 02:03 PM

Kryz,

The reeds I find that do this particularly on Baritone Saxophone are those that I think are inferior: Rico Royal, RJS, Marca, Glotin, Gonzalez, and the other none name brands. The best reeds I ever played on Baritone Saxophone were Rico Jazz (not the Select). they were the best and Rico pulled them. The next best are Brancher. These are great reeds if you can find them. And then there is Vandoren. These could be good reeds if the packaging was better. Ricos are decent reeds as well.

I stand by my method. I use it to great success and end up with great, consistent reeds. The sound of the baritone sax comes from the reeds. It is driven by the reeds. The ligatures and mouthpieces have a say in that sound, but if there is zero vibration from the reeds, you got nothing. I baby my reeds and the extra time invested in my reeds is paying off in my playing and my sound.

I have five reed working tools: Vandoren Resurfacer, Harrison Reed Well, Reed Guards, a 1/4 inch piece of glass, and distilled water. That is it. I spend about 20 - 30 minutes while practicing on my reeds. I get to practice and my reeds get into better shape.

Like I have said: Try this.

The problems described here sound more like the problem is in the quality of the reeds and not the process.

Good Luck.

kryz

08-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Are you talking about the Ricos in the Orange Boxes?
Have you compared Vandoren ZZ vs. Vandoren Blue Box??
I tried Vandoren Blue Box once and found them a bit stuffy.

btw, I tried a synthetic reed again, works good but the sound is not acceptable.

thanks for all your replies! I guess I have to go and break in a couple of reeds now - use what I have first and then buy a box of every brand that might work! Unfortunately
baritone reeds are about 5Euros each.

Chris

Chris Peryagh

08-10-2008, 02:24 PM

Hi everyone :)
I have a problem, that bothers me for a really long time (several years!):

My reeds on Bari are leaking heavily - I guess because of warping.

The exact spot is marked in the picture!

http://img246.imagevenue.com/loc428/th_11516_bariton_122_428lo.jpg (http://img246.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=11516_bariton_122_428lo.jpg)

They work great if I take a new one, but after a few hours (maybe 2-5) they start somehow to soak in water. They don't respond and start to get unplayable. Soundwise they're fine - if you can get a tone!

I tried several mouthpieces, refaced ones and stock ones and also several brands of reeds, but the problem stays.
Of course I break in the reeds and then store them in a LaVoz reedguard with flat surface.

To me it seems nobody has ever encoutered such a problem... :(

Any help is appreciated!

All the best

Chris

I used to get this kind of leak a lot when I used to use Plasticover reeds as they are less likely to absorb moisture as cane reeds and then conform to the rails of the mouthpiece. I've had this trouble on occasion with normal cane reeds, but far less than with Plasticovers.

So far (touch wood) Vandoren ZZ bari reeds seem to be laying flat on the table and not leaking at the side rails at the base of the scrape as I can get these to work instantly (although their lifespan is very short).

I usually do a vacuum test when I put on a reed (both new and used) to make sure it's seating well and not leaking at the side rails. Soak the reed thoroughly and place it on the mouthpiece as you would normally do. Then block the end of the mouthpiece shank with one hand and suck the air out from the tip opening. The tip of the reed should close onto the tip rail and stay there when you take it out of yor mouth.

You should then have a vacuum that holds for several seconds (and makes a hissing sound) and then the reed 'pops' open once the vacuum goes. If you get a vacuum that holds for less than a second or no suction at all, your reed is leaking against the facing and you won't get anything but squeaks and the whole instrument feels unstable as if there's a leak at the top end.

I've had players contact or even bring their bari to me to have a look at as they don't work for the player (squeaking uncontrollably and playing like there's a leaky high F pad making the whole instrument unreliable) - and more often than not I can find nothing seriously wrong with the bari (nothing mechanically or structurally that would otherwise prevent it from working), but mostly caused by the reed leaking at the side rails at the base of the scrape when I have a look through the tip and along the side rails.

You can also test for these leaks by playing a sustained G, and while still playing, press the reed at the base of the scrape against the mouthpiece with your right thumb to see if this clears things up. You'll notice the change in tone and response once the reed is forced against the facing.

Being that a bari reed is such a huge thing and the flat surcface is vast, it's little wonder that it will warp as cane isn't a stable material by any means. It's something we all have to use and put up with, and also something we have to understand and know what to do when things aren't working for us.

Sigmund451

08-10-2008, 04:20 PM

I prefer ligs that place downward pressure on reeds. I think rovners are horrible. I once spent a half hour working on a piece I thougth I screwed up in a reface because the reed woudnt seal. I changed to a non-rovner lig and it sealed like crazy.

If its not your lit it can you your table. Additionally, its not always just the table. Frequently the spot where the reed leaves the table is not even. If its too far off it cause leaking and/or spittle.

bari_sax_diva

08-10-2008, 06:28 PM

If its not your lit it can you your table. Additionally, its not always just the table. Frequently the spot where the reed leaves the table is not even. If its too far off it cause leaking and/or spittle.

In my situation, it's happening with an alto mouthpiece that has been refaced by one of the best guys in the business, and it happens regardless of ligature. It's obviously something *I'm* doing, but I'll be darned if I know what it is.

kryz

08-10-2008, 06:50 PM

In my situation, it's happening with an alto mouthpiece that has been refaced by one of the best guys in the business, and it happens regardless of ligature. It's obviously something *I'm* doing, but I'll be darned if I know what it is.

Same here! I had this with my stock Link HR 8* (with Rovner!), an STM transitional 9 that was refaced (with Rovner) and now with the pictured Charles Bay piece.

BUT:

I just fooled around an hour with reeds and started braking in 3 new Rico Royal and 4 Marca superieure. If I tighten up the ligature as hard as possible and move it as close to the tip as possible both old and new reads seal better. But even with the new reeds only 3/4 Marcas and 1/3 Ricos seeled very well.

Soundwise there's not that much difference.

So I guess a ligature that really presses the reed against the mouthpiece could help here.

@Chris Peryagh:

That's exactely my problem! Thats for pointing this out again (in better english, too :)).

thanks for all your replies

Chris

jbtsax

08-10-2008, 07:40 PM

There is one idea that hasn't yet been suggested, and that is to polish the backs of the reeds.

I use a good quality stiff paper, the inside cover of a method book is ideal. Set it on a perfectly flat surface such as a piece of glass or a formica countertop and rub the moistened reed back and forth with the grain using the fingertips. Gradually increase the pressure as you do this. After about 100 strokes it will start to "click". When it does this continue with another 50 strokes. When you remove the reed and look at the back it should be smooth and shiny over the entire surface. If it is not repeat the process. This can be done again and again on the same reed over time to prolong its playing life and to improve its response.

The concept here is that the polishing seals the pores on the back of the reed and allows the water to run off the surface better like the droplets of water run off a newly polished car. When the underside of the reed does not absorb moisture as readily it will have less tendency to warp.

I think you would also benefit from knowing the flatness of you mouthpiece table. This is easily checked by pulling your mouthpiece toward you once or twice while pushing down firmly on a flat hard surface. The "shiny" spots or "scuff marks" will show the high spots on the table if it is not perfectly flat.

John

Sigmund451

08-10-2008, 08:47 PM

To easily check the table you can also drop it down from the beginning of the facing curve (dont drop it from space) and it should make a pat sound not a tap sound. A really nice table creates a cushion of air as it lands. For reference try it with a metal link. There is a distinct clank. Refaced it has a nice sound.

...and again, simply having a flat table does not guarntee that the facing starts in the same spot since its lower than the table (obviously).

bari_sax_diva

08-10-2008, 09:09 PM

There is one idea that hasn't yet been suggested, and that is to polish the backs of the reeds.

It probably goes without saying that you have to clip them after doing this, huh?

Guess it's time to invest in a trimmer. What really bugs me is that I'm down to four working (sort of) alto reeds right now, and I may have to play lead tonight so I'm kinda panicked. A box of ten is only lasting me about 2-3 weeks right now. :(

hakukani

08-10-2008, 09:13 PM

It probably goes without saying that you have to clip them after doing this, huh?

Guess it's time to invest in a trimmer. What really bugs me is that I'm down to four working (sort of) alto reeds right now, and I may have to play lead tonight so I'm kinda panicked. A box of ten is only lasting me about 2-3 weeks right now. :(

I don't even own a reed trimmer...I usually play on the same four reeds for two or three months, depending on how much practicing I have time for.

trowpa

08-10-2008, 09:22 PM

i got a reed trimmer - used it a few times as a way of prolonging the life of a tired reed - but its not a solution - just a bandaid to get you through until you have another playable reed ready.

I'm a big fan of the 5 day process similar to what's been discussed earlier:
1. soak/dry
2.soak/dry/play a little
3. soak/dry/play a bit more and mark with pencil
4. soak/dry/play even more - confirm marks with pencil are still accurate
5. soak/dry put in rotation

kryz

08-10-2008, 09:42 PM

Hi,
I tried to sand reads on the back with 1000 sandpaper, but that wasn't a solution.

btw, could anyone explain to me what stiff paper is? Couldn't find anything in the dictonary :(

Chris

jbtsax

08-10-2008, 11:20 PM

It probably goes without saying that you have to clip them after doing this, huh? Actually polishing the backs of reeds does not remove any material, hence it doesn't make them "softer". I have found that it frees up the response of some reeds which is a different thing entirely than making them softer.

btw, could anyone explain to me what stiff paper is? Couldn't find anything in the dictonary :(

Chris
The stiff "card stock" paper that is used for the covers of music method books is what I was referring to. Ordinary typing paper would be too apt to wrinkle as you rubbed the reed across it. Regular cardboard or fiberboard is not flat enough.

John

jmathesonjr

08-11-2008, 02:33 AM

I check the flatness of the backs of the reeds by placing them on a flat piece of glass and with my thumb and first finger on either side of the reed on the bark end I see if it wobbles from side to side. If it does, I sand the reed until it is flat. 99.99% of time the reed swells in the middle area of the flat side of the reed. It will do this almost immediately after first hydrating the reed. Once the reed is allowed to soak in a much water as it can evenly, this will stabilize in 24 hours. The reed has some water in it, but not enough to be effective and stable. It needs to be rehydrated. The reed will again swell. It will restabilize after drying on a flat surface for 24 hours. The reed is not fully hydrated at this point. It needs more water. Once it has it, and has been played awhile, it will start to get to a level of hydration that it needs.

I have stated earlier that I use distilled water to soak my reeds. I don't use tap ar well water because of the impurities and chemicals added to this water that is absorbed by the reeds.

Reeds are nothing but a sugar cane. It is very fibrous. These fibers give it the strength that the reeds have. These fibers are not as flexible nor as strong dry. Ever tried to cut, break, or burn a fresh piece of wood as opposed to a dried piece of wood?

Taking a reed out of the box and expecting it to be perfect and play beautifully is like trying to bend a 2X4 at Home Depot. Soak the 2X4 repeatedly and then try to bend it. You might be able to then.

I have students who experience this same problem. I have my students soak their reeds and keep them flat. When they need to have their reeds filed, I file them. Never had one student have a problem after I have taught them my system.

Reeds are not manufactured at the same quality level. For Bari, I have found the best reeds to be Brancher, Rico (orange box) and Vandoren (Blue Box). Ronnie Cuber uses Rico reeds. Gerry Mulligan played Vandorens. The most unstable bari reeds have been, in my experience, Rico Royal, ZZs, Marca, Glotin, Alexanders, La Voz, Hemke, Woodwind, Grand Select, and any of the others in the WWBW catalogue. I have tried them all. I have some Branchers in my case that are almost 2 years old, I have Ricos that are going on 12 months old, and Vandorens going on nine months. Every last one I could play on a gig tonight.

I may be the oddest bari player on the planet. I have been playing the same mouthpiece for the past decade. I take the time to break in my reeds. I take my bari into the shop every 18 months to 2 years for a check up. It is working for me. I am happy with my sound and ability at this point in time. I am also improving.

I am here to say that the method I use works well, shortcuts don't.

MojoBari

08-11-2008, 03:43 PM

I play a YBS-52, Metal Quantum 12, and Fibracell reeds. I used to do the cane rituals but gave them up more than 25 years ago. I have and have had plenty of gigs. Sound is not an issue.

If you have a good reed ritual and you do not mind doing it, keep it up. Otherwise consider commiting to synthetic reeds and find a mouthpiece that works well with them.

Purchase a few synth reeds every 6 months in an effort to get them from different lots. Then micrograde them into 1/4 strengths, since they do vary some. I like 2 3/4s and 3s. Mouthpiece table is flat, reed table is flat. Reedguard is flat. A synth reed often lasts 6-12 months of heavy playing... and it feels the same each time.

kryz

08-12-2008, 05:16 PM

I tried a Fiberreed and don't like it. Very harsh and edgy and I also don't want to switch mouthpiece again. The Charles Bay mouthpiece is really really really awesome!

skippy

08-12-2008, 05:24 PM

Fiberreeds are different from Fibracell reeds. I agree with Mojobari that Fibracell reeds are worth your consideration.

MojoBari

08-13-2008, 01:42 AM

Many synth reeds are buzzy, etc. But the Legeres are real dark (too dark for my tastes except on clarinet). The Bari brand reeds are a good bright synth reed (too bright for my tastes now but I used to use one on tenor). The Fibracells are "just right" for me. But I think you might like a Legere. If you you do not like the strength you buy, I think Legere will still exchange it for a different strength.

I have tried a few others, but I never tried a Fiberreed. Just trying to help. If you do not change something, you will always get the same results.

jmathesonjr

08-13-2008, 05:38 AM

I have tried the Fiber-type reeds, Legere, Fibracells, etc, over my 30 years of playing Baritone Sax and have not liked one of them. I feel that the reed is playing me rather than me playing the reed. I don't like the plastic feel against my lower lip. I don't like the inherent lack of flexibility of this man-made reeds.

I find that the organic nature of the cane reeds lends itself nicely as a bridge from the human element of saxophone, the player, to the mechanical element of saxophone, the saxophone itself.

Many players have gone over to the "plastic" type reeds. I can usually tell when they have. There are things lacking in the playing when players play on these reeds. I don't know if some of the harmonics are lost or what.

Reeds are the biggest variable in playing any instrument that requires one. I find the unwillingness to spend some time in working the reeds rather disconcerting and surprising. It is not like it is really taking time away from practicing or cutting into some other activity. It seems like those that have given up working on their reeds have done so to work on aspects of their playing that they have deemed more important. They will also, in the same breath, complain furiously about how crappy their reeds and sound seem to be.

I do not care how much time and energy a musician puts into the technique of the instrument, how much time one practices scales or licks, how much time one spends transcribing or learning tunes, or how fast the musician can play, if that musician sounds bad, that musician will be thought of as bad.

I know many saxophonists who change their mouthpiece almost weekly looking for that perfect sound. I know many saxophonists who have purchased dozens of saxophones to get that perfect sound and response. All of these people do it looking to sound and play like Parker or Brecker. Yet, I guarentee that Parker and Brecker would sound like Parker and Brecker no matter what mouthpiece or saxophone they have. Parker proved this time and time again.

There are no shortcuts to be taken in music. Never have been any and there never will be any. If a musician cannot afford to take an hour or two out of his practice schedule every six months or year to break in some reeds, then please don't complain about your reeds and sound. It is completely unrealistic to think that a piece of dried wood will come out of a box and after about ten seconds of resting in one's mouth be ready to produce sound beautifully and perfectly.

My reeds are stable. My reeds play well. My reeds produce a good sound. My reeds last for long periods of time. I work on my reeds.

kavala

08-13-2008, 05:53 AM

1) Only buy good quality reeds.

2) Don't keep playing them forever. Chuck them out after a week.

Why go budget on the very thing that is creating your sound ?

bari_sax_diva

08-13-2008, 07:31 AM

Many players have gone over to the "plastic" type reeds. I can usually tell when they have. There are things lacking in the playing when players play on these reeds. I don't know if some of the harmonics are lost or what.

. . .

There are no shortcuts to be taken in music. Never have been any and there never will be any. If a musician cannot afford to take an hour or two out of his practice schedule every six months or year to break in some reeds, then please don't complain about your reeds and sound.

Okay... which of these two players is using a "plastic" type reed?

Guess the reed? (http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/jhall2-01.m3u)

Just to confirm, you *are* hearing two bari players in that clip.

MojoBari

08-13-2008, 04:19 PM

I think Nick Brignola's sound has more to do with his mouthpiece choice and tonal concept than his synthetic reed. On the 3 baris Mulligan truibute CD he has a sound that is in-between Cuber and Smulyan.

jmathesonjr

08-13-2008, 09:16 PM

bari_sax_diva

08-13-2008, 09:37 PM

Tim Price

08-13-2008, 10:40 PM

Jennifer Hall and Roger Neuman. It is very obvious that there are two bari players on this little track. This is not one of my favorite bari recordings, especially when they choose to do a tribute to Gerry Mulligan and don't really meet the expectations of the master they are memorialising.

My review of the snippet is that the first bari player to solo has a very flat (not pitch wise) sound which I find is typical of a doubler. It just lays there and does nothing. There are little inflections in the sound. The second has a more vibrant sound, but still gives me the impression that this player too is a baritone saxophone doubler. The second player seems to have some control over his or her sound. If I had to guess on which one is playing a non cane reed, I would say both. Neither had any of the harmonics I like to hear in a sax sound. One was just a flat sound and the other was edgy but with nothing really there to speak of sound wise.

WOW....A-m-a-z-i-n-g.

typical of a doubler ?? OH. Jennifer Hall is a BARITONE SAX JAZZ PLAYER #1. She's from LA and works with Jack Sheldon, Pete Christlieb, Dancing With The Stars, Family Guy...just to name a few. This has gone on with her since she was a teenager- Pete Christlieb is going to be on her next CD btw.

Roger, has made a living for decades upon decades. A great player on anything. Maybe not bazantar ;), but any sax/ woodwind. He also started as a tenor player. His bari playing is pretty high class.I wish I could arrange like him too BTW. FWIW:)

Do you know Francisca Mulligan bought a couple dozen copys of Jenn's CD.
She was totally into the respect and great musicianship on that disc.
What does that say? Hmmm???

Not trying to start a war here dude but you really have a lot of guts making comments about someone like her or Roger who are pretty WELL RESPECTED in the biz in LA. Eg- making a living.

By the way, Jennifer is a very good friend of mine. Not only is she a brilliant musician but she's for real in the music. EG- A hard worker.

Anyone who gets Jack Sheldon to appear on a Mulligan disc, when Jack played with Jeru, is my kinda hero. That sais more than anything.:)

Like I said, no offence, But you were right about the reed. She uses a plastic reed, and has a Low A Selmer bari < to die for > and a great Brill Level Air Mouthpiece.

Jennifer Hall is a very serious musician- and her CD is an asset to the Mulligan tradition.

Zoot Horn

08-14-2008, 04:00 AM

I really appreciate what everyone wrote about the way they work with reeds. I've been hoping for a thread like this for a long time. You all have shared a lot of opinions to think about. Thread slike this are the reason I come here.

Thanks.

jmathesonjr

08-14-2008, 04:34 AM

I understand the level of the two players that are on the Hall disc. I know that Hall is among other things a multi-reed player as is Neuman. I also realize what a great arranger that Neuman is as well.

However, the two, in my opinion, do not excite me as Bari players. Mulligan was the epitome of a Baritone Saxophonist, composer, arranger and performer. His sound had that something that is missing in players who are largely doublers. Of the two players on that fragment, the first soloist had an almost dead sound. There was little to no character to it. If the names of the players were not known, I would guess that most would agree with me. The second soloist had more to the sound than did the first, but it was not anything I found all that exciting. It was not a very special sound.

I have also stated in previous posts here that I can usually guess when a synthetic reed is used, which I did here.

I have found that subtlety of sound is lacking in many Baritone Saxophonists' sounds. Pepper Adams, Nick Brignola, Gary Smulyan, Ronnie Cuber all have a tendency to sound like a freight train. Most listeners expect the Baritone Saxophone to sound like a freight train going full tilt. No one demands that this instrument show any finesse or beauty. Many Baritone Saxophonists sound alike. I listen to James Carter, for example, play a ballad on Baritone Sax and his sound can make my head hurt and teeth itch. I believe it was George Shearings wife, who is quoted as saying, that Mulligan was the only Baritone Saxophonist who, when she heard him play, did not make her teeth itch. I know exactly what she means.

I just feel that the sound I heard on that track was not the best sound available on Baritone Saxophone. I feel that there are some things missing. It may be that whine or that finesse or the full harmonic spectrum that is possible to attain. If you also read what I said previously, you will notice that I did not say anything about what they played, their choice of notes, their rhythmic ideas, their motific ideas, or any of the other things that go into crafting an improvised solo. Based the sounds of each player on this track, I would not be inclined to purchase a disc by these two. The other aspects of their playing would change that inclination.

I feel that if you take the personal connection out of the equation, you might agree with me. I personally would like to hear a Baritone Saxophone solo and be able to immediately know who the player is like is possible with players like Getz, Rollins, Mulligan, Parker, Leo Parker, Harry Carney, Hawkins, Young, Webster, and a host of others. One has to admit that Tenor and Alto players are more distinguishable by their saxophone sound than Baritone Saxophonists are. This fact confounds me.

Tim Price

08-14-2008, 05:33 AM

Lets get the thread back on track;:D

CARRY ON BLOKES.....REED AWAY ;

MojoBari

08-14-2008, 03:31 PM

Tim is right. It does take a lot of restraint though. I glad I can hear the power, subtlety, beauty and finesse in all these bari players. I feel sad for those who do not.

Tim Price

08-14-2008, 03:51 PM

Tim is right. It does take a lot of restraint though. I glad I can hear the power, subtlety, beauty and finesse in all these bari players. I feel sad for those who do not.

Thank you.8-)

skippy

08-14-2008, 04:39 PM

I agree - let's get back on-topic.

But fwiw, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand what jmathesonjr is saying. Even though I use and recommend synthetic reeds, I agree that there is more nuance to the sound of a cane reed. Having played synthetics for a number of years, I believe I can tell when someone else is playing them, too. There's no need to be offended just because someone doesn't care for a particular player's sound, even if the player in question is a personal friend.

bari_sax_diva

08-14-2008, 05:35 PM

Okay, this will be my last comment on this topic...

But fwiw, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I understand what jmathesonjr is saying. Even though I use and recommend synthetic reeds, I agree that there is more nuance to the sound of a cane reed. Having played synthetics for a number of years, I believe I can tell when someone else is playing them, too.

For the record, jmathesonjr was wrong on this one. He guessed both players were playing synthetic reeds. Actually, the one whose sound he was less critical of ("a more vibrant sound") was the one playing a synthetic reed.

There's no need to be offended just because someone doesn't care for a particular player's sound, even if the player in question is a personal friend.

I think there's a huge difference between stating one's OPINION and making a critical assessment of other players' supposed shortcomings based on that opinion. To state a preference is no big deal; e.g. "I don't care for Sanborn's sound." However, to equate that preference with FACT; e.g. "Sanborn's sound is flat/does nothing," implies inadequacy, which is why people here get offended. Frankly, it's disrespectful... especially if you're a grad student who's making harsh criticisms of some VERY well-respected (among their PEERS on both coasts) professionals.

And finally,

This is not one of my favorite bari recordings, especially when they choose to do a tribute to Gerry Mulligan and don't really meet the expectations of the master they are memorialising.

To presume Mulligan's "expectations" has to be one of the most arrogant statements I have EVER read on this forum. Interestingly, the project discussed here received virtually unanimous critical praise, in part because it was considered to be such a strong tribute to Mulligan and his work:

I've heard a number of tributes to the late great Gerry Mulligan, none warmer or more persuasive than this. Jennifer Hall, a superb baritone saxophonist whose abiding respect for Mulligan is evident in every note she plays, has assembled an all-star group of West Coast musicians for a heartfelt remembrance...
-Jack Bowers

Sorry to everyone for inadvertently pulling this thread off-topic, but I didn't imagine that a "guess the reed" quiz would lead to this... and I just couldn't let these points go un-addressed.

jmathesonjr

08-14-2008, 08:26 PM

I have been a student of the baritone saxophone for many, many decades. I have listened to literally thousands of hours of recordings. I have my favorites and Hall and Neuman are not on my list. I respect what they are both doing, but in my opinion, they are doublers. When I saw that Hall had released her CD, my first thought was she was trying to capitalize on Mulligan's death. The title of her recording was a compete borrowing of Mulligan's most famous recordings. This is fine, great even. However, I expected a bit more than what I heard.

You can attack me and my status as a recent graduate. That is fine. However, I have been a musician and jazz historian a great deal longer than I have been a grad student. I have heard and studied the nuances of the Barione Saxophone for decades.

To me Hall and Neuman are great instrumentalists and arrangers, they are just not at the level of Mulligan on Baritone Saxophone. The sound I heard was not anything that I found fits me or my expectations when I listen to tracks that are a tribute to Mulligan.

Would I be hubristic to think that I could do a tribute album with the tite jamthesonjrmeets . . .? No. I would also not do a tribute album to Mulligan in a pianoless setting either. Mulligan had a very large place in music. He had a very distinct sound in his writing, arranging, and playing. No one has come close to filling his steps.

Also, how does anyone know who was playing a synthetic reed on this track? Was everyone who states that A or B was definitely playing a certain reed there in the recording booth with the players? If I am not mistaken, this CD was recorded over 3 years ago, was it not? Who here remembers what they were playing on a particular gig last month let alone a year or more ago? If you do, you have a far better memory than I do.

Finally, who is Jack Bowers? What is his connection to Hall, Neuman, and Mulligan? Was that quote taken from Hall's CD? Is that quote his opinion? If it is his opinion, why is his better than mine?

My opinion is mine. If one does not like it, might I suggest either not reading it, trying to agree with it or getting your own? I am a big boy. I can take it. My wife doesn't like my opinion all the time.

As far as synthetic reeds are concerned, I don't like them, I don't like the sound they produce, and I don't play them. I stand y my statement that I can usually tell when someone is playing them. My percentages rise when I am not at the mercy of a recording engineer being paid by the artist who is being recorded.

But that is just my opinion which is pretty much all that anyone can post on this forum.