Kenny G

[Jazzophone]

Don't shoot me just yet -- I saw that collective shudder. Hear me out first.

Anyone who's mildly into jazz will tell you that they've been taught to think of Kenny G as the 'Anti-Jazz.' I've wondered -- why? His music isn't THAT bad (it's at least endurable -- give him some credit guys!) Is it because he isn't an improviser? We all know improv is the essence of jazz, but is that all? Why is Kenny G viewed as so non-jazz?

Come on, let's hear your opinions.

[BlockAM]

He is considered by many to be a sellout. He obviously has some natural talend; I don't think anyone will deny this! However, instead of choosing to persue a real jazz career, lured by the money, he went mainstream, which jazz will never be. All his music is the same; he lacks that desire to constantly bring his music to the next level, and it was this very thing that drives all great jazz players: Trane, Rollins, and just about everyone else. They don't and didn't do it for the money; they did it because it was who they were. The fact that people liked it and paid money to listen to it was ,and is, just icing on the cake.

[RS]

Kenny G? Never heard of him.

[Jazzophone]

good point BlockAM ... he's good, and all, definitely. but you're right, he's "pop sax" and isn't of the take-it-to-the-next-level sort. sucks, maybe he could have been a huge jazzist, you never know :D

[Gandalfe]

A lot of musicians that I know feel that jazz isn't pop, easy to listen to, elevator music. Jazz should be complex, artful dissonance, and clever rhythms. If everyone likes it, it ain’t jazz. One of the funniest quotes I saw in an article somewhere about the K-man was, “Kenny G is to jazz as Mr. T is to acting.”

That said, I own many Kenny G CDs and play against them. I like him and many other saxophonists. Sometimes a feel like I need a little Kenny G. But my next CD might be a little Bird, Klemmer, Getz, or Desmond—it really depends on my mood.

[Morry]

Actually, he sounds a heck of a lot better than I ever will. I don't like his music, but who says he sold out. Maybe shallow elevator music was what he always wanted to play. Different strokes.

Kenny G is to jazz, what Mr. T is to jazz. :P

[Grumps]

All professional musicians do it for the money. To think otherwise is absurd. Some take more risks, but the bottom line has always been money. Trane, Rollins, whoever. Kenny G is a professional musician, and an extremely successful one at that. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[mr00420]

Kenny G. is a popular saxophonist, but he is NOT a Jazz musician. His music has no syncopation, nor does it have much improvisation. Not that these are necessary requirements to make Jazz (look at the MJQ,) but they are elements of what most people consider standard Jazz. I may be wrong, but I don't think he's even done what a lot of elevator music players do to legitimize themselves as jazz players... that is: produce some cheezy cover of some classic jazz standard. He's a "pop's" player, and is more similar to a classical saxophonist, but please, don't try and legitimize what he does by trying to classify it as Jazz. People who do this show they have very little knowledge of Jazz music or history, and do so b/c they think that any pop sounding instrumental music must be Jazz. By the way: "not that bad" is really up one's own interpretation... I would say his music IS unbearable.

The man won't even sell music under his true and full last name b/c he doesn't think mainstream white bread Americans will buy sterile instrumental saxophone music made by an artist with a traditionally Jewish last name.

[gary]

I agree with Grumps. How many of those criticizing Kenny G for selling out can honestly say they make their living playing hard core jazz? If I read the poatings on this site correctly, most of the people here making a real living at playing are doing in in R&B, rock and pop. Therefore to say Kenny G is selling out is the pot calling the kettle black.

I am a jazzer, first and foremost, but I ain't gonna sit here and tell you that I don't go oüt and play Livin La Vita Loca...and enjoy it, as well.

I think some of the criticism is hypocracy, some band-wagon-itis and some plain old jealousy. Jealousy because he's making millions and we're not.

Now, what makes me sour isn't that Kenny G is a bogeyman but that the society from which he springs has such unsophisticated tastes that it makes millionaires out of people like him while relegating real masters and artists to peripheral positions, with the accompanying lack of stability, income and respect. Kenny didn't create that society but is a product of it. And shame on society, not for liking rock and pop, but for being so myopic as to not appreciate wider forms of music, classical included.

Having said that, such musiciians as the Gster, in order to avoid retribution, need to take care that they do not profess to be something they aren't. Kenny G gave a recent interview that, IMO, put him over the top. He was crowing about how he could burn through Giant Steps and how he learned to play "all that stuff", etc. He even had a laughable comment about how Bird got his name. With this interview, he left himself wide open to a certain amount of disrespect. Not for selling out by being a successful pop musician, but for being arrogant and pretentious.

[Anonymous]

There are those who say Jazz died with Jellyroll Morton!

There are those who say scarcely a note played since Parker died can be called Jazz!

There are others who say that scarcely a note played since Coltrane became God can be called music!

None of them dare take on Kenny G for fear of being considered "for" or "against" the wizard of blase'! Any opinion will cost them half their audience!

[kcp]

I got this friend who is a scientist, he plays saxophone as a hobby, says playing saxophone helps him take off the everyday stress. He can't improvise, but he's ok.

Got this other friend who studied litterature, cinema, philosophy and many other fields and she plays sax semi-professionally. She isn't likely to become a master-improviser ovenight, but she isn't a bad player at all; She can play very well in fact, and stick to the lead-sheet she's given. What's wrong with that? Ensembles need to have some players like that. If everyone improvises then who's gonna play play the part supporting the soloist?

I used to have this other friend (he died recently), he was real passionate about music. As a young man (in the 50's) he was playing in ballroom orchestra. Then he got married, got children, he had to give-up music to support his family with a job that paid more... What a big sacrifice IMO. Towards the age of retierment, his family beeing raised and all, he started playing saxophone again. He went playing on the streets and did some small gigs too. He never improvised, but he was a good player. People enjoyed what he was doing and he was earning some money doing what he loves.

You know, I got the greatest respect for players like that. There is nothing wrong with that I think. Yet, why does it it become "wrong" when a guy like KG does it and earns a lot of money for doing it?

[Morry]

I applaud, actually envy, anyone who can make a living playing this horn that I love so much. I would have given anything to have been blessed with enough talent to succeed at it professionally. I don't care if you're playing polka music on your axe, if you're making a living, good for you.

As long as Mr. Gorlick doesn't proclaim that what he plays is jazz, then I don't have a problem with it. He is an excellent 'pop' saxophonist, and I give him kudos for that.

[Jazzophone]

gary: you're right. In the sort of music world we have, you can't make a decent living playing just jazz. Pop and rock and R&B and everything else has sort of infused itself into the everyday scene and people want to hear all of it! I guess it's sort of a "musical diversity" thing. :P

Kim: I don't think we're trying to say it's wrong exactly, because we're all musicians and we know that if you love it, you gotta do it. What I personally was wondering was why jazz has such an antagonistic attitude towards Kenny G -- and it seems that some people have pretty strong opinions! :D nothing wrong with that of course, just personal voice ... and definitely, you're right. Improv isn't everything -- just a lot of it. Lead players are needed too, and KG is one of them.

Morry: same here!! I really admire anyone who can make a living off the sax -- it's such a great instrument and no matter what you play, if you love it, and manage to live off of it -- well, good on ya.

I think even the change of name from "Kenneth Gorelick" to "Kenny G" sort of signifies a slide into pop. Popular music does focus on a marketable name (just like any huge entertainment industry -- Hollywood, for example), but with jazz, it's more music than market image (usually). But hey, give the man some credit anyway: he's a pop man, but he's still a saxman. 8)

[saxomophone]

A lot of you talk about him "selling out".

Maybe he isn't selling out. Maybe he honestly likes the kind of music that he plays and wouldn't play any other style no matter how much you paid him.

If this is the case, I say good for him. He's happy doing what he does. Isn't that everyone's dream?

Also, I think you are giving him too much credit to imply that he is selling out, like he coule and would rather be playing "real jazz". If he really wanted to do that, he would have put out a real jazz album at some point, even if his target audience wouldn't buy it. It's not like he doesn't have the money to fund it himself.

As much as I don't like his music, it is a catalyst for some people getting into jazz that normally would never listen to it.

all just my opinion, though.

[minstrelite]

I agree with Saxomophone. Who's to say that Kenny G doesn't sincerely enjoy what he plays? Why shouldn't he? After all, a lot of other people do. I haven't listened to him intently, but heard an album of his last year which I thought was very pretty. And I've occasionally seen him on TV, and he looks pretty into it to me.

I listen to Jazz radio all the time, and would be very surprised if Kenny G were played on this particular station. He is not Jazz. But at the same time, I haven't heard him being knocked among many professional musicians of my acuqaintance. I play music for a living, and I play many styles which I wouldn't personally listen to. I have to, in order to make a living. If someone can play something he enjoys and make a living off of it, more power to him.

[gary]

I had a humorous experience. A fourth-grader who is a private student of mine, saw a soprano sax and asked me what that "funny metal clarinet" was that sounded almost like a sax. I told him what it was and showed him mine. I added, this is what Kenny G plays, thinking this would help him relate. He looked at me quizically. I said "You've never heard of Kenny G?" to which he said no.

So I put a CD on the player, and you could see the wheels turning in his mind as he listened, but still no recognition. Then, a light went on; his eyebrows raised and he smiled, and he looked at me and said "Ah...Kaufhausmusik!" (Department store music)

[Anonymous]

i think some of the resentment about KG is related to him hitting the mother lode vein when it comes to commercialism & peddling stuff to the public, but his apparent attitude that what he's peddling is really good stuff, and that he's a hot player who can play jazz, pop, etc. Two compeletely different statements, here...

What he should probably be recognized for(successfully) is tapping into something that'd make him a household name & quite rich. What he shouldn't be recognized for is being a great player. Too bad he can live with one, but can't stand the other :cry:

Would be interesting to have seen what'd happened if someone who was a really fine player(and a real jazzer) had done what KG did - would they be put down, as KG is, or would they be recognized as a hot player who also has some good commercial stuff out?

As i used to hear when i was a kid, "talent ain't a prereq for makin' it in showbiz"...pretty much sums up KG on that one.

[srcsax]

Yawn.....i had hoped we would have gotten over this by now.

I wonder how many hack guitarist get flamed by other guitarist? Probably not many. they just move on to the player they dig. I know i do.

Besides, i think Kenny Garrett is awsome!

[Keith Ridenhour]

I had this whole argument with my Dad about 40 years ago. In my teens when I was an aspiring Jazz trumpeter I used to call up the progressive rock stations and say that they were ripping off black music and why didn't they play jazz instead of pop. They politely listened, probably thought I was a crank and then took the next caller. Now, as I'm older I have nothing but respect for someone who can consistantly fill a large auditorium and entertain a crowd of people with whatever style of music. Do you think that the people shopping in the record stores are in a debate with themselves over if they want the latest Kenny G Cd or the latest hard core jazz CD??? Unlikely. Most people want a certain kind of music and might stray a little from the midline. There are markets for all styles of music and if Kenny is making a good living doing his thing more power to him. He doesn't hurt anyone else's chance to play and market their own music. In fact I think that we live in an unusual time where you can turn on a radio station and get a 70% chance of hearing a Sax recording and I like that. Styles will change and this too will pass so enjoy it while it lasts. People like what they like and you can't argue tastes. So , like anything else in life enjoy what you can and if you don't like it , listen to something else. I remember reading critics complaining that Miles Davis and John Coltrain weren't playing "real jazz" . (Read that to mean what was popular at the time in the gendre.) Same thing for Ornette Coleman, not "real Jazz". Whatever, back to praticing. K

[JL]

I never thought I'd post anything on this topic, but can't resist relating an interesting experience I had the other night. I turned my car radio on late at night coming home from a gig and heard Coltrane's familiar soprano playing "My Favorite Things." Then it ended mid-phrase and a talk show host came on. His first statement was "I can't believe my producer is playing Kenny G; I thought she was hipper than that." I almost swerved off the road. I listened for awhile to see if anyone would call in to correct him, but no one did.

Perhaps this is why so many resent Kenny G. Until this experience, I never gave him a second thought. Now I realize that the soprano sax is no longer identified with Coltrane or Sidney Bechet, but instead with Kenny G. I don't really blame Kenny G., I tend to agree with gary that it is the society we live in. Just be glad that you (all of you on this forum) are among the minority of cats with the ability to tell the difference between Coltrane & Kenny G.

[WhisprnJohn]

A friend of mine who went to school with Kenny G. at the University of Washington and who is a good sax player himself insists that Kenny can indeed play and has simply found a musical license to print money and is going to ride that horse until it dies. I don't particularly care for his saccharine stylings myself, but I do like his seldom heard R&B/pop tenor playing. My feeling is that he has a lot of talent and could be a respected "real" jazz player if he wanted to, but has achieved fame and fortune in the pop world and likes it that way. One purpose of art, I have been told, is to elicit a response from the beholder. Judging by the amount of real estate the Gster is taking up on this forum, I would say that he has at least achieved that.
Any one for some Cannonball?

[Harrell]

There is something similar about the carping of 'real jazzers' and other types of artists / performers (stage actors, performance artists, painters et cetera). Public radio often has discussions about the low funding that the arts gets from the taxpayer.... and the 'real jazzers' complain about the lack of commercial success or they lampoon someone like Kenny G because of his commercial success.

Nobody owes anybody else a living. The artist that makes art that few people want shouldn't be annoyed or offended by the lack of interest in his work. He can sit smugly and confidently offer his disdain to ignorant masses, since he is cutting off his nose to spite his face.

Jazzers shouldn't be annoyed if they offer up a form of music that few people want to hear.

No where in the Universe is there a guarantee of an appreciative and paying audience. Not for fringe 'artists' and not for every tin jazzer. But they act like they deserve one regardless.

On the other hand, I believe that most truly great or gifted musicians and artists are eventually recognized.

[arsenic87]

A few weeks ago, I heard a really nice song, on tenor, on the local swing/jazz station out of the north shore. Was suprised to here it was by kenny g. With the exception of the cheesy babkground music, it wasn't bad.

[Lee]

I started participating in this forum about 18 months ago. Prior to this forum I never gave the Kenny G issue a thought. It wasn't exactly my style of music or of much interest. I thought and, still do, think it's pretty cool that the saxophone is getting some mainstream promotion. I think this helps to bring the attention of listeners and new players to the saxophone.
Everyone's musical taste is different, if you like Kenny G than listen, if you don't than change the channel or CD. One thing for sure is KG can play his horn and I believe that is what sells.
I don't have any of his music not because it's mostly simple tunes but because it's not the style I prefer.

[Jazzophone]

good point ... mainstream sax is something we're all dreaming about, and go KG for making it that way. he loves what he does and can LIVE off of it -- what a dream that would be!

I don't think the point was to harp on him "selling out" (I don't think he did, personally -- wouldn't selling out mean on yourself? and if he loves what he does and continues doing it, well, he's staying true to his musical path).

IMHO he does have some pretty good soprano talent and you're right -- his tenor's not bad either. Suffice to say that for a fourteen-year-old who's just leaning into "real jazz" as some of the hardcore cats put it, Kenny G was a pretty good transitional guy.

[soulsax]

Now I didn't totally finish reading all the above G poop .. Enough to post and keep this half as$ to the point. (As I see it) ...Talking John Coltrane and Kenny G in the same thread is too broad really to make much difference one way or the other. Both play sax. They are both "labled" as jazz. Calm down now! Was Louis Armstrong jazz? Benny Goodman? What about Grover? Bird?.. stop. Ok who picked Bird? If you said yes, you got that one right. The others are all open for arguement really. My opinion. They all played jazz! Kenny's getting beat up pretty good on this thread and thats ok, he's use to it and he's got plenty money for a doctor. What about the others who are blowing all the "ssssssmooth jazz"? If it's not jazz then what? Pop? I really don"t know. disco jazz? When I turn the fm on to 95.7 Houston's all new "smooth Jazz", what I here is a lot of sax playing. What is it?.... Haven't read all the Kenny G interviews but enough to know he's got and ego. Im not suprised. He's made a lot of money and is popular. But as good as he is' he ain't no Charlie Parker, or Louis Armstrong. Not even close. Really he shouldn't be compaired to that era...Jazz what is it? Ok, Someone draw a line...~~~... He "changed his name cause he's Jewish"? :evil: Jew's cant be sax players?

[puresaxman]

Kenny G is a very prolific player. His techniques are hard to match with any current player out there. His rep. is that he's to much of a syruppy player and that's what given him the "pop" player not jazz player motif.
He's a great player but alot of people don't care for his style. My thoughts are if you can pick up your soprano and rip out "songbird" lick for lick then and only then can you rip on Kenny G.

[Jazzophone]

soulsax -- I don't think all of us are trying to rip at KG. I don't think mr00420 was trying to be anything close to racist with the comment about Kenny having a Jewish last name. The pop market is very demanding and very image-oriented: having a marketable name is a big big thing. It's not that he's selling out on himself -- he's making a living on music, just in a different industry than some of us might have expected. Jazz or pop, it doesn't matter in the long run. Isn't jazz indefinable, anyway?

[rollen]

How can anyone honetsly say that he is a sellout. Last time I checked, he has always played the same type of music. A sellout would be someone that started playing straight ahead jazz or hard bop, didn't sell any records then swithed to pop or smooth jazz. He figured out how to sell records and stuck with it.

Are the Beatles sellouts because they played pop/rock? I don't think so.

Kenny G, whether you like it or not, is a very talented saxophonist.

[Morry]

I look at it like this...Chuck Mangione played "pop" music, as did Herb Alpert. Are they my favorite brass players? No. I'd much rather hear some Miles or Maynard. But their mainstream airplay got people realizing that instrumental music is worth listening to. The more folks think that way, the more playing opportunities there are for all of us.

Now, brush that hair out of your eyes Mr. G, and play me a sappy tune on yer soprano :P

[MonchMan]

I agree with you Morry, but I remember in the mid/late 70 that Maynard had sold out, and was becoming pop. Maybe they find an audance amoung the masses, that other don't

[Jon B. Bop]

I put Kenny G into the same catagory as the "artist" Thomas Kincade, You know, 'the painter of light'. He's got stores in every mall in America selling his very 'pretty' paintings.

These guys have decided to work with an eye torward commercial success. Nothing wrong with that.

It just makes for very bland, lowest common denominator kind of art.

[MusicMan]

You know, I never really gave Mr. G much thought until after I performed my first soprano solo in church...someone walked up and said "Great job, Bobby F!" Although the person meant well, I didn't know if I was insulted or not...

As far as commercial success goes, how about Spyrogyra? Can it be said they also gave commercial soft pop/jazz a boost?

[Anonymous]

No one flipped out when Getz did Ipanema!

Or Cannonball did "This here"...Wes Montgomery did everything...Jimmy Smith did Walk on the Wild Side....Debbie did Dallas!

The question seems to be that, if it's okay to make money playing, is it okay to play SPECIFICALLY to make money?!?

[Jazzophone]

depends on how you do it. if you play specifically to make money but end up loving it, totally. kudos to you for finding your niche, which I think Mr Gorelick has done in this case. if you play for money but hate it, well, you're selling out on yourself, no? then it's not so good.

[soulsax]

What's religion, politics, and kenny g have in common? A heated discussion :argue: This is about the 4th or 5th "G thread" in a couple yrs here on sotw. A pretty good too. He's got talent and has made a lot of $. His music does often sound the same. When he came on the scene back in 90 91 (?) I had a down beat magazine given to me. He was on the front cover. Inside was a fairly long interview. I do remember him talking about his practice. Said he practiced about 4 hours a day, every day 7 days a week for about 10 to 12 yrs. He knew a long time ago what he wanted to play. When Songbird got so much play the record company decided to give him a lot of play. He was a hit so they held on to the boy. The type of songs that he played was not at all new. G was just one of many players who were playing that style sound. I soon went to a concert he did in Houston. 91 gussing, and shortly bought a few of his older albums he'd released before he was anything more than another sax recording artist. I think Kenny G is happy with what he does mostly because of the paycheck. Nothing more really. Call it what you want,(his music) he is very good at it and it sells. Now, Im going blow this alto laying next to me, and wonder who's writing about Kenny G...

[FrankB2]

OKAY..IF nothing else the guy generates a crowd (or a long thread). My
MAJOR problem with the G man stemmed from an interview he did with
Charlie Rose a few years ago on PBS. Rose asked Gorelick about
Charlie Parker, and the maestro dismissed his Parker's music as nothing
more than a fingering exercise!!!!! What a jerk. I'm only guessing that
Kenny might have heard a little about jazz when he played with Jeff Lorber
but who knows.

Sellout??? No way. He was never good enough to "sell out" the way
some people say Wes Montgomery did with his string albums. Gorelick's
just cashing in on yuppies that like easy listening, but don't want the
"easy listening" name. Smooth Jazz sounds better, but to me Paul Desmond is "smooth jazz". I watched a Kenny G concert on cable
a month or so ago, and he must hire some great musicians: his
playing style is all over the place, but these guys managed to smooth
over his poor sense of tempo. He blow a soprano in his guitarist's face
for nearly an entire song as well, but I guess they get paid<G>.
MY idea of jazz involves an interaction among players, and if it's
a solo, at least a sense of rhythm and structure.

OH YEAH!!! During the Charlie Rose interview, Gorelick proclaimed
himself the successor to Grover Washington Jr!!!!!!!!!! That's not
even CLOSE.

Frank

[FrankB2]

I didn't read all the posts here before posting myself. One thing I'd
like to point out is the challenging/inspiring aspect of JAZZ on
other musicians. Behind every great jazz player, there's another
great jazz player that inspired him/her. Look at Eric Dolphy's
influence on so many players. He caused them to examine their own
direction, and move in a positive direction regarding the MUSIC, not
the money. Many people point to the effect of Coltrane's wailing on
players like Rollins, Pepper (who even played tenor for a while as
a result of Coltrane), etc. Look at Parker and Gillespie: they moved
the music to a new ground. Ornette Coleman had an impact on Coltrane,
even if others might not have liked his free jazz.

SOOOOOOOOOOOO, we get a prominent, financially successful
musician (Kenny G), and the genre takes a hold of other
players that might have pursued music rather than cash. About
ten years ago, there was a radio station in NYC that played
"smooth jazz". They had Parker, Toots Thielmanns, Kenny G,
Basia, Wynton Marsalis, etc. It was a nice mix of easy to listen
to jazz and jazz-like music. That station now plays Marvin Gaye,
and calls it "smooth jazz"????????? I don't get it. Money talks
in the bigger world of music/arts, and the guys that want the
high exposure are going to go the Kenny G route: it's already
paved. Dave Koz et al, are just Kenny clones, and while they
might have contributed something to JAZZ, they've chosen
snazzy xmas albums, etc. It hurts listeners as well, because the
generation that grows up listening to "easy listening" being passed
off as "smooth jazz" is going to mistake JAZZ with elevator music.

Oh well, I'm done<GRIN>.

Frank

[TRWham]

Two important data points for this discussion:

1. http://music.barnesandnoble.com/features/interview.asp?NID=598266

I am especially amazed by this exchange with KG:

B&N.com: What sort of things are in your personal listening rotation at this point? Do you listen to a lot of music?

KG: No, I don't listen to a lot of music at all. I'm actually more into...I don't know. I'm just more into playing golf. It's a great thing. I work on my music, and I play my albums, and when I'm done, I'm done.

The man's own words say it all.

2. http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/arti0900_03.htm

Metheny seems even more annoyed by KG than most sax players.

[Anonymous]

If he's done. why don't we serve him up with cranberry sauce?!

[johnsax]

This whole Kenny G thing has me a little baffled. I never imagined that so many sax players would resent him so. He's not MY favorite but then I'm not into "pop" music. I don't think, however, that there are many people that contribute to saxontheweb forums who wouldn't be ecstatic to be able to play as well as him.

Is he a jazz performer? I doubt it. To my way of thinking, jazz is a very special, rarefied musical form not specifically intended for a broad audience any more than true classical music is. Musicologists have no doubt developed specific criteria defining jazz, criteria that Kenny G's music doesn't meet. I may be wrong but I don't think he's ever really marketed himself as a "jazz performer". In fact, to do so would probably REDUCE his desirability to mainstream audiences.

That said, I think he deserves a certain amount of respect, even awe. While clearly, many people here don't like his music, there is a HUGE audience of normal, decent people who are DEEPLY moved by his playing. How many of us can routinely engender this type of response in their audience? Talk to anyone who does like him. To them, his music is clearly not "elevator music".

John

[FrankB2]

I don't know. My beef started with him running down Charlie Parker's
JAZZ, and then annointing himself the heir to Grover Washington Jr.
(he did that while Grover was still alive). It kind of freaks me out
that he plays out of the of his mouth. I began formal training on clarinet
at 9, and was giving lessons when I was 14. It's not cool to hold a sax
like a flute<GRIN>.

Is he crowding out the jazz scene? I'm not sure. While Joe Lovano and
Kenny Garrett are fabulous musicians, it's Kenny G that gets the air
time. It's likely, however, that these stations would NOT give much
air time to the Lovano's, Garrett's, etc. They're easy listening station
that find the "smooth jazz" label easier to market than "easy listening.
I'm 40 years old, and I'm sure lots of people here remember easy
listening stations, and musicians that labeled themselves as such.
It's sort of like me microwaving frozen fish, and calling it "quick
cuisine". There wouldn't be a trained chef out there that would be
quick to correct my label<G>.

You know Kenny plays TENOR out of the side of his mouth<G>???
Maybe he has a dental problem, but otherwise I don't get it.

Frank

[Cameron Wigmore]

I didn't bother to read anyone else's rants, but I feel the urge to join in. Kenny used to play GOOD jazz. He actually cut a record before he got famous that was good, ( good meaning improvisational and in the vein of classic standard jazz). Then he went commercial and became famous. That's why a lot of cats gag when he's brought up. He made it in this biz, but had to change his style to do so. It's like a slap in the face to all those who would stay true to their art.

[mr00420]

A lot of people were deeply moved by John Tesh's music, but I don't think anyone would be willing to label him an accomplished pianist or performer, rather than what he is: an Entertainment Tonight host w/ no soul.

[soulsax]

Whats baffleing me about this thread is all the talk about how good, or not so good the boy is. He's good! If he ain't,, He fooled me. :A-Run: But to compare himself to Charlie Parker is bold. To insinuate a compairison is pretty dumb too. Oh Well, I use to halfway dig the little fart. But he can take his sax and go home. Reminds me of when Whitney Houston said she was more famous than the Beatles! In England too!! > Uhh,,,,Yea.

[Anonymous]

well, at least Mangione had good tunes and some hot players in his groups, and Herb Alpert can actually play trumpet quite well. Neither of these comments applies to the G man; tunes aint much, he ain't much, and he for sure doesn't include other people that can play on his albums...

[Jazzophone]

oh I wouldn't say THAT! sure maybe his tunes are labelled as 'elevator music' sometimes (or a little more often than sometimes), and maybe it's not the style that all of us hardcore jazz cats go for, but you've got to admit he's half-decent on his axe, no?

as for the people playing on his albums, well, that's his problem I suppose ... :dazed:

hey, how many of you SOTW cats listen to Kenny G at all? just curious. I do, sometimes ...!

[Jazzophone]

forgot. Cam: what's the record called? worth checking out maybe?

[mr00420]

Honestly I haven't (intentionally) listened to Kenny G since I puked listening to "song bird" as a kid. At that point I was still a neophyte to jazz... I just started to "understand" Coltrane and Bird, but loved Gillespie and Basie and Ellington (especially the Duke, and the Rabbit, etc.) I think I really got attracted to the sax listening to the "New Wave" and white reggae bands at the time: English Beat, Joe Jackson, hell... even Duran Duran and Men at Work.

I have heard Kenny G. since then, but I don't listen to it (I definitely change the station whenever it comes on.) I can tell you this from what I HAVE heard: while you expect most players to improve and evolve as players and composers over time, Kenny G. has done neither. His popularity still revolves around the same harmonically styled runs which other than being fast, are not technically difficult (I think most people would agree it's easier to whip around diatonic scales on a soprano than an alto, tenor, etc.) He also continues to consistently play out of tune. He doesn't play w/ other known musicians b/c he doesn't want to be embarrased by having the audience compare him w/ someone who actually tries to progress what can be played on his instrument.

What "baffles" me is that some people on THIS post think he CAN play well. Considering the other artists available to listen to on his instrument (Trane, Bechet, Shorter, Lacey... the last two still currently playing) this guy is of school band ability. I'm wondering what about Kenny G.'s playing some people find good? I can think of some saxplayers whose usual styles I don't like (Brecker, Sanborn, F. Morgan, G. Washington,)
but everyone knows from what they DO play that to say these players are technically proficient would be an understatement. I can disrespect their musical choices but not their ability. With Kenny G. I disrespect both.

[Lyle]

I recall giving my son my opinion of Rap.

He answered with: They (whoever they were?) make four million a year. How much do you make with your music?

I still did not like Rap but he sure had a point! :)

[Lyle]

I like to hear you guys get riled! :D

Its entertainment!

I like elevator music.
I would like to be able to play as well as Kenny G. I don't care much for Sop but would like to try it. My ears can not tolerate high pitched sounds, like a baby screaming, or a cat's claws on a tin roof. I purchased one K.G. CD but wont get another as I prefer tenor for the more soothing sound. Perhaps more listeners prefer K.G's music to your's, and mine. How much does he make in a year?

How can I get you guys riled?

[FrankB2]

Money does not equal talent. McDonalds serves billions, but it's
not haute cuisine. It's not even healthy :) .

I have a Jeff Lorber Fusion ALBUM on which Kenny GORELICK appears.
It pre-dates the Kenny "G" moniker. He CAN play, but so can lots of
people. Not being able to match his ability or wealth doesn't preclude
a person from offering his/her opinion of Kenny's music. If so, those
who praise him, and can't play "as well" would have no legitimate
grounds for their critique either.

I've found myself driving down the road, and not realizing that I had
been hummng to a Kenny G tune for a couple of minutes. I also do the
same thing when commercials are played :) Now if Coltrane's
"Central Park West" comes on the radio, I realize it instantly. We all
LOVE saxophone (RIGHT???), but it's only natural to react to somebody
who gets all the attention, while our own sax heroes often go unknown.
It's kind of annoying to some (myself included) when we take out the
sax and somebody says "Hey, it Kenny G" :) I suppose that from
the audience's perspective, that's a compliment, so..... Who DO we all
like?????? Now there's a constructive thread topic.

Frank

[Jazzophone]

I like elevator music.

Haha, that's classic. :lol:

But seriously. mr00420 has a good point. Kenny can maybe play some simple stuff and sound good (though the sounding good is a completely subjective matter for most), but he's not Trane or Parker or even Sanborn. The thread here becomes very Star Trek-esque: it's all about making yourself a better person, or in this case, musician. If you don't you're virtually wasting your time.

My take, anyway ...

[SaxyAcoustician]

A lot of people were deeply moved by John Tesh's music, but I don't think anyone would be willing to label him an accomplished pianist or performer, rather than what he is: an Entertainment Tonight host w/ no soul.

Whoa, wait a sec. John Tesh put out three CD's (yes, THREE) featuring all saxophone (Sax on the Beach, Sax by the Fire, Sax All Night). A man who does that much for the saxophone has to have soul! If we saxophone players don't support those who promote our instrument then we're a bunch of retards, plain and simple. :?

I caught a bit of Yanni's Tribute video years ago, care of my dad, and there happened to be some phenomenal violin playing (by Karen Briggs) and saxophone and flute playing (by Pedro Eustache). Monster players who made the concert a delight to watch. Now who wants to cut on Yanni? Apparently, he knows talent when he hears it.

Let's respect those musicians for what they CAN do, not for what they can NOT do. Whether you want to believe it or not, Kenny G CAN play. He ain't the greatest but he CAN play.

[Pete]

This is as much from Zman as it is from me:

(From Zman) 'Kenny G' is one topic that has an amazing tendency to get really overheated. I'm just trying to make sure that the combatants avoid personal shots, since these threads frequently come down to: "You're an idiot!" "No, you're the idiot!", etc.

Please keep on topic: if you're starting to post about other poster's posts and opinions (say THAT 10 times fast), you're off-topic.

[mr00420]

I don't support music I don't like. This is why I don't support Kenny G. I'm also not going to support other artists, who's music I dislike, just b/c they use the saxophone, either. I'm not a retailer so I really have no interest in promoting my instrument.

[Jazzophone]

the idea isn't to promote him -- if you don't like him, hey, you don't like him :P but yeah, SaxyAcoustician is right, respect the G-man for what he can do. at least he tries, right? can't knock a musician for giving it a shot. 8)

[pfox]

Maybe I'm missing the earlier point, but I don't believe the idea is to promote the instrument itself, but rather the playing of the instrument. We're not trying to sell saxes, but if Kenny G opens people up to the beauty of the saxophone sound (even if you don't care for his particular sound), this can lead to more use of the saxophone in popular music, or unpopular, for you hard-core jazz fans, more players, more innovations, and more sharing of techniques and information, which is what this board is all about. The logical conclusion of all this is world peace and ultimate domination of the species by sax players! All this from harmless little Kenny G.
For all who still can't release their hatred of Kenny, be consoled that most people don't realize that's a sax he's playing.

[soulsax]

Very well put pfox... For those interested, go to "Kenny G Cover Page" (Google) and read. It's brief, yet it provides some good imput on what he has done for the saxophone. I could care less if some don't like his music. Thats personal taste and nothing more. But more than a few must like what they hear because he has sold over 50 million records to date. Not bad! Yet he can't play? He plays out of tune? Where does he play out of tune? Which tunes? He can"t improvise? Have you ever seen him read sheet music on stage? He play's simple scales? What scales arn't simple? They are all simple. But a scale is nothing more than what it is. A scale! A "simple" scale can get unsimple real quick. That's what solos are made of. Choice of notes, how you apply your personal tone, rythem, ect. Kenny G has a reciept that works, and he sells it. Do you want to be a serious preformer? Then pay attention to what ur "fans" say. Get the non musicians imput. If ur not interested in what they say and you want to do ur own thing. Cool, play ur horn . Don't worry, be happy. But don't whine because you feel under paid or under reconized. What you play is your choice. Like him or hate him, the G man has done far more good than harm for the saxophone.

[mr00420]

Like Pfox said most people think the guy's playing a metal clarinet. I prefer what good Henry Selmer did for the saxophone. Let's have national sax month! Yah, saxophone P.R.!!!

[FrankB2]

Yet he can't play? He plays out of tune? Where does he play out of tune? Which tunes? He can"t improvise? Have you ever seen him read sheet music on stage? .

I watched a Kenny G concert on cable a couple months ago. It was taped,
and there were brief interviews with Kenny throughout the program. HE
brought up the issue of playing in tune and keeping time. He acknowledged playing out of tune, and changing tempo when it "felt right".
I don't know if he was responding to Pat Metheny's criticisms, but if he
was, he did NOT address the necrophile charge that Pat made in an
interview<GRIN>. In the movie "Hail Hail Rock & Roll", Keith Richards
complained that Chuck Berry would decide to change key in the middle
of a song they had practiced for 2 weeks<GRIN>. Kenny's is essentially
a solo act, so playing in tune or time isn't as important to his music (in
my opinion). I'm not a fan of his current music, but I do have an album
of his music with Jeff Lorber (some written by Kenny), and he holds his
own. It is a studio recording, so I guess that might not mean a lot.

Frank

[Joseph Boucher]

I've heard the name 'Kenny G' connected with the sax. I know that many people here don't care much for him or his music. I've never heard him play. Well now I will. My better half just brought home a CD of 'Kenny G' tunes. I'll give it a listen and then make my own judgement. I'll post my findings later. Joe.

[sessionsax]

I like his playing just fine -- as for tuning, I think he does very well considering that he typically plays a MK VI soprano in the upper range. Its not easy to tame thoses beasts -- expecially with his choice of mouthpieces.

His tenor tone in my opinion is very good as well. I don't personally like his alto tone, but 2 out of three aint bad.

I think he has done a ton for bring the awareness of instrumental music back to the public eye. Judge him for what he does best -- "Pop" instrumentals. Don't try to compare him against true Jazz players. Thats not where he is coming from.

If Sanborn, Grover Washington, and Kenny G had not come to be, then a lot of us would be playing small jazz bar gigs the rest of our lives.

There is nothing wrong with Pop saxophone. The masses connect with it and it elicits intrest in the instrument.

Why get all riled up about it, just take it for what it is.

[Anonymous]

"Why get all riled up about it, just take it for what it is."

A punishment from God for Deifying Coltrane!

Karma, my friends!

[asian sax]

i liked his rendition of summertime :D

[Joseph Boucher]

Okay, I just hear 'Kenny G' on CD for the first time. He's alright. I don't think I would buy another CD of his though. I guess it's just a matter of taste. I don't think he's great nor is he that bad. Yet, I don't care for every sax player I hear either. I just don't understand why the big debate. Listen to who you like and forget the rest. Joe.

[jp3]

Commercial sucess in music, as well as the other arts, is not all about talent. Marketing, shameless self-promotion and timing have a far greater bearing. Are Schwarzenegger and Stallone great actors? I doubt it. Are Grisham and Clancy great writers? Not likely. Warhol a great painter? I don't think so. But, I'll pay to see an Arnie movie; I have Clancy and Grisham novels on my shelf and I've owned one or more Warhol prints in the past.

While smooth jazz and the G-man don't do much for me, he's no different from these other guys who've learned how to work the crowd.

I had a high school English teacher who advocated the reading of crappy novels. He felt that by doing so, one would appreciate good writing when he later experienced it. How's that for a reason to listen to G?

[sessionsax]

Good point jp3,

I will also add, that everyone has something to offer -- it just may not appeal to everyone.

Kenny G doesnt offend the majority of listners, on the other side he generally entertains.

Like all artist though, there will always be someone to critisize the work -- whether it be music, art, or literature.

I dispise traditional opera, but I can stretch myself to find the artistic good of it.

[saxshooter]

When the single "Songbird" was released, whenever it was, in the late 80's I think, I remember hearing it on a local top-40 radio station. My first reaction was, "Interesting to hear instrumental saxophone music on a Top 40 radio station." I didn't remember hearing instrumental music on Top 40 since Herb Alpert's "Rise". And my second reaction was, "Hmm. That guy could hold his breath a long time (circular breathing)."

I then spent 10 years living in Asia, where many people, upon hearing that one plays sax, say "Ah! Kenny G!" And most supermarkets and restaurants play Kenny G. as background music.

Now, if Kenny G. has brought instrumental saxophone music to the ears of people who wouldn't normally be exposed to such music, great. If those people take that new interest a step further and explore more complex saxophone music, even better.

If they just buy Kenny G. to play at their dinner parties or as bedroom music, great. Kenny G. has made a sale and is providing a service. I remember watching some interview from some jazz festival where Kenny G. spoke about an anecdote where a fan came up to him and said, "Man, my wife and I were listening to your music when we conceived our first son." And Kenny G. felt honored (!)

For me personally, I haven't bought any Kenny G. since that original Songbird single (I think it was even a 45 and I sllowed it down to 33rpm to try to transcribe those runs at the time, but I soon realized it was just "finger wiggling") and don't listen to him since he is musically boring.

And if I find myself in a supermarket playing Kenny G. on the soundsystem, I walk out. That's my prerogative.

[LionTX]

I think a jingle from an XM Radio station (70 - Real Jazz) says it best: "If you're looking for Kenny G... you've got the wrong station. This is real jazz, etc."

Here in Dallas area, you can only listen to the "smooth jazz" FM radio station (if you're into cruel and unusual punishment), but there's no place to hear the real thing.

LionTX

[puresaxman]

Just think about this thought for a minute. What if a 9 year old boy is listening to Kenny G right now because he hasn't been exposed to what true jazz is. He decides to pick up a saxophone and start playing. Twenty years from now he's the best Jazz player around and has revolutionized the horn. Then what Kenny G had done really isin't bad. HE may have exposed certain people to the sax that wouldn't have been exposed otherwise. :D We may have or next Charlie Parker or someone else? 8)

[Anonymous]

Or....

He loves Kenny so much that he systematically kills all the sax players who don't sound like him....starting with Sanborn and Becker.

Hey, you're right something good might come from it!









Oh, BTW, I'm kidding! :lol:

[Jazzophone]

LOL. That sounds like our radio station -- we've got The Breeze 103.1, they play "smooth jazz and easy listening." It's good, most of the time, but it's mainly people like KG, Brecker, Sanborn, Dave Koz etc ... if you want straight jazz, you've got to listen to the late-Sunday-night show or the 6.30am show on this other radio station. Period. It kind of stinks.

If KG inspires someone to pick up a horn and completely change the musical world, congratulations and a thousand thanks to him. It's all about perspective and how you interpret the music. In jazz (and music generally) you have to be extremely open-minded :P

[johnsax]

Larry Teal says in his book that no topic will get saxophonists more worked up than disagreements about intonation. I think we've proven him wrong in this thread.

John

[rhino004]

Selmer Fudd...or worse yet...the kid turns into another Kenny G!!!

[pfox]

LionTx,
There is real jazz on the radio in North Texas, you just have to go all the way left on the dial, same as in most cities. KNTU, 88.1, and KTCU, 88.7, both play real jazz, because they are college stations and don't have to worry about sponsors. The smooooooth jazz stations are the same around the country. Most are owned by one of the two or three big media messes, and if Marvin Gaye is jazz, why can't they play Joni Mitchell, who definitely knows how to assemble real jazz sidemen for an album? I've never heard KennyG on college radio, although the smooth jazz Oasis seems to put him on whenever the DJ needs a pee break.

[mr00420]

Yeah all these stations are almost identically named... You mentioned "the Breeze" I remember someplace had a smooth jazz station called "the Wind." I think a name like "the Winds" would be a more appropriate title for the quality of music these stations play.

[Jazzophone]

definitely. it's all air. :oops:

[hornstar]

I think it's the overproduced sound that irritates me, more than the simplicity of KG's music. That overprocessed sound takes all of the life out of the instrument, yet strangely appeals to the masses, most of whom are completely intellectually non-curious about music.

As to intonation, ever notice Jackie McLean? You'll immediately recognize his sound, largely because he plays sharp, and apparently that's intentional.

[mr00420]

Kenny's not going for the dissonance effect; Jackie is. Jackie doesn't "fweedle the neer;" Kenny does. As you noted, it's all about intention.

[Anonymous]

So, exactly how do we know what is and is not intentional?

How is it that we say with some certainty that Kenny G's music is not EXACTLY what he intended?

Was Coltrane's incomprehensible groping in no particular music direction intentional?

Did Becker deliberately sanitize his music until every single ounce of soul was exorcised?

Is David Sanborn intentionaly risking a massive stroke by over-blowing every single note of every single song?

If anyone cared, it would be on the front page of the Enquirer!

[ferrari]

For anyone that's been coming to SOTW for a while, we always vainly hope and pray that the current Kenny G thread will be the last. Yeah, right! May as well hope it doesn't rain in Seattle.

Selmer Fudd; Come on man don't hold back on how you feel about Coltrane. Tell us how you really feel! :wink:

[Anonymous]

Just trying to supply a little editorial balance!

Like the American Bandstand rating system, nothing deserves a zero and nothing deserves a ten. I'm tired of seeing performers who are equal in every way get pushed off the musical map by a few, often undeservedly aclaimed, elite.

Constantly pummeling this group of gurus is a dirty, thankless job, but I feel someone has to do it and since few here seem to have the cajones, I assume that portfolio!

[ferrari]

That was intended to be a humorous reply, hence the :wink: Maybe I should have ended it with :lol: :lol: :lol: , but you know these emoticons can get overused, even though they are nice for conveying intent.
Selmer Fudd, I enjoy your posts. They're either, helpfull ,( you seem to know your way around a studio and electronics ), or sarcastic and thought provoking. You seem a bit thin skinned considering your reply, but as we know, the internet is not quite like a face to face conversation. Personally I like Coltrane a lot, but did not when I first heard him, and I can certainly understand anybody not liking his music.

As far as cojones go, what the heck do they have to do with posting on a web forum. The degree of anonymity here certainly precludes that word around here other than to denote a male or female poster.

[mr00420]

More gall than ball... did you mean Donald Becker or Michael Brecker?

[Anonymous]

I simply meant that few are willing to point out that the emporer could be naked as a jay-bird! Apparently, the old "rubber-glue" syndrome has it's grip on the membership!

Perhaps the cajones jab was a bit over the top, but when I hear grown men scream about Coltrane like thirteen year old girls at an Eminem concert, raging testosterone does not immediately come to mind!

My apologies to mister "Becker", I did, indeed, mean to finger "Brecker".

Once again, I "respect" all of these masters, but I refuse to deify them as long as there are MANY equal or superior choices in the field who go nearly un-noticed to their graves.

It's even possible that my views would change if I actually LIKED any of the players in question!

Oops! Was that a pig flying out my butt? I didn't think so!!

[Larry G]

I think Kenny G has a great talent......... but like I said before, he's my brother ! Also that sax guy Kenny G has a great talent, not my style but I'll still bet he could kick my silly blues butt and most of yours too !! Larry G

[Jazzophone]

http://www.offthemark.com/Images/music/music22.gif

This is the Off the Mark from Sept 23/02 -- it's been taped to my day planner since it appeared in the paper, and I thought it was pretty funny. No offense to those who are fans of the G-man, it's all in fun!! :D:D

[altoman]

Well, someone here mentioned before something about KG's surname being jewish etc. I am pretty sure his surname is in fact Gorelich and not Gorelick. That is how his mother spells it. So that would mean his background would be Croatian or somewhere around there in Eastern europe. That has nothing to do with his music but it worths a mention because he is the guy who recorded his musical diarrhea all over Armstrong. What gives him the right?

[Keith]

huh....money????

[soultwist]

The way I see it the guy has been heavily marketed to be able to sell that many records. He couldnt do that by talent alone. He just aint that good. There are lots of guys that could have done the same thing. It just happened to be him.That´s propably what pisses people off. And that his ego has inflated to absurd proportions from his commercial success.

Here´s a quote from a page promoting one of his records that says it all:

"With over 70 million albums sold to date, Kenny G has proven himself to be one of the most gifted musicians in the world. His newest album Paradise is as breathtakingly romantic and beautiful as fans would expect from such an incredible instrumentalist."

I just accept the fact that a lot of people around the world likes to listen to stuff that i consider to be crap. Come on folks, a player who is out of tune that much is NOT a great player!

[SopranoSue]

IMHO, Kenny G is an average musician who sold himself to play elevator music. Yes, he's famous. Yes, he's sold many albums. Yes, he's arrogant. Yes, he's rich. BUT, the people who buy his albums stilll thinks he plays a big clarinet.

He was in the right place at the right time with the right marketing technique. Gotta give him credit for that.

Personally, I know of at least 4 people who went back to playing sax (after a 20+ year abscence) and tried soprano because of him. They are happy playing for themselves, but it's notable that they came to the same conclusion: He does scale runs and long notes, and after about 3 songs, they all start to sound the same. You can immediately recognize it.

I can listen to about 2 songs and then shut it off. That's on a good day...

I liken him to the Madonna of the soprano sax world. Instantly recognizable, huge marketing success, but not something I'd listen to on any regular basis whatsoever...

[mrzonules]

My Jr. High band teacher (very excellent teacher might I add...) went to College with Mr. G. The sad thing is, they both have the same curly fro-mullet hair cut. And my teacher was a female... He really is quite ugly...

I listen to Kenny G all the time. But wait! don't go away now... let me explain myself...

First of all, he is a master (not THE master, but one of them) of his soprano, and his TONE certainly has the most character and clairity ever. It's almost TOO nice. I listen to him 1.) because he's a local guy (lives in Seattle) 2.) He has a very nice instrument and setup 3.) He does a lit of unique studio work (he owns a very nice studio and does quite an extensive amout of backgrounds for his music, esp. keayboard) 4.) Did I mention he has good tone? 5.) He really is good, even if he is a sell-out, 6.) It is interesting to listen to music that makes a lot of money, 7.) You can tell he is a VERY good player, because (just sometimes, in a few of his songs) SOME of his hot licks are VERY cool and very smooth. 8.) He makes it seem easy. 9.) did I mention his TONE?

Anyway... I have one interesting question for y'all:

What is Kenny G's BEST song?
I say Greensleeves.

-Z

[Wailin']

Old habits never die...we move to a new site and we're still making the KG topic a "best seller" most replied to topic.

Despite the negative rhetoric that Kenny receives, fact of the matter is that he's good at what he does. Since the boundaries of what's honestly called jazz have become clearly undefined, we can only conclude that KennyG is not playing mainstream, contemporary or straight ahead jazz. He is however improvising. One only need listen to recordings of "Body and Soul" or "In a sentimental mood" to obviously hear the elements of jazz present...i.e. stated theme then improvisations thereafter. What's missing from his music is the syncopation and driving, swinging rythyms of straight ahead jazz.

However, I wouldn't "down" the man because he's not doing it like everyone else. Charlie Parker carved out his own niche by introducing the virtuoso element into just about everything he played even though he learned Lester Young's solos note for note to form his style.

Popularity and wealth are not standards by which to judge a man's talent. If he's good he's just good. Call his music what you want, elevator music or la la land music, it's pretty.

Many musicians unlike KennyG like to make stuff complex. Kenny has a knack for keeping it simple. One only need listen "Auld Lang Syne" to hear the simplicity in his playing.

My sax repairman gat upset at the mere mention of the name KennyG. It all boils down to personal taste. Hey, a pretty sunset to me may be ugly browns on canvas to someone else. The aureal beauty is in the ears of the listener.

[sessionsax]

I think all the negativity boils down to a heavy dose of coveting. I think its human nature (albeit bad) that gets envious of another musicians accomplishments.

Also, there is a lot more to being an entertainer that knowing how to play an instrument.

He aims for a particular audiences, connects with them and does extremely well financially doing it.

Don't down another player -- appreciate him for what he has accomplished.

If his style is not your thing, then appreciate him for what he can do and be proud that another saxophonist has been recognized.

[Silscio]

Good point, but there are times when it is right to get angry at another "jazz" :?: musician, such as when it directly affects you. Whenever I talk to anyone(anyone who doesn't really know jazz), all they can think about is Kenny G, and equate all jazz to his studio-perfect tone and notes over a cheesy drum machine and synthesizer. I do respect Kenny G in the fact that it must have taken enormous talent to get to where he is, enormous talent to realize he can capitalize, manipulate, and sell out much more than play something true.

[sessionsax]

Silscio

I am not even justifying the use of enormous talent as a keyword for Kenny G's playing. Personally I don't think he is extraordinarily talented.

I just truly don't understand why someone would want to dis someone for being different in their style than another player. Its immature.

So what if someone asks you to play a Kenny G tune or recognizes your instrument as being one that Kenny G plays.

As someone who makes a portion of his income from playing Saxophone, I just don't see a big deal in playing tunes that connect with a popular audience.

For me it means more opportunity and more money.

I love jazz, I just don't understand why some people get so ruffled by another artists commercial success.

[saxusa]

I think Kenny G. plays the best elevator music I ever heard. I can stand his playing for a few floors, but it sure is a relief when those doors open. Do I envy his sound? Not! I've worked years to develope my own sound which is far removed from his. Does he make more money with the sax than me? You betcha he does. But I do what I do because I love it. I'm not in it for the bread. Some people here measure a musicians success by how much money they make, and throw it into everyone's face as the true measure of success. The're some hookers in L.A. that make more money than doctors. It must be the love. :roll:

[hornstar]

For my ears, KG writes pap, plays pap, talks pap, is pap, and I have no interest in him or his output whatsoever, but he's not my Satan. My musical tastes just happen to be more diverse, yet I'm certain there are other subjects where my lack of sophistication leads me to appreciate only the banal and superficial.

I'll bet KG enjoys riling so many "real" musicians; every knock is a boost, and every musician makes concessions and compromises in order to be able to play out. My musical heros tend to have been iconoclasts, yet I also know from recorded evidence that most, if not all, pandered to the masses at least once in their careers in attempt to go mainstream and make some real money. Fortunately for us, most failed miserably, often starving but doing what they were compelled to do, which was breaking the rules, upsetting the established musical order, trying to create something new, and ultimately pleasing only themselves and those of us in the thrilled minority. Their legacies are far richer than Kenny G will ever be.

[saxusa]

I for one am very pleased with myself. To me that means I'm a success. I love what I do and get payed for it too. Life is good. 8)

[soulsax]

Im honored to be #100, on the Kenny thread. "nothing is new under the sun" If you keep writing on this thread, well,,, you might have a bad dream one night,, and wake up with a "Songbird" tatoo! :evil:

[RS]

Do threads go past 100 on the new forum?

[RS]

Well, apparently so. That's great. A Kenny G thread that goes on forever. Wait! What's that sound (hear's theme from Twilight Zone)? Is that Rod Serling standing over there? "Submitted for your examination..." Aieeeee!

[MTN]

just wanted to say, miss you, RS
and anyone that thinks that Paul Desmond is smooth jazz hasn't listened to enough Paul Desmond
kneel at the feet of the master
Just because just have heard 'Take Five' pimped, don't jump to conclusions
when's the last time you heard "Blue Rondo" "Desafinado" and "Polkadots and Moonbeams" on Oasis?
When is the last time you heard Kenny G play Desmond?
KG plays mostly soprano and on a wild hair day, tenor
rare alto
Desmond is the master of the dry martini alto
nuff said

[Jazzophone]

LOL. For KG, every day is a wild hair day. :shock:

[Silscio]

Just remember that Kenny G himself said that he doesn't play jazz, just easy listening. That's why I have beans with him. Because everyone thinks easy listening is jazz. Not Getz or Desmond. And because I don't like the style of songs he chooses, nor the songs themselves. That's why I think he's a sellout. Christmas Album! He's Jewish! Hey, I guess money is wherever you find it. Capitalize, it's the key for $$$.

[frankbiff]

Selling out is when you stop doing something you love and/or believe in and presumably something you are acomplished at and start doing something else to make money, or obtain fame, influence etc. The making of money by itsself is not selling out nor is it a bad thing. Not playing the music others think you should be playing is not selling out either. Selling out is only relative to ones own aspirations and desires. I have no reason to believe that Mr. G is not doing something he enjoys nor do I believe he desires to do something else (he now has the means to do just about anything he wants including playing any music he likes). He is not a sellout, he just plays music some other people do not like. But many people do like it, 70 million albums prove that, but hey thats the hoi pol loi buying those albums and what do they know?

[blow]

If Sanborn, Grover Washington, and Kenny G had not come to be, then a lot of us would be playing small jazz bar gigs the rest of our lives.

There is nothing wrong with Pop saxophone. The masses connect with it and it elicits intrest in the instrument.

Why get all riled up about it, just take it for what it is.

It's all about the quality of the performance. There have been some great rock sax performances over the years. KG's just riding a wave that got thrown his way. Can't fault a guy for that. The record labels have much more to do with market perception than he does.

What gets to me is the perception that what Kenny G does is jazz to those who have never heard any jazz. And the fact that he doesn't seem to be a genuine musician looking to explore, or take any risks. I'd rather listen to a great rock guitar player than buy a Kenny G record, at least maybe I'll hear something I haven't heard before.

[Anonymous]

"I'd rather listen to a great rock guitar player than buy a Kenny G record, at least maybe I'll hear something I haven't heard before."

Isn't "great rock guitar player" a bit of an oxymoron? Listen long enough and you won't hear again! I refuse to participate in a pain-fest for the glorification of a budding mental patient who contributes nothing but LOUD in tight pants!

[BobH]

We've all got to make a living. If we get the chance to make it doing something reasonably close to what we enjoy, that's a blessing. Given the choices of making decent money playing mediocre music, or making less money doing some job I absolutely loathed, I'd probably opt for choice A. A starving artist is not morally superior to a well-fed one, nor necessarily a better player. I can't fault Kenny G. for sticking with something that's brought him commercial success. It may be pabulum, but it beats washing dishes. So it ain't jazz--so what? If you don't like his stuff, do what I do: Don't buy the man's records.

[Wailin']

Currently, I'm transcribing Kenny G's version of "Body and Soul"...ok...now that the negative yells, screams, boos and stones have stopped an honest observation is that Kenny plays a lot chromatic notes, arrpegiated chords etc in addition to the head of the tune which is characteristic of jazz. The only missing element is the syncopation and rhythymic drive of jazz. Does anyone if Kenny actually writes these notes himself or does an arranger write for him and he merely performs them to bring out the best of the tune? Having said that, there's a lot to learn from him despite the negative rhetoric he's receiving.

[soulsax]

For any intrested, the Big Ken is going to be the guest host on Dave Koz this weekend... Wailin, my guess is the boy works up his arrangement, then puts together some improv ideas and then nail's it. Leaving the transpose job to someone else. I bet even the big Ken wouldn't want to read his own stuff. It's all impules, from years of playing. He can play a lot of notes very quickly. I heard Midnight Motion earlier, and old G tune that still impresses me. On tenor too...

[Wailin']

Read this article...http://www.apocalypse.org/~matthew/other/patm_keng/
and critque. If this is not the worse diss of Kenny ever then what is!!!

[roswell1965]

Kenny G is a Muppet. He's not even human, for chrissakes. Trust your eyes and your ears on this one. Pat Metheny has it right. :twisted:

[soulsax]

Yea, but he can still play a sax (better than average I'd say) :lol:

[soulsax]

I talked to the "Big Ken" tonight on the phone. He said he's pissed about some of the stuff being said here on this thread. I tryed to calm him down but he got madder. I gave him Harri's home phone number and he played me songbird. (twice) :D

[Straightsax]

What blows most people away is that Kenny G has sold more records than any saxophonist to date. Then you listen to Mr. G and think to yourself, "Huh?" Call it what you will, promotion, something the masses can understand or a whole lot of work in the mastering room. It's a combination these factors and many more and it is too easy to get bogged down with one area.

Trying to be objective as I can:

1. He's got a unique tone. If you had his equipment so would you. He's been playing for quite a while and has a highly developed embouchure. Like it or not. He plays with feeling, helped out by the bells and whistles in the recording studio. It isn't the horn alone.
2. Yes, majority of his tunes are simple. So, that everyone playing the saxophone under a year without lesson can picture themselves as Kenny G and dream. At my age, forget it. I know some of you are shaking your heads, but go back to when you were 13. It also helps the masses digest it. Either way it sells records. It may be simple, but it sells like no other. It's not a matter of right and wrong. It not a matter of what you like. You are free to buy what you want. For Kenny, it's what you put in the bank. It isn't personal, just business.
3. He gets a lot of audio help that you will not find at home.
4. "Songbird is a great song." But after 10 listens, it can become monotonous and can give one a fear of elevators.
5. I don't think we can judge anyone one on or two songs. God forbid record sales dictate what songs those are.
6. For my money, "Summertime" is the best thing he has done. I can only judged what is played on the radio because I have never bought one of his albums. I have one of his albums from a friend who had it a couple of months and got tired of it.
7. He listens to the studio executive's because his want to make money.
8. He has paid his dues and did a lot of back up work before he ever cut his first album. He didn't get out of the high school band room or the church choir and then go on to cut his first solo album.
9. Yep, something tells me that he has more chops than what he records. If anyone on this forum were to sit down with him horn to horn, we would find that out. However, he isn't going to put that on a record, because it wouldn't sell.
10. He doesn't take chances like Dave Koz in putting out a lullaby album. I could say more about Kenny G and lullaby album, but I'm not going there. He studies the market. He does his homework and figures out what people will plunk down their hard earned cash for and what the music stations will play. Maybe the record producers help him out in this area, who know? It's crafterd for all of the music stations, not just smooth jazz. We can include elevators in that category. Again, nothing personal, just business.
11. The biggest negative in my mind is that he is too calculating. "Midnight Motion" is "Mr. Magic" reworked with a different beat. If Grover was alive today he would blow him off the stage. But Kenny G is industrious. Grover had a sound to "die for." So, if you are going to steal, steal from the best.
12. What he does is not original. He can take four bars out of any song and make a hit record.
13. He is kind of the Miles Davis of the saxophone field. He is more into tone than chops. There is going to be a reaction here. No, Kenny G does not write like Miles Davis nor does he have the creativity. I'm only referring to the "tone" situation. Remember, the above didn't say that Kenny G had great tone, just a unique tone. Unique enough to be the Numba 1 seller, which is by design.
14. He is not going to go out on a limb and do a Lullaby album like Dave Koz. It would be too risky for Kenny.
15. I've seen him on T.V. and he knows who he is. He is gracious, but could tone down on the "I." It's never we. He is not an ego manic, but all that money in the bank and all those record executives patronizing him has taken it's toll. It's not a big chip on his shoulder, but he knows that no one has sold more records. And he is not worried about that changing anytime soon.

So, in conclusion no matter what we say, Kenny G is happy. With everything going on in this world, I'm not going to get worked up over someone who is happy in life. Life is too short. Between worrying about Kenny G and worrying about the next time your playing in front of people in order to inspire, elevate, relax and soothe them, the latter is much more important.

Kenny is doing his thing, jus keep doing yours. Don't worry, be happy.

Now back to da shed,

Straightsax.

[Wailin']

Straightsax...honestly, I tend to lean heavily towards your stance on this. Even if G's not playing straightahead jazz or conventional smooth jazz he's definitely playing well and has carved out a pioneer's niche in music unheralded in the arts. One look at the charts and we'll see that he's topped the awards category for instrumental jazz etc. The masses of musicians and music critques may not like it but the man does his home work. I guess hearing Kenny live would really speak for the musicain. An album is strictly for financial reasons.

Straightsax, you claim "summertime" is the best recording you've heard. Have you checked out his recording of "body and soul" or "in a sentimental mood"? Personaly, I feel "Auld lan Sin"(sp?) is his simplest recording ever...sounds like child's play.

Yes...his tone is unmatched...very pretty...and I also like the fact that he stick's so closely to the lyrics of the tune although on the previously mentioned cuts he does improvization after the first chorus.

So lets just keep doing what we're doing and give the G man his props.

[sessionsax]

Straightsax,

I concur!

[Straightsax]

Wail'n

The New Year's Eve piece (Auld ang syne). Marketing above music. Do a recording and they tell you mucho voices are going to talk over it. How would you feel? But then we have a big name, a lot of sentimental voice-overs, the record company executives and the R&D department are working overtime. Not to mention the engineer. Then, here we are. Boom, another hit recording.

The poor engineer, although spending many hours splicing dicing and timing the recorded voices never got on a T.V. talk show to tell us what he went through. Yet it's 50% of what you hear. Would it have sold as big without the voices? Who knows, but it's a product for the masses and we have to leave it at that.

As far as "Body and Soul" and "In the Mood;" Nope, haven't heard it yet. It hasn't been on the radio and in all due respect Kenny G, doesn't need my help to boost the sales of his recordings at this point. If it comes on the radio, you'll be the first..

Sessions: Thank you, your Honor.

A few of you are screaming "sellout." This is the United States of America and as George Carlin would say the middle initials in the word INDUSTRY are U.S. If we start telling Kenny G he can't make money, where does that put us. For all you cats that think he is selling out, consider the bright side. Kenny G is nowhere near your market niche.

NO ONE makes you blow a bad note except yourself. It's really a non-competitive sport. Take Kenny G in perspective and life will be a lot easier. So, far I've been lucky insofar as no one has compared me to Kenny G. Some of you may not have escaped this problem thinking that the masses set the standard. If you are strictly into $$$, one might have a different view. But then, again this is America.

I guess in all honesty, if every time I played I heard the guy's name I'd become a little paranoid. So, I'm lucky. Besides, I'm an old guy and don't look anything like Kenny G. Take all the help we can get at our age. Now if you are younger and sporting a curly perm, hey you asked for it.

Give them a good heartfelt sound. That good looking dazzling horn sitting in the open case or in your hot little (or big) hands is not what it is all about. Just get the best sound out of your horn. Kenny G is not playing your horn and we are not playing his. One thing that should be mentioned, is that Kenny G produces. You can hear that he is giving it at least a 100%. And the recording executives (corporate gods) remain pleased

All I'm trying to respectfully generally suggest is that your priority should be in your playing, not somebody else's. If some one came up to me after playing a set and wanted to start talking about Kenny G, I'd just figure that this must also be a Gucci person. Hey, they're out there, they have the money and that's where it is at. Kenny G is a name brand these days, just like Gucci. Most of us are not name brands. And the Gucci types do not pay my bills or a regular basis. Just go with the flow.

Enjoy it for what is it worth, but don't let it control or shape your playing. If you want to copy Kenny G fine. Get it down where is sounds like one horn in the room. Then move onto somebody else and expand your horizons.

Speaking of which,

back to da shed.

I've got a Thursday night thing going on that I need to rehearse for, so I'm outta here. It's a University graduation with about 2,500 in attendance. If Kenny's name comes up, you'll be the first to know. No request for Songbird, so far. Must be the gray hair and white beard, ya think?

Play from the heart, it might pay less in the beginning, but the rewards are out of this world.

Straightsax.

[Tom Goodrick]

I must come in here as something of a Kenny G fan. I agree with most of the positive things said above, especially as set down by Straightsax and disagree with most of the negative things. I have been away from 'musicians' for many years. I had forgotton how opinionated musicians can get over things most people would yawn at.

Unlike some of you who are commenting without ever owning one of his CD's, I have two and intend to get more. I think he has introduced a new music genre that is not really 'pop' or 'pop rock' and certainly is not 'straightahead jazz' (whatever that is - Coltrane, Rollins, Adderly, etc). But it borrows from all and creates something new in the process.

I like his music. I do not see how people can say he does not improvise. I hear improvization in his own style in every piece I have heard. I am quite familiar with synthesizers and modern recording techniques. He obviously knows how to utilize them to the fullest extent. To showcase his talent I would point to his recording of 'Esther' in 1986 (Kenny G Duo Tones, Arista). He plays every note on every instrument on that recording. I hear a violin (could be synth but I think its real) as well as his sop and the synth accompaniment. He also wrote the music. That is talent. It is also a piece that is hard to fit into a genre niche.

I would also point to his recordings of 'Desafinado', in which he plays tenor, and 'In a Sentimental Mood' on CLASSICS INTHE KEY OF G (Arista, 1999). Those tunes show his jazz improvization skills in my opinion.

I recently spent time listening to Zoot Sims, Coltrane, Adderly and Rollins. Their music is quite different from Kenny G's. It is much less pollished. They had to do repeated takes with the whole band instead of getting the best of each track. It would be interesting if they could have performed with modern recording techniques. But I will admit there is a jazz feel in their work that is missing from some of Kenny G's work. Sometimes it seems like he is just pumping it out with semi-automatic and almost spastic licks. I write that off to playing so much music over the course of recording an album. He also is forced to re-play many of his more popular songs in concerts, doing them much the same way each time to satisfy the audience. That's show biz.

Kenny G is a good player and has made a significant contribution to contemporary music. I would not call him a great artist but he is an artist in his own way. I don't know anyone else who can do his stuff. About the older crowd - Sims, Coltrane, Adderly and Rollins (closer to being my contemporaries), I have mixed feelings. They are artists also in their own sense. But much of their work is very rough, partly because of recording techniques and partly because they seem at least partly incapacitated while performing. (Been there; done that.)

My exact contemporary was Grover Washington, Jr. I am playing sax now mainly because I really like his stuff. It sure is a shame he had to go out early.

[blow]

>>Isn't "great rock guitar player" a bit of an oxymoron? <<

Eric Clapton, John McLaughlin, Prince, Stevie Ray Vaugn, and Santana are all great gutar players who have displayed a ligh level of creativity and technique.

>> I refuse to participate in a pain-fest for the glorification of a budding mental patient who contributes nothing but LOUD in tight pants!<<

Now you go and change the subject back to Kenny G. Or were you referring to yourself?
8)

[soulsax]

Straight facts from Straightsax! 8) This is the man of the hour folk's. Period...Let's put it this way. This being and educational forum for all types of sax players (and monday morning want-a-be's) :evil: all you Kenny whiner's should read and weep, :cry: then print it, and read till you snap! ..."Uhh", "wow", "applying that chemistry really works"??? :shock: ...Yea! Kenny's the biggest fish in the pond. And that is a fact...But it's a big pond man, there's a lot of other big fish. Room for young smaller growing fish too. And it's happening. Sax changes with time, and now day's there are far more brilliant players than ever before. We got ton's of info to choose from, cd's, play-alongs,very friendly key board's ect. Sax is a happining ax. If you do want to be and entertainer who is serious, :twisted: don't dis the Big Ken. Come on 70 million in sales. The point here has nothing to do with taste, only Kenny G... Said it before, Big Ken"s popularity has only helped the saxophone. Use it to your advantage. Yesterdays sax players are history now. :cry: Listen and learn because todays player's are playing jazz of the future. Enough said, now go reread the Straightsax numbered posting, stop whining, :( and practice... :wink:

[soulsax]

Here's a thought on jazz... Discise Kenny and put him on a street corner in Seatle by himself. His choice.(He'll brush up some on that alto and tenor if he didn't didn't pawn um)
Get him to blow any thing he wants. But no song's, only solo's, diferent key's, feel's. Have him play for a while. On and off for a week for tips. Ask all the passerbys weather that sax player was play jazz. 95% would say yes... :roll:

[SopranoSue]

Ok. Seriously, this is why I have a problem in relating the sop sax to Kenny G...

My grandfather played sop sax and my grandmother played violin (although, she always called it a fiddle, even as 2nd chair in orchestra...). They played in the 30's and 40's at relatives' functions, parties, graduations, weddings, etc. Papa played an AWESOME sop sax such that anyone who was there would compliment him.

Was he mainsteam jazz? No. Was he ragtime? No. Was he blues? No. Was he Glenn Miller? No. Was he awesome? YES! He was one of those unknown AWESOME players who played sop sax because IT WAS HIS VOICE.

He was flexible -- harmony, melody, pentatonics, harmonics -- totally awesome. He played from the heart. No professional music instruction. Loved the big band best though... it was his time (born 1901).

When I take out my sax and people ask me if it's a "big clarinet" or "straight sax like Kenny G," I cringe.

NOT because Kenny G is BAD -- it's just that between the hype, the glamour, the holiday songs, the elevator music, and the ATTITUDE that he has... He just doesn't sit well with me.

Sorry Kenny... If you're reading this, I don't mean to offend. You are well known in your industry, and there isn't a sax player who hasn't heard of you, whether well received or not...

The general public just doesn't KNOW about music. They don't CARE. Hell, half of them can't make change for 53 cents on a $1 bill and come up with the right answer, even if they DO use a calculator! And... we're supposed to argue about music theory to these people???

There are people who love G's music, and there are people who don't. As with any other player, there are plusses and minuses.

Just play the best you can, and if anyone asks you... it's Soprano Sax. Period.

[Anonymous]

My appologies for continuing this aspect of the thread. However, I didn't veer in this direction originally, Like Columbo, I just wanted to clear up a loose end!

"Eric Clapton, John McLaughlin, Prince, Stevie Ray Vaugn, and Santana are all great gutar players who have displayed a ligh level of creativity and technique. "

Maybe! But no one is going to win MY vote if they think they can FORCE me to listen! (Is "gutar" a Freudian slip? ) If these guys are "Great", Kenny G is Jazz! That's the kind of liberal guy I am!

The electric guitar is to musical instruments what the electric chair is to furniture!

[Anonymous]

Hmmm!

[Anonymous]

Hmmm!

Slight technical difficulty! Carry On, Troopers!

[tommyc]

Kenny G is Kenny G

Music is music

There is no good or bad, there just is.

[FunkySax]

My drummer has a recording of kenny on tenor from a long time ago. I'll ask him who he was playing with so you can check it out. I'm telling you guys, Kenny G can blow differently from his albums.

[Razzy]

FunkySax, that's definitely true. People used to tell him he sounded like Coltrane, from what I've heard... never got one of those recordings though. Basically he had (and probably still has, somewhere, deep down) the ability to play swing, blues, and bebop, and *gasp* perhaps even cool jazz! However he stifled it in order to be more marketable and to make more money.

I have nothing against the man himself. I think it's an amazing accomplishment that someone could make so much money with music, it's really incredible! There's nothing to do with envy at all, I respect him for how far he's gotten. However I simply can't STAND to listen to his music; two songs and I am heading for the toilet to vomit. Something annoying about it that just tickles my insides, I've really never liked smooth jazz for this reason. People who have WJJZ smooth jazz station on in their car, I have to kindly request that they change it. If they refuse, I have to earnestly request a change. And if they refuse again, I must kindly opt to remove myself from their vehicle out of fear that I might inflict physical harm on the person!

So you see, it's not just Kenny, but the whole genre itself that gets on my nerves. And Kenny's music happens to be the epitome of that genre. However, I have developed SOME stifling behaviors of my own ( :roll: ), such as, well, I used to get really angry and argumentative and caustic when people who heard me play would tell me that I'd be the next Kenny G, out of their ignorance. Then, after asking a few of these people if they listen to Kenny G, the typical response is "no". So now I just smile whenever I get that compliment, because THEY really DO see it as a compliment, sadly, but the intent is all that matters!

And for anyone interested, I've never touched smooth jazz and never intend to. I know there are more of us out there that have a similar reaction to smooth jazz as we have to a deadly, viral infection. :wink:

[Wailin']

KennyG--the epitome of smooth jazz???oh come on...i beg to differ on that opinionated statement...that would be the case weren't it not for artists such as Boney James, Dave Coz, Everette Harp, Richard Elliot and Warren Hill to name a few.

[Razzy]

Ok, how about the hallmark, or some other more appropriate word :P Basically what I'm trying to convey is that when most people, musicians and otherwise, think of smooth jazz saxophone, who is the man who almost immediately comes to mind? case closed.

[Silscio]

Kenny himself didn't play smooth jazz, no, he couldn't even call it any form of jazz itself, he had to call it "easy listening" :oops:

:A-Run: Easy listening

[altoman]

There isn't much point in arguing music genre,but rather technical and musical ability of the player. I am still waiting to hear something from KG that will impress me. There are (and where) many masters of the saxophone regardless of the music they are playing. I remember listening George Zamphyr (pan flute) playing sax 1986 in Europe. Man, he played his native Romanian folk music in such fashion, i could not believe that what he played was possible on the sax. Just to keep your mind open , do a search on KAZAA for a Ziva Dinulovic. You might get lucky and download some of his recordings. Keep your mind open about his music genre and try to hear technical difficulty of his playing. Do you know of anyone that can play this fast?

[Big Nick]

Good grief! Is that what music's about? Being able to play fast?
I always thought it was about entertainment. I guess I'm just old fashioned.
If music was always a competition then I wouldn't want anything to do with it.
If a player can entertain at least one person then he's doing alright.
Mr G entertains millions .

[Pete]

Ah. The G-man.

You’ve got a couple things to look at, here:

* Is Kenny G a good player? I’d call that mainly a question of taste –- but you have to remember that he himself says that he has intonation and rhythm problems. To me, "problems with fundamentals" does not equal "good player". However, being a good player rarely is a requirement for selling records.

* The "Kenny G Tone", in my opinion, is very similar to the tone of soprano players in classical quartets -- similar to, but a little scaled down (i.e. "wimpier"). I think his soprano tone does lend itself well to some pieces ("Songbird", for instance), but doesn't for others. I don't like his tenor tone at all. Again, this is all "the ear of the beholder": I don't like John Coltrane's soprano tone: he's got unparalled technical ability and a great tenor sound, but I think his soprano tone is sub-par at best (listen to "My Favorite Things").

* Kenny G's creativity tends to be lacking, IMO. I lost all respect for his musical creativity when I heard him overdub -- and butcher -- Louis Armstrong's "Wonderful World". I also tend to think that all "smooth jazz" sounds about the same, possibly particularly Kenny G's music.

* If you put Kenny G up against your choice of any of the "big name" saxophonists of the past 150+ years, could he compete? That's a difficult task for any player. How 'bout comparing Kenny G to David Sanborn, then? I've heard David Sanborn play jazz standards and I can guarantee that he'd be able to play rings around Kenny G (listen to any "Late Night/Late Show with David Letterman" repeat and tell me if I'm wrong). However, when they play their own stuff, I don't particularly care for either -- and, as said, I think both would have problems stacking up to Paul Desmond, etc.

* I do definitely like the fact that Kenny G, by his mere presence on the saxophone scene, reinvigorated soprano and other saxophone sales and interest in all things saxophones. However, I'd rather have someone come up to me and say, "You sound just like Gerry Mulligan!" rather than "You sound just like Kenny G!" (The corollary to this is that most of the non-sax-playing public can't tell the difference between Kenny G and your tone on a completely different pitched instrument, so don't worry about it too much :) )

[Troy]

11. The biggest negative in my mind is that he is too calculating. "Midnight Motion" is "Mr. Magic" reworked with a different beat. If Grover was alive today he would blow him off the stage. But Kenny G is industrious. Grover had a sound to "die for." So, if you are going to steal, steal from the best.Straightsax.

I say 'amen' too. Funny you should mention Grover compared to Kenny. My only complaint about KG is that he overuses "fireworks" (the technical tricks and licks). Grover knew when to use less...and exactly where to place those notes.

[Anonymous]

Need I remind anyone---?

The very essence of Polka music is the ability to play fast! There are thousands of "ethnic" people playing millions of notes every second! I would hazzard a guess that this is not the goal here!

But, perhaps I have mis-read the room! Wouldn't be the first time!

[Cameron Wigmore]

Wow. Everyone has such an extensive essay on the good or bad of "Mr. G". Not worth my time.

:( :? :) :o :D :P :lol: :shock: :oops: :twisted: :evil:

[soulsax]

why the post :? ... Kenny's the man to beat :twisted: It will happen too 8)

[kevvieg]

I think the litmus test is in the sincerity of the artist. Like Metheney, I had no quarrel with Gorelick, though I dislike his playing intensely. However, once he recorded his "jazz" album and mutilated a number of great standards as well as desecrating Loius Armstrong (on one of Louis' inferiour songs, no less), he invoked my ire.

I know not everyone on here is a pro player, or has visions of artistry. For many of you, if the music is entertaining, that is good enough. That's fine if that's where your head is. For those of us who look at music as our voice, it is such a drag to have the mediocrity of Gorelick setting the standard for what people want to hear. Is it well-produced? Certainly. Is there any artistic merit to what he does? Hardly.

Yet, I also have to take issue with Berg Larceny. You are entitled to your opinion, and I have little use for many rock guitarists, but it is folly to deny the talent of people like Eric Clapton, Randy Bachman, and others. There are actually musical and tasteful rock guitarists, so don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Cameron Wigmore]

As far as I'm concerned, Y'all can go ahead and "be like Kenny". Make me look better.

[Anonymous]

While I believe these people to be "not untalented", I feel that their detrimental effect on music as I knew and loved it (before the introduction of megawatt amps) is as unpardonable as any Nazi war crime! They deliberately MURDERED my best friend, music!

It's just a matter of perspective, I suppose! Thank god I'm not bitter!

And I think you mean ..."with the bongwater," don't you?

[Big Nick]

Kevvieg: Please try to be a bit less patronising. Entertainment can be art. Art doesn't have to be of minority interest (like jazz, for instance). And artists don't have to be tortured souls yearning to express themselves through their chosen medium. They can be happy and play happy music that other people like to listen to.
Berg Larceny: I sympathise but don't agree. I reserve my indignation for DJs. :evil:

[Cameron Wigmore]

This seems to be a thread about who or what we think is 'un-musical'. If that's the subject, leave kenny g out of it. He is musical - it's just not my bag.

[kevvieg]

It was not my intent to be patronising. My point is that, while art can be entertaining, music that serves solely to entertain rarely has any artistic merit. There is nothing wrong with being an entertainer, nor is it necessary to be a "tortured" artist. But it is SAD that, in a musical history and spectrum as vast as we have in this world, people only want to hear the same 20 songs for the rest of their lives. I know I'm being pompous, but I am glad that I can afford to say no to gigs that call for the millionth rendition of "Brown-eyed Girl", "Mustang Sally", and "In the Mood" - and Gawd forbid you should play a solo or a hook that is different from what was on the record.

This applies perfectly to Gorelick: His music is made for no other reason than to entertain. He's the Danielle Steele of the saxophone. (and just because Ms. Steele is popular doesn't mean she writes literature).

[Jazzophone]

My point is that, while art can be entertaining, music that serves solely to entertain rarely has any artistic merit. There is nothing wrong with being an entertainer, nor is it necessary to be a "tortured" artist. But it is SAD that, in a musical history and spectrum as vast as we have in this world, people only want to hear the same 20 songs for the rest of their lives.

What if people only listen to the same 20 songs for the rest of their lives because that's all they've been exposed to? Not everyone is musically pioneering. Not everyone is going to go out to the music store and pick up a random disc from a random genre that they normally never listen to, pay for it and take it home. If people hear Kenny G more than they hear Bird or Webster or Cannonball, well, of course they're going to like him way better, because they are more familiar with him. Even afterwards, if they get exposed to more traditional "straight jazz," they might not lean towards it much because it differs greatly from the familiarity of their "easy listening" defined style. You with me?

This applies perfectly to Gorelick: His music is made for no other reason than to entertain.

Pardon, but isn't that the purpose of music? Yes, self-expression for the player, but the player is also part of the group of listeners, and don't the listeners want to be entertained? Would you listen to music that bores you, or that doesn't stimulate you somehow? Probably not. Then why knock others for listening to something that they enjoy, whether or not you share their opinion?

[soulsax]

Oh well,,, This thread has some subthreads. Kenny G plays the sax. Two, he ain't a beginner. Three, he's from Seattle. Now,,, what make's him so different?... Smarts. Being in the right place's right time. Being focused on his sound/ style. If it happened to him, it could happen again. Maybe some one on this thread. What would YOU be playing if you got his job tomorrow? Coltrane licks? :shock: Yea,,,saxophone would get set back 20+yrs.... You go out on a date, or have a party, and since the crowd is hip, but mixed, you play what is half way current...that is a fact of life :? "Jazz" ain't a music to some, it's a religion. Since this ain't a church 8) I ain't too worried... P.S. I ain't dis'n the Train, he's a saint. Thats not the point. Some cats sleep on the porch at night, other cats go out. Ill be 50 Sunday, no kitten for sure, but I still go tom cat'in and listen...

[kevvieg]

I think soulsax gets what I mean. All I am saying is that there is more to music (and life) than being entertained. Of course I am entertained when I listen to jazz or art music, but it goes beyond that. I know I'm being pompous, but I still maintain that it's a tragedy that Western society has become one that panders to the lowest common denominator, whether that be opening a new MacDonald's, helping John Grisham sell another book (that was identical to his previous ten), or considering Gorelick to be anything more than the Michael Bolton of the saxophone.

In a perfect world, people would be open to all kinds of new stimuli, but I am not so naive as to think this is a perfect world. On the other hand, there are so many commercially oriented players that have at least SOME degree of hipness. Many have a lot of accessibility without checking their musical intellect at the door. Sanborn and Grover washington come to mind, even Jay Beckenstein, but the Gorelicks and the Dave Koz's of the world have only succeeded in dumbing down people's expectations of what to listen for when they hear a sax player. I'm not asking everyone to dig complex improvisation, but do we have to sanitize the soul in order to reduce the harmonic sophistocation?? I would rather hear Stanley Turrentine or David Newman play the collected works of Mother Goose than the wonderbread blandness of gorelick and his ilk.

There is a middle ground between pandering to the uneducated masses and being so esoteric that only you enjoy your playing. As far as I'm concerned, the only people I wish to entertain are my peers with whom I'm playing. The audience is just there to eavesdrop on the great conversation the musicians are sharing. If that means playing for free, I can live with that because I truly believe that art should not be watered down in the interest of commerce. Do what i did; find a day job you enjoy and play because you love it rather than just to kowtow to the demands of a fickle public.

[frankbiff]

And that's why Jazz is no longer popular music.
(unless you think Mr. G is Jazz)

[frankbiff]

Sorry I screwed up the quote, but it should be clear.

[soulsax]

..."And that's why jazz is no longer popular music"... :? Tell us when, and how that happened? ? A year, story, anything to back that up. Thanks :D

[soulsax]

Except for the swing jazz of the 30s 40s 50s what type of jazz was ever popular? People danced to that jazz in large number. Especially WWII and after. The big bands dryed up :( and it disappeared. Sucks too. Bebop,Free, or what ever jazz,>>> None of its ever been too popular since.> What 3% of the market? ?...The reason jazz ain't popular anymore is cause of Kenny G? :dazed:

[Silscio]

The sad thing is is that a large majority of music nowdays has a lot of jazz influence. It's not recognized or appreciated for it either, but if I condemn people for taking things for granted, that makes me a hypocrite, so guess I shouldn't open my mouth.

[frankbiff]

In addition to the big bands, Dixeland was also popular. The point I am trying to make: As swing wound down and bebop was developed the players started to think of themselfves more as artists , in the serious art sense, and less as entertainers. They did not care what the audience thought. Jazz became inaccessable to most of the public. Mr G., Koss and the rest are simply filling an instrumental music void. The public may be tastless but it seems so are alot of the jazz folks, and rock folks and folk folks and classical and country etc. There is a lot of garbage out there and it's not limited to Mr G and smooth stuff. To think that Jazz is a superior style of music and the public is tastless because they don't like it is to be as snobish as they come, rivaling some of the classical/opera folks.

My mother, class of '29, used to like jazz, but along came folks like Bird Coltrain, etc. and well, she stoped liking it. And so did millions of others in her generation. To them Jazz was fun, exciting, listenable, musical. And then along came Rock and Roll and it was fun, exciting etc.... Now a vast majority of people do not care one bit about Jazz or the people who play it. It has ceased to be relavent to all but a small minority of listeners. People want musical music. So, Mr. G steped up to the plate and hit a home run. I'm sure others could have done alot better at filling the void but, everyone else was asleep at the switch, too much into their art to be paying attention.

[kevvieg]

I was going to say exactly what Soulsax said: Jazz has never been popular. Frankbiff, you say that the big bands were popular, but they weren't playing jazz. Glenn Miller was popular, as was Benny Goodman but both were more dance bands than jazz bands. Duke Ellington may have had some hits, but his artistry was never as popular as those of the pop bands. Bebop did not spell the end of accessible jazz. Artie Shaw gave up performing when his "adoring public" refused to allow him to grow as an artist, always expecting that which is familiar. Besides, it is myopic to look at market share as the indicator of success.

Stan Getz certainly had popularity with the bossa-nova craze, but he didn't actually do it for long. As an artist, he saw the need to move beyond the same-old, same-old. Yet, he remained popular throughout his career without having to pander to commercial concerns. The whole reason he didn't have a label affiliation for years is that he didn't want to play music that was market-driven. Nonetheless, he still recorded for smaller labels and maintained his popularity without compromising his integrity, hiring such adventurous composers as Gary Burton and Jim McNeely.

I am not saying that jazz is the one superior music. I have huge admiration for great rock bands, great orchestras, and great musicianship in general. However, I have a lot more respect for someone like Lyle Lovett than for cookie cutters like Shania Twain. Likewise, in jazz, I have respect for such artists as Joe Lovano or Tom Harrell. They may have made less money than Chris Botti or Gerald Albright, but at least I know I am going to hear something fresh everytime I hear them. I know that there are people who fo to McDonald's or East Side Mario's everytime they travel, thereby avoiding the risk of trying anything unfamiliar. I pity those people. I would rather see five people in the audience digging the band, than 5000 people dictating what the musicians have to do.

When a baby smiles at you, it is usually because he is pleased with himself for recognizing you, rather than because he is happy to see you (mom and dad excepted.) Likewise I notice that uneducated audiences like to clap after a tune intro because they begin to recognize what they are hearing. I think they are more pleased with themselves for finally recognizing something than for just enjoying the wonderful experience of having a creation-in-progress shared with them. Pity.

[frankbiff]

A discussion of what is Jazz, who played it etc. belongs on anlother thread, one that I think already exsists below somewhere. Perhaps you take a narrow definition of Jazz. It is true many big bands were dance bands and did not play Jazz, but many also played some or all Jazz, Basse comes to mind. Shaw played Jazz, Elington played some. They were more popular then than Jazz is now. Goodman didn't play Jazz? He was one of the few white bands that did play Jazz!! Hmmm. I suppose Jimmy Dorcey didn't play it ether. Wonder what he was doing with his sax. He even influenced Lester Young (rapid changes between the same note using different fingerings) And you don't need to have top 10 hits to be popular, just a significant piece of the listening public. That piece was much bigger then than now. Lester Young was on the Juke box ( with Basse), is that popular enough? He used to play his own tunes in the bars. Who's on the Juke box now, Mr G.? If the big bands were not Jazz, What was Jazz during the '30s-'40s??

The early BeBop players where in big bands, Dizzey and Bird where in the same band for awhile (I forget who's). Suppose they weren't playing Jazz.

And Dixeyland was Jazz and it was more poplar in its day, and during it's revival than Jazz is today.

Moving beyond the same-old, same-old is good, things can get old, but just because something is new does not make it good. But it all come down to opinions; and thats mine.

[Anonymous]

And a splendid opinion it is! However, I think a brief look around will show that there are less jukeboxes today than there is less jazz!

And now for an even bleaker view:

The audience has changed and probably deserves exactly what it gets for not demanding anything better! Those of us who actively complain are branded reactionaries and are told that we stand in the way of "progress", a patently silly concept as it may apply to music. So we shut up and silently watch as our entire lives are made obsolete by some green-haired pimple factory who is only in it for the exchange of bodily fluids with a 13 year old girl who has already had more sex than all the saxophone players in the NATO musicians directory! (Please note that I have gone on record as a vocal supporter of both unrestricted sex and pimples! The green hair is unforgivable!) One can only hope and pray that the bottom falls out of the music business soon and completely so that we may have a clean slate!

Boy, I could have SWORN there was a point in there, somewhere!

[Pete]

Weellll, Berg Larceny, that's a couple of subjects you take on there.

- I don't consider what Kenny G and similar play "jazz". One of the many reasons for this is because performers of this style of music have decided to dub it "smooth jazz" or even "new age".

What's the definition of "jazz"? Well, to butcher a quote, if you don't know what it is, you ain't ever gonna know :). I can definitely say it ain't "Songbird", though. (This is also not to say that Kenny G doesn't have chops or couldn't play jazz.)

- I've occasionally heard snatches of the Dave Brubeck Quartet and Paul Desmond on both the "smooth jazz" station out here in Phoenix and in a local restaurant. It's disappointing that Brubeck is considered "smooth jazz", but at least I can imagine that folks listen to the "smooth jazz" station in hopes that they'll hear more Brubeck!

- This also gets into the question of "what should the sax sound like?" While today's saxophone does have most of the same sonic quality of the originals from 1843, we alter the sound extensively with tone boosters, mouthpieces, etc. If one considers the sax is a tool for musical expression, should anyone be allowed to say, "you must sound like this"? Can you, however, say, "Jazz music has these features, classical music has these, salsa has those"? I think no to the former and yes to the latter.

- Finally, the utes of today. My wife works for a high school: schoolkids are much worse than even when I was in school 15 years ago. However, I'd say that a good percentage of musicians -- as well as doctors, lawyers, etc. -- are in their business for the money or prestige or whatever and it's always been like that (although it may be more blatant in this day and age).

[Anonymous]

"a good percentage of musicians -- as well as doctors, lawyers, etc. -- are in their business for the money or prestige or whatever "

This comment brings up a very major beef on my part!

How is it that the musicians, doctors, artists who make the most, often indecent amounts of, money are cited as having made "Great Contributions" to their respective industry?! They have GIVEN NOTHING! They have sold it! Plain and simple!

I would not be bothered if they received the Nixon Award for Public Hosing, but...Come on! It's no coincidence that "Contribute" begins with "Con"!

The poor guy who has been sucked into believing any appreciable amount of his $10 to the United Way goes to the suffering has contributed more than ANY 5000 doctors, lawyers or MegaStar performers!

We need to contribute nearly a quarter of a million dollars to the president of the United Way before a nickel goes to the administrators and millions to them before the Doctors and possibly billions to them before a single patient gets a complimentary band aid!

Okay, I know when I'm licked!
Everything is perfect and music is currently as god himself intended it to be!
Why couldn't I have seen this earlier?

[MitchP]

Ken Gorerlick is another example of our society embracing the lowest common denominator.
He is up there with Brittany Spears, Friends, Survivor, Joe Millionaire, American Idol...

[Kosma]

Well this has turned to the subject that gets me more riled than anything I can think of (almost).

Ultimately I blame the record companies and the radio stations (or whoever decides what they play).

The public are sheep. They don't choose what they like-they like what they're given. They don't want choices, they want it narrowed down for them. (This is a documented fact) I don't blame people for that so much anymore because no matter what, I will never have a great interest in,say, embroidery.

The record companies are interested in one thing and one thing only.
They are the ones that choose-to give us garbage!
If every record exec on the planet dropped dead tomorrow it would be the happiest day of my life. I don't give a crap if they do put out some good music occasionally, they're all still vultures.

They are the ones to blame for dumbing down the public if anyone is.
Because they DON'T CARE about music. When they are looking at someone for a record deal the music is not even a consideration.

OK I gotta go cool down.

[kevvieg]

Ok. The last few posts get at precisely what I was trying to say. Using a food analogy, we know that you can't have haute cuisine all the time and not every restaurant will fit that standard, but does anyone have any respect for McDonald's other than for it's marketing savvy? Most of us just want good quality.

There are many ways to approach the saxophone, but Kenny Gorelick has NOTHING to do with jazz. If people like it, that's their problem. When I book a jazz band and people expect me to play his brand of dreck, it becomes my problem. You wouldn't order lasagna in a Chinese restaurant, so don't ask for sappy instrumental pop at a jazz concert. I am not trying to educate the people who listen to what I play, but I'm not going to change it just because they don't know what jazz is. I play in many styles, including R&B, but when I book a jazz gig that's what I'm going to play.

I recorded a great CD with a singer about 10 years ago. She sounds somewhere between Etta James and Bonnie Raitt - a terrific voice and a killer band. We got a deal with a label but it went nowhere. Not because it wasn't good, but because the suits didn't know what niche to put it in. Now that R&B has neither rhythm nor blues, it didn't fit there. It was too funky to be blues, and not slick enough to be pop. As long as we have 25 year-old MBA grads telling the public what they are supposed to like we will continue to suffer the likes of Gorelick, bad television, and Adam Sandler movies (Sandler being just slightly less amusing than rabies). Thank heavens for Noam Chomsky.

[MitchP]

kevvieg, you got it right.
There is this great band in Chicago, the e-mics. Same deal, great
original pop with intelligent yet catchy lyrics and music. Labels and clubs can't put it into a category so the leader,songwriter is frustrated. If he dumbed it down a notch then maybe, what a drag that is.

Oh, and if K Gorelick is actually following this thread I make no apologies to you. I opened up for Jeff Loerber in 1981 and K Gorelick was an absolute ahole. I was trying to talk some shop about saxes, music. He basically ignored me to attend to the few adoring fans lavishing him with praise. I've met Lovano, Chris Potter, Dick Oats, Michael Brecker, Bob Mintzer. I studied with Dave Liebman and played with Randy Brecker and the actor/bassist Gary Sinise. Guess what, they were all very cool and had time to answer questions on a personal level.
Besides my personal feelings about the person, I still think his playing is uninteresting.

[woodwindmaster06]

Kenny G is aweful he is just easy listening not jazz

[soulsax]

The Big Ken's up to 70 million cd's and records sold. Selling Easylistening that "aweful" ? Tell us ,,,How many cd's the "woodwindmaster" has sold?

[Kosma]

Soulsax, Come on man-you can say that crap about anyone who disses KG. It doesn't change the facts. How many CD's has Britney Spears sold?
Probably more than KG. Does that make her a good singer?

What are you trying to defend? His talent?

This has all been hashed and rehashed so I won't go on.

[Kosma]

Just a quick excrutiating story that happened to me:

I was at soundcheck on a gig with the Temptations last weekend and we were rehearsing a section that included a solo intro for me. I think the tune was Lady Soul or something exactly like that. Anyway I was playing 2 notes literally, just long whiny tones you know, what they wanted me to play.

There was this small group of middle aged groupies there and after the soundcheck one of them came up to me and said "I just love the way you play! You sound great! So I'm thinking: that's nice. Then she said: You sound just like Kenny G!

Man, I just wanted crawl up under the stage when I heard that!

The worst part is, I had no choice but to say "thank you" to her.

That really hurt!

[woodwindmaster06]

People who listen to kenny g generally are not saxophone players, His 70 million cds sold are people who have no idea what jazz is, they are older people who just want something easy and relaxing to listen to, I am not saying he is a bad player because he is good I am saying he is not jazz.

[Jazzophone]

I've occasionally heard snatches of the Dave Brubeck Quartet and Paul Desmond on both the "smooth jazz" station out here in Phoenix and in a local restaurant. It's disappointing that Brubeck is considered "smooth jazz", but at least I can imagine that folks listen to the "smooth jazz" station in hopes that they'll hear more Brubeck!

On that same note (no pun intended), I listened to our local smooth jazz radio station for a while, and started to like what was on there - yes, including Kenny G. That was sort of my introduction to JAZZ itself. Once I started listening to 'jazzier jazz,' or the more straight stuff, like Bird and Adderley and Ellington and other such things, I looked back at the smooth jazz stuff and started to wonder what I saw in it. Which is fair. But if it HADN'T been for the smooth jazz stuff, I wouldn't have been such a "real jazz" fan, nor as able to distinguish between the two.

If that makes sense. :?

Anyway, point being that KG was what I started with and now I've ended up with Coltrane. Maybe a bit of a roundabout road, but it got me going in the direction I wanted. I've gone through the gate and the latch is shut, but I can still look back and see what there was behind me.

[Kenfen]

I liked Kenny G's stuff when he played with Jeff Lorber. Check out Wizard Island. I like that album a lot....

One good thing about Kenny G, he's helped to keep the sax in the public's eye and mind.

When I was teaching, I got a lot of kids because of Kenny G. So, it's all gonna come out in the end.

I say, let the guy do what he does. There's much more to life than having millions of dollars.

If you don't like his stuff, it's so easy to avoid, I've not heard any Kenny G in a very long time. Too busy filling my head with all the greats of the sax, both jazz, classical and rnb...

Kind Regards,

Kenfen

[Tenorsaxer]

Kenny G is a virtuoso. He knows music and music theory. He is a better musician than 96% of people on this board. I personally though, do not like the stuff he plays.

People should stop whining about him having made so much money. He chose to do different music than you. Big Deal. He is a better musician than you most likely. He probably put a lot more hours into study than you ever will. Oh well.

If I ever go pro, I will certainly not be doing Kenny G style jazz. But I wont be bothered because it is a concious choice I would have made. These are my feelings and I will probably be slammed by some of the people on these boards because of this post. Oh well, it's just a message board. Kenny G is just another musician trying to make his way.

[soulsax]

"One good thing about Kenny G, he's helped to keep the sax in the public's eye and mind". Well Kenfen your right. Talant? He's got that too. Jazzophone, I grew up on "real jazz" and even took a few lessons from a giant yrs back. His name was Jimmy Ford. He was known as the "White Bird" and in his prime he lived up to it too. But my love for sax was more than just , "real jazz", so I moved on. I love the sounds of Bird, Hawkins, Getz, Desmond, and on and on. But I now dig the sounds of Grover, Sandborn, and many others. ... "jazz" has been part of America since the 20s! JAZZ... JAZZ! ... Bird wasnt playing in the 20s, But Jazz was being played!!! ??You know it all's,, figure that one out, and tell us when jazz was born, and who did it ...?? A few yrs back I was doing some work inside the step van. Id been to the pawn shop earlier and they had a sale on used cd' so I got abt 5. One was a kenny g cd, and it so happened that when it was on "Mom" came outside while it was playing. Not very loud either. Well I couldn't tell you which song, but it was a soprano one. (Whats new) Mom's words were " what are you listening to, it's beautiful" . Mom is 86, she lives alone, drives, and gets around well. She grew up on Glenn Miller, Dixie Land, Swing, Elvis, she raised 3 musicians, I pay attention when she gives imput on music. So Kosma ,,,I take some offense to "crap" more than you think. Britney Spears is a poor example to compare to Kenny G too. If there is a point to make here,, ,do it,, ,but use another sax player. "This has all been hashed and rehashed so I wont go on". I wished you would really. I can be pretty damn humble. But, when some one puts a post out there like>> "Kenny G is aweful he is just easy listening not jazz",< < I will probably be somewhat abrasive...Kenfen I bet the name Kenny G has come up 100 times over the yrs while playing on the streets. Should I let it bother me? I don't...

[madsax]

We should take over the world...

[Kosma]

Soul- I said crap in reference to the "you're just jealous because KG is rich and famous and you're not" routine. (I'm paraphrasing)

I just don't think that's the case with most people who dislike him or his music.

I greatly resent the screwed up image the general public have of jazz and saxophone, or jazz saxophone. Like KG is the pinnacle of modern jazz.
He's more like a pimple on modern jazz.

OK so his music is more accessible to those people, and it has exposed more people to instrumental music. This is not a bad thing-until some half drunk jerk comes up to me on break and starts telling me KG is the best sax player. (yes, something like that did happen years ago)

People will like what they're exposed to. I've seen it happen over and over. Not always, but I have turned many people on to jazz for the first time in their life and it was like a revelation for some of them.

There's a lot of great music being made right now and no one in the mainstream audience gets to hear it because for whatever reason it gets 0 airplay. I'm talking about listenable entertaining cutting edge music like Ben Allison and Medicine Wheel and Charlie Hunter's Quintet to name two.

But no, we are only allowed to have garbage on every radio station.
It's a sad situation. This is why I get bent up about Kenny G. Whether he's a good sax player or not, his music sucks. Just like 99.9% of the "music" you will hear if you turn on the radio.

But he's not a "great" sax player-not by any definition.

This is my opinion and technically it can't be wrong, because I said so.

[Pete]

Yes sir, opinions are opinions and you're allowed to have them. No one necessarily has to agree with them, though :).

I don't think Kenny G's music "sucks", I just think that a lot of his music is, well, something more appropriate for elevators. I also don't like what he's done to some jazz standards and think that Louis Armstrong spins in his grave every time that Kenny G butchers "Wonderful World". I think he's got some intonation and rhythmic issues (which he himself says, so that's not an opinion, it's a fact).

However, lots of people not only don't think Kenny G's music doesn't suck, they think that it's pretty decent.

Jazz, I'm very glad that you actually got hooked on "real jazz" after listening to Kenny G and "smooth jazz" radio. I really hope you're in the majority because, if you are, the jazz world can only benefit.

Soulsax, don't take it too personally. In the opinion of many, Kenny G's music is jazz. It's not, in my opinion, and that of many other folks on this 'site. I did say (what, 100 posts ago?) that jazz is very difficult to classify. I also said, Kenny G makes it easy to classify his music: he and others that play in that genre don't call their music jazz. They call it "smooth jazz" or "easy listening" or "new age" or "adult contemporary".

If, when I'm playing bari, someone comes up to me and tries to compliment me by saying I "sound like Kenny G", it does detract from the compliment because the person obviously hasn't much of a clue about the saxophone (unless I'm doing some complex altissimo work, I suppose :)). However, just accept it as a compliment and move on. You might even suggest, "Oh. You liked that? You should listen to Blaise Lantana's nightly Jazz show on 91.5, KJZZ."

[soulsax]

8) taking nothing personal about the sax or the g dude.
:D But "jazz" and "smooth jazz" ? Whats the difference, when it comes to the public? Think about it. "Smooth jazz" sounds somewhat "hip", so, we get stuck with it! We do get stuck with whats played too. Yep radio is controlled. So is TV. ...Man, I wished we could get a grip on what's jazz!

[Kosma]

That was supposed to be a joke! I just can't use the winky face. Can't do it.


Emoticons are to language as Kenny G is to music...

[Kosma]

And those of you fortunate enough to have a jazz radio station are, well, fortunate. We don't, except on Friday and Saturday night.

[jazzbluescat]

And those of you fortunate enough to have a jazz radio station are, well, fortunate. We don't, except on Friday and Saturday night.

Try (around) 97-98 FM WSHA, NC Central U, out of Raleigh.
They recently increased their wattage. I get it down here in Cumb. Co.
Also, WFSS Fayetteville State U. around 91.9 FM.
[My radio isn't digital.]

[MissNiceness]

The only thing I can really give the man props for is being able to play with that oh-so-cute half grin on his face and the sax angled so that the camaras can get the best view.

Unfortunately though, Kenny G (as well as his success) is nothing more than a sign of the times. Times when true art can knock 90% of the public in the head and they still not know what it is. Oh, well. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Hehehehe. :lol:

[Manny]

after reading this thread IN ITS ENTIRETY (yes I am very tired ant its 2am here...) this is what I came up with...

most pop music today has a lack of creativity and relies on one or two aspects of music (which is why real musicians hate it) ie, rap is about rhythem, not much else and disco was the "death" of music because of this.

This is our hope for the future:

around the world there are kids like me falling in love with real music in the bandroom; music ment like it was suppose to be played; music that utilizes as many aspects as it can creatively. (isnt music all about creating something out of these 12 notes?)

thats why we recognize the greats like bird and 'train, because they have added an aspect (or sounds on the saxophone (while supporting and using others) and have opened up our minds to it, because they're creative.

Kenny G. has done nothing of the sort thats why I dont admire him.


I disrespect him because he's an idiot.
by what I get by the barns and noble article posted way back there, he has not a love or real music mentioned above, or appreciation for what the greats have done to embellish it. he would rather go golfing...

kudos kenny for making it so big, and thank you for putting the sax in the forefront of our generation, but I still hate you :lol:

If you need me I will be in my room trying to open some aspects of my own...

[Stencilman]

Here's your chance to win a sax autographed by Kenny in an auction hosted by Houston's lite jazz station:

http://www.khjz.com/wavepromotions.asp

Hilarious that there is no mention of what type of sax it is. I'll bet it is one of the Selmer MKVI's he has stashed in his music closet. Not! Expect to to it up for auction on Ebay.

Even though I listen to smooth jazz on occasion, this station seems to think that cheesy old pop ballads classify as jazz. I've yet to hear them play any of Barry Manilow's mush.

[pnuttbutta]

I've gotta chime in...

In my very first sax lesson, I was asked "Who do you listen to?" (meaning saxophonists). I didn't listen to anybody at the time. I thought I was the only person in the world that played saxophone when I was 12. :) My teachers response was "Whatever you do, don't listen to Kenny G." He then proceeded to play for me recordings of Getz, Brecker, & Lenny Pickett. So, very early on, I was conditioned to think that Kenny G was a saxophonist's version of the anti-christ. I've always been really heavy into 'Trane, Getz, Potter, etc. Then, while in Denton at a friend's house, I heard some live recording of a pop saxophonist, and I stopped to listen. I didn't know who it was at the time. I have to admit that I was impressed. I was informed that I was listening to Mr. Gorelick and I couldn't believe it. Even though I had already formed an opinion on him, this was the first time I had ever actually heard him play. I felt a little bad. I don't own any records of his, but he doesn't offend me either. There's a big difference between liking something and respecting something. OK, that's it. I'm not ever commenting on the subject ever again. :wink:

BTW - If anyone cares what Pat Metheny thinks of Gorelick, read on...
http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm

[soreliprick]

I can't believe I ate the whole thing.
I wish everyone would have read the whole thing. There were at least 3 different offers to see what that great rock guitarist, Pat Metheny, has to say about KG, ONE OF THE GREATEST GOLFING SAXOPHONISTS IN THE WORLD.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go to my Jazz Music Club and order Charlie Parker with Strings. What a sell-out he turned out to be.{Place emoticons here}

[soreliprick]

While at my Jazz Club I also picked up Kenny's tribute to Lynyrd Skynyrd.

[adrianw]

It simply comes down to jealousy. To criticise Janis Joplin because she didn't have an opera trained voice and Jimi Hendrix because he doesn't hold a candle to Tommy Emmanuel is ridiculous. They did what they did and people loved them for it. Some jazz musicians hate Kenny G because he plays stuff that people actually want to hear whereas many jazz musicians play what they themselves want to hear and the audience can go screw themselves.
Just watch the musicians next time you are at a gig and see how they spend more time interacting with eachother than the audience. That's why jazz has always been 'fringe' and always will be.
The trouble with jazz, at least in my country, is that it is played by older, jaded ex-mainstream musicians who now snub their noses at what gave them a living and now wish to show off their skill in improvisation by playing the loudest, highest and most annoying note it's possible to get out of a metal tube. It unfortunately comes across to me as an exercise in self indulgence rather than a real attempt to entertain an audience.
Jazz musicians should sit down and take a long hard look at the industry and adapt their style to what people want to hear. Take a look at the difference between what many rock groups record and what they do on stage. They adapt to what people want and then find that there is plenty of scope for self expression and improvisation once they have got people's attention.
Unfortunately, many jazz musicians are such snobs they play music that hasn't changed for 50 years, present it to the public as a package and say take it or leave it. Then they moan because people won't accept it in the mainstream.
Jazz is doing nothing to look for a new audience. It just sits there waiting for people to come to it. If you want to make money at it then cross over to other forms, jazz-opera, jazz-rock, jazz-rap, jazz-disco..........anything as long as it's not the same stale old stuff that's been around longer than living memory. Opera did it , symphony orchestras did it, rock groups like the Who did it (Tommy). They crossed over to other forms and introduced new music to their audiences.
If KG were to introduce 'jazz' to his captive audience he could potentially do more for the style than any of the jazz muso's who just sit on their duff and wait for an audience to come to them. I'm not a religious person but it's sort of like the difference between a church bound minister who preaches to the converted and a missionary who goes out into the wide world and looks for converts. :shock:

[Manny]

I'm sure that for people who can go beyond their initial feelings are not jealous...

we saxophone players are very partial to jazz because it has been such a part of our instruments history. for a sax player to reject it is initially frustrating, but you can't hate the G man for that.

I think that the real problem is that popular music nowadays (and for the past 2 decades; of course with some exceptions) has devolved into droning that takes no musical talent to create.

Now, I'm not saying Kenny isn't talented, but he thinks of himself as God on a sax, and normal everyday people accept it because he sells the most records. He is so closeminded that the actual musical gurus in the past that made our instrument as it is are of no standing to him...but real musicians can recognize that in fact, he just isn't as good as many others; past and present.

I think though, that you might have something adrianw about jazz as a whole though, and if Mr. Gorlick can get his head out of his butt and play his sax instead of playing golf (and write music that sounds good AND musicians can be impressed by) he can be "one of the greats"

I think jazz suffers by the opposite problem: its music musicians can respect, but has no listening quality to the average person.(as adrianw has stated)


The band Radiohead is not music that I'm inclined to listen to, but I still respect them because they are truly real musicians...

[jazzbluescat]

....Jazz is doing nothing to look for a new audience. It just sits there waiting for people to come to it. If you want to make money at it then cross over to other forms, jazz-opera, jazz-rock, jazz-rap, jazz-disco..........anything as long as it's not the same stale old stuff.....

So, in other words, jazzers should not play jazz, eh(?). Jazzers should play jazz "on the side", for themselves and hold another gig for "what the people want"., hang that darn art!
I know and am a firm believer that a good player and/or jazzer can connect with the audience, if he can get them to listen; that's the trick. Most "yahoos" like music for the party atmosphere it creates and/or how it enhances other activities, rather than the music itself. Don't get me wrong, I hold no illusions of playing jazz for a living, I don't sit around and moan. I realize that we as a society are ignoring values in favor of the profit motive.

Sad but true, for the most part, your post was right on target; but, there's a little more happening, you just have to look for it.

What gripes my patoot is that the prevalence of non musicians doing music are setting the precedence of actually being real musicians and the real players are being held to those non musician standard by the public, rather than the other way around. You know, can you really play or can't you. It just comes "natural" for real players to play in tune and do stuff a little more complex than a "moron" holding an instrument. I mean you don't compare a child's finger painting to a Rembrandt portrait, do you?
When I view a great work of art I don't compare the work to my own humble abilities/inabilities. Nowadays as soon as you get a little beyond the yahoos abilities, you get tuned out. It's all about the ME syndrome.

Ok, I'll stop(for now). :evil:

[Big Nick]

Adrianw - thankyou.
Saved me a lot of typing.
It simply comes down to jealousy.
Sums it up very well.

[kevvieg]

Not all of us are whing about the non-acceptance of jazz. I would rather have a job outside of music than have to water down what I do to please a fickle audience. I don't play to entertain; I play because I have to play. Playing is as much a part of me as breathing, eating, and sleeping. When I play with likeminded colleagues and we are communicating, it is better than any drug. It is the greatest feeling in the world. If there are two people in the audience or 2000, I play at the same level because I don't rely on the audience for my inspiration. Is it self-indulgent? Perhaps, but I am not playing in an intentionally inaccessible manner to alienate an audience. I am playing with communication in mind, and I truly believe that if the music is good, and the musicians are enjoying each other that that music will find an audience.

I have no problem with the Gorelicks and Kozs being popular, so long as they don't attempt to represent themselves as jazz because jazz is an evolving music. Playing watered down instrumental music with no improvisational emphasis is not musical evolution; it is devolution. I don't like the music of the Art Ensemble of Chicago or Anthony Braxton, but I respect the artistry behind what they do. I also admire musicians like Dave Holland, who is constantly evolving in his musicianship without worrying about how it will fare on the Billboard charts. Grover Washington was an excellent player, and a superb entertainer, but I have infinitely more respect for him than Miss G because he acknowledged his entertainer status while branching out into more esoteric ventures.

I think what gets us most pi**ed off is not G's success, but the cynicism behind it. David Sanborn is wildly successful, and he deserves it. The same can be said of Herbie Hancock, who released some tripe, but still has an artistic vision.

Art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive, but entertainment for its own sake must be recognized as such. It's like a dinner at McDonald's - it serves a purpose, but it is neither fulfilling nor substantial.

[Manny]

well said.

[Spencer]

Back in the late 80's there was this guy that used to play Song Bird to open his set. It was tremendous. In the first 2 and a half hour set on Friday night the band used to play what one might call accustic smooth Jazz. They put Kenny G to shame. The place would be packed. If you cared to stay after the break that's when the Jazz started. I couldn't tell which set they enjoyed more. Both crowds were into them and for me that is part of the tradition.
So instead of being afraid of Kenny G they went with it. I'll be the first to tell you that even I was offended with Kenny G's playing when he came on the scene. He said at the time he was into himself. Nobody influenced him and it sounded like it.
Fast foward 15 years later and anything that has come after the Louis Armstrong debacle sounds like he must be studying something somewhere. His tenor sound is lush and in tune. A Jazz vocabulary is coming out of the horn.
I'm not saying rush out and buy his records just that he must at some point have started listening to all the criticism and is doing something about it which I'm sure we could all do.

[frankbiff]

Art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive, but entertainment for its own sake must be recognized as such. It's like a dinner at McDonald's - it serves a purpose, but it is neither fulfilling nor substantial.

Neither fulfilling nor substantial! Well, some is, and some isn't. Thinking that there is no art in entertainment for its own sake is rather narow minded; and a bit snobish and stuck-up; well actualy a lot snobish and stuck-up. Enertainment for its own sake can be extremily rewarding (i'm not talking $$$). Many people enjoy doing it and consider themselves artists. To compare it with McDonald's is an insult. I would think that much of current jazz could also be compaired to McDonalds, neither fulfilling nor substantial.

[adrianw]

I would think that much of current jazz could also be compaired to McDonalds, neither fulfilling nor substantial.
How true!!
Friends asked if I wanted to go to a jazz picnic at a winery in a town a little way up the coast. The very talented Brett Iggulden is playing and although I like his sax I think I can guess the title of just about every song they are going to do. It's the same basic gig I've heard from every jazz band here and in Sydney ever since I have been listening to jazz.
I've been waiting for something different and innovative to happen but it never does. The musos are in their sixties, so are the crowd and some of the music is even older.
As for the much touted improvisational skills of jazz musos, I think they are extremely overated. Although extremely skillfull I have to say that if you were to record many jazz gigs, the so-called improvisation sounds almost exactly the same every time. Which begs the question of whether it is improvisation or just a much practiced riff with very few variations.
I've only had a few sax lessons and just play for fun so I'm not putting down any of the serious players. It just rubs me up the wrong way when these "I will die for my art" types put down a guy because he's not willing to stay true to jazz even if it means living out of garbage cans. A little strong I know but it comes across that way in many of the KG posts.
Personally, I believe KG and people like him have done more to advance the cause of the saxophone than any much more talented muso playing the same old tunes to the same old crowd in the same old smoke filled club.

[jazzbluescat]

Art and entertainment are not mutually exclusive, but entertainment for its own sake must be recognized as such. It's like a dinner at McDonald's - it serves a purpose, but it is neither fulfilling nor substantial.

Neither fulfilling nor substantial! Well, some is, and some isn't. Thinking that there is no art in entertainment for its own sake is rather narow minded; and a bit snobish and stuck-up; well actualy a lot snobish and stuck-up. Enertainment for its own sake can be extremily rewarding (i'm not talking $$$). Many people enjoy doing it and consider themselves artists. To compare it with McDonald's is an insult. I would think that much of current jazz could also be compaired to McDonalds, neither fulfilling nor substantial.

No. What makes it snobbish and stuck-up is your saying it is, IMHO. The man was simply stating his opinion, which I happen to agree; actually, I'll go so far as to say it's a fact. While there are aspects of entertainment and art in both e&a, there is usually a definite difference between the two. And, just because somebody(or the people) calls themselves an artist doesn't make it so. Unless you want to (re)define artist to suit some sort of ego feed, as is pretty common these days.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying being an entertainer. But, why call it art(?). It may be artistic, but not necessary art.

[frankbiff]

And, just because somebody(or the people) calls themselves an artist doesn't make it so.

Yes, it does. As a matter of fact, its is the only thing that makes art art and artists artists. Art is only in the eyes (and ears) of the beholder, nothing more and nothing less. You may think its trash, but that does not change a thing.
Doesn't matter if your talking soup cans, Lictenstines pows and wows, Picaso, Cage, Bird, Madona, Eminem or yourself. If the artist or the audiance, or the critics think it's art, it is; always has been and always will be. To think otherwise, is well... you know.

You think that is not the way is or should be, but it is the way things are.

I happen to think that most of everything (but by no means all) that is called art these days (and for the last 60 yrs) is trash. But that don't change a thing. Art is what you think it is.

[jazzbluescat]

Yes, it does. As a matter of fact, its is the only thing that makes art art and artists artists. Art is only in the eyes (and ears) of the beholder, nothing more and nothing less. You may....

[I'm a monarch, by the way. :lol: Just thought I'd tell you...]
Nope, I disagree. I think you're being too broad with your definition of art/artist. What you're saying, I think, is if I call/think of myself as an artist then by the very virtue of playing my horn makes my sounds art.
If I, being an artist, look at an ordinary dining room wall painted a flat white, see/perceive it to be something else, or even as a wonderful creation of man, then it's art. Going by this, then your definition is correct.
And, if someone should happen to agree with my assessment, well, that clinches it, I am an artist!

Lets jump into the melting pot. Everything/anything means anything and everything.
:lol:

[JimD]

This has been around a long time. "Everything the artist spits is art" said Kurt Schwitters sometime in the 20's. Since then that's been grabbed by any number of "artists" as enough justification. Schwitters also wrote

Fumms bo wo taa zaa uu,
pogiff,
kwii Ee
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo,

which I think is more to the point.

The Duchamp said..."Art is like a shipwreck .. it's everyman for himself."
that sums up the modern dilemma.

As for me, I don't know much about art, but I recognise it when I see it, or hear it, and Kenny G ain't it, although Kenny Garrett is.

[RS]

So. Two hundred posts and counting. Is that Rod Serling over there? "...and you have inadvertantly wandered into the..."

[frankbiff]

If I, being an artist, look at an ordinary dining room wall painted a flat white, see/perceive it to be something else, or even as a wonderful creation of man, then it's art. Going by this, then your definition is correct.

My definitions is correct. Pay a visit to you local musieum of modern art, and check out whats there, a blank canvas might be hanging on the wall,( one does, but I forget where). localy I think we have a framed dot , also some squares. But don't forget those Cambell Soup Cans.

I wish it wasn't so, but it is, and i'm not defending it, but that is the way things are.

[kevvieg]

Again, what this debate seems to be about is the right of the artist, so-called or otherwise, to choose what he/she chooses to create. Some of you like to state the obvious. I remember talking to someone about my disdain for large corporations and the need for a more fair system of wealth distribution, though not true communism. He accused me of being a left-winger. well DUH!!!

I am called intolerant and a snob. I wear that badge proudly. We need to have some standards as a society wherein, just because something is CALLED art, doesn't mean it will always be accepted as such. I will accept that Adam Sandler is an excellent entertainer on the basis of his popularity, but I have infinitely more respect for Steve Martin who has acted in serious roles, written novels, directed, and produced. Not all of his output has been good, but he's not content to do the same old - same old.

Gorelick and his ilk are more than entitled to emit their saccherine schlock, but I stand behind my opinion that a well made dessert is still not a meal. I have not been Wyntonesque in my postings - I think it is equally damaging to adhere to a style mired in one era.

It is not wrong to be an entertainer, and there are lots of folks out there with different tastes. However it is equally snobbish for people to assume that they have the right to dictate what an artist does. If someone wants to buy a red dot on white canvas, great. If they don't like Picasso, that's okay to. It's when they expect Picasso to paint red dots on white canvas that it becomes aggravating. (yes, I know Picasso is dead - it's an analogy).

I am definitely offended by the labelling of muzak as jazz. WHY? Because it places an expectation that, when I play jazz, some nutbar is going to be expecting diatonic elevator music from my band. I hear people talking about "musos". These are frequently the people who haven't had the interest or discipline to learn an instrument, or to practise if they do play an instrument. Not all trained musicians are in their 60's, and it not old-fashioned to expect standards. Chris Potter and Jon Gordon immediately come to mind as younger players who are stretching their creative parameters. Potter did not try to play pop sax solos on Steely Dan's album. He was hired to play like Chris Potter and he did. If he had laid down a Kenny G style, I would have questioned why they didn't just hire Kenny G, but he didn't.

Not every audience member wants to be educated about music. Some people are quite happy to eat burgers and fries every day. They have every right to do so, but if they expect me to serve that to them, they had better go to another restaurant cuz it ain't on my menu.

We all make choices. I choose to play for the love of the music and the cameraderie with my fellow musicians, and I respect those who feel similarly. If that means I never have the adulation of a fickle public, I have no problem with that. Music isn't a job to me; it is a pursuit of expression that may or not entertain someone. I have a day job where my expectations are specific and somewhat inflexible, yet I enjoy my job so it isn't hard to operate within the rules. I'll be damned if music is going to become a job where everyone has a say in what I play except me, just because the audience has a new flavour of the month. I never wanted to play like Clarence Clemons in the 80's and I won't emulate the well-coifed schlockmeisters of the nineties and today. If you don't like how I play, that's cool but don't hire me, after having heard me play, and then expect me to play like someone else.

[tubbycub]

Why does every jazzer hates KG?

Maybe some of the older guys might be right about their opinion but these are all subjective matters. I noticed that quite a number of young cats on this thread share the same opinion but I am wondering....could this be due to the influence of others. Lets say, KG was left to do his stuff and no jazzer has made a single comment about him, I am sure that there will not be so many anit-KGs around. Let's put it in another way, say some jazz giants commented that KG is a great saxophonist, do you think that this thread might not even exist at all.

Look at fusion music, do you call it jazz? Spyro Grya, Rippingtons, David Benoit, Lee Ritenour, Dave Koz, Warren Hill and many more. A lot of people I know actually could not tell the difference between their music and KG's. Would you call these musicians "sell outs" too?

I am not trying to stir up controversy here but just throwing in my 2 cents worth about this topic. Although my main interest is jazz but I do listen to other music as well, including Linkin Park.

Hey, any Linkin Park fans out there? :D

[Manny]

An LP fan right here, hailing from chester's home state, AZ

[kevvieg]

If you paid any attention to the thread, you would see that thae reaction against Kenny G is not based on the opinions of critics and other musicians but, rather, on upholding a standard as to what jazz is. You refer to jazzers - I count myself as one. One can be a decent or even excellent player on one's instrument without it being jazz. There is good jazz and bad jazz; good rock and bad rock, etc. But the players you mention (especially Warren Hill) are not jazz musicians. They may or not be excellent musicians, but what they play is not jazz.

I went to see Tower of Power last week and it was amazing! It was sponsored by a local "smooth jazz) (gag) station, but as much as I love TOP, THEY DON"T PLAY JAZZ!!!

You don't have to like jazz, but don't try to manipulate music that isn't jazz into being something it isn't. The Yellowjackets would qualify as jazz by my paremeters, but definitely not the Rippingtons. Bob Mintzer brings a considerably greater degree of sophistocation to the Yellowjackets than Jeff Kashiwa (sp?) brings to the Rippingtons. That doesn't make Jeff or the Rippingtons bad, but it reduces the sense of exploration that is embodied in jazz.

I would rather listen to pop artists like Beck or Bowie who continue to expand than faux-jazz that attempts to water down the standards of the music.

[jazzbluescat]

Why does every jazzer hates KG?....... :D

Don't know 'bout every jazzer, but, I dislike him simply for "his" rendition of Its a Wonderful World. IMHO, it was unethical, was making money from someone else's recording. Plus, he can't hold a candle to Armstrong, doesn't compare no way, shape or form; yet the general public thinks "wow, this guy must be good, he's on a recording with the great Louie Armstrong." :evil: He's a da*n pipsqueek.

[tubbycub]

Don't know 'bout every jazzer, but, I dislike him simply for "his" rendition of Its a Wonderful World. IMHO, it was unethical, was making money from someone else's recording.[/quote]

It now brings to the controversy of popsters trying to associate themselves with jazz and vice versa. Look at Natalie Cole, didn't she tried to duet with her father on "Unforgettable". I mean, if you guys considered Nat King Cole as a jazzer. OK, Jeff Kashiwa and Warren Hill are not jazzera, what about people like Sadao Watanabe, Jay Beckenstein, and even the great Grover Washington Jr does a fair bit of pop in "Just the two of us" and the wonderful Phil Woods on "Just the way you are". Do you call them sell outs too?

This is not a pure jazz forum, but simply a saxophone forum. There are classical saxophonists here too and they are the direct opposite of jazz. What do you consider them as? People are free to do whatever they like as long as they do not harm others. We are living in a realistic world, and people gotta do things for bread, its just an occupation. Come on, KG doesn't call his music and style as jazz, let the guy do whatever he likes...

[SopranoSue]

>Look at Natalie Cole, didn't she tried to duet with her father on "Unforgettable". <

BUT, that was HER dad. She had every right to do that.

Playing someone else's song by yourself is one thing. Dubbing over or playing as if you are WITH someone else is another thing entirely. I don't care WHO YOU ARE -- if you don't have the OK from the person or family who you want to play along with, you are stealing THEIR performance, not enhancing yours.

I lost whatever acknowledgement/respect/admiration (not sure of words here...) I had for KG when he did that. It would be like me playing over Otis Redding's "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay" and releasing it as my own. I have many other words and VERY strong feelings about this, but I'll hold my tongue.

IMHO only...

... and I'm not even a professional musician. :oops:

[Larry G]

I'm with tubbycub that ...... let the boy play! It's not my style but at least it's not another guitar or hey it could be an accordian ! It's just a biz thing and I have heard his non-commercial stuff is pretty clean. Look around folks, they all notice us now and part of that is due to the pop-jazz thing. I love my sax! Larry G

[soulsax]

I was being a couch potato the other night, and came across the "Big Ken" in concert on BET jazz. So I stopped and watched the man play for a while. He was all dressed up, hair slicked and oiled. Had a full rythem section,(three precussions) and blowing his side mounted brass pipe. I wondered if he could still blow a tenor when about that time he picked it up and played Girl from Ipanima, followed by Desafanato(?). Well it so happens those are two Getz songs that I've done for years, so I payed attention, and thought he did a good job. Call it what ever, but it sounded sort'a "jazzie" to me any way. The fans were into it big time. Of course they dont know what jazz is do they? His Armstrong duo does not bother me as much as others (especially my brother), but it does bother me some. It got a lot of air play so somebody likes it. The 20s are called the decade of jazz, yet some will tell you that was swing, big band stuff. If thats true, jazz is almost 90 years old. In the 40s the term "bebop" started. Its a fact that "Bird" hated the term, saying that he played music and listened for the pretty notes 8) Im not the big fan of Kenny G some might think I am, but I can tell you this. I listen for the "pretty notes" too, and if I don't here enough pretty notes, or the song fails to entertain me, I'll change it. Real jazz, or bubble gum jazz it don't matter. Now if we could take Kenny, give him a hair cut, nose job, teach him to play sax with the mouthpeice centered, and play some real jazz ,it be a matter of time before he'd drop on the charts and we'd have another #1 instrumental taking his place. Said it before, real jazz as many call it never has been very popular. I can't falt the big Ken for that. But saxophone pop is at and all time high, and like it or not Kenny gets a lot of credit... :cry:

[tubbycub]

In fact, Mozart and Bach were the popsters before the 18th century and jazz was THE pop music during the 30s and 40s. Things just evolve with time.

[totst]

He's a jerk and an a*****e. He didn't even try to be nice. Well up yours Mr. G.

Threw away all my G CDs after the incident. Shortly after switched to Kenny Garrett. The true Kenny G, more heart and more soul. I'm happy now. :D

[michaelbaird]

I think he is a good talented player. What I find interesting about him is his sound. It gets very hard to distinguish his soprano, alto and tenor tones. He obviously has a very consistent air column. He isn't my favorite style. I consider his music sex music anyway; the chicks dig him.

[tubbycub]

I think he is a good talented player. What I find interesting about him is his sound. It gets very hard to distinguish his soprano, alto and tenor tones. He obviously has a very consistent air column. He isn't my favorite style. I consider his music sex music anyway; the chicks dig him.

I once saw him practicing on alto and soprano one afternoon at Hard Rock Cafe when he was doing a gig in Singapore some years back. He didn't sound like his records at all, in fact, just typical sax sounds. The sound that we are all too familiar of must have been heavily digitally processed.

[wiju]

picked it up and played Girl from Ipanima, followed by Desafanato(?). Well it so happens those are two Getz songs that I've done for years

sorry, but they are not from getz, he used to play them.

that´s bossanova, brazilian, Tom Jobim´s work.

sorry, kenny "G"arret???? he is overwhelming :lol:

hugs

[wiju]

another question, we are spending more time ripping him than other thing.

and that means we are giving this guy more importance than he deserve.

what do you all think?

hugs :D

wiju

[michaelbaird]

I asked Michael Brecker who he listened to and he mentioned Kenny Garrett.

[wiju]

another question, we are spending more time ripping him than other thing.
and that means we are giving this guy more importance than he deserve.
what do you all think?
hugs :D
wiju

hahahahaha :lol: i mean kenny G

garret is one of my favorites...

hugs

pd: michael, you're been tough with me :lol:

[soulsax]

No ***** wiju, like I didn't know that. Jobim wrote Wave too, and many others. When people here Desafanato, or Girl from Ipanema, they think Getz, not Jobim. Thats just the way it go's. Galveston was a big hit by Glenn Cambell, but Jimmy Webb wrote it. Paul Desmond wrote, and played sax on take 5. But today it's thought of as a Brubeck tune. :evil: Iv'e never heard Jobim do Desafanato or Ipanema, but I think he was one of the greatest bossa writers ever...

[michaelbaird]

Wiju,
I knew you meant Kenny G. I found the Kenny Garrett comment rather humorous that's why I mentioned it. The only CD I have him playing on is Miles Davis Amandla. I've been planning to look for some of his stuff next time I go shopping.

[Jazzophone]

Yeah. Jobim was the brains and the ink behind Desafinado and The Girl from Ipanema, but Getz was the one that gave them to the masses. Who these days knows pop songs by the people that wrote them? I'll guarantee Britney Spears didn't write most of the songs people know her for.

[jazzbluescat]

.....Iv'e never heard Jobim do Desafanato or Ipanema, but I think he was one of the greatest bossa writers ever...

He's on GETZ/GILBERTO (1964, Verve). They do Ipanema.

[noelpaz]

Ahh Kenny G - I've never liked mainstream music. One of my ex-girlfriends got me to listen to him and I have to admit I tried to learn some tunes he had, but it was too much reverb and processed, that I cannot get the same feeling or unfeeling. So I'd play the melodyof my friends favorites and then play some bebop or complete unrelated modal pattern as a solo. Anyway my friend finally learned to appreciate "real" jazz and I got her turned into Pat Metheny during th course of our relationship and last time I spoke to her, she digs Braxton and Rashan now. So maybe there is something good in Kenny G.

My wife disliked him from the start. She liked branford marsalis on soprano because she toured with the greatful dead. In her own words, "that is real burning improvisation inspite of the constrict of jam music chord progressions". I think even though Marsalis was in the context of rock and roll and popular tunes, he shows that you can still do a lot chrodally, harmonicaly and rhytmically. That for me is the spirit of real jazz and improvisational music. You should be able to play with one chord, no chord, gazillion chord changes and abrupt tempo changes and say something. The music I'd really like to play is later Coltrane Ayler, Ornette,- new music - knitting factory - avant garde. But I've played Rock and Roll and lounge music. You can always find and opputunity to twist it.

Anyway - the watering down of good music not only plagues jazz in America. I lived in India nad learned some raga music. When you watch present day Indian films and listen to Indian music, the soloist and music in todays commercial endeavors is just what Kenny G is doing to jazz. The real raga improvisers that are good are not well known or starving. I think most of the music audience in the world standards are really going down. BTW in Asia Kenny G is popular and people think that is jazz music.

Kenny G - I don't care if he is a millionaire and succesful. Musically he doesn't inspire me. . He found an oppurtunity and worked it. Really I am more soothed by hip hop and rap than smooth jazz. In fact hiphop is really an inspiration for me to play complex rhythms on the sax. I have kids and drive my kids and other kids around. When I listen to radio music and I've found out that they actually get more irritated lsitening to smooth jazz stations, than the university art radio or hiphop. Children must know something that is essentially true.

[soulsax]

Humm,,,? :arrow: "You should be able to play with one chord...and say something" "One of my exgirlfriends got me to listen to him...but it was too much reverb" ..."Id play the melody of my friends favorites, and then play some bebop, or some complete unrelated modal pattern as a solo"..."I got her turned into Pat Metheny durning the course of our relationship"..."maybe there is something good in Kenny G" "My wife disliked him from the start. She liked branford marsalis on soprano because she toured with the Greatful Dead"..."Really I am more soothed by hip hop and rap than smooth jazz". :roll:... Thanks for that "enlightening post. I'll go sleep on it... Peace, and Hugs :lol:

[juny]

A friend of mine (a drummer) played a gig with Kenney G.

During intermission, my friend handed a copy of the program to Kenny and asked if he would please autograph it for him.

After the gig, my friend found the unsigned program next to Kenny G's chair!

No need to say more about the man.

juny

[T.S.]

I personally find Kenny's music far too sacahrine for my tastes, but given that, he has turned many on to the saxophone, and that is not a bad thing.

Years ago, the thing that eventually led me to listen to jazz, was Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull....I was fascinated by this crazy rock and roller who stood on one leg and sang into the flute...it led me to buy a flute and teach myself to play it...Then one day there was an article in which he was interviewed and mentioned that he owed his playing to Rashaan Roland Kirk...WHO'S ROLAND KIRK???? I had to ask...I went and bought an LP of "I TALK WITH THE SPIRITS" and it led my ears to many a fascinating musical nook and cranny, and I will be forever grateful to Mr. Anderson for his directions.. whether intentional or not...

If Kenny turns any ears on to something else more challenging either on purpose or by complete accident...I say it's a good deal.

[soulsax]

Right on TS. I saw Tull in 1970. He did put on a great concert too. Just last night I went to a friends house at midnight, and they were listening to some old cd's. Homeboy put on a 60s Tull cd that id never heard before, that was good. Damn good. Didn't sound like the Tull of the 70s It got me to wondering what type of music background did Anderson have. He was too good on that flute back then to just be a pop star. Had to be more to it than that. Just like Kenny G on sax, everybody in my young crowd thought he was the best flute player ever. Sacahrine has been popular, and user friendly for years, so the masses keep buying it. Kenny G fits that mold in many ways.

[RS]

I also saw Jethro Tull in '70 (or maybe '71). I think it was at the Spectrum in South Philly. Great band and show. I was just starting to get interested in jazz at that time.

[T.S.]

Ian Anderson is a very gifted musician and was a great showman...He says that he just picked up the flute, and during the group's peak was just faking it.. (He played cheap and as he says, disposable-as I'm sure some were damaged during his crazy stage antics-He now has a Pearl and a Prima Sankyo)..He says that a few years ago his daughter presented him with several flute books, and he was astounded at how many "wrong" fingerings he was using. That being said, he had to work on the instrument to do much of what he did. He is a fine acoustic guitarist. The album "Stand Up" with Martin Barre, Glen Cornick, and Clive Bunker is still one my favorite Rock albums.

Rashaan supposedly really hated him for what he perceived as having his approach ripped off....But if it hadn't been for Ian, I probably would have been completely unaware of not only Rashaan, but many other great musicians....

[Sigmund451]

There is a post as to who is deader Coletrane or Bird...maybe KG should be added as a third option :twisted:

[Sigmund451]

Coltrane that is (spelling) I miss the edit feature.

[wiju]

Yeah. Jobim was the brains and the ink behind Desafinado and The Girl from Ipanema, but Getz was the one that gave them to the masses.

sorry again, but i think more in tom jobim and joao gilberto for this two songs more than stan getz.

hugs

[wiju]

No ***** wiju, like I didn't know that. Jobim wrote Wave too, and many others. When people here Desafanato, or Girl from Ipanema, they think Getz, not Jobim. Thats just the way it go's.

no ***** soulsax, jobim THEN getz.
stan just used to play it.

i don't get it anyway, what do you think when you listen sophisticated lady for example??? you think in duke or in who's playing?

that would be a good thread
when you listen a standard, you're listening the composer or the player?

to be continue.

hugs

[soulsax]

(ANSWER;- The player... ) This is earth, not heaven or somewhere in between. Your welcome to think your way. Understand that we don't all think the same. That does not make us wrong. Iv'e never been to heaven, but I've been on sotw 4 yrs, and am no strainger to what the masses think. Jazzophone said it very well. Thanks. Most people who would be hip to Desafinado would not even know who Jobim is. Right now if I was to go out and play Yakaty Sax to a crowd , few would think Boots. It would be the Benny Hill song. Often too, song writers don't compose much, but will give a recording artist lots of freedom to play it the way they hear it. A good example would be Straight to the Heart by uuuhhh who? David Sanborn? No, Marcus Miller. Few would think , "oh, theres a song by Marcus Miller". Not at all. They would think David Sanborn. Again, every ones got and opinion, and that ok. We get ur drift now very well. Hope you get mine. Case closed!...

[wiju]

thank god i can think in my own way, if not, i would be *****@@ all over the place like you did.
one year, two hours, three minutes, what diference does it make if you're going to treat me like that.
maybe for you is earth, for me is somewhere else, if i'm welcome to think in this way, you're been rough just for a $tupid comment i made looking around and reading some posts, my intention was just to help and not judge.

anyway, i get your point and it's interesting, i'm just asking because saw enough players doing standards and recognizing composers and writters after giving his own point of view from the tune.

hugs

[sattva]

Would it surprise you to know that Kenny G amuses himself by soloing endless choruses of Cherokee, Giant Steps, etc at rapid tempo, double time and through all 12 keys?

(me too :? )

[soulsax]

Yea a little sattva, where did you get that information from?

[Kenfen]

Wouldn't surprise me. Listen to his Jeff Lorber stuff. He can play, but he decided to make money. I'd not fault him for that. He's helped keep the sax at the forefront for better or worse.

I'm not saying I like his recent offerings or condoning the Louis Armstrong thing, but I'm just treating him like any other sax player....for what it's worth.

I think a lot of stuff that's been said about him, is record company hype, like "the greatest jazz musician" title. Well, I doubt Kenny takes that seriously.....

LOL

Kenfen

[totst]

Would it surprise you to know that Kenny G amuses himself by soloing endless choruses of Cherokee, Giant Steps, etc at rapid tempo, double time and through all 12 keys?

(me too :? )

Yeah sure I can do that too. But it's a whole different story with a rhythm section. And most of that is just hype...you figure you could hear that in one's playing if he could actually do it...Dont believe everything you hear.

Tots

[totst]

Kenny G" "My wife disliked him from the start. She liked branford marsalis on soprano because she toured with the Greatful :

Branford is good wine..G man is ****....

[TerraNova]

Well..... I'm gonna get slaughtered for this, but......

I LOVE KENNY G!!!

Call me crazy, but hey, I'm a girl...........? I guess I identify with his music... Bcoz I have so much trouble improvising, but I can do KG quite well.....!! :P

But it has just recently occurred to me, that now that I have started listening to Maceo Parker - I'm not too bad at improvising... Maybe it was just the music I was listening to :oops:

[soulsax]

Don't worry abt it sweetheart, no one,s going to slap you around about Kenny G. This thread has high and lows. You just happened to post at a low. Yea, Id dig to get some copys of big Ken blowing those songs in 12 keys. I open my woodsheds (every day) with a user friendly keyboard playing 48 bars in everykey. A good way to warm up. I can relate... 8)

[jazzbluescat]

Well..... I'm gonna get slaughtered for this, but......

I LOVE KENNY G!!!

Call me crazy, ....to :oops:

Hello Crazy. :twisted:

[michaelbaird]

But it has just recently occurred to me, that now that I have started listening to Maceo Parker - I'm not too bad at improvising... Maybe it was just the music I was listening to :oops:

You are right. Anyone can improvise to the right music. I love disco and funk.

[michaelbaird]

But it has just recently occurred to me, that now that I have started listening to Maceo Parker - I'm not too bad at improvising... Maybe it was just the music I was listening to :oops:

You are right. Anyone can improvise to the right music. I love disco, R&B, fusion. Dam-, if it's good music, it's all good.

[TerraNova]

haha... It's funny... For the 5 years that I was being taught under one teacher, he was trying to get me to improvise... And now, I am starting to... But SHHHHHHHH..... He doesnt know yet :wink:

I love just playing along to funky stuff... Does anyone know any funky sax playing for inspiration?

[michaelbaird]

David Sanborn, Michael Brecker, Grover Washington, etc to name a few. I even jam to Kenny G. tunes; SSHHH Don't tell anyone. If it is good music, it's all good. I like everything from Classical to Country

[Tenorsaxer]

The reason I don't like or appreciate Kenny G is because he doesent play with any soul. If you listen to any jazz players, they play with soul. My problem with Smooth Jazz is that there is no emotion at all. To me, it all seems like elevator music that isn't really worth listening to.

[michaelbaird]

Listen to Gerald Albright. He plays with alot of soul, so does Grover Washington.

[totst]

so do Dave Koz and Warren Hill. Lets not generalize.
But G man is the pits.....

[soulsax]

Pisspit sure does sell better than Thunderbird wine :lol: ............,,,,Yo tenor man, LOTS OF SOUL, in many smooth jazz sax players today! If you can't hear it, give it up.(the sax). Please, ,David S , Gerald A, Grover, Everette Harp, Kirk W, Walter B, Eric M. and on and on, dont have any soul? Tell the chicks that! Everette Harp, and Kirk Whalium , both from Houston are soulful enough to have recorded with Whitney H, Shina E, Tina M, Aneta B, and many others. These "very soulful" singers (w/$) hire the best. Who are some "soulful" players in your opinion??? Who is more "soulful" than Kirk Whalium?

[Tenorsaxer]

Ok maybe i have a different def. of smooth jazz than yall. David Sanborn does not play smooth jazz imo. Neither does Grover or Gerald really. Smooth Jazz (to me) is Kenny G, Late-era Spyro Gyra... stuff like that. To me, it all sounds the same...elevator music is the way it is best described. But guaranteed if I heard David S on an elevator i'd be rockin out. :D

[soulsax]

8) --Rock on. Sanborn will do that. Smooth jazz is saturated with sax players for sure. Most of them are damn good too. But the "sax saturation" is a little boring sometimes.

[jazzbluescat]

I don't consider Sanborn's music "smooth jazz" nor jazz, period. Don't get me wrong, he cooks, but it ain't jazz of any kind, IMO.

[Tenorsaxer]

Ya, I mean i'm a sax player and all but jesus there are like no other instruments other than saxes in SJ. That irks me.

[Kenfen]

In Atlanta, the SJ station there regularly tells the audience that the vocal selections they choose of the AC variety is jazz. I like a lot of them, but it's not Jazz. SJ is a creation of the radio people to market Pop Jazz, IMHO...nothing wrong with that, but not try and call non Jazz, jazz.

If it helps us get gigs, though, call it whatever you like. At the end of the day, it's music to me.

[tubbycub]

I don't consider Sanborn's music "smooth jazz" nor jazz, period. Don't get me wrong, he cooks, but it ain't jazz of any kind, IMO.

That is called Fusion Jazz, I think :?

[Tenorsaxer]

Smooth Jazz isn't jazz. end of story. Fusion on the other hand, is.

[benjamin1979]

:D yeah, kenny .. cheers .no matter how good and how bad r u. u r the most famous guy and the sax player all around the world knows u. u r the man. :oops:

[jazzbluescat]

Smooth Jazz isn't jazz. end of story. Fusion on the other hand, is.

That ain't true, 'cause if it were Sanborn'd be jazz, and he ain't. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Roger Aldridge]

....So, here I am in a small city in China last week (5 hrs south of Beijing by train). I go into a CD store looking for some recordings of traditional Chinese music. I didn't find much. It's mostly western and eastern pop stuff. I then look for some jazz recordings. Again, nothing to speak of. No Ellington, No Miles..... But, I saw 3 recordings of Kenny G. Not only that, during a visit to a jade store the background music sounded like it was played by a Kenny G clone. America has imported the Big Mac, KFC, and Kenny G to China.

[jrvinson45]

Like him or not, the choice is yours to listen or turn him off. Admittedly I turn him off most of the time, because the radio stations seem to home in on one or two of his songs. I just heard him playing tenor on a Christmas album, and for a moment I got fooled by the Country Western sound to thinking it was Boots Randolph or Hank Crawford... finally guessed it right though because he threw in a lick at the end that made me go "oh noooo it's Kenny Geeeeee." Perhaps Dave Koz said it best in a recent interview when he told the interviewer that smooth jazz just alienated the jazz fans, that maybe it should be called "contemporary instrumentalist." Good term for it. Not derogatory, just gives you the choice of listing to contemporary instrumentals... after all, you can't listen to smooth jazz, BECAUSE IT ISN'T JAZZ. I came back to the sax after almost 40 years, because I felt someone needed to stick up for the "real" sound. Turns out the real sound survives anyway... I'm so glad that the sound that was called "avant garde" in the 60's is pretty much limited to recordings made in the 60's. I pretty much listen to all the genres of sax players. The thing I don't care for is the replacement of sidemen by digital drummers and multi-track electronics. I appreciate when the jazz is a dialogue between the players... Sax players playing contemporary instrumentals with a large percentage of their sidemen being electronic are "playing with themselves" and will probably go blind. :oops:

As for the ethnic thing about Kenny G... Paul "Desmond" could probably have come up with a good response, but so what?

[Scudetto]

In my opinion Kenny G is a very good saxophonist, because he made his own style; he composed several beautiful melodies, he made soprano sax more famous. I respect Kenny G for this and i've his discography in mp3. Many of his melodies are not far from pop music, then i listen to him seldom.
I saw his concert from DVD 1989 San Diego. I liked very much his improvisation when he went through the crowd while playing.=)

[mycroftgsb]

Does Kenny G. refer to his music as "jazz", or do others? I simply cannot understand the hatred directed his way. He does what he does very well and it is very popular. If other "jazz" saxophonists don't enjoy his success, that is a commentary on the public's tastes, not Kenny's abilities.
I would personally classify Kenny more in the "Easy Listening" category than "jazz". But there is no doubt he plays a sax with gifted talent. His success speaks for itself, and the Kenny bashers also speak for themselves (jeolousy?).

[Vader]

Sanborn knew enough back in the day to call his music instrumental pop. It seems that others weren't quite as hip. I don't even know where that term came from, but it is a little wack. It is more pop than jazz, it's just instrumental.
I would love to hear who really goes on record of disliking or bashing "smooth jazz" and the people who play it. I'm willing to bet that most of them have done gigs that were contemporary in some way, and once you're doing that, sorry, but you're right at the gateway of smooth jazz, and how many big name people have done stuff over the past few years that was funky or at the very least contemporary? Quite a few.
Myself, I really have no use for smooth jazz(with a few exceptions), but I do do alot of stuff that's funky, and sometimes even gets pretty smooth. Whatever. I would never do a smooth jazz record, but i'll sure enough do a funk recording at some point.
I have no use for close mindedness. It's not the path to higher learning and self advancement. Sure, there's some stuff that I consider to be some watered down, all image, I wear leather pants when I play, come see my show and watch me play with my long hair but you'll never hear anything actually getting played BS, but whatever. It is what it is. It doesn't offend me. I just don't listen to it.
Simplicity is not bad. There's no badge of honor earned by losing people.......whether it be by overplaying, complex tunes...etc. There needs to be balance in music. There should be people pushing boundaries, pushing themselves on their instruments, but it is not the only way towards credibility or making good music.
Kenny takes a lot of hits because of jealousy. Don't hate the player, hate the game. But, I understand what pisses people off.......I mean, there's so many incredible musicians...people that are pushing things and are just full of creativity, that aren't getting, or may never get the mainstream success or recognition that he gets. But whatever, there's no changing what he's done. He was able to reach people. It doesn't matter that it was with some borderline musak. He reached people, and at the end of the day, that's one of the biggest (maybe the biggest) traits that makes playing music fun. Since the beginning of time cavemen beat on rocks to make music and they did it in groups. It was social. It still can be. For a lot of people, that's more fun than proving how killing they are.
It seems to me that you can either spend your time and energy hating on someone that does something you don't like, or you can just accept that it exists, and spend your time doing what you want to do.

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe when I can play as well as Kenny (or better) I might think differently, but I can't find anything about his laying to knock. Sometimes I think a more consistent tone from lower to higher register might be good, but then perhaps those notes that have a different sound add a bit of interest. There is a lot more to his playing than many people give him credit for.

I've noticed people here saying they don't like him as a person or that he's an idiot. Well, I could only join in that part of the discussion if and when I meet him, until then I have to thank him for helping to spread the saxophone word - I've known quite a few people who started out listening to kenny G then got into Trane, Bird, King Curtis, Ornette, Lee Allen and many other great saxophonists.

[Swampcabbage]

I've met Kenny on a few occasions and have had first hand knowledge of his development. There was a point where he made a deliberate attempt to obtain popularity over musical ability. It was a clear statement made back in the 80's. As a fellow Seattle native (and also a pupil of Johnny Jessen, a very popular saxophone teacher in Seattle) many of us were keenly aware of it. His days with the Jeff Lorber Fusion ("Wizard Island" and "Galaxian" in particular) showed much musical promise. he chose a different path though and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

He knows what to do in order to get around the horn when he needs to. I've heard many stories of serious jazz head going head on with him in some concerts (particularly with the University of Washington lab bands) where he came back the very same night loaded for bear on a tune he tripped over just that afternoon. You don't play for that long without knowing how to practice.

I may not be fond of his music, but, there are some positives. Most importantly. He has helped to keep the saxophone in a more popular standing (thus helping to employ many saxophonists on a pluthra of gigs).

He is not setting out to make an artistic statement of his generation or any others. He's just trying to get some bling. This is probably not in small part to seeing so many talented musicians in the area struggle so hard. One player he looked up to who was a phenomenal talent was Gerald Gibson. Life hasn't been easy for Gerald (but it looks like he may be doing okay now).

I digress. At one point I was studying with local legend, Jerome Grey (think of Charlie Banocos of the Northwest and you'll get an idea). Kenny came up as a topic of conversation, just out of the blue he said this: One thing that Kenny has done is develop his very own sound, you may or may not like it but if you turn on the radio and hear him you KNOW it's him. For better or worse there aren't a lot of guys who've done that.

He also has a pretty good sense of humor.

[ZenBen]

Does Kenny G. refer to his music as "jazz", or do others?


I don't spend much time thinking about Kenny G. Its an out of sight/ out of mind situation with me. However, the above quote leads me to my one beef about him. No, I have never heard him say that his music is jazz. But I have also not ever heard him correct anyone who says that his music is jazz. Its a minor point I know, but by not denying that he makes jazz music, he implies that he does. Maybe he should make the correction???

[edhara]

I remember distinctly in the late 80's when Kenny's album Duotones was released. I was in high school, and at the time wasn't even listening to any real jazz (and didn't until I hit college). They played "Songbird" all over *POP* radio. I remember being amazed that an *instrumentalist* could even make it onto KIIS 102.7 FM in Los Angeles. For this reason alone, I don't really consider him to be a jazz musician.

Even at the time, I believed Kenny was an example of someone who was in the right place at the right time with the right product and marketing. I also believe that he was one of the big catalysts for the commercialization of jazz, and people wanted more.

I don't think it's bad, it just IS.

[bniton]

Musicians must be careful when saying things about other musicians.

however, kenny g is no musician. He lacks many essential qualities that a real musician has.

lets start with the little good. He has a half-decent tone quality.

now to the bad.
first of all, I have found that while he does exhibit some expression in his playing, he completely lacks the energy that a normal musician has. In other words, he plays very lethargically.

second, he lacks a basic understanding of music itself. I heard once that mr. g only knows 5 major scales. furthermore, I have only heard him solo on pentatonic scales. also, his "compositions" are complete crap. even garage rock bands have made more authentic stuff than G's artificial cover songs and remakes.

third, he synthesizes his rhythm section. ok, by doing that he is not only disrespecting those musicians , but he is leaving them out of work. He is hurting his own industry! (which he has monopolized).

fourth, his music is completely unevolving or uninspiring. even other smooth jazz players such as Dave Koz seem to keep things fresher than G does. Honestly, Dave Koz is 100 times more credible than G and he manages to play the same genre of music. seriously, He is the only person I will shamelessly rip into. It is because of two reasons, the overdubbing of Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World", and the way he substitutes a live rhythm section with programed crap. If he hadn't done those two things, I would respect him just like the rest. but he has shamed music and for that I cannot sympathize.

[SuperDave]

Bniton,I dislike Kenny G's personality(as I perceive it though several interviews)and his 'muzak' and tone and musicality 'suck', but I'd bet money he knows more than 5 Maj scales, and he'd probably kick alot(most) of players butts here in a jazz cutting contest...

but I still can't stand him.

He came across as very arrogant in the several interviews...the Barnes and Noble one where he said Bird was called Bird, because he played so fast his read would chirp...hilarious...and how he could do all that Coltrane stuff....
And there was an interview where he said something to the effect that he was the only guy in Seattle who could read music and solo soulfully...
Years ago I had copies of interviews in my gigbag, but I handed them out at some jam sessions...his were so funny people thought they were spoofs!!

[hakukani]

I never minded Mr. Gorelick until he inserted himself into true master's recordings.

I think I'll just insert myself playing with Miles. Think anyone would mind, or think that I was being pretentious?

[zivley]

I'd say this video shows a different Kenny G, than what he has become nowadays with all the "synthetization" of the rythm section.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC87KSkTZkk

Personally I kinda like this sound he has on the tenor, sue me!
You can care or not for his sound, but you can't say he's not talented, and I'd call his tone quality more than half-decent, he's totally decent, and I think some of you guys are exagerating a bit about his lack of musical knowledge...
I'd like myself to have the capabilities he has on the tenor, and then use them to make a little different kind of music.

About being a millionaire by going with mainstream music, well, good for him.
I don't know any hardcore jazz musicians that can be so successfull.
The last time I saw David Grossman playing was on a mall, and that was a cellphone recording of someone that aparently knew who's playing (or not?)
Maybe I'm an ignorant, but I can't bear a full CD of someone like Dave Grossman, it gives me headache, too much demanding, I feel exhausted as if I were playing all that myself. That's why I can understand "regular" people that will prefer ten times to listen to Kenny G and not to Dave Grossman or even Gato Barbieri. Most people's musical education comes from their childhood, what did their parents teached them to listen, and if in your house you never heard about be bop or any other kind of hardcore jazz, you will find it harder to like in the future. But elevator music? you hear it everywhere, your ears are used to it, is a more easy to listen music, easy to follow, no need to think much to understand it, etc.
But, that's only my humble opinion...
Ziv

[Swampcabbage]

Do you mean Steve Grossman?

[hakukani]

...or Dave Liebman?

[zivley]

Yeah, OOPS, sorry about that, Steve Grossman and Dave Liebmann, both of the same "community" got me confused and I came up with a new brand name! heheh, I meant Steve Grossman, sorry... (or was it Steve Austin..?)

[itspman]

As a relative newcomer to these boards I still find it incredible the amount of hatetred this guy gets.

He is attacked personaly (and how many of you have actually met him?)

He is put down for playing songs in a style that he likes to play, his way (dosent every sax player do that? - Play songs they like in their style) Just because this style may not appeal to everybody, dosent make it any less important - and less face it Coltrane is not everybodies cup of tea, he played songs he liked in his style - but he is not constantly put down!

You talk about the fact that his music should not be called Jazz, Why not - isint Jazz about personal expression, feeling the mood and portraying that through notes, articulation, dynamics etc - well isint that what his music does he takes a tune puts his expression, articulation, dynamics on it to produce his music his way? Just because he isint improvisining over chord changes at one million miles an hour - he is frowned upon.

Now Im not actually a fan of his, I like his takes on christmas tunes and feel they sum up the spirit of christmas but his other albums I feel are a little bland for me, but for the same token Im not a fan of Coltrane, I find his music all a little busy, and some times a little deviod of melody - but I believe that are both good at what thay do (if I like it or not) you can't take that away from them.

So my point is that this Kenny G bashing is all a little childish, and is what one would expect in the playground (my dad's car is better than yours) type of thing.

Just except that there will be 1000's of people that like Kenny's music and the other smooth jazz players, 1000's who will like Coltrane and the other cats
and hopefully some that will cross both boundries and appricate the music whatever style for what it is.

[zivley]

Hey, Adrian, shouldn't your first song in your soundclick page be called "Jazz BALD Test" instead of ballad?

[itspman]

Hey, Adrian, shouldn't your first song in your soundclick page be called "Jazz BALD Test" instead of ballad?

Hey Zivley - now thats funny lol

[jazzsax86]

This is why I think KG is so unliked by jazz greats (I don't know the site anymore, but Pat Metheny tears him apart very intellectually - plus some anger, haha).

The big thing is when he overdubbed himself over top of Louis Armstrong's "What A Wonderful World." He didn't just play the song, he played over top of Louis. He obviously didn't do justice to the recording (lots of pentatonic stuff and some tuning sharpness). Anyhow, many see it as very disrepectful to disgrace the recording of someone as influential as Armstrong.

Another thing is that he had once claimed to have invented circular breathing.. To be honest, I'm not sure if he did or not, but the diggery doo (sorry for bad spelling - pronounced dijery doo) uses circular breathing, and they have been around in Australia for many many, MANY years.

The last thing is that Kenny G CD's are often sold as "jazz." If you listen to him, you can tell he is just playing a lot of pentatonic stuff with some blues in there somewhere. I don't listen to him at all, so this is all second hand from some people I trust.

Regaurdless, I don't dig his stuff, but for if you do, good for you.

[jazzsax86]

Here's Matheny's thing by the way:

http://www.saxon.com/stephen/pat-story.htm

[hakukani]

I have three categories of music-good music, harmless music, and harmful music.

Mr. Gorelick used to be in my 'harmless' category. When he played that crap over Pops, I changed it to the 'harmful' category. When folks think he is on the level with Louis Armstrong, that's harmful to the art form.

I have met him, when I worked the backline as a stagehand at one of his concerts. Nice enough fellow (which means he wasn't a total *****).

[RootyTootoot]

I'm afraid i find the Metheny interview a bit over the top. I mean, how can anyone possibly think that a recording by Kenny G could dent Armstrong's reputation in any way? It's like saying Mozart gets a bad rep if Britney attempts an aria out of "the Marriage of Figaro."

[hakukani]

It's like saying Mozart gets a bad rep if Britney attempts an aria out of "the Marriage of Figaro."

Geez, I REALLY didn't need that image!:shock:

[zivley]

Another thing is that he had once claimed to have invented circular breathing.. To be honest, I'm not sure if he did or not, but the diggery doo (sorry for bad spelling - pronounced dijery doo) uses circular breathing, and they have been around in Australia for many many, MANY years.
You're right, the aborigens in what was called later Australia were able to use circular breathing to play the Digderidoo, I don't know who was first, but I know there are a lot of ancient reed instruments all over the world that the need of circular breathing is inevitable because of the amount of air it takes to make it play and also because those genres of local music tend to be in a long non-stopping run. I've seen myself a bedouin here playing a two parallel bamboo canes flute where the reed is part of the same cane, one of the pipes has a constant base note and in the other one are the holes that play the melody. it requires a load of lungs and airfull cheecks (such as Dizzy used to blow) and it sounds similar in concept to the Scottish Bagpipes. This bedouin told me the circulating breathing is something they pass over from father to child for over who knows how many years.
Anyway, Kenny G may be the first "official" sax player that uses and claims to use it, I've heard of some bari players that maybe use the technique aswell, that can definately help on the long runs... Anyway, I must say I tried to learn that from that bedouin, together with another guy that masters the digderidoo, they both gave me tips on how to do it, where to start from, a funny exercise with a straw in a glass of water, and I can tell you, it's darn hard to do it, so, at least Kenny does have some qualities.
Yet, I don't see why a sax player will want to hold a single note for 42 minutes... Just to show off the world you're the best?
I've seen a guy playing the digderidoo on street for two hours without stopping, but at least he was making some interesting variations, not just holding one same note all the way.

[RootyTootoot]

Anyway, Kenny G may be the first "official" sax player that uses and claims to use it,


Rahsaan Roland Kirk certainly used circular breathing and i'm sure there are others. :)

[hakukani]

Well-known jazz players known for circular breathing :

Clark Terry (trumpet/fluegelhorn)
Roland Kirk (multi-instrumental)
Harry Carney (bari sax in Elliington's band)
Roscoe Mitchell (sax)

I'm sure there's a ton more.

[Martinman]

Well-known jazz players known for circular breathing :

Clark Terry (trumpet/fluegelhorn)
Roland Kirk (multi-instrumental)
Harry Carney (bari sax in Elliington's band)
Roscoe Mitchell (sax)

I'm sure there's a ton more.


Grover Washington Junior, although he was really more of a contemporary of Kenny G.

[tjontheroad]

For all you Gorelick fans...

The G man is on CBS Sunday morning today with an interview. Oh boy ;)

[jamesg]

Well-known jazz players known for circular breathing :

Clark Terry (trumpet/fluegelhorn)
Roland Kirk (multi-instrumental)
Harry Carney (bari sax in Elliington's band)
Roscoe Mitchell (sax)

I'm sure there's a ton more.


Check out Wynton playing Cherokee on youtube. There are at least 2 versions, but he circular breathes on both while playing very high and very fast, its rather amazing.



Anyways, among the many problems with Kenny G, I dislike that casual/uninformed fans confuse him with Kenny Garrett (just by name).

Garrett is a monster!

[Durand]

I never thought I'd post anything on this topic, but can't resist relating an interesting experience I had the other night. I turned my car radio on late at night coming home from a gig and heard Coltrane's familiar soprano playing "My Favorite Things." Then it ended mid-phrase and a talk show host came on. His first statement was "I can't believe my producer is playing Kenny G; I thought she was hipper than that." I almost swerved off the road. I listened for awhile to see if anyone would call in to correct him, but no one did.

Perhaps this is why so many resent Kenny G. Until this experience, I never gave him a second thought. Now I realize that the soprano sax is no longer identified with Coltrane or Sidney Bechet, but instead with Kenny G. I don't really blame Kenny G., I tend to agree with gary that it is the society we live in. Just be glad that you (all of you on this forum) are among the minority of cats with the ability to tell the difference between Coltrane & Kenny G.

I like both Kenny G and Trane. Sincerely I don't like too much Trane sound. I love music, not just jazz. I love sax, and sax was made to all kind of music.

[spartacus]

Convince me there is no such thing as reincarnation from the dead and buried

[Durand]

wut???

[milomo]

George Coleman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6VC_huibE) circular breathes as well.

[jrvinson45]

I saw a segment on BETJ where Kenny G. was interviewed, and he talked about the "Wonderful World" recording over Louis Armstrong. The arrangement and editing were by David Foster, and The Gman knew it was going to be controversial from the beginning. Before the recording even hit the market, he dedicated the proceeds to school music programs and kicked it off by donating (as I recall) $250,000 out of pocket to start off the fund to help the schools in Washington (D.C.?) before the record sold it's first copy. Mr. Matheny is welcome to his own opinion; however, I hope KG overdubs something over one of his works when he's departed... I'd contribute to that fund. As far as the circular breathing thing goes, it was a publicity thing done for the Guiness Book of Records... seems to be working.

[gary]

Convince me there is no such thing as reincarnation from the dead and buried

You HAVE to believe there is no such thing. Otherwise, the Gster will be commmmmiiiing baaaaaaaack!

[Durand]

So you don't like Kenny G guys?
Only 15 pages dedicated to him? LOL

[jrvinson45]

So you don't like Kenny G guys?
Only 15 pages dedicated to him? LOL

Apparently you think this is the ONLY Kenny G. Thread.:D

[gary]

Apparently you think this is the ONLY Kenny G. Thread.:D

Right! Anyone wanting to comment further on Kenny G should do a search.
See if there's anything that hasn't already been said.
If you think there is, post it - then ask yourself if anyone cares. :twisted:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Durand]

Apparently you think this is the ONLY Kenny G. Thread.:D

Is there more??
Serioulsy, I like his tone, even he is not a pure jazzist, I have learned something from him.

[Durand]

Right! Anyone wanting to comment further on Kenny G should do a search.
See if there's anything that hasn't already been said.
If you think there is, post it - then ask yourself if anyone cares. :twisted:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

Is this a restriction? :shock:

[gary]

Is this a restriction?
LOL. No Durand, you are free to post whatever you want. I have no authority. :angel4:

[Martinman]

Anybody else think that a mod should just merge all existing Kenny G threads into one and give him his own separate section?

[Durand]

LOL. No Durand, you are free to post whatever you want. I have no authority. :angel4:


Ok, that's nice

[spartacus]

. I have no authority. :angel4:

Said the keeper of Pandora's box and a stable full of dead horse threads.

[gary]

Said the keeper of Pandora's box...

Hey. If you saw Pandora, you'd be keeping her box, too. :albino:

[hakukani]

Hey. If you saw Pandora, you'd be keeping her box, too. :albino:

I knew a Pan Dora. She was a steel drum player. Never saw a box.

[jrvinson45]

I knew a Pan Dora. She was a steel drum player. Never saw a box.

Close. Missed by THAT much, chief.

[bstrom]

Sorry to revive this thread but I just have to say that KG is basically a pop, easy listening performer that is an average saxophone player, not terrible, not especially good. His sound on soprano is sickening to me after hearing Joe viola, Coltrane, Wayne, etc but it seems to appeal to middle age women and the musically uneducated and maybe some people that like that kind of thing. Meanwhile he is laughing all the way to the bank and thats America, $= success. The only really bad thing he has done other than totally selling out, and what Mr. Methany was really objecting to was the overdub on Lewis Armstrong's popular tune. Mr. Gorelick should stay away from any remote association with the jazz greats as he is just not in that category and the type of material and his style of playing would be a disservice to the memory of the Jazz greats.

[tenorskateboard]

The only really bad thing he has done other than totally selling out, and what Mr. Methany was really objecting to was the overdub on Lewis Armstrong's popular tune. Mr. Gorelick should stay away from any remote association with the jazz greats as he is just not in that category and the type of material and his style of playing would be a disservice to the memory of the Jazz greats.

Yea he doesn't even deserve to have the rights to touch that music and put his name on it. I also admit, that if it weren't for him(when I started about 12 years ago), I wouldn't be HERE on sotb today, while discovering the broad spectrum of Jazz. Heck, I finally got a hint of Acid Jazz(Nu-Jazz) the other day, and from what I remember, it's like brasswinds+looptracks/sample sounds from a computer. But hey, it doesn't sound half bad!

But really the point I'm trying to make...well I already made it, EXCEPT when my friend Vann Burchfield officially broke the world record for the longest note, being that him and Kenny were "friends," he hasn't kept in touch with him since. What does that tell you? I believe it's pretty much pointless to break the old record on that because it's "Circular breathing." But either way, the guy is very closed minded from what Vann told me..And Vann, if you are reading this, correct me on the statements I just made, I'm only going by what I remember. ha.

[Lee Mason]

KCP..You have the best explanation, I agree wholeheartily! Lee

[Xenion]

...His sound on soprano is sickening to me after hearing Joe viola, Coltrane, Wayne, etc...


Ofcourse this is a matter of taste but I think he has a nice sound. Coltrane's sound is the sickening (e.g. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=I_n-gRS_wdI) and it's not due to low quality recording...

I don't understand why people always have to express their hate towards Kenny G. I only "discovered" him recently but I do like his playing and I'm a 18 heterosexual guy.

I just downloaded some music of him and in the download-comments there were a lot of negative ones. What's the use? If you don't like it don't download it and let the people that do like the music enjoy it?

[VannB]

Hello Tenorskateboard. It has been a long time my friend. I have not toured up in your neck of the woods in a while. I am glad to hear you are doing well. This is Vann Burchfield. Check out the new site at www.vannburchfield.com.
I wanted to respond to the KennyG statments you made. When I set the new Guinness Record for Circular Breathing February 17 2000. I had met KennyG and he had even written me in a letter. He had also met me back stage and autographed on of my horns. After Guinness accepted my record they closed the catagory for Circular Breathing (due to health concerns). This meant that neither I or KennyG nor anyone else could submit an attempt anymore. I know that of June 2008 they still have the catagory closed. This is not to say they wont open it back up in the future. They very well may. I know KennyG stated this year on a interview in Seattle Washington that he wanted to try again to hold the World Record. Guinness may or may not let him. Kenny is a very determined man. He usually does what he sets in his mind out to do. So not beiing able to set a new record through Guinness may contribute to his not responding to me anymore. I'm sure he is still a great guy. Anyway, I wanted to add my two cents.

[martysax]

Finally, it's out. Vanny B beats Kenny G!:D

[gary]

Finally, it's out. Vanny B beats Kenny G!:D

Fap!


..

[martysax]

Fap!


..

Wow! How did you do that!

[kerry]

While I find his music a little boring and repetitive, he is a good player. I dont think many people would argue that. The man just needs to explore some new music. Its been the same for 25+years

[Tobias]

There are still worse things than kenny G on the planet of Saxophone.
Klick at your own risk:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SVb9MaGwnF0&feature=related

[kerry]

There are still worse things than kenny G on the planet of Saxophone.
Klick at your own risk:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SVb9MaGwnF0&feature=related

Was that the love boat cast playing?

[Tobias]

This is Captain Cook with his singing saxophones.
He is quite popular at grannys.

[gary]

There are still worse things than kenny G on the planet of Saxophone.
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SVb9MaGwnF0&feature=related

Kind'a makes one appreciate Billy Vaughn.

. . . and I didn't even think that was possible. :shock:

[Xanax]

And what about this album : Stefano DI BATTISTA - Round About Roma.You can label this as smooth jazz, this is a great album and the mood is evidently somooth like a movie soundtrack but much more rich then kenny g simplistic view.

[elviento]

Sax =/= jazz. KG is obviously not a jazz player but so what?

KG is like someone who can make a really good burger (as opposed to expensive French quisine). Many people like his burgers and he made a bunch of money from it. You can debate all you want whether he is a good chef or not.

The root of the fact why ppl here hate him, is simply we all want to be perceived as different, hardcore, and simply put, "better", than others.

Though I am a sax noob, I am an experienced cyclist. On bike forums, you often see ppl disparaging state of the art high end bikes (big name manufacturer, advance material like Carbon fiber/Megnesium, etc., sponsoring top pro teams, with sophisticated windtunnel testing and innovative designs). Instead they tout bikes from one-man shops who use 30-yr old technologies to build bikes that have a waiting period of 2-4 years. Some of these technologically outdated bikes could easily cost over $5K. These ppl call such bikes having "souls" and call themselves "real cyclists".

Here it's no different. If KG wasn't widely popular, then fewer people here would hate him. In fact, I wonder how many people here consider themselves better saxophonists than him.

I admit his music tends to mostly fall into one style, but not without merits. Maybe he made a lot of money but who are we to say he doesn't deserve it? Certainly not any less than the investment bankers who repackaged crappy mortgage assets and made millions.






Yea he doesn't even deserve to have the rights to touch that music and put his name on it.

[ismail]

Sax =/= jazz. KG is obviously not a jazz player but so what?

KG is like someone who can make a really good burger (as opposed to expensive French quisine). Many people like his burgers and he made a bunch of money from it. You can debate all you want whether he is a good chef or not.

Here it's no different. If KG wasn't widely popular, then fewer people here would hate him. In fact, I wonder how many people here consider themselves better saxophonists than him.


Well, when I hear him, it's rather like biting into a cheap microwave burger than into one of those I make! Sorry, but I like good burgers (as far as a European ever gets to taste one) and so I don't like the analogy.

And, by the way, KG is by NO MEANS popular, here. Almost nobody knows him. He tastes the same to me, though...

[KevinSax]

Kenny G isnt popular? 12 million records sold in the US for Breathless alone. I dunno. But I guess someone must like him. I do. nice tone quality, especially on the tenor and quite solid on alto, but he rarely plays it. I can understand that his soprano sound is a tad grating. But he sounds good, put your all's ego aside on who plays better this and that. Most of the people who listened to G listened to one song, condemned it, or just or going along with everyone else who hates him. And it frustrates me that we don't support our saxophone playing brother, who represents our instruments to more people than anyone else has.

[Durand]

Kenny G isnt popular? 12 million records sold in the US for Breathless alone. I dunno. But I guess someone must like him. I do. nice tone quality, especially on the tenor and quite solid on alto, but he rarely plays it. I can understand that his soprano sound is a tad grating. But he sounds good, put your all's ego aside on who plays better this and that. Most of the people who listened to G listened to one song, condemned it, or just or going along with everyone else who hates him. And it frustrates me that we don't support our saxophone playing brother, who represents our instruments to more people than anyone else has.

I totally agree with you

[Nathan Bellott]

hey he has the world record for the longest sustained note, its like 48 minutes...

[gary]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b388/DrJazz_/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[Grumps]

It must be the holiday music that got this going again.

I don't know about Kenny = Jazz, but Kenny x Christmas = $$$$$

[Dan Forshaw]

Gary that's cheered me up on a cold December afternoon!

[gary]

Gary that's cheered me up on a cold December afternoon!

I live to serve. :notworth:


:D

[tenorskateboard]

Anyway, I wanted to add my two cents.

Yeah man I'm sorry for completely misunderstanding. I do feel pretty bad for being a basher against the individual, because he may not receive the respect among the Jazz musicians/fans, he still does what he does, makes a living at it, and even though most of us agree he went a bit too far in dubbing Louis Armstrong with himself in a song, what's done is done. I'm just trying to break off habits picked up by trying to emulate Kenny when I first starting playing(I didn't know much about Jazz at the time), but if it weren't for him and a couple of others, I wouldn't have discovered the greats, I wouldn't be in private lessons, pursuing to be good at it, and to be doing it beacuse the Lord has given me the gift....it was just me discovering it one way or another down the road.

Please forgive me for all that I have said, if any of it was wrong or offensive.

[RootyTootoot]

hey he has the world record for the longest sustained note, its like 48 minutes...

And some poor sod had to stand there all that time with a stopwatch!!

[Wilbur Weltklang]

I always assumed K.G. was a synth player...the soprano sax simply a prop for credibility.

hey he has the world record for the longest sustained note, its like 48 minutes...

Probably left his nose resting upon the keyboard whilst reading the paper? :)

[renegade]

Irrespective of whether or not Kenny G is a good saxophonist, the fact is that he is very popular. In my country, the Philippines, when people come to know that you play saxophone whether as an amateur or a professional, they always associate you with Kenny G, often requesting that you play his tunes.

[Rocky Gordon]

He has good sound on all his horns. And you can hear him riffing sometimes on a fadeout like a lot of cats do. It's just the monotony of his lines on most of his cuts, which are a lot of diatonic variations on two changes. But again, a lot of smooth jazz dudes do that as well.

[jicaino]

Irrespective of whether or not Kenny G is a good saxophonist, the fact is that he is very popular. In my country, the Philippines, when people come to know that you play saxophone whether as an amateur or a professional, they always associate you with Kenny G, often requesting that you play his tunes.

I understand your nickname now. I'd also be a renegade if people will stump over my sensitivity and aesthetical concepts associating my playing with Nekky G's :TGNCHK::D :roll: :badgrin:

[A Little Sax]

Actually, he sounds a heck of a lot better than I ever will. I don't like his music, but who says he sold out. Maybe shallow elevator music was what he always wanted to play. Different strokes.

Kenny G is to jazz, what Mr. T is to jazz. :P

As a guy partly Jewish, I am allowed to say this, any guy 100% Jewish by blood, who comes out with a Christmas CD, is obviously selling out. It is more about the fame and marketing and buck to Kenny, not the music. Thus, his music never goes to the "next level" but remains the same elevator music today, yesterday, and forever. Sure, he has good tone quality, good for him. He is rich, good for him. But his love for playing, is far different from most sax players.

[Finnerski]

See post #329.:)

[Durand]

Kenny G...
the most mentioned saxophonist in SOTW...

[spartacus]

I thought the horse was buried :?

[Pete Thomas]

I thought the horse was buried :?

Why should that stop him (or her) being flogged?

[ratracer]

I thought the horse was buried :?

Haven't you seen Grumps new avatar, the one that says beware of zombies?

This is a "zombie" topic.

[bari_sax_diva]

Somebody get a sharpened wooden stake....

[nj2009]

As a guitarist for the most part of my life I always felt that George Benson sold out and it was painful to watch him launching recording after recording, selling millions and not able to enjoy any of them! It was almost like one of my idols stopped recording or performing, just like when the Beatles broke up.... for hard core fans it is really difficult to accept it. One guy I respect quite a lot was the pianist Glen Gold for the fact that he refused to sell out and stopped playing in public in the middle of a concert. I'm an idealist but in the end I cannot judge their decisions since I'm not in their shoes.

As for Kenny G, his music puts me to sleep. But then again, I never really game myself a chance to listen to him other than when his music forces itself into my radio or tv. Perhaps one of these days I'll download some of his work to give it a good try. Perhaps it will surprise me, who knows! Any suggestions?

[Rex Tremende]

Can I just say Kenny G's music sucks? Can I say that? Does anyone mind, really? It's just my opinion, but really, his music sucks. I'm sure he's a nice guy.

[crazydaisydoo]

As a guitarist for the most part of my life I always felt that George Benson sold out and it was painful to watch him launching recording after recording, selling millions and not able to enjoy any of them! It was almost like one of my idols stopped recording or performing, just like when the Beatles broke up.... for hard core fans it is really difficult to accept it. One guy I respect quite a lot was the pianist Glen Gold for the fact that he refused to sell out and stopped playing in public in the middle of a concert. I'm an idealist but in the end I cannot judge their decisions since I'm not in their shoes.

As for Kenny G, his music puts me to sleep. But then again, I never really game myself a chance to listen to him other than when his music forces itself into my radio or tv. Perhaps one of these days I'll download some of his work to give it a good try. Perhaps it will surprise me, who knows! Any suggestions?

Hmmm, me too on the guitar front, I too was a big fan of George Benson, but there was always an inherent quality in his work, even the pop stuff. I've spent many a happy hour playing along to Breezin'. I don't think you can really compare his level of musicianship with the Geester, even Mr G himself happily admits that he is not technically great. George Benson is admired by his "serious jazz" peers, albeit for his earlier work. It is "shame" he started to sing, but then again it brought jazz guitar to a whole new audience. Bit like Wes with his Creed Taylor stuff, but I am sure his wife and kids enjoyed and needed the money after his death, so fair play to him.

I have got nothing against Mr G, and I am sure he doesn't give a stuff what I think anyway, but I am wary of comparing him to George Benson, thats a whole different level of quality IMHO.....

[Bigtone]

I think the problem that some of us jazz saxophonists have with Kenny G is that he is talked about in that context. I am not aware that he has ever played jazz, or claimed to for that matter. My understanding is that he got his start in the biz playing behind Barry White, so I can't say he really qualifies has having sold out. As far as I know, he has never played anything closer to jazz than instrumental R&B-flavored pop. Jazz saxophonists that sell out usually cause other players to express sadness over the loss of a creative force. Often I will be introduced to someone as a 'jazz saxophone player,' only to have my new acquaintance say something like; "You mean like Kenny G?" When I respond with something like; "No more along the lines of Sonny Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Wayne Shorter..." I am met with blank stares and shoulder shrugs. Personally, I don't like it when people that have shaped what we do and impacted the culture in profound ways don't get their due, nor do I like it when art and entertainment are mistaken for each other. If you are an "artist," you are expressing yourself through a craft, thus both the craft and the artist continually evolve. An artist is the driving force behind the product that results. Entertainment is based in marketing and then dumbed-down to gain the widest possible accessibility. If you are an entertainer, you are not the driving force behind the product you are presented to be, the market, your manager, your producer, whoever else owns a piece of you... these are the driving forces behind that product and your best bet is to simply do as they say. That is not the path followed by the likes of Sonny, Trane, Duke, Miles, Mingus, etc. I would rather see recognition for and discussion about those that have one foot firmly rooted in the innovations and traditions of the past while seeking to advance and expand the music. I would much rather see discussions about jazz saxophone players of today be regarding people like Branford Marsalis, Joe Lovano, Seamus Blake, Wayne Escoffery, Chris Potter, Marcus Strickland, Greg Osby, Gary Thomas, Eric Alexander, Miguel Zenon... just for starters. Rather than threads about Kenny G, how about the under-recognized, under-recording living masters like George Coleman.

[nj2009]

Hmmm, me too on the guitar front, I too was a big fan of George Benson, but there was always an inherent quality in his work, even the pop stuff. I've spent many a happy hour playing along to Breezin'. I don't think you can really compare his level of musicianship with the Geester, even Mr G

I didn't mean to compare them. It is true that George Benson always kept an inherent quality in his work and yes, Breesin is a great album and I've got my money's worth many times over. It is not GB's problem, the problem is mine. But than again, he has recorded enough great work to last me a lifetime. I still love the man! :D As for KG, like I said, I don't know him enough to have an opinion.

[tenorskateboard]

As a guitarist for the most part of my life I always felt that George Benson sold out and it was painful to watch him launching recording after recording, selling millions and not able to enjoy any of them! It was almost like one of my idols stopped recording or performing, just like when the Beatles broke up.... for hard core fans it is really difficult to accept it. One guy I respect quite a lot was the pianist Glen Gold for the fact that he refused to sell out and stopped playing in public in the middle of a concert. I'm an idealist but in the end I cannot judge their decisions since I'm not in their shoes.

As for Kenny G, his music puts me to sleep. But then again, I never really game myself a chance to listen to him other than when his music forces itself into my radio or tv. Perhaps one of these days I'll download some of his work to give it a good try. Perhaps it will surprise me, who knows! Any suggestions?

I don't see how you fall asleep to it...personally it's like nails to a chalkboard....but that's just me..

Allow me to clarify....his sound isn't bad on alto and tenor....soprano is a different story. I will admit that he was one of the reasons I wanted to learn saxophone. I don't mean to sound like I'm hating on him, but personally his sound on the soprano is what I don't like. Am I suppose to? Nope. We all have our opinions, this time I could have kept to myself...blah I never realize this stuff until after a few days...haha

[barrett tsuji]

Adrianw - thankyou.
Saved me a lot of typing.
It simply comes down to jealousy.
Sums it up very well.

No it comes down to annoyance. Every serious sax player cringes when you say that you play the saxophone and immediately they mention: oh you mean like kenny g or lisa simpson...:x

[jazzsax86]

I bet most people dont even take the time to really read this whole thread, haha, so a lot of what people say is just floating off into cyperspace...

Anyways, I am a HUGE fan of Michael Brecker. Apparently, Mike was seen backstage defending Kenny G. That caught me off gaurd, as I am definitely a G-Basher. When it comes to human decency however, Mike hit the nail on the head. I don't listen to his music, but I've decided not to hate (some people litterally HATE him) a man I've never met. I hope all the haters aren't ruining the man's life.

That being said, I need to go listen to Brecker. Peace.

[NyNe143]

Here you go ...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/NyNe28/1992LincolnMemorialWelcomeShowforCl.jpg

[CKsmallville]

That picture is awesome! Ha ha! That's at Clinton's inaugural thing, right? I think that's the back of Kirk Whalum's head. Check out Tom Scott on sopranino!

[michaelbaird]

What a great picture

[NyNe143]

That picture is awesome! Ha ha! That's at Clinton's inaugural thing, right? I think that's the back of Kirk Whalum's head. Check out Tom Scott on sopranino!

The Caption ...

'January 20, 1992
Lincoln Memorial
Quincy Jones show to welcome the new President Bill Clinton
Dave Sanborn, Kenny G, Gerald Albright, Mike Brecker and Tom Scott rehearsing "arkansa traveler and Heartbreak Hotel".'

[jrvinson45]

Is that Kenny's "ride" in the right corner?

[gary]

Is that Kenny's "ride" in the right corner?

:D Good one.

[barrett tsuji]

A saxophonist is stuck in a room with Adolf Hitler and Kenny G. He has a gun but only two bullets so what does he do...

HE SHOOTS KENNY G TWICE!!!