Dave Guardala New York Series DG502BN Tenor Sax

[VilleK.]

How is D.G. New York series sax? Does anyone have experiences on that?
I´m asking this, because I´ve had an excellent offer on N.Y. but I´ve also thought about getting a new Keilwerth EX90 or used Yanagisawa T991. How does the playability of Dave Guardala differ from Keilwerth, Yanagisawa and Yamaha? Yamahas are claimed to have - aside with Yanas - good ergonomics and excellent playability. And how durable are guardalas? How good will they stay in adjustment?

Please, be so kind to send some replys.

Thanks!

Ville

[conrath]

As an owner of all three, I have to say the following...

The Guardala's are fantastic horns. The Keilwerth SX90 (EX90 is lower model) is a fantastic horn. The 991 is a fantastic horn.

The Keilwerth is the most open sounding horn of the three (the bow is huge) and built for larger hands. It will probably also retain the highest value. I do have an issue with the lacquer, however, in that I felt it was a bit easy to wear (namely on the palm keys). I really like the adjustable palm keys. They tend to stay in excellent adjustment. Very mouthpiece friendly.

The Guardala's tone is a little more centered than the SX90, but very similar in sound. Huge! They seem to have a little more resistance than the Keilwerth...probably due to the neck design. Mouthpiece selection is more difficult with these horns. It is set up for a little smaller hand than the Keilwerth (but not for small hands by any means). It has a very large low end, but not as large as the Keilwerth. Market prices do not hold up as well as the Keilwerth. The two examples I have stay in adjustment very well, and the lacquer has held up great. (I treat my horns like my babies).My favorite horn right now.

991. Nice horn. Very Asian IMO. Does not compare in regards to the large sound of the two above. Very focused, very clean, much mellower than the DG or K...tight in a word. Intonation is nearly as good as you can get. I don't want to use the word inflexible, but that is what comes to mind in the style of music I play (R&B). Ergonomics are great, designed well and great for smaller hands. Good resale, but still not as good as the Keilwerth in my opinion.

Get ahold of them and play them is all you can do. You can't go wrong if you choose any of them.

If you want more depth and character then stay with the SX90 or DG.

[VilleK.]

Thanks Conrath! You´ve been most helpful!

I thought that this would become a monologue... I´m glad it didn´t.
Yes. They all are presumably very good. Unfortunately I have very little opportunities to try them out here, f.ex. there are no Guardalas here in Finland!
I have received a very good offer for the Guardala new york tenor sax and it seems to be in excellent condition. I´m just wondering if it has less comfortable key-system than what theYanis and Yamahas have.
How difficult is the mouthpiece selection and what do you mean by that. Would you have some mouthpiece advices. It is hard for me to believe, that they would be picky on mouthpieces. Can it really be so?
I wonder why they don´t hold up their price...
I´m quite sure that they all might fit well for my mileage. But I have been really interested in Keilwerth and now also Guardala. Their character and deep, dark sound would most likely be right for me.
I have began to look for more information on guardalas at the SOTW, which is here. There seems to be quite much things written about them.
I Wonder if there is an official Dave Guardala website somewhere.

[Morry]

You may not be able to find Guardalas, but you might have more luck looking for a B&S 2001 series horn. This is the horn that the Guardala is based on. From just looking at them, I can't confirm any differences, other than engraving.

[VilleK.]

Morry, there are no B&S 2001 series available here in Finland....

[Morry]

Contact VMI, the producer of B&S horns. Their website lists a distributor in Finland, so there must be horns there.

http://www.medusa-saxophones.com/agents/agents.htm

[conrath]

VilleK

If the Guardala is truly a New York model (with Twin Towers engraving) I say go for it. Very hard to come by, and if the price is right you can't go wrong. It is one of those models that will hold it's value VERY well. Just make sure to order some 3M anti-tarnish strips and slip one in the case. Since the triple plated silver keywork isn't lacquered you'll need them, otherwise the keys will turn a brown patina. Now we CAN'T have that!

And do yourself a favor...get a Hiscox case for it.

Mouthpieces...I am currently switching between a stainless steel Lawton 8* and a very rough vintage (if possible) Wolf Tayne. Suprisingly, the Wolf Tayne really cooks! I also find that the SR Technologies PRO plays very well on this horn.

I have gone through the Morgans, Vandorens, Runyon Jaguar, Jody Jazz HR and metal pieces, Zagars, Ponzol metals and a Guardala just to name a few, and found the pieces above to offer the best response/intonation.
(Hey, I CAN do this mouthpiece thing right...no kids!!)

It's a dark horn to start with, so a bit of a baffle is a good idea. Too wide open a chamber makes the horn way too dark.

The prices don't seem to hold up mainly because players haven't put their hands on them to try them out...definitely not because the playability, but more so the name recognition. Kind of like SML. Guardalas are fantastic and will run circles around most horns out there.

Not to mention, just plain pretty to look at!

Keep me posted no matter what you choose!

John

[ErEr]

If B&S horns are not available in Finland, perhaps you will find them in Sweden.

http://www.windcorp.se/

[VilleK.]

Thanks again (for links and information)!

Conrath, you´re propably right about the tarnishing silver... I try see what it is like.

But why would I get a Hiscox case? Isn´t the original good?

Are they more than one New York Series Guardalas? Are there Guardala New York Series and New York Signature Series? Or are they exactly the same sax? I´m not sure if the sax, that I´ve been offered has those N.Y.C. engravings as the DG502BN does. The sax that I´ve been offered is 4 years old and bought brand new.

Thanks!

Ville

[conrath]

http://www.saxophones.co.uk/index2.html

This should give you a heads up on the different Guardala models.

I found that if the horn comes in the SKB case it does not fit very well (or at least good enought for me). The Hiscox is a perfect fit and will protect the horn very well. If you decide to keep the SKB case (if that is what it comes in) then make sure to add some padding so it fits snug.

[VilleK.]

Thanks!

Well, I did some research and.... It doesn´t seem to be Guardala New York Signature Series DG502BN with those fancy engravings. I checked the engravings of those other Guardala models as well, but... The Guardala that I´ve been offered does have different "flower" ornament, than what other Guardalas have. It does have different engraving than Pro Custom Series, Artist Series and N.Y. Series. I wonder what it is. It has Dave Guardala New York U.S.A. engraved in the bell and some really nice flower-ish engravings too.

I´ve been also offered a Selmer Super Action silver-nickel tenor sax. There are now three saxophones that I have to choose from:
-Dave Guardala New York U.S.A. black nickel & silver keywork
-Selmer (Paris) Super Action 80 silver-nickel
-Yanagisawa T991

Oh this agony!

[conrath]

Well, I'm sure I can help out...

What style of music do you play?

What is the cost of those horns?

You can email me at conrath@alltel.net if you want to.

John

[VilleK.]

OK John. I´ll do that.

But here´s some more about this Guardala.

The bell of the sax has this engraving: Dave Guardala New York U.S.A.
I wonder if that U.S.A. in the bell means that the sax is made in the U.S.A? I know that Guardala saxophones are made in German (in the Keilwerth factory), but are there Guardala saxophone made in the U.S.A.? Is this the same thing as it is with Selmer (Selmer Paris - Selmer U.S.A)?

[conrath]

If you saw a picture of the serial number, the words "Made in Germany" will appear. I do not believe that production horns were made in the USA.

[VilleK.]

Thanks again!

Are there any Guardala student model or intermediate saxophones? Or are all Guardalas professional caliber saxophones?

And Conrath, You´ve got some mail.

[Balladeer]

VilleK.
That Guardala sounds just my DG 501BN black nickel tenor with silver plate keys and floral engraving on bell. I am very happy with this tenor.

[VilleK.]

The information that I have found is that there are made only three different Guardala models: Artist, Pro Custom and New York. So the sax that I´ve been offered must be one of them. Most likely either Artist or Pro Custom. I don´t believe that it is the New York model. Perhaps it is the Pro Custom as you said it might be.

[Morry]

I believe the differences are:

Artist - 72% copper in the alloy
Pro Custom - 85% copper (don't know of any other differences, but may be some)
NY model - same as Pro Custom except for engraving

[MB-913]

conrath

I'm using a Guardala Pro Artist DG-500BN Black Nickel tenor.
You said Mouthpiece selection is more difficult for this horn.
** Could you please share your experience what MPC (METAL, I like metal) good for this horn?

PS: I'm using a refaced Otto Link STM 7* for my Guardala. It sound very nice (refaced by Mojo Bari) & easy to handle, sound like a vintage Florida Link. I also have a Vandoren V-16 (T-75), also nice piece but not play as good as the refaced Link.

V-16 sounds more Rock & Fusion if work with my Guardala. I consider my DG-500BN sounds more brillance & a little bright. It better work with the refaced Link to balance the tone. Now, it's at the right edge. I can make very Dexter if use Hemke reed.

Everybody,
We are LUCKY now. Go to this link download the sound clip. You can listen to all these horn sound - Guardala N.Y, Custom, Yana, Mark VI, Series III, II, Ref 54, Ref 36, Keilwerth ....etc.


It's a Japanese site. Don't worry about the characters, just listen to the sound clip.

http://mpcroom.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Inst/Tenor.html

[tonyg]

MB-913,

Thanks for sending the sound clips, is it the same player, same mpc setup for each horn. Some of the recordings sound as if they were done in a small room and some in an open area.

I was also wondering what instrument the BS sound clip was, is this a B&S Tenor and if so what finish.

Tony

[MB-913]

Tony

Yes, the player said he use same mouthpeice Vandoren Java to test all the horn (but no mentioned reed).

[VilleK.]

Is there a bigger column of air needed to be pushed through the Guardala than with f.ex. Keilwerth? Is easier to keep the Keilwerth steadier than Guardala when blowing long notes ?

The parts for Guardala may not be so easy to come by, right?. Perhaps it is easier than with old vintage saxophones. What if I´ll need new pads for it? How available are they? Might B&S 2001 sax pads (and other parts) be interchangeable?

How well does the black nickel plating stay when the lacquer has worn off?

Does anyone have anything less positive to say about Guardala saxophones?

I see that there´s also a Guardala Earth-Tone model. I wonder how it differs from Artist, New York and Pro Custom. Are the differences really clear or only slightly noticeable?

Thanks.

[Morry]

I would guess that EVERYTHING from the 2001 series B&S is interchangeable with the Guardala. It is virtually the same horn.

[VilleK.]

I´m 186cm tall. My thumb is a bit over 6cm long, middle finger is nearly 9cm long and the two fingers in each side of the middle finger are about 7.5cm long. I really hope that my hands are big enough to reach the keys of the Guardala - if I´m going to get myself one of those...

[VilleK.]

Hmm... I have read about opinions of the Guardala (in SOTW) and one thing that seems to be troubling players is the position for the Right Hand side Bb, C & E. Especially the right hand side Bb key seems to be TOO low for most people. That may happen to me as well. Maybe my hands aren´t big enough.... Perhaps the Keilwerth SX90 would have better playability, because of all the adjustable parts...

[VilleK.]

I did some listening some time ago in the following address: http://mpcroom.hp.infoseek.co.jp/Inst/Tenor.html

Here´s some of my notions of Guardala 501BN, Selmer SA80II(GL) and Keilwerth SX90(GL).

Selmer Super Action 80 II (GL) had a really nice upper register and bottom sounds were convincing. It sounded very nice to me. Would suit my mileage.

Guardala 501 (BN) was very DARK and had a HUGE sound! But the upper register didn´t come so clear to me... When I heard it for the first time - I was scared because of the sound... So robust, big, dark... And modern? I would have really like to hear more of the upper register. If I´m lucky, I might find sound clips of the D.G. here in SOTW. I hope I would.

Keilwerth SX90 (GL) fell nicely in between Selmer and Guardala. Not as dark/huge as Guardala, seemed to be more like the Selmer. SX90 was the one that really cought my interest.

I listened alsoYani T991 and Yamaha YTS875. They didn´t sound bad either, but... Not as pleasing as Selmer and Keilwerth. Well, that´s just my opinion.

Maybe I should listen more - if there are - sound clips of the above mentioned saxes in the SOTW.

I´ll try to listen as much as I can and draw my final conclusion from that. No further questions about the looks or playability...

I KNOW that the sounds of the above mentioned saxophones will vary, depending on many things, such as oral things, embouchure and equipment: mouthpiece (Vandoren Java was used in the above mentioned saxes), reeds, perhaps even the ligature.

[VilleK.]

Dark sax that Guardala.... Maybe a bright mouthpiece would help to make it brighter. I wouldn´t like it to be overly dark. It seems to me, that a mouthpiece with high baffle and small bore (?) would be brighter than mpc with low baffle and large bore. I´m not sure if I remember this right, but does the small bore make the mouthpiece brighter than large bore? And maybe I should go for medium facing and medium tip opening
What would be your recommendation for a bright (ebonite/hard rubber/metal) mpc for Guardala? Any suggestions? Anyone? Perhaps un-filed #2-3 reeds would help to brighten it up...?

[MB-913]

Guardala sounds Dark???

No, my Guardala Pro Artist DG-500BN Black Nickel tenor sounds very brilliance and fairly bright. However, not the bright sound like Series III.

I mainly using a refaced Metal Link STM (Refaced by Mojo Bari) on my Guardala. This MPC is very flexible & easy to play, can make very similar sound with a good vintage Florida Link. For Jazz, I use this piece with ZZ #3 reed (sometime Hemke #3). For more contemporary music, I use V-16 (T-75), that's a good choice but more modern sound.

Listen again the sound clip and compare with Ref 54. Which is more dark? For me, Ref 54 sound in sound clip is very stuffy & boring, lack of tone color. That is a dark sound.

Check this test report about the DG-500BN:

http://www.saxophones.co.uk/tenor_sax_tests.htm

[VilleK.]

I didn´t listen much to other saxes, because I can get (=afford) only one of these:
-Guardala 500/501BN
-Selmer SA80 (I, II)
-Yanagisawa T991

Maybe - and most likely - I´ll get the Guardala... It seems to be in good condition: only one little dent (1,5cm across) in the bottom, doesn´t affect on sound or tuning. 99% original finish is intact (some missing in thumb rest and srap ring). Seller seems to be very reliable; he is a pro musician who´s not selling the sax because of money. He bought a different horn (SX90R) and fell in love with it and doesn´t play the Guardala so often anymore. I have a good feeling about this....

[VilleK.]

Are there any interchangeable/alternate necks for Guardala?

[VilleK.]

And more importantly, what would be a good hard rubber/ebonite mpc to brighten the sound of Guardala? Many have recommended metal mpcs, but I´m looking for a bright hr/e mpc.

[Morry]

I recently tried a Morgan Excalibur piece, and found it to be very bright, but still full. You might want to give one of those a try.

[VilleK.]

Thanks.
Morry (or anyone else), how would you compare the Morgan "Excalibur" to Otto Link "Tone Edge" ebonite mpc? Have you tried those latter mpcs? What about RIA hr mpcs?

[Morry]

Sorry, but my experience with HR tenor pieces is very limited. I've always played metal pieces on tenor, mainly because they tend to feel more like an alto piece in my mouth, and alto was my primary instrument. That's why I wanted to try the Morgan EL, as it has a small footprint because of the thin chamber walls. Unfortunately, this also is what made the piece a little "buzzy" for me. My tone is naturally on the bright side anyway, so it didn't work for me.

The only way to know is to buy the horn, and start the mpc search.

[VilleK.]

Thanks, Morry.

Hmm... Yes. You´re absolutely right! What works for other people might not work for me and vice versa...

There´s a big BUT.... There are NO mpcs nowhere near here. I would have to jump in a buss and take a two day trip to a music shop that has a fair mpc collection - and even it doesn´t have much to offer: a few (very few) Otto Links, some Vandorens (mainly for classical music) - and even less mpcs for tenor! Not to mention that they are really expencive here.

I´ve thought about getting one of these (or something else):
Otto Link hard rubber/ebonite #6-#7*
RIA #5*-6* (may be a bit difficult to get)
Meyer HR 7M-10M
Morgan Excalibur

I´m beginning to lean towards the Otto Link hr/e mpc...
But I´ll try to do some more research and follow my instinct.

[Morry]

There are other forum members, I'm sure, that live in your neck of the woods. I would suggest that, once you buy the horn, you post an ad in the "Equipment for sale" thread offering to purchase one of a shortened list of pieces. You can usually get a piece from a SOTW guy for 1/2 of its original price and, if you don't like it, you can usually resell it and get most all of your money back. By buying from someone in, or near Finland, you can reduce the shipping costs.

[VilleK.]

Hmm.... Yeah, maybe. Let´s see, here´s an example situation:
I´m going to buy a Vandoren V16 T75 metal mpc that costs about 250euros (=new) used from someone in USA for 150e. Then there´d be about 20e shipping + custom duty (approx. 3%) + VAT (22%). It would cost 213,6e and that´s approx. 36e cheaper than what it would cost new. BUT I couldn´t be sure if it would be in good condition. Not much cheaper... Perhaps I could find nice deals inside Europe. If I order anything from outside Europe, there will be custom duty and 22% VAT to pay...

[Morry]

An off topic question...Does Finland have any income tax?

[VilleK.]

I believe so. 22% from (nearly) everything that passes the border (comes inside).

[Morry]

But you don't have tax on the income (salary) you make, do you?

[VilleK.]

No. I´m a student and I don´t have a job where I could get any income - so no taxes either.

[Morry]

Never mind. I was just wondering if you have a 22% VAT, and Finland still taxes any income you might make from a job, if you had one.

[VilleK.]

Which one has a more quiet sounding keywork/machinery, Guardala (501) or Yanagisawa (T991)?

[VilleK.]

I bought the Guardala. It was - and still is - EXCELLENT!!! Well worth the money. The musician, who was selling it, played it a little and so did the saxophone tutor. Sax tutor didn´t know anything about the Guardala, but he said it was a nice horn - something he would´ve bought, if he would´ve needed a new tenor sax. Ergonomics are nice, sound is nice, overall condition very nice. It sounded very nice, much more pleasing than what I was expecting. VERY NICE!
But to be able to play it, I must first buy myself a mouthpiece, reeds, ligature and maybe some other acessory (I have a neck strap already).

Thanks again for all of you.

[VilleK.]

I´m still wondering what model my (black nickel plated) Guardala tenor sax might be. The serial number is 010xxx and it´s made in Germany (reads below the thumb hook). Has anyone any idea, what model it might be?

[VilleK.]

I have to withdraw my earlier statement, Guardala isn´t so dark after all. It might be darker then some asian saxes, but it isn´t DARK. I have to agree with others, who said that the Guardala is brilliance and has some brightness to it. Nice big, meaty sound but not Dark with capitol d. Very nice.

I got a Selmer S80 D ebonite mouthpiece with it´s original ligature and some old #2-2,5 Rico (style V) reeds from my saxophone tutor. I played it a little (about half an hour) with #2,5 reed. First I didn´t get anything out of it, then something very thin and irritating and after a while I could get some pure notes out of it - I had to adjust my lips/emcouchure a bit to play in tune. I had already studied saxophone playing in theory and I knew about different fingerings, moutpiece/reed/ligature position and things like that. I know that the Guardala is far better than what I can do with it at the moment, but hey, I´m just beginning to learn how to play the horn. I´m hooked!

[EL_Seano]

I'm lucky enough to own a Dave Guardala 501 BN tenor, which I'm VERY HAPPY with, but the 502 BN looks awesome.

[wonderfullymade]

i want a GOOD quality Dave Guardala TENOR SAX, but have no money or job, to afford a new one. I do however have a Selmer Mark7 ALTO sax, i'd be willing to trade. I really desire a Keilwerth sx90, but will settle for a Dave Guardala.
I have posted on saxquest website, my trade offer, and wanted to alert my fellow musician here on this forum.
please email me at insideoutbeauty@yahoo.com, any serious inquiries. Pic available upon request, and i'd like the same from u. I play gospel and jazz(in the church settings only), no big or little bands or club. I'm in dallas, tx. and would love it if respondants lived in my area, but not required.
however, the other option is selling my selmer...asking 1500.00.

i'm disappointed that the "major" online music stores don't carry Dave Guardala's sax, as they do other brands. and i'm even more disappointed not to have seen any listing on Ebay for them either.

My selmer do have visible scratches(from normal use), but over all, is in good condition; i mainly have play it on average, 2 or 3 times a year. i just have this desire to switch from alto to tenor, because of the sound. i want more from out of my music, and have come to love and respect the tenor sax as an individual who's head of house(within the sax family).

can anyone recommend other websites where i can post an Ad? im considering selling on ebay, but procrastinating, since i've not done something like this before. help a sista out, please?!

[wonderfullymade]

i changed my mind...want the cannonball stone series tenor, instead

[bfoster64]

More power to ya, but I own a B&S Allora tenor (which is the same sax as the Guardala) in an earthtone finish and I have played a bunch of Cannonball Stone Series horns and there is no comparison. The B&S/Guardala has better tone, action, and response in all registers. I highly recommend the Guardala or one of the other B&S stencil variants (e.g., Medusa, B&S 2001, Allora).

[bkiser]

CJS Earthtone tenors new B-stock at WWBW are less than $1300...you cannot beat that! I just got one today and its a very nice horn. Not aesthetically perfect, but acoustically pleasing!

[Ruediger Kramer]

I´m still wondering what model my (black nickel plated) Guardala tenor sax might be. The serial number is 010xxx and it´s made in Germany (reads below the thumb hook). Has anyone any idea, what model it might be?

if there is engraved GOLDBRASS it´s the 501, if not the 500...

[dstack79]

OK, I guess I hafta chime in now too even though this thread is all but dead...

I've played a silver plt'd Dave Guardala tenor for almost 10 years now. Here's my fast food review....

-Very beasty, buzzy, big sound. Many ppl compare it to Conns...
-Low register very open and thick
-Key work has kept its regulation very well. Only times it needed adjustment was when I harmed the horn by being a dumba$$, or wanted a customized feel.
-Keywork for pro horn "feels" average. not as light and nimble as Selmer, Yamaha or Keilwerth.
-It's well suited to louder music and projects well, but more difficult to get a "sweet, Selmer-ish" sound. Definitley not as well suited for classical/symphonic prolly obvious to most ppl)