Jazz Giants that didn't use

[Mope]

or drink in excess- Are there any?

[Bloo Dog]

Pianist Billy Taylor

Clarinetist Buddy Di Franco

[AntonVonWebern]

What about Dolphy?, I heard he didn`t use drugs (cant remember where I heard that though, which is why I am questioning it) Just ordered a book about him so I suppose I`ll find out in due course.

[Al Stevens]

Clifford Brown

[tenor71363]

Dizzy.

[Kritavi]

Cannonball

[bbbouklas]

but I guess Cannonball ate in excess! LOL

[Mope]

No sax players? How about band leaders?

Oh sorry, only Cannonball

[tenor71363]

Kenton, Ellington, Lunceford..

[Swampcabbage]

Deleted comment.

[SaxJazz12]

If you're gonna include refer than Dizzy would be off that list from what I've heard.

Dolphy played sax.

Refer doesn't count...no worse for you than caffeine.

[Pgraves]

Cannonball
Not from what I have been told by an eyewitness

[Swingtone]

Clifford Brown

Yes, he set the example...but then ironically died young anyway.... So very tragic.

Look (and listen)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovafg_3PZbs

Or even better (most of the time the original is better):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDbrxLz20JY

And just look at how young the bespectacled sax player is--Benny Golson, the tune's composer....

[Mope]

If reefer doesn't count, could we include Louis Armstrong?

[sonnymobleytrane]

If you're gonna include refer

Lawrence Welk?

[Pgraves]

Cannonball
Not from what I have been told by an eyewitness. At least later in his career.

[Jonathan C.]

Coltrane did for a while, but then went cold turkey....

[hakukani]

but I guess Cannonball ate in excess! LOL

Nah, he was just big boned.;)

[Swampcabbage]

Coltrane did for a while, but then went cold turkey....

Deleted comment.

[SaxJazz12]

Lawrence Welk?

Yeah, but his show is a lot more entertaining when you're stoned...or so I've heard.

[sonnymobleytrane]

Nah, he was just big boned.;)

Nat once said "He's not heavy; he's my brother."

[Swampcabbage]

Yeah, but his show is a lot more entertaining when you're stoned...or so I've heard.

Deleted comment.

[sonnymobleytrane]

Yeah, but his show is a lot more entertaining when you're stoned...or so I've heard.

That's what my grandparents said. :)

[Watsonp143]

Not from what I have been told by an eyewitness. At least later in his career.

I never heard that Ball did anything but smoke grass. BTW-Who gives a ***? Why don't we have a thread for giants of medicine or giants of law? Why do we perpetuate this tired ****?

[Swampcabbage]

I never heard that Ball did anything but smoke grass. BTW-Who gives a ****? Why don't we have a thread for giants of medicine or giants of law? Why do we perpetuate this tired ********?

Excellent point.

[tenor71363]

Let's not forget Louis Armstrong.

[RootyTootoot]

Let's not forget Louis Armstrong.

Just to clarify, i presume you're responding to the last few posts rather than the thread title..(??)

[CiaranAudio]

I never heard that Ball did anything but smoke grass. BTW-Who gives a ****? Why don't we have a thread for giants of medicine or giants of law? Why do we perpetuate this tired ********?

No kidding.

Musicians aren't the only ones in professions lending themselves to using.

[tenor71363]

Just to clarify, i presume you're responding to the last few posts rather than the thread title..(??)

What is the definition of "excess" in this thread?

[Kritavi]

For example one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Medical Institute was a 30+ year closet dope fiend.

[CardinalRule]

Marian McPartland
Mary Lou Williams

[Dog Pants]

Why not a thread titled

"Sax Players who funded their horn and mouthpiece obsessions by setting up a speed lab in the basement studio?"

or

""Hydroponics, and the real reason why Dexter played so far behind the beat?"

or

"How to nail those up-tempo tunes with the assistance of modern chemistry?"


Who gives a toss what they did on their own time???

Many of the most famous people in history had some weird stuff going on in their private lives. Catherine the Great was an avid equestrienne. Elton John had a wife. Even sax players have some really weird peculiarities.

I have it on good authority that one of the most famous of all sax players, more famous than Bird or Trane, couldn't get through a day without having someone shove their hand up his butt!!!



For those members only interested in "tee totalling", clean as a whistle, sax giants, there's a section of the forum devoted to this already.


http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=89

Just kidding. ;):D;):D

[Mope]

I never heard that Ball did anything but smoke grass. BTW-Who gives a ****? Why don't we have a thread for giants of medicine or giants of law? Why do we perpetuate this tired ********?

Well, I was realizing that probably all of my favorite players were drug addicts for at least part of their careers, not that it matters, but it is interesting.

It brings up the question of how drug use and creativity are related, and it would be good to know that there were more than a handful of famous Jazz artists that were clean.

It seems to me that we perpetuate tired ******** in most threads.

Of course we cannot forget Louis, if reefer doesn't count.

If you've heard about it, its excess.

[jmathesonjr]

I do not think Benny Goodman used any thing. I have not heard of Dizzy using alcohol or drugs to excess. I thought Ellington smoked pot. I don't think Harry Carney used. I want to add Jimmy Heath, but I really don't know anything about his personal life. I think Brecker could be added here as well. I also associate Billy Strayhorn with the non-users.

[Dog Pants]

Why not just remember them for their music???

[mike713]

Sonny Rollins came clean and has been for about 50 years

[mike713]

what about Joe Henderson? did he use or drink a lot?

[sonnymobleytrane]

This thread can't go anywhere good.....How bout it mods?

[Razzy]

I think the only name worth mention at all on this subject is Clifford Brown. Clean and humble as can be, his entire life. The point here was that he lived pure in an impure world. Few people on the planet, let alone jazz musicians, can admit the same when the old reaper comes knocking.

[Dog Pants]

Sonny Rollins came clean and has been for about 50 years

I saw Sonny on Sunday night at the Sydney Opera House. First time he's been here, and first time I've seen him play.

When he shuffled on stage, I was shocked. He's pushing 100 I know, but even so, to see one of your heroes stooped and obviously having difficulty getting around is still a shock. I had no idea. Sonny must have had a hip replacement or knee surgery?

Anyway, he proceeded to play with a volume and intensity that just blew everyone away. 2.5 hours or more, non stop!

I t was so overpowering, that at times, you wanted an intermission just to collect you wits and take it all in. And not one altissimo scream in the whole performance either.

To hear anyone play with such sustained intensity is amazing. To witness a 78 year old man outplay and outlast cats 1/3 his age was just jaw dropping.

What an inspiration, both as a musician and a human being.

[Dog Pants]

Nat once said "He's not heavy; he's my brother."

LOL.

Do you remember that Adderly tune where Nat starts off singing

"I'm gonna sing a song for you....and Cannonball's gonna play you a thing or two....we're gonna have some fun now, me and all the band....learnin' from each other, while we do our thing...."

Then they go into the head.

"Na Na Naaaa, gonna have a good time....Hey Hey Hey!"

[sonnymobleytrane]

LOL.

Do you remember that Adderly tune where Nat starts off singing

"I'm gonna sing a song for you....and Cannonball's gonna play you a thing or two....we're gonna have some fun now, me and all the band....learnin' from each other, while we do our thing...."

Then they go into the head.

"Na Na Naaaa, gonna have a good time....Hey Hey Hey!"

I never heard that, but whenever Cannonball spoke during a vamp or intro on record it was pretty funny. Thinking about Cannonball in Japan and Fun then Games on the Mercy Mercy Mercy album.

[themacintrasher]

What about Dolphy?, I heard he didn`t use drugs (cant remember where I heard that though, which is why I am questioning it) Just ordered a book about him so I suppose I`ll find out in due course.

Didn't help him not die young, though.

[BarrySachs]

I want to add Jimmy Heath, but I really don't know anything about his personal life. I think Brecker could be added here as well. I also associate Billy Strayhorn with the non-users.

Two Philly guys and a Pittsburgh guy. Well, Jimmy Heath was in jail 50 or so years ago for drugs, and Brecker spent the better part of the '70s messed up with blow. Strayhorn drank and smoked his way to an early grave.

Sorry.:(

[silverselmer]

I agree, although sonny is hardly pushing 100. When I saw him last June he walked onto the stage slowly, but once he started playing he was moving around like he was 30 again...

[AntonVonWebern]

What about Dolphy?, I heard he didn`t use drugs (cant remember where I heard that though, which is why I am questioning it) Just ordered a book about him so I suppose I`ll find out in due course.

....................................

Didn't help him not die young, though.

He was a diabetic (what is your comment implying?), according to one version of the events the stereotype that jazz musicians do drugs was responsible for a misdiagnosis (he went into a diabetic coma but the doctor/hospital didnt realise, thought it was drug related).

Its on the Wiki page about him (the other version of events is that he was given too strong a dose of insulin)

[whaler]

Cannonball

I got to hear Cannonball at a dinner theater and I remember the audience giving him drinks.
I don't know if he drank to excess, but it didn't slow him down at all (at least that night).

[Coolie]

Johnny Hodges. He was only addicted to sandwiches - as far as I know.

[Dog Pants]

Sonny Rollins, interviewed yesterday after his "one off" Australian performance, talks about getting into and out of heroin addiction, as well as other stuff.

Nothing new but it's great to listen to Sonny speak, his phrasing and tone and gestures. The way he carries himself, etc. A real gentleman.

Read the transcript, or go to page right and click on the video.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2262809.htm

[hgiles]

... I think Brecker could be added here as well....

I am pretty sure Brecker was heavy into some heavy things most of his adult life. Maybe he quit as his health declined, but a friend of mine that recorded with Brecker imparted this info to me.

[Agent27]

I agree, although sonny is hardly pushing 100. When I saw him last June he walked onto the stage slowly, but once he started playing he was moving around like he was 30 again...

Yeah, Sonny is 77. Still a ways off from pushing 100. If you want to see an old sax player look at James Moody who is 83 and has had no dropoff.

[DetroitDave]

Gigi Gryce

[dave2sax]

Never quite understood how any of these guys could play so well while so stoned. If I tried that in my younger days ;) it would have been a mess after a few bong hits and a 6-pack of Black Label, let alone the kind of stuff these guys did.

I saw Brandon Fields play in LA maybe 12 years ago? His trumpet player was Walt Fowler - I really liked this guy's playing. Brandon was doing a meet and greet in the lobby with his wife immediately after the show as people were exiting. Walt Fowler showed up and man, that dude was on some serious junk. Brandon wasn't too happy. But I just couldn't believe how Fowler could have played the set while in that condition, he could barely stand up. How can these guys even play while so messed up? I hope Walt has got cleaned up since then, that guy had some serious chops.

[Budget Explosion]

There is a "world music" record label called ARC Music (not to be confused with the publishing company that owns the Willie Dixon catalog) and on their CDs it says that the music was created without the influence of Drugs or Alcohol. However, it doesn't mention that the label is sponsored by the Church of Scientology.

[Pgraves]

I never heard that Ball did anything but smoke grass. BTW-Who gives a ***? Why don't we have a thread for giants of medicine or giants of law? Why do we perpetuate this tired ****?
You don't have to be interested, but I guess you are because you are reading and responding, and perpetuating.
I have heard one account regarding Cannonball, and simply mentioned it.
I cannot account for what you have heard or not heard, or assume that your not hearing anything else means that it doesn't exist.
It's a simple discussion, what's the big deal.

[Pgraves]

Why not just remember them for their music???
Facts are facts.
Remembering one fact does not prevent remembering another.

[CiaranAudio]

I saw Sonny on Sunday night at the Sydney Opera House. First time he's been here, and first time I've seen him play.

When he shuffled on stage, I was shocked. He's pushing 100 I know, but even so, to see one of your heroes stooped and obviously having difficulty getting around is still a shock. I had no idea. Sonny must have had a hip replacement or knee surgery?

Anyway, he proceeded to play with a volume and intensity that just blew everyone away. 2.5 hours or more, non stop!

I t was so overpowering, that at times, you wanted an intermission just to collect you wits and take it all in. And not one altissimo scream in the whole performance either.

To hear anyone play with such sustained intensity is amazing. To witness a 78 year old man outplay and outlast cats 1/3 his age was just jaw dropping.

What an inspiration, both as a musician and a human being.

I live for stuff like this.

[Watsonp143]

You don't have to be interested, but I guess you are because you are reading and responding, and perpetuating.
I have heard one account regarding Cannonball, and simply mentioned it.
I cannot account for what you have heard or not heard, or assume that your not hearing anything else means that it doesn't exist.
It's a simple discussion, what's the big deal.

The big deal is that it is someone's life. Cannonball is not around to defend himself. What is important to you? Someone's music or what they did off the bandstand. I have never heard that Julian was a user of heavy drugs and if he was I couldn't care less. It was his business. It seems from your comments it's your business as well.

[jrvinson45]

As far as I know, Dave Brubeck is Mr. Clean.

[Pgraves]

The big deal is that it is someone's life. Cannonball is not around to defend himself. What is important to you? Someone's music or what they did off the bandstand. I have never heard that Julian was a user of heavy drugs and if he was I couldn't care less. It was his business. It seems from your comments it's your business as well.


People are interested in the personal details of famous people.

"Someone's music or what they did off the bandstand. "
Is both not allowed as an option?
I've heard that there is even a entire genre of book devoted to this sort of information. They are called biographies. Lay off the personal needling, I never said it was "my business", it's just a topic of discussion.

If you couldn't care less, then it should not matter if he was or wasn't or if someone says or writes about it. But you do care, that's why you jump on a comment that included no sort of judgement, but conflicts with your idea of what should be allowed as information about Cannonball.
Possibly you don't know all there is to know about Cannonball. I know I don't. Now you have heard a new piece of information that only contradicts what you have "never heard". Your choice to evaluate the data, or attack the source, and the ignore the information.
Feel free to get the last word. I'm done.

[Watsonp143]

I like Cannonball Adderly. I knew his brother Nat and a lot of the musicians that played with him. I have the utmost respect for him as a musician and as a man. I feel like that about about most of my jazz heroes. I feel that their personal life is theirs. Some things should remain personal. There has never been a great deal of respect given to jazz and to jazz musicians, at least not from society at large. I always felt that we musicians should at least respect the lives of the people who helped to create this beautiful music. I don't mean to tweak anyone's nose with my comments. I just feel very strongly about this.

[Mope]

Well, I count about a dozen.
It's not a very long list. One might conclude that either creative people like drugs or drugs can help people create. As someone with a substance abuse history, I was never able to learn or create much while UTI. I started learning Saxophone after getting clean.
What's really amazing is what these artists could do IN SPITE of their vices.
No disrespect was intended and I do not believe there was any harm done.

[quackattack]

Bud Freeman "swingin' without mezz"

[Swampcabbage]

Watson has the right idea here guys. We have a tendency to play with these things in our head and sensationalize some of this stuff. Some people even go so far as to think that some of this stuff is a prerequisite for being good or great (which is complete and utter nonsense, right).

Of course we are all curious about the personal habits of these great artists. But, let's also keep in perspective what was really going on then too. These were, for the majority, black men and women performing in a rascist society in public and travelling across America in some miserable conditions. Sacrificing every part of the "American Dream" because they believed in improving the quality of their art at a relentless level. Even the white people caught a little of the flack for performing this music.

We can talk more about it as if it was like the steroids scandal. However, take a look at how easy it would've been to get caught up in this. Medical services were archaic by today's standards. Trying to get help in any city or town for a traveller was nearly impossible; especially if you were a black jazz musician. "H" was plentiful during and after WWII (a very well documented epidemic that only finally caught the front page of Life and similar magazines when it finally hit the white suburbs in the 50's).

Heck, one of the reasons NA was finally able to maintain some of it's "anonymity" was because white lawmen, doctors, judges, and other professionals either were addicted themselves or had relatives like mothers and wives and daughters who were addicted.

And this doesn't even hit on any personal issues that we can all gather up when we're trying to come of age. Many of these great artists were on the road when the rest of their age group was worrying about proms and date nights.

So, unless we're going to cover, in detail, the complete dynamic of the times and the U.S. deal to look the other way while the mob was pushing "H" into the innercities; let's let it sit, huh? And then, instead of naming names and pointing fingers and repeating hearsays. Why don't we talk about WHY people would feel the need to use and still do. And what we may be able to do about it.

On a personal note (and yeah, it's personal and none of anyone's business but it is the only thing I can say I am truly proud of other than my daughter and the ocassional well played note); that is, I just celebrated 11 years clean last Saturday. So when Mope says these people managed to accomplish great things IN SPITE of any personal shortcomings; I know exactly what he means. I've only been able to accomplish the mediocre at best.

If I had only had half the brain to ignore this stuff when I was 10 (and now).

[Teacher]

Herb Schwartz was (and still is) clean and sober. He says the music gets him high enough.

[Bloo Dog]

Never quite understood how any of these guys could play so well while so stoned. If I tried that in my younger days ;) it would have been a mess after a few bong hits and a 6-pack of Black Label, let alone the kind of stuff these guys did.



The truth is that they didn't. Listen to some of Bird's later recordings. They were sloppy and repetitive. Even he admitted that he didn't play his best when he was high.

If you listen to some of Trane's Bethlehem recordings, you'll hear a guy that was NOT at the top of his game.

Many musicians who came after these guys thought "Oh, I've gotta do horse in order to be any good." Getz, Trane, Bird, et al., didn't partake because it gave them insight or inspiration. They did it to relieve stress, stress from being cooped up on a bus for twelve hours at a time, and being cooped up in seedy hotels where they couldn't show their faces because they were black, stress from having to enter the establishment from below stage or from the back of the building in order not to offend their white audiences. (Granted, Getz was not black-- and neither was Zoot-- but they did their fair share of road work, and they experienced their fair share of stress).

Add to the mix the fact that their next gig wasn't always assured. The next week was not promised to them. They constantly lived from hand-to-mouth in their early years. When they finally made a name for themselves and had a reliable income, their habits became larger because they could afford more buzz.

This was (and still is) true of many many entertainers' early and later years. What starts out as an attempt at therapeutic self-medication becomes worse with time, either because of an enabling increase of income brought by success, or because of a drastic DECREASE of income and opportunity brought by age and changes in musical styles to which they could not adapt.

[whaler]

As far as I know, Dave Brubeck is Mr. Clean.

For some reason that seemed obvious to me.

[jrvinson45]

For some reason that seemed obvious to me.

What am I if not transparent?

[jrvinson45]

The truth is that they didn't. Listen to some of Bird's later recordings. They were sloppy and repetitive. Even he admitted that he didn't play his best when he was high.

If you listen to some of Trane's Bethlehem recordings, you'll hear a guy that was NOT at the top of his game.

Many musicians who came after these guys thought "Oh, I've gotta do horse in order to be any good." Getz, Trane, Bird, et al., didn't partake because it gave them insight or inspiration. They did it to relieve stress, stress from being cooped up on a bus for twelve hours at a time, and being cooped up in seedy hotels where they couldn't show their faces because they were black, stress from having to enter the establishment from below stage or from the back of the building in order not to offend their white audiences. (Granted, Getz was not black-- and neither was Zoot-- but they did their fair share of road work, and they experienced their fair share of stress).

Add to the mix the fact that their next gig wasn't always assured. The next week was not promised to them. They constantly lived from hand-to-mouth in their early years. When they finally made a name for themselves and had a reliable income, their habits became larger because they could afford more buzz.

This was (and still is) true of many many entertainers' early and later years. What starts out as an attempt at therapeutic self-medication becomes worse with time, either because of an enabling increase of income brought by success, or because of a drastic DECREASE of income and opportunity brought by age and changes in musical styles to which they could not adapt.

Well said, Bloo Dog.

[marcusb]

uhhhhhhhh Kenny G??

[jrvinson45]

uhhhhhhhh Kenny G??

Marcusb,
The subject of the thread is "Jazz Giants..."

[alsdiego]

This is an extremely complex issue, involving not only cultural issues as has been pointed out, but mental health issues as well. For example, it has been postulated that there may be a connection between bipolar disorder (manic/depressive syndrome) and creativity, with creativity being especially pronounced during the manic phase. If you have ever dealt with people with this type of disorder, you know that self-medication is almost universal.

[sideC]

Watson has the right idea here guys. We have a tendency to play with these things in our head and sensationalize some of this stuff. Some people even go so far as to think that some of this stuff is a prerequisite for being good or great (which is complete and utter nonsense, right).

Of course we are all curious about the personal habits of these great artists. But, let's also keep in perspective what was really going on then too. These were, for the majority, black men and women performing in a rascist society in public and travelling across America in some miserable conditions. Sacrificing every part of the "American Dream" because they believed in improving the quality of their art at a relentless level. Even the white people caught a little of the flack for performing this music.

We can talk more about it as if it was like the steroids scandal. However, take a look at how easy it would've been to get caught up in this. Medical services were archaic by today's standards. Trying to get help in any city or town for a traveller was nearly impossible; especially if you were a black jazz musician. "H" was plentiful during and after WWII (a very well documented epidemic that only finally caught the front page of Life and similar magazines when it finally hit the white suburbs in the 50's).

Heck, one of the reasons NA was finally able to maintain some of it's "anonymity" was because white lawmen, doctors, judges, and other professionals either were addicted themselves or had relatives like mothers and wives and daughters who were addicted.

And this doesn't even hit on any personal issues that we can all gather up when we're trying to come of age. Many of these great artists were on the road when the rest of their age group was worrying about proms and date nights.

So, unless we're going to cover, in detail, the complete dynamic of the times and the U.S. deal to look the other way while the mob was pushing "H" into the innercities; let's let it sit, huh? And then, instead of naming names and pointing fingers and repeating hearsays. Why don't we talk about WHY people would feel the need to use and still do. And what we may be able to do about it.

On a personal note (and yeah, it's personal and none of anyone's business but it is the only thing I can say I am truly proud of other than my daughter and the ocassional well played note); that is, I just celebrated 11 years clean last Saturday. So when Mope says these people managed to accomplish great things IN SPITE of any personal shortcomings; I know exactly what he means. I've only been able to accomplish the mediocre at best.

If I had only had half the brain to ignore this stuff when I was 10 (and now).


Great post.

And CONGRATULATIONS ON 11 YEARS CLEAN BRO!!!!!!!:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::D:D:D:D

[sideC]

I like Cannonball Adderly. I knew his brother Nat and a lot of the musicians that played with him. I have the utmost respect for him as a musician and as a man. I feel like that about about most of my jazz heroes. I feel that their personal life is theirs. Some things should remain personal. There has never been a great deal of respect given to jazz and to jazz musicians, at least not from society at large. I always felt that we musicians should at least respect the lives of the people who helped to create this beautiful music. I don't mean to tweak anyone's nose with my comments. I just feel very strongly about this.


Thanks for sharing!

[namenotfound06]

I do not think Benny Goodman used any thing. I have not heard of Dizzy using alcohol or drugs to excess. I thought Ellington smoked pot. I don't think Harry Carney used. I want to add Jimmy Heath, but I really don't know anything about his personal life. I think Brecker could be added here as well. I also associate Billy Strayhorn with the non-users.
Brecker used heroin back in the day.

[namenotfound06]

what about Joe Henderson? did he use or drink a lot?
I've heard that Joe did a good amount of heroin to.

[sycc]

Tim Price is a great player that doesn't use!!!! He has a outstanding reputation in the area we live in!!!!

[JackThe7th]

Oley!

Sorry, just noticed what I wrote had already been said...

and now for a short tune!

ladadadidalabibobopdibalobehumhumtoot!

[Swampcabbage]

Great post.

And CONGRATULATIONS ON 11 YEARS CLEAN BRO!!!!!!!:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::D:D:D:D

Thanks. Still going strong. It's nice not to have to maintain "lush fund" in this economy too. ;)

[Bloo Dog]

Tim Price is a great player that doesn't use!!!! He has a outstanding reputation in the area we live in!!!!


Price strikes me as the kind of guy who doesn't like losing his edge.