Restricting my "diet"...or how I learned to love Joe Henderson.

[HonkBopSax]

I've been listening to a ton of different stuff lately, from Cuban boleros to Miles during the funk period. And ya know, I've been bored. The stuff that used to grab me no matter what just hasn't been doing it. Worse yet, I'm getting bored with my own playing.

While throwing junk out from my recent move, I came across my practice journal from 1998. It had a list of what i was working on, and what my teacher had my listening to at the time. And I was surprised - lots of Joe Henderson, Thad Jones small group stuff, Jobim, Joe Henderson, Charlie Rouse, and, oh yeah, Joe Henderson. I haven't listening to Joe in probably 5 years. And I am so glad I found that old book - I'm now hooked on Joe.

Long story short, I dumped all the above stuff on my ipod in a playlist and have been listening to nothing but Charlie, Joe and Thad. What a diet. I was totally ignorant to what Joe was doing and had previously though Thad Jones was just a big band leader. Sad how clueless I was. The stuff I'm listening to now has totally energized me and changed what I'm practicing. I've gone back to transcribing and using my ears to pick out tunes. I've moved away from shedding patterns and moved back into working listening and transcribing into everything I'm doing. I've gotten so complacent about what I play and what I listen to that I haven't been really listening to tenor players the way I used to - for ideas, for swing, for tone, etc.

So what say you guys? Is there room for Charlie, Thad and Joe amongst the modern-day heavyweights?

[dshook]

Heck yes. Joe is beyond hip. Check out Youtube there is some amazing stuff up there too.

[jmathesonjr]

The Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Big Band is a must listen. The ideas and innovations that came out of that organization have set the standard for almost everything that followed. The most egregious error made by this band was its lack of recording output. There are about six albumns or less of this group. There should have been much much more of this band.

Joe Henderson was so creative and breath taking. I feel he is too underrated. He was one of the best and needs much more recognition. A listening diet for Tenor Saxophone definitely needs to have Getz, Coltrane, Sims, and Henderson on the list. If one were to transcribe these four people's output, you may have one or two days a year were you weren't working as a saxophonist.

I must admit that I am unfamiliar with Charlie Rouse and need to educate myself with his playing.

The people you were listening to are good. I can understand getting bored with Miles. There are times when I feel I do not understand what he is doing. He is playing above me. I need to have something a little closer to my thinking and heart. Gerry Mulligan is my go to musician. However, Henderson, Getz, Thad Jones, and vocalists are all in my playlists for ideas.

[HonkBopSax]

The more I think on it, the more I realize that I'm just digging the overall sound more of Thad's small group, Charlie's albums outside of his work with Monk, and Joe's Blue Note output. Charlie's stuff outside of his album with monk is incredibly different than his playing with Monk, but I love it.

Tell me if this is weird, but I find myself listening MORE to the bands around them...listening to what the drummer is doing, how the piano is comping...when I hear these guys than I do with anything else? Listening to these guys makes me want to just put the horn together and play.

[Swampcabbage]

Joe, Charlie, and Thad ARE a huge part of modern playing. They all had a keen harmonic sense and yet stayed lyrical. Thad Jones and Mel Lewis included such modern heavyweights as Mike Brecker, Joe Lovano, Steve Coleman, Pat Labarbara, and so many more that are slipping my mind right now.

I went through a Joe period about a year ago. I'd suggest that if you have an emusic.com account that you can download tons of Joe at bargain prices. They just got a whole bunch more including the entire OJC catalog.

[rleitch]

I must admit that I am unfamiliar with Charlie Rouse and need to educate myself with his playing.



Charlie Rouse! IMHO, one of the most ridiculously underrated tenor giants. In addition to the obvious stuff--i.e. with Monk or playing Monk--check out the Upper Manhattan Jazz Society cd

http://www.amazon.com/Upper-Manhattan-Jazz-Society/dp/B000005C7O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1216334355&sr=1-3

Rory

[bstrom]

I agree that Joe Henderson is somebody you could learn alot about playing the saxophone from and music in general, he is on my list of the best.

[maestroelite]

Joe has been a guy I've had a tough time grasping until I read this thread. I've got Inner Urge and a couple other of his albums and I like them but something about it hasn't compelled multiple listenings to me - not a knock on their playing just my personal feelings. I found a live recording of Joe from 1994 tonight that just knocks me out. Thanks for posting this thread! I love finding stuff like this.

http://urge2burge.wordpress.com/category/joe-henderson/

[milomo]

Charlie Rouse! IMHO, one of the most ridiculously underrated tenor giants. In addition to the obvious stuff--i.e. with Monk or playing Monk--check out the Upper Manhattan Jazz Society cd

http://www.amazon.com/Upper-Manhattan-Jazz-Society/dp/B000005C7O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1216334355&sr=1-3

Rory
Good call, that is an excellent one. One that I really like is Taylor's Tenors (http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Taylor's%20Tenors:1921121944). It's Art Taylor's record, with Rouse and Frank Foster in front of A.T., Sam Jones and Walter Davis Jr.. Charlie and Frank really tear it up, and while their sounds are pretty different, they're both beautiful, and blend well together.

[Bob M]

I've been getting back into listening to Joe Henderson lately, particularly his trio stuff. Check out "The Standard Joe" with Al Foster and Rufus Reid. It has two great versions of "Body and Soul" as well as other classics, including "Inner Urge" which I have been 'shedding lately. Another great trio recording is "State of the Tenor", recorded live at the Vanguard.

Charlie Rouse....I've got a two CD set of Monk "Live at the It Club" with Rouse that I haven't listened to in a while. I'll have to remedy that;).

[dshook]

Joe has been a guy I've had a tough time grasping until I read this thread. I've got Inner Urge and a couple other of his albums and I like them but something about it hasn't compelled multiple listenings to me - not a knock on their playing just my personal feelings. I found a live recording of Joe from 1994 tonight that just knocks me out. Thanks for posting this thread! I love finding stuff like this.

http://urge2burge.wordpress.com/category/joe-henderson/

Wow, awesome blog and great tracks, thanks for the link!

[rleitch]

Good call, that is an excellent one. One that I really like is Taylor's Tenors (http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Taylor's%20Tenors:1921121944). It's Art Taylor's record, with Rouse and Frank Foster in front of A.T., Sam Jones and Walter Davis Jr.. Charlie and Frank really tear it up, and while their sounds are pretty different, they're both beautiful, and blend well together.

Cool. Thanks. I didn't know about that one!

I can never get tired of talking about how great Charlie Rouse is. I can't quite explain it, but for me he somehow sums up everything I love about modern jazz tenor playing. For me his playing is totally awesome and inspiring, but at the same time he doesn't scare me so much that I can't imagine playing something myself. My other favs--John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Benny Golson, and Lester Young--are inapproachable like that for me. Also his technique, I think, is absolutely textbook perfect. In short, ecce homo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjBgf6RVim8

Cheers

Rory

[RICHARD GARCIA]

So many musicians always praise Thelonious Monk for his genius and respect his unorthodox musicianship and compositions. This includes Sonny and Trane, the later even made it a point of working with Monk in order to improve his musicianship. In the recently released album (of lost tapes) of Monk and Trane at Carnegie Hall, Trane plays his butt off, however it's noticeable that he had not yet acclimated himself to these difficult compositions and with playing with Monk and his band. This speaks volumes to what a tough gig that was.

Well Charlie Rouse was the saxophonist that "played" this gig for eleven years and played it he did. He made so many oblique lines sound deceptively easy, and the tunes musical. His interpretations of Monk's tunes always amazes me, as I try to imagine what the pressure of being on the bandstand with Monk must have been like (Monk didn't suffer fools well). As you listen closely you can understand and appreciate why Monk chose him, as his playing can be very thematic, rhythmical, and yet assymetrical, much like Monk himself.

I had the fortunate opportunity to meet and speak to him once and he was very kind and gracious to me. Even though Charlie Rouse was very underrated in his career, he left enough music that he should not be underappreciated, however this is not the stuff you start out listening to and studying, as it is advanced. Monk, like scotch is an acquired taste (not everyone's preference). One should learn the rules and play well in the box in order to understand and appreciate how skillfully and masterfully some can go beyond that.

[jmathesonjr]

Double Rainbow and Lush Life by Joe Henderson are two must own CDs. The stuff he recorded before he died is incredibly good.

[themacintrasher]

Double Rainbow and Lush Life by Joe Henderson are two must own CDs. The stuff he recorded before he died is incredibly good.
Add Page One the that list. Also his solos on Red Clay and Song for my father.

[AndyW]

The stuff he recorded before he died is incredibly good.

...the stuff he recorded after he died? not so good.... :|

[citizn cane]

When I first heard Joe's State of the Tenor, after having been a HUGE fan for 20 yrs, I was so overwhelmed, it almost made me physically ill. Soul, tradition, fluency, imagination, hip-ness. He kinda avoids patterns & it's so together at the same time.

[citizn cane]

Great OP Honk, funny thing about "bored w/ funk Miles," got me thinkin' that Joe would've sounded great with Pete Cosey...

[TJS]

I've been listening to a ton of different stuff lately, from Cuban boleros to Miles during the funk period. And ya know, I've been bored. The stuff that used to grab me no matter what just hasn't been doing it. Worse yet, I'm getting bored with my own playing.

While throwing junk out from my recent move, I came across my practice journal from 1998. It had a list of what i was working on, and what my teacher had my listening to at the time. And I was surprised - lots of Joe Henderson, Thad Jones small group stuff, Jobim, Joe Henderson, Charlie Rouse, and, oh yeah, Joe Henderson. I haven't listening to Joe in probably 5 years. And I am so glad I found that old book - I'm now hooked on Joe.

Long story short, I dumped all the above stuff on my ipod in a playlist and have been listening to nothing but Charlie, Joe and Thad. What a diet. I was totally ignorant to what Joe was doing and had previously though Thad Jones was just a big band leader. Sad how clueless I was. The stuff I'm listening to now has totally energized me and changed what I'm practicing. I've gone back to transcribing and using my ears to pick out tunes. I've moved away from shedding patterns and moved back into working listening and transcribing into everything I'm doing. I've gotten so complacent about what I play and what I listen to that I haven't been really listening to tenor players the way I used to - for ideas, for swing, for tone, etc.

So what say you guys? Is there room for Charlie, Thad and Joe amongst the modern-day heavyweights?

I think you hit on something very important. Moving away from shedding patterns and working listening and transcribing in to everything you are doing. Transcription and listening are the key. Everything you want to learn about improvising is on a record somewhere. It is just how you use that knowledge to sound like yourself. Best of luck.

I definitely think Charlie Rouse is underrated. I honestly haven't checked out much of the Thad Jones small group stuff. However, I think he is one of the great jazz writers.

To me, Joe Henderson is not merely amongst modern-day heavyweights. He is one of the greats, period. Tone, technique, ideas, writing. If he is over looked I cannot imagine why.

[AndyW]

I think you hit on something very important. Moving away from shedding patterns and working listening and transcribing in to everything you are doing. Transcription and listening are the key. Everything you want to learn about improvising is on a record somewhere. It is just how you use that knowledge to sound like yourself. Best of luck.

I definitely think Charlie Rouse is underrated. I honestly haven't checked out much of the Thad Jones small group stuff. However, I think he is one of the great jazz writers.

To me, Joe Henderson is not merely amongst modern-day heavyweights. He is one of the greats, period. Tone, technique, ideas, writing. If he is over looked I cannot imagine why.

I've spent a lot of time shedding patterns out of "Patterns for jazz" and other books, yet I never seem to hear more than the tiniest fragment of those patterns in solos by the good guys, the guys & gals we all love.
So I tend to agree- transcribe and analyse.

I love Rouse, but I've mostly heard him with Monk - imho, he fits the Monk group's angular approach better than trane or rollins, and I wouldn't underestimate Rouse's influence on guys like Branford Marsalis & Ralph Moore. (check out BM's "Roused About" and RM's "Monk's dream" or "Christina".) Not sure about Charlie's later albums, & I was never a great "Sphere" fan, maybe I should listen again.

Henderson? - love him, mostly, though he can get a bit "out" on some of the late 60's bluenote stuff. Last album I bought was Grant Green "Idle moments", and who's the superb tenor player?: Joe Henderson.

-A-

[HonkBopSax]

Great OP Honk, funny thing about "bored w/ funk Miles," got me thinkin' that Joe would've sounded great with Pete Cosey...

My gear's are stuck in Blue Note right now, but it's probably long overdue. I've listened but never really listened...Dexter, Joe, Thad, Cliff Jordan, Harold Vick, etc...

[citizn cane]

I have so much of that stuff, it's an embarrassment of riches, so to speak, in that even if I picked 3 discs, I'd have enough transcription material for a long, long time. In our age of information, it's easy to just take a cursory glace & move on to the "next thing." Kinda like when someone was mentioning the difference (& advantages) of album covers compared to a bunch of stuff on an ipod. Somehow I think the depth of valuation & understanding takes a hit when there's all this stuff available at one's fingertips.

The thing about Joe, to me, is that while I've done some transcriptions of portions of his solos (his own Blue Note stuff & stuff with Horace Silver), there's usually a passage where he's so fleet & unconventional, I bail & chalk it up to pure imagination. Not that I'm quitting cause it's hard (it is), but more like it seems like he wouldn't want me to copy those things, & I need to figure out how to approach it with my own imagination. He's what I've always considered the epitome of modern creative tenor.

[RICHARD GARCIA]

I have so much of that stuff, it's an embarrassment of riches, so to speak, in that even if I picked 3 discs, I'd have enough transcription material for a long, long time. In our age of information, it's easy to just take a cursory glace & move on to the "next thing." Kinda like when someone was mentioning the difference (& advantages) of album covers compared to a bunch of stuff on an ipod. Somehow I think the depth of valuation & understanding takes a hit when there's all this stuff available at one's fingertips.

The thing about Joe, to me, is that while I've done some transcriptions of portions of his solos (his own Blue Note stuff & stuff with Horace Silver), there's usually a passage where he's so fleet & unconventional, I bail & chalk it up to pure imagination. Not that I'm quitting cause it's hard (it is), but more like it seems like he wouldn't want me to copy those things, & I need to figure out how to approach it with my own imagination. He's what I've always considered the epitome of modern creative tenor.


I really agree with many of the points you make. The first really hip jazz album I bought when I was in high school was Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder (It was very popular at the time and I primarily played trumpet then). I listened to that whole album night and day and memorized every song and solo. It not only was great music, and great playing, it was the only album I had at the time, until I could afford and find other Blue notes. I really value those musical memories and distinctly remember the music (especially those first few treasured albums).

The sax player on Sidewnder just amazed and intrigued me, as he sounded and played so different from the R&B sax players I previously had heard ... it was Joe Henderson. He eventually opened the doors to "everyone" for me. When trying to learn some of his passages and musical gems there were many times I also wanted to "bail". I still continue to admire his creativity as he would always do something uniquely different, rhythmically or melodic on a tune and thus put his own stamp on it. Even now we will put a label on it when we recognize someone influenced by him play or use one of his musical devices and we describe it as "a kinda Joe Henderson thing", and everyone understands.