Some Grassi serial numbers

[milandro]

As I promised long ago, I was going to get some information on the Grassi serial numbers. They are from a reliable source.

Unfortunately the information is rather sketchy for both the beginning and the end of the company's production lifespan so I will quote here only the SN upon which there is relative but sufficient certainty.

As it always happens these SN charts are never absolutes so one can always think that if an item was produced at a certain date it might have been sold even several months after.

Apparently Grassi started somewhere in 1960 or thereabouts with a SN of 1000 (unconfirmed SN) so SN from 1000 until 27395 mark the period between 1960 to 1974.


from 27395 to 30266 1974 / 1975

from 30267 to 34880 1976

from 34881 tol 37478 1977

from 37479 to 39871 1978

from 39872 to 41835 1979

from 41836 to 43836 1980

from 43837 to 45619 1981

from 45620 to 47344 1982

during these following years these SN are also an estimation due to a less than regular sales pattern

from 47345 to 53420 1983 / 84 / 85 / 86

from 53421 to 60885 1987 / 88 / 89 / 90

from 60886 to 65645 1990 / 91 / 92 / 93 / 94

[rhysonsax]

So my Grassi Prestige alto (from eBay UK) which is #44,352 is from 1981. Older than I guessed, but maybe it hasn't seen much action. It's nice looking and plays pretty well.

Thanks for the list

Rhys

[milandro]

Cheers man, don't forget that some of these horns could have been laying around in shops for quite some time before they were sold........my alto is from 1976 and looks very new indeed.

[Ken]

Thanks for that list! So my soprano bought used in '85 is from 1977 which is a bit older than I would have guessed ('80).

[Pharmasax]

milandro:

Thank you for the useful information!

[milandro]

actually, to be absolutely fair, our thanks should go to my reliable but incognito source

Thank you man! ;) :)

[sonofjabba]

Thanks Now I can Date My Bari! Mine is SN 222XX Figuring like 1972-73 ish. From Your Numbers anyway. My Buddy I bought it From thought it was late 70's... Kinda Close.

Low Bb with the Jade Rollers.

Shame I'm only using it for Mummering... Such a Choice Horn..


:treble: <--- Bari & Bugles

:bass: <--- TUBA

[milandro]

the serial numbers come from an absolutely precise source but he told me that many horns were produced at a certain date and sold at a later date from either the shops or the company, this would have been particularly true of Baritones. I see your baritone's neck hasn't got the bands or rings that mine has, making it sure that my neck was , at some stage made longer, could you please measure it for me? BY the way you write in your signature Ida & Maria but that is incorrect. Ida Maria Grassi (one person ) is (she is still alive) the last owner of the true Grassi factory even though they sold the name to a company which is currently importing Asian Saxophones.

[SearjeantSax]

Ida Maria Grassi (one person ) is (she is still alive) the last owner of the true Grassi factory even though they sold the name to a company which is currently importing Asian Saxophones.

does the factory still produce horns? that could make a nice holiday to italy :)

[milandro]

no, they don't, the current Grassi " production "is just baking on the cachet which an Italian well known name in the business can give to Asian horns.

The factory which Grassi had in Quarna sotto (the same town in the mountains above the Orta lake where Rampone and Cazzani makes their horns) is closed and ,as far as I know, i completely inactive but the premises should still contain parts and probably some machines.

[sonofjabba]

I'm not near my Bari But I'll Measure it up when I get home.

[milandro]

thank you! ;)

[sonofjabba]

Underside (Bottom) is 7-7/8 inches the Top 9-3/8 inches.

Hope this Helps you out
PJ

[milandro]

thanks , could you repeat the measurement in cm.......sorry that I didn't say it in the first place......I am surprised that you are not metric in Spain

[sonofjabba]

thanks , could you repeat the measurement in cm.......sorry that I didn't say it in the first place......I am surprised that you are not metric in Spain

I don't have any metric Tape Measures. And I'm in the United States, reason I'm still standard.. Sorry.

[milandro]

ooooooops andalusia Pennsylvania !

[rhysonsax]

Just to help out - UK still uses both inches and metric.....

7 7/8 inches = 200.0 mm

9 3/8 inches = 238.1 mm

Rhys

[milandro]

cheers! I've lost touch with Imperial measures , I was more familiar with them when I lived and studied in England :)

[PNiem]

I probably have a Grassi alt saxophone. I have bought this one some years ago with a case with the Ida Maria Grassi logo on it. However I can not find the logo on the sax. I did find a serial number: 6059A. What is the letter A at the end of the SN? Could this be a Grassi? According to the serial number list, this one has been produced between 1960 and 1974.

[milandro]

if it has a letter in the serialnumber it is not a Grassi. Most probably it is a Orsi, put some pictures up for positive ID

[PNiem]

These are some photos of my sax:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KpxDZJgFxTvOFha2U3erRg?feat=directlink

Hope someone can identify it.

thanks

[milandro]

These are some photos of my sax:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KpxDZJgFxTvOFha2U3erRg?feat=directlink

Hope someone can identify it.

thanks

I can see one not too revealing picture of a VITO

[milandro]

look it up here

http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_ser_nos.htm

since it says VITO in big block letters on the bell, it is a Vito (!) from the serial number it is a Kenosha assembled horn made in the Seventies

On that site you can also find all you possibly need to know about VITO horns

[PNiem]

Thanks a lot. I can see the letters myself, but I didn't new the recognise it as the manufacturer name.

[milandro]

yeah those big V I T O (the name of VITO Pascucci) letters can be really difficult to see as a brand because they are a bit undistinct , any way , now you know anything you want to know about your horn, they good and underrated , htey can ve acquired very often for very little money. Of course you have the special series of Vito's with the leblanc system mechanics but those are a different sort of animal. I have seen special engravings on some special Vitos that were stunning.

[simso]

Hey milando, thanks for the info

I was just having a poke around the site when I saw this topic. Dissapointed however, I have a Grassi Tenor with a S/No 16XX, thought it would be older, 60-74 thats barely old let alone vintage8-)8-)

[Grassiknoll]

Don't be dissapointed! I think it's pretty cool you have such an early serial number range. My nephew thinks anything older than 2 years is ancient! (He's currently waiting for Apple to release a touchscreen Isaxophone)

[kevgermany]

Milandro - hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread and steering it a little.

Do you/your source know if Grassi made the Italian Evette and Schaeffer Buffets that resemble a Buffet SDA? The keywork looks very SDA, but the serial numbers don't seem to match. But may well match the Grassi numbers (mines 4xxxx).

Funny thing is that I appear to have one, stencilled A Santoni, Pare. Which is in Como, but is not marked Made in Italy.

[milandro]

I am quite sure my source doesn't know this detail about Grassi.......bearing in mind that Rampone & Cazzani was much more into stencilling than Grassi ever was, you might want to ask Rampone if they were responsible for that.
Of course there is always the wildcard of this being a Alfonso Rampone rather than a Rampone & Cazzani, apparently Alfonso Rampone was very heavily involved in stencilling (from many horns which appeared here in the past which have been identified as to have been made by them) and who apparently produced a lot of horns with Malerne characteristics .......




Milandro - hope you don't mind me resurrecting this thread and steering it a little.

Do you/your source know if Grassi made the Italian Evette and Schaeffer Buffets that resemble a Buffet SDA? The keywork looks very SDA, but the serial numbers don't seem to match. But may well match the Grassi numbers (mines 4xxxx).

Funny thing is that I appear to have one, stencilled A Santoni, Pare. Which is in Como, but is not marked Made in Italy.

[kevgermany]

Thanks, will try those options...

[milandro]

there is always the possibility to get in touch with the local museum in Quarna sotto
http://www.museoquarna.it/

not yet on line........but there is a postal address

[kevgermany]

Many thanks Milandro! May even persuade my wife to go down there for a few days...

[milandro]

Many thanks Milandro! May even persuade my wife to go down there for a few days...

the place is spectacular and I advise you to drive there not going through Milan as Tom Tom would want you to do but go through the small towns in Switzerland avoiding the highways . It is a long drive at 30Km an hour when you cross the small towns but it is spectacular! I did this during the night (I had planned to be there early in the morning .....I had an appointment with someone and I was far too early).The wildlife I saw I would never forget! There were deers and foxes all over the place!

Quarna is on a mountain and when you think......I am lost........you are almost there! This is the italian Elkhart! At its peak they had 3 woodwind and brass instruments factories. Now, only Rampone remains.

[kevgermany]

Bet it'll be fun in the winter with lots of snow..... Just as well I have a 4wd... Thanks for the hint!

[Hamster]

Hey milando, thanks for the info

I was just having a poke around the site when I saw this topic. Dissapointed however, I have a Grassi Tenor with a S/No 16XX, thought it would be older, 60-74 thats barely old let alone vintage8-)8-)

I've got a much newer Pro 2000 alto, interested to know condition of such an early horn, model and most important, how does it play?

[milandro]

most Gassi play well to very well and very often are kept very nicely

[simso]

Plays really good, I restored it a year or two ago.

[LaPorte]

Just stumbled over this one #21487

http://cgi.ebay.de/Es-Altsaxophon,-Ida-Maria-Grassi-mit-Koffer-und-Zubeh%F6r_W0QQitemZ220556963507QQcmdZViewItemQQims xZ20100217?IMSfp=TL100217166002r22285

I am impressed by the high quality info given in the Grassi subforum. Special thanks to milandro!

Felix

[milandro]

I am very happy to have been of service to you and others :) It is a nice jade rollers there but , as much as I like the jade rollers, there are better Grassi models out there ;)

[Captain Beeflat]

Although it appears that the Professional 200 is the most revered Grassi, the Prestige was considerably more expensive.
Any ideas why? What does the Prestige have to justify it's higher price.
Currently, here in England, a dealer still holds stock of new (original) Grassis. The prices he asks are:-

The" Leader"................£935.
The "Professional 2000"...£1195
The "Prestige 80"...........£1445

All tenors, (presumably lacquer) & all keyed to high F#.
Prices include the EEU VAT of 17.5%

He also advertises similar models in sop, alto & bari.
At 21% more expensive than the Pro 2000 one wonders what the Prestige has to offer.

[milandro]

interesting and mysterious , could you ask for pictures of the different models? I knew of Bill Lewington having some sopranos and some flutes left but I didn't know anyone else who so diligently kept this things for almost 20 years without having selling them and still holding them in such a HIGH esteem.

Think of yourself entering a stockroom full of Grassi saxophones and see the money that you invested 20 years ago staying on the shelves year in year out not getting any better and fighting a battle against the rising competition......must be tough

[Captain Beeflat]

Nothing really mysterious Milandro....the dealer is Don Macrill of Edgeware, North London.
They are advertised on his website, but no photographs. There is always the chance that he has not updated his website for 20 years. :-)
Having them in stock for so long, he may be open to offers....who knows?

[milandro]

that's exactly what I was thinking.........no businessperson likes to see his money laying on the shelf doing nothing for years and years. I didn't think of anything fishy ;)

[Captain Beeflat]

Also Milandro there is no need for the photographs that you requested.
You will probably find that they are curvy yellow things....in fact, as I write this, in all probability you will find one dangling from a string around your neck. :-)

PS. How do you insert smilies on this new format?

[milandro]

:) same way as before! go advanced or learn some keyboard combinations ;)

[milandro]

I saw that they do not have pics, it would have been nice, I think that there was just minor improvement between the better model probably involving the LH table

[Captain Beeflat]

Thanks.
I thought that "advanced" required a PhD :)

[milandro]

Thanks.
I thought that "advanced" required a PhD :)

firsts suffice! ;) :)

[soybean]

Nothing really mysterious Milandro....the dealer is Don Macrill of Edgeware, North London.
They are advertised on his website, but no photographs. There is always the chance that he has not updated his website for 20 years. :-)
Having them in stock for so long, he may be open to offers....who knows?Your guess may be correct. Not only does he list the complete line of Grassi saxes, he also lists the complete line of B&S and Guardala saxes, with prices. These haven't been made in years and I doubt he would still have the complete line of Grassi and B&S horns both still in stock. Could be worth a phone call though.

[milandro]

yes he seems to have lots of things that are not made anymore maybe he specialises in buying remainders stocks

[DavyRay]

Although it appears that the Professional 200 is the most revered Grassi, the Prestige was considerably more expensive.
Any ideas why? What does the Prestige have to justify it's higher price.
Currently, here in England, a dealer still holds stock of new (original) Grassis. The prices he asks are:-

The" Leader"................£935.
The "Professional 2000"...£1195
The "Prestige 80"...........£1445

All tenors, (presumably lacquer) & all keyed to high F#.
Prices include the EEU VAT of 17.5%

He also advertises similar models in sop, alto & bari.
At 21% more expensive than the Pro 2000 one wonders what the Prestige has to offer.

The Prestige was said to be gold plated. It was just like the Professional except for the plating. There are other threads here about the Prestige.

[milandro]

that would make sense and ties with the name too

[Captain Beeflat]

On Monday morning I will telephone Don Mac to enquire about his stock of Grassis & report back.

DavyRay.
Are we to assume therefore that the Prestige is simply a gold plated, re-named Pro 2000?
I would have hoped that the extra £250 would have bought more....diamond encrusted possibly!

[milandro]

well there is always my Wonderful Modelfor sale and its square mother of pearl touches.............. ;) :)

[Sidepipes]

I took the poor man's way out and put a set of jade rollers taken from a damaged Jade model onto my Grassi Professional alto. Now I have the bling as well as the Pro features.

Sidepipes

[Captain Beeflat]

I have just put down the telephone after speaking to Don Mackrill.
As suspected, his website is out of date & his stock of Grassis was sold out "years ago". :twisted:
Interestingly, he used to know "the old girl" & agreed that they were fine horns only lacking in publicity.

sidepipes.

I do like the sound of your modifications.
My Pro 2000 has also been modified by yours truly.....consisting of Paua pearls, bead blasted, de-lacquered body & the word Grassi in graffiti script, carved out of a sheet of 0.7mm silver plate, soldered to the front of the bell.
I was fed up with it being always mistaken for a Selmer, with the inevitable sneering "oh dear....a Selmer copy".

[milandro]

labour of love!

[J.Max]

Although it appears that the Professional 200 is the most revered Grassi, the Prestige was considerably more expensive.
Any ideas why? What does the Prestige have to justify it's higher price.
Currently, here in England, a dealer still holds stock of new (original) Grassis. The prices he asks are:-

The" Leader"................£935.
The "Professional 2000"...£1195
The "Prestige 80"...........£1445

All tenors, (presumably lacquer) & all keyed to high F#.
Prices include the EEU VAT of 17.5%

He also advertises similar models in sop, alto & bari.
At 21% more expensive than the Pro 2000 one wonders what the Prestige has to offer.

The Prestige was gold-plated and had different keywork (especially the LH spatula keys, which were similar to the Buffet S-1). I had a Prestige alto at one point, and found it to be a nice, if fairly stuffy, horn.

[milandro]

I remembered correctly the nice LH table......by the way, very nice!

[Sidepipes]

The rains stopped and the sun came out today, so here is a pic of my Grassi Pro, and one showing the white RooPads that Doc Frazier installed and set up for me. Now I have some bling, Jade rollers, and a big sound as well.

[milandro]

very nice indeed! The carpet is in Quinn style ;) :)

[Captain Beeflat]

Rather too much going on with the pattern of the rug to make out detail on the horn.....akin to a Gaboon Viper on dead leaves. :)

[kevgermany]

Did you buy it? I was watching it and was going to bid, but it suddenly got too expensive.


Just stumbled over this one #21487

http://cgi.ebay.de/Es-Altsaxophon,-Ida-Maria-Grassi-mit-Koffer-und-Zubeh%F6r_W0QQitemZ220556963507QQcmdZViewItemQQims xZ20100217?IMSfp=TL100217166002r22285

I am impressed by the high quality info given in the Grassi subforum. Special thanks to milandro!

Felix

[Captain Beeflat]

The rains stopped and the sun came out today, so here is a pic of my Grassi Pro, and one showing the white RooPads that Doc Frazier installed and set up for me. Now I have some bling, Jade rollers, and a big sound as well.

At the risk of appearing as a monosyllabic rapper wishing to out bling my peers, may I respectfully submit some photographs of my Pro 2000.
Yo, Dude!








De lacquered, Paua touches,bell & crook engraved, with various sundry embellishments.

[milandro]

I find it very nice! ( you certainly know how to give shape to the word iconoclast

I am sure that my wonderful model would be in good hands if you would buy it and modify it this way! :)

[Captain Beeflat]

milandro.
Your gorgeous "Wonderful" needs no embellishment......if only it were a tenor, with those outrageous key touches.

[milandro]

unfortunately the wonderful model tenors were never featuring the rectangular MOP touches !

[LaPorte]

Did you buy it? I was watching it and was going to bid, but it suddenly got too expensive.

No, I did not bid on it. I heard someone playing a similiar Grassi model. Although it sounded good, I was not deeply touched by the sound. Some people are obviously very happy with their Grassi's and some of them seem to be really great horns.

Felix

[DetroitDave]

Woof!


At the risk of appearing as a monosyllabic rapper wishing to out bling my peers, may I respectfully submit some photographs of my Pro 2000.
Yo, Dude!
....
De lacquered, Paua touches,bell & crook engraved, with various sundry embellishments.


WOW!

[DetroitDave]

No, I did not bid on it. I heard someone playing a similiar Grassi model. Although it sounded good, I was not deeply touched by the sound. Some people are obviously very happy with their Grassi's and some of them seem to be really great horns.

Felix

I once heard someone play a Mark VI and was not deeply touched by the sound. I once heard someone play a SBA and was not deeply touched by his sound either. I once heard someone play a Conn 10M..... etc.

Then I once heard Coltrane, Hawkins, and some guy named Dexter play each those same brands of horns and I admit to being quite deeply touched by those sounds.

Then I picked up each of those horns (not those exact ones, of course! Sigh... ) and after messing around for awhile to find the right mouthpiece, reed and embouchure and breath technique for each, I was pretty much really deeply touched by them even though it still didn't sound like those other three guys. It didn't take me any longer to be touched by the sound of a pro Grassi, either.

But I don't know how I could judge how I might be touched by any horn's sound only by hearing someone play a similar model once. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that perhaps if you heard any of several players in this forum play their Grassis or, better yet, perhaps tried one yourself, the Grassi sound might be more touching for you.

[LaPorte]

I once heard someone play a Mark VI and was not deeply touched by the sound. I once heard someone play a SBA and was not deeply touched by his sound either. I once heard someone play a Conn 10M..... etc.

Then I once heard Coltrane, Hawkins, and some guy named Dexter play each those same brands of horns and I admit to being quite deeply touched by those sounds.

Then I picked up each of those horns (not those exact ones, of course! Sigh... ) and after messing around for awhile to find the right mouthpiece, reed and embouchure and breath technique for each, I was pretty much really deeply touched by them even though it still didn't sound like those other three guys. It didn't take me any longer to be touched by the sound of a pro Grassi, either.

But I don't know how I could judge how I might be touched by any horn's sound only by hearing someone play a similar model once. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that perhaps if you heard any of several players in this forum play their Grassis or, better yet, perhaps tried one yourself, the Grassi sound might be more touching for you.

I am indeed touched by the playing of Dr Larry Ross ... not by dispensable comments.

http://drlarryross.bizland.com/

Cheers

[LaPorte]

Is the 'y' of 'MADE IN ITALy' consistantly written mirror-inverted on Grassi's?



If so, this character could additionally be used to identify stencils.

[milandro]

Grassi , because of their relatively late appearing on the scene, we are talking of the '60 when Japanese Stencils were already on the market, made, comparatively , very few, if at all, stencils compared to Rampone and Orsi which were more into the stencils market (Borgani also never features among the stencils makers, as far as I know) .

The most unknown Italian factory has to be " Desidera" of Verona , which, I believe was derived from a Stowasser factory in Italy

[Captain Beeflat]

Is the 'y' of 'MADE IN ITALy' consistantly written mirror-inverted on Grassi's?



If so, this character could additionally be used to identify stencils.

It is difficult to see how this happened.
If the "Y" punch were positioned incorrectly the Y would be sideways or upside down.
Perhaps they had lost the Y from the punch set, so ground a leg off the X....the wrong leg!

[LaPorte]

It is difficult to see how this happened.
If the "Y" punch were positioned incorrectly the Y would be sideways or upside down.
Perhaps they had lost the Y from the punch set, so ground a leg off the X....the wrong leg!

That's a clever explanation. 'Y' might also not have been part of the punch set, as it was just an Italian set, which usually does not need a Grecian 'Y'.

Following picture is taken from a Grassi tenor, the other (#72) from an alto which is branded "A. CASSINI".



How are the letter Y shaped on your Grassi saxophones?

[LaPorte]

Grassi , because of their relatively late appearing on the scene, we are talking of the '60 when Japanese Stencils were already on the market, made, comparatively , very few, if at all, stencils compared to Rampone and Orsi which were more into the stencils market (Borgani also never features among the stencils makers, as far as I know) .

The most unknown Italian factory has to be " Desidera" of Verona , which, I believe was derived from a Stowasser factory in Italy

That's interesting info, milandro! You do know the Italian woodwind landscape.

[milandro]

:) cheers,

the letter Y of my Grassi (wonderful model ) is a normal Y

[LaPorte]

I've just won that conglomerate of brass, springs, MOP's, corks etc. around that number. :mrgreen:

[milandro]

nice, can we see more than the serial number.........:) congrats!

[LaPorte]

nice, can we see more than the serial number.........:) congrats!









The seller did not show the left side.
I was looking for a player. Appearance is secondary for me.

Hearing this was crucial for my decision. Dr Larry Ross playing an Ida Maria Grassi Majestic Professional Tenor Saxophone s/n 135xx: "I did some improvisation on Joe Henderson's Punjab with this horn using the Meyer 5M & La Voz Medium reed, ..."

http://drlarryross.bizland.com/media/Dr.%20Larry%20Ross%20Improv%20on%20Joe%20Henderson 's%20Punjab%2010.mp3

My new Grassi tenor is obviously a cheaper model. Does it affect the sound quality?

[Captain Beeflat]

I am still attempting to discover why any set of punches should have a reversed Y.
It is the right way around on my Pro 2000 & also on both my R&Cs which are a century apart in age.

[DetroitDave]

I am indeed touched by the playing of Dr Larry Ross ... not by dispensable comments.

http://drlarryross.bizland.com/

Cheers

Yes, I agree Larry sounds great. I am lucky enough to live nearby him so his sound is not new to me. We employ the same repair technician so I get to see many of Dr. Ross's horns before and after restoration. I'm also lucky enough to own one of his favorite former Grassi tenors. More on that in response to your serial number discovery below.

[LaPorte]

I am still attempting to discover why any set of punches should have a reversed Y.
It is the right way around on my Pro 2000 & also on both my R&Cs which are a century apart in age.

Apparently that reversed Y can only be found on lower serial numbers - sixties? Here is that alto stencilled "A. CASSINI":

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-ITALIAN-MADE-BRASS-SAX_W0QQitemZ200441663760QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item2eab411110#ht_795wt_1161

[DetroitDave]

Is the 'y' of 'MADE IN ITALy' consistantly written mirror-inverted on Grassi's?



If so, this character could additionally be used to identify stencils.

I own a Grassi tenor bought from Larry Ross, serial #127xx. Unfortunately the serial number area is well worn and the "Made In Italy" stamp below the number is barely discernible. With a good magnifying glass it looks like the "Y" of "Italy" could be mirror image/inverted, but it's just too worn to tell. Under one light at one angle I'd guess that it is, under another light angle it looks like it isn't.

I also have a Grassi alto serial #88xx which, if the alto and tenor serial number sequences are the same, must be older than the the tenor. The serial number area is not as worn on this horn but there is a definite scratch right at the base of that "Y" in "Italy" so again, it's hard to tell if the base of the "Y" angles right lieft or is vertical. If I had to guess, I'd say it is "mirror/inverted" as the one you show, but I could be being overly influenced by your photograph and projecting that onto the horn.

Lastly, I have a 152xx "Jade Rollers" Grassi tenor. Its serial number area is quite clear and the "Y" of "Italy" is very definitely canted to the right -- i.e., it is "mirror/inverted" just as the one in your photograph.

[LaPorte]

... Lastly, I have a 152xx "Jade Rollers" Grassi tenor. Its serial number area is quite clear and the "Y" of "Italy" is very definitely canted to the right -- i.e., it is "mirror/inverted" just as the one in your photograph.

Thank you for your detailed and accurate response. So it seems probable, that the inverted "Y" was in use at least during the sixties, possibly longer.

[simso]

My Grassi is probably one of the oldest still around 16##, and the Y in italy is normal on the front engraving with ida maria, however the serial number does not have made in italy near it, just the serial number stamped into the back and on the neck

[Captain Beeflat]

Forgive my ignorance, but who is this chap Larry Ross? Apart from the fact that I now know his excellent taste in horns, I know nothing of him.
What influenced his preference for Grassis....& Dave, which model is the ex Ross horn that you own, & how does it play?

[LaPorte]

My Grassi is probably one of the oldest still around 16##, and the Y in italy is normal on the front engraving with ida maria, however the serial number does not have made in italy near it, just the serial number stamped into the back and on the neck

That is a new aspect. So the earliest ones are lacking the "MADE IN ITALY" below the serial number. What year do you think was it made?

[LaPorte]

Forgive my ignorance, but who is this chap Larry Ross? Apart from the fact that I now know his excellent taste in horns, I know nothing of him.
What influenced his preference for Grassis....& Dave, which model is the ex Ross horn that you own, & how does it play?

I didn't know him before I came across his website recently. Here is an interview with Dr. Larry Ross:

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=562&pg=1

[simso]

Well its 16XX so Im guessing in the first 5 years of grassi making horns, but this is purely a gues. The serial number is in the same location sideways up the back but no made in italy, Im guessing becuase the logo is hand engraved the Y is correct on all models but as someone pointed out earlier Y isnt italian hence m,aybe the modified X as a stamp makes sense

[LaPorte]

Well its 16XX so Im guessing in the first 5 years of grassi making horns ...

A European source claims that Grassi started saxophone production 1948. I doubt in that. If production started that early, some features on your instrument (e.g. keywork) must be different. Is that the case?

Do you have some photos?

[milandro]

I am sure that Grassi started in the early '60 and not before , my source is very reliable...........anyway , the museum of Quarna could clear that doubt , my " wonderful model" doesn't have Made in Italy written under the serial number it says " Made in Italy " (normal Y) by the logo on the bell. My horn is a 1976 one, not that early then !


X is as foreign to Italian as Y is and the fact that there was no Y available might be down to just a mistake that was deemed good enough to be carried on ( a lot of folks invert S an N when writing in block letters for example) . The first two solid silver STERLING horns made by Rampone and Cazzani were stamped 800 (AG 800 ) by mistake since that is the normal grade found in Italy but it was meant o be Sterling 925 and were simply stamped like that by mistake.

[simso]

Photos are on page 2

[LaPorte]

Thank you.

Just found an early silverplated tenor #1693

[milandro]

this is indeed a very early horn............early '60 that is! :)

[simso]

Is that the one that was on ebay last month

[LaPorte]

Is that the one that was on ebay last month

Yes, it ended Feb 2.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-Ida-Maria-Grassi-Co-alto-saxophone-c-1960s_W0QQitemZ190368432273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_W oodwind_Instruments?hash=item2c52d7c091#ht_500wt_1 176

[DetroitDave]

Forgive my ignorance, but who is this chap Larry Ross? Apart from the fact that I now know his excellent taste in horns, I know nothing of him.
What influenced his preference for Grassis....& Dave, which model is the ex Ross horn that you own, & how does it play?

I don't know all that much about Larry Ross other than he is one of the many outstanding musicians in this little part of Missouri. I think his day job is anthropology professor at nearby Lincoln U. I first learned of him via my Selmer horn technician who also works on Larry's horns. After reading of Grassi horns here I mentioned them to my tech and he proceeded to sing serious praise of the few Grassis he had seen, all brought to him by Larry Ross. When Dr. Ross decided to sell his first and favorite Grassi, I asked the tech if it was worth it and he winked and said, "No, it's worth way more than that. You will think it sounds as good as your Mark VI only with a nicer bottom end." So I bought it and he was right.

This 12xxx serial number horn does not have seem to have a model name -- it just says Grassi with the characteristic laurel wreath circular logo and other engraving on the bell similar to other horns pictured here... Tech guy thinks all the earlier Grassis were "professional grade" horns -- at least the ones that he has seen are -- and that their high intermediate lines ("Jade rollers," Wonderful, etc.) came along a bit later. I don't know if that is accurate or not but I haven't seen anything here that contradicts his notion. This horn lacks some of the characteristic Mark VI ergonomic touches but it blows very, very sweet. It has its own sound which is similar in some aspects but not a copy of the VI by any means. It is very enjoyable to play. I gave a long subjective comparison somewhere else in this section of the forum not too long ago.

re: Larry Ross's predilection for Grassis? I don't know really. He buys, sells, restores, collects and plays many different horns. His eBay store (http://stores.ebay.com/Larrys-Collection?_rdc=1) always has several very interesting horns and usually a few brands or stencils I've never heard of. Lately he seems to be finding lots of high quality eastern European horns. I suspect he probably discovered his first Grassi (the one I have, I think) by accident and after that started keeping an eye out for them.

[Captain Beeflat]

Thank you Dave....that answers all my questions.
When I first played my Grassi it reminded me, in sound and feel, of a Mk 6 that I used to own. Obviously I was unable to play them back to back so I am interested in your more objective comparison.
Mine is a Pro 2000 which possibly accounts for the "Mk 6 feel" compared to your earlier Grassi.
I really would like to try a Mk 6 against mine as a back to back comparison.

[milandro]

Ahem........not to correct you in any way Dave, but the wonderful model is not an intermediate horn and it is very different from the Jade rollers...........maybe you want to study these pics again ;) :)

[/URL]
[URL=http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassirightside.jpg/] (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassileftside.jpg/)


also the fact that the keys and rods (tarnished in the pics) are silver plated was meant as a sign of quality

[DetroitDave]

Ahem........not to correct you in any way Dave, but the wonderful model is not an intermediate horn and it is very different from the Jade rollers...........maybe you want to study these pics again ;) :)

[/URL]
[URL="http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassirightside.jpg/"] (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassileftside.jpg/)


also the fact that the keys and rods (tarnished in the pics) are silver plated was meant as a sign of quality

Oh, Milandro, I sure didn't intend to demean the quality of the Wonderful line of Grassis. Perhaps intermediate is the wrong term... Anwyay, I thought I had read here somewhere that the Wonderful line was a step below the pro models, but I guess I had that wrong. The Wonderful horns surely are beautiful, perhaps the prettiest horns ever made under the Ida Maria Grassi nameplate. Yours certainly is! I was probably repeating (or perhaps misunderstanding) some speculative rumor about them that I read in a much earlier thread.

I am pretty sure I have read here that the "Jade Rollers" line has been identified as somewhat below the pro line. I have one, I like it a lot, it plays great. Personally, I don't consider this jade rollers to be an intermediate horn either, at least not by today's standards. It plays as easily and sounds nearly as good as my Mark VI. So if the Wonderful line was above that, it must be a very excellent instrument.

[milandro]

:) with all due respect for your horn Dave , the Jade rollers are nice and have a very nice sound........ , but are a complete different kettle of fish ! They were the horns with which Grassi established itself on the market, but they were not in the same league, when it comes to mechanics as the later '70 horns which demonstrated the ambitions that they had. Unfortunately their break-through on the professional market never happened.

[DetroitDave]

:) with all due respect for your horn Dave , the Jade rollers are nice and have a very nice sound........ , but are a complete different kettle of fish ! .....

Okay, I tried this but the fish died. How do you keep the water from leaking out the Eb key?
:)

[milandro]

You jump in the water with the horn and put the fish in it , obviously! :)

[LaPorte]

:) with all due respect for your horn Dave , the Jade rollers are nice and have a very nice sound........ , but are a complete different kettle of fish ! They were the horns with which Grassi established itself on the market, but they were not in the same league, when it comes to mechanics as the later '70 horns which demonstrated the ambitions that they had. Unfortunately their break-through on the professional market never happened.

I find it very interesting as you describe how Grassi saxophones developed from quality to pro-horns. As I mainly play saxophones from the twenties with their clunky keywork, a later horn, say from the sixties seems to me pretty modern.

"... As you can ascertain, Grassi copied Selmer to a great degree (e.g. the bell brace and the octave key logo); however, they made their horns of a heavier yellow brass during this period (later models became thinner), ..." (Larry Ross)

Is there a change in sound from early to later models, that could be indicated or put into words?

[milandro]

I think that early models (certainly the ubiquitous " Jade Rollers") had a very distinctive warm and mellow sound ( I have had one of those too) while the later models were probably more mainstream (brighter) in the times that they were made. As far as I know the altos were considered their best horns , but to be honest, I've never played a Grassi tenor. I did own a baritone (jade rollers) and it was an OK horn, my particular saxophone had an extended neck so might not qualify as the best example in its sort , but, being generally an amateur , I am no bari player!

[Captain Beeflat]

" however, they made their horns of a heavier yellow brass during this period (later models became thinner), ..." (Larry Ross)



I have always believed this to be a myth.
The body of both my 1990 Grassi and my 1925 Buescher is made of 22 SWG brass....this is a thickness of 0.711 mm.
The even numbers of Wire Gauge tend to be used; therefore, one gauge heavier, 20 SWG ( 0.914 mm) would be almost unworkable & 24 SWG (0.559 mm) has the consistency of cooking foil.

[LaPorte]

I have always believed this to be a myth.
The body of both my 1990 Grassi and my 1925 Buescher is made of 22 SWG brass....this is a thickness of 0.711 mm.
The even numbers of Wire Gauge tend to be used; therefore, one gauge heavier, 20 SWG ( 0.914 mm) would be almost unworkable & 24 SWG (0.559 mm) has the consistency of cooking foil.

That is intersting stuff. Yellow brass is the American term for brass containing 67% copper and 33% zinc. I wonder if there are saxophones made of brass with a different mixing ratio. If so, the specific weight could vary. I had to search for the meaning of SWG. Just found:

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Wire.htm

[milandro]

there is " French Brass" with a different composition (don't remember which) and " Red brass " ( 85% copper) both used in saxophone making, no idea of their thickness

[Captain Beeflat]

That is intersting stuff. Yellow brass is the American term for brass containing 67% copper and 33% zinc. I wonder if there are saxophones made of brass with a different mixing ratio. If so, the specific weight could vary. I had to search for the meaning of SWG. Just found:

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Wire.htm

The constituents of brass vary; therefore, for any given volume, the mass will vary. The thickness however remains constant.
It is also doubtful whether red (high copper content) brass will result in a different tone from a horn made from lower copper content brass.
Some believe it to be so, but it's best not to open this can of worms here. :)

[DetroitDave]

The constituents of brass vary; therefore, for any given volume, the mass will vary. The thickness however remains constant.
It is also doubtful whether red (high copper content) brass will result in a different tone from a horn made from lower copper content brass.
Some believe it to be so, but it's best not to open this can of worms here. :)

I know nothing of brass or its constituent components. I do know that my older Grassi tenor (ser #12+++) weighs more than my Jade Rollers Grassi (ser #15+++) which weighs about the same as my Selmer Mark VI which was built in 1968. So, they're "heavy" but I have no idea if or how that translates into quality. When I ask my horn repair tech what he likes best about the Grassis he says stuff like, "They used real brass in those babies. They're built like tanks!" I don't know if he knows all there is to know about brass composition either, but he has been hammering dents out of horns for over 45 years and I suspect he does know the feel of high quality brass in horns when he "feels" it.

[Captain Beeflat]

I know nothing of brass or its constituent components. I do know that my older Grassi tenor (ser #12+++) weighs more than my Jade Rollers Grassi (ser #15+++) which weighs about the same as my Selmer Mark VI which was built in 1968. So, they're "heavy" but I have no idea if or how that translates into quality. When I ask my horn repair tech what he likes best about the Grassis he says stuff like, "They used real brass in those babies. They're built like tanks!" I don't know if he knows all there is to know about brass composition either, but he has been hammering dents out of horns for over 45 years and I suspect he does know the feel of high quality brass in horns when he "feels" it.

Dave.
I suggest that it is little to do with "Real Brass" or any other emotive expression. It's all to do with the appropriate material for the purpose.
Extra weight does not imply quality.
Different brass constituents are used to shade the sound (or the perceived sound) of the horn....the point at which the sympathetic frequencies "chime".
To be built "like a tank" is excellent....for a tank. A trait not universally followed in the manufacture of Formula 1 cars.
I further suggest that this is the reason why your horn repair tech repairs horns rather than being involved in the design . :)

[Captain Beeflat]

Dave.
Another aspect of knocking dents out of saxophones is, of course, the hardness of the material.
It will be much harder to knock out dents of hardened, as distinct from annealed, brass.
Heat is involved during the initial soldering of the main body components. The brass will remain soft (anneal) when allowed to cool gradually, whereas quenching it will harden the brass. Consequently, dependant upon the hardness, it will be more, or less, difficult to work.
The malleable factor will differ for the same gauge of material.

[LaPorte]

nice, can we see more than the serial number.........:) congrats!

The tenor has arrived. My first impression: Condition not nearly as good as described (no overhaul), old 'shot' pads. After some 'tweaking' and using among others following setup: Yanagisawa metal 8, old Rico V-2,5 I playtested the tenor to answer the question: will a complete overhaul be worth the effort?

Result: It's not a roaring 'blow away' like my Keilwerth Toneking, but it is easy and free blowing and has a beautifullly chanting (enchanting me) tone which is faintly reminiscent of a bass clarinet in the middle register. No doubt this one will get an overhaul soon! My sentiment says that I will be very happy with it.:)

[LaPorte]

#13926 weighs 3lb 15 3/4oz or 1808g, completely stripped off, without neck and key guards, including pivot screws and needles.