Schucht sax modification devices

[hakukani]

In another thread, Schucht Sax Technology was mentioned. I googled them, and discovered that they have devices for different parts of the sax that claim to change the sound. They have a whole list of heavy hitters on the site: Lovano, Mariano, Watts, and Evans.

My German is not so good, so I probably would mis-translate the site. Anyway here it is:

http://www.schuchtsaxtechnology.com/body_index.html





Any comments or discussion on these devices?

[kjetil_bari]

Do thumb hooks affect tone, too?? :shock:

[hakukani]

Do thumb hooks affect tone, too?? :shock:

Just a bit more than neckstrap rings.;)

[kjetil_bari]

Not to mention that disk thingy and the key guard. I smell snake oil! (However, I don't deny that different sax necks could have different sound properties. But then again, I am an incurable agnostic.)

[Tobias]

His necks are great (I have one for my Selmer AN1) but also guite expensive

There are 3 tuningparts to pimp your horn.

When I first read about it, I was also very sceptical, but I orderd them to test them.
I've testet it on my sax, showed it to some friends and my teacher, and everybody could here a difference.

I have to, it is not such a big difference like chaninging a mouthpiece but often it is very clear.

The change depends also on the sax. Sometimes the difference is clear, sometimes just a little change and sometimes nothing is hearable.
Also the Effect can make it better, just a difference and also make it worse.
When we put the Soundexpander on the Yani 9931 of my teacher suddenly the depth aren't working,

Ok, there are 3 different gimmiks.

First the Thumphook: Often, it makes the biggest difference. The deep tones come more easy and they are not sounding any more like a signal horn of a ship.
At my SIII the tone get darker, and just a litte better but for 50€ it was to much

the Soundexpander: It gives my Selmer, and Selmer and the Rampone of my friend, mor center. An other effect is, that fast scaales come more clearly and are not swimming.
I liked it very much, so I bought it.

At the Klappenschutzblech I didn't hear a thing.

Another nice tool is the Klangbogen:
http://www.klangbogen.de/
It gives the sound more volume. You can see the frequenz mountains, they got spread up.

I think the resonanz stones of the Cannonball work wuite the same.

But at my Cannonball the difference was not so big as on my Selmer SIII, so I play my Raven without this stuff

[Tobias]

Don't prejudice, test it on your horns.
When you order at Tino, say hello from me

[RJRusso]

...and how is your klappenschutzblech?

[Tobias]

http://www.schuchtsaxtechnology.com/SST_Tuning/DHK_Universal/body_dhk_universal.html

It's the piece left down on the sax to protect the mechanic. As said, it has the smalest effekt. On the Mk7 of my friend it worked even a bit negative.
But as said, it's very diffent how they work on which horn.

[hakukani]

Another nice tool is the Klangbogen:
http://www.klangbogen.de/
It gives the sound more volume. You can see the frequenz mountains, they got spread up.

I think the resonanz stones of the Cannonball work wuite the same.

But at my Cannonball the difference was not so big as on my Selmer SIII, so I play my Raven without this stuff

I'm sure it works exactly the same as the resonance stones.

[Tobias]

Do I sense there sarcasm.

[hakukani]

Do I sense there sarcasm.

Sort of. I still haven't figured out how the resonance stones work acoustically. The sax vibrates, but in such a tiny amount compared to the air column. I just don't see how changing the mass on the outside changes anything about the air column, at least enough for a discernable difference to the ear.

I found the spectrum analyses interesting, but I can't tell the scale on the vertical axis, nor is the resolution on the horizontal axis good enough for me to tell what the bandwidth is on the 'fattened' after shots.

For a difference in sound to be significant in the real world, it must be able to be detected by the ear, not just able to be measured.

[Tobias]

Ok, here we have a typically problem. Actually nobody knows why and how this really works.
Schucht is actually a trumpetdoc. The idea of "Resonanzgewichte" (Sorry, I only know the german word) is not new on trumpets. Perhaps you've seen some interesting Trumpets with more metals stuff like this.

First of all, the Sax doesn't vibrates like a Violin or or Piano those. There the wooden corpus enforces the sound.
That is not the case at the sax. Actually it is bad when the sax vibrates to much. The Sound comes from the air column. So the sound is manly definites through the bore size. But because of its swingings to hole sax is swinging (this kind of swinging is more mechnical). But if the sax swings frequenzes of the air column are anhilatet.
Here the material ant the finish are comming into play.
So the harder so much the better.
That's why often prohorns are heavier.

Ok, this is just a light explanation, I don't claim, that eveything is absolut correct, and in english it's little bit harder for me to explain.
(I hope my posts are not too funny and is still readable)

So, first boresize, then Material, last finish and other stuff.

Known is also, that the neck is very improtant for the sound. Who ever played a silver or Schucht neck knows that. Or just the two Cannonballnecks. Up there small differences, and such a Stone or a Klangbogen are not so small.

When you talk to neck designers, even the mechanik has influences how the neck works. Some even say, the S on the Selmer necks, do something (but for me, here begins the voodoo)

Therefore those mechanicrails or if the mechanik is attached single on the body can make a difference.

[Swampcabbage]

Hak, It does depend on the ear too. ANy himan ear? A well working human ear? I know many sound men and guitar players whose mid-highs are so shot I would trust them to to tell me the difference between a soprano and a baritone. That's why scientific analysis is so important.

Now, that aside. I did notice a difference when I swapped my original brass thumb hook for a plastic one (slight, but noticeable, especially in the low and mid D). Then when I switched to the Forza it was a very noticeable difference. Big improvement on the right hand. I bought the Forza because of the ergonomics, but the sound benefit was a nice surprise as well. As far as and add on, it's the best thing going. I can see where this other stuff may work. But, I ain't gone spend any money to find out. Plus, none of those hook look nearly as comfy as my Forza.

[hakukani]

Hak, It does depend on the ear too. ANy himan ear? A well working human ear? I know many sound men and guitar players whose mid-highs are so shot I would trust them to to tell me the difference between a soprano and a baritone. That's why scientific analysis is so important.

Now, that aside. I did notice a difference when I swapped my original brass thumb hook for a plastic one (slight, but noticeable, especially in the low and mid D). Then when I switched to the Forza it was a very noticeable difference. Big improvement on the right hand. I bought the Forza because of the ergonomics, but the sound benefit was a nice surprise as well. As far as and add on, it's the best thing going. I can see where this other stuff may work. But, I ain't gone spend any money to find out. Plus, none of those hook look nearly as comfy as my Forza.

Well, there we get into the difference between measured and perceived. I understand the danger of sound guys who have 4k Hz hearing losses. I think they all mix in bars, because the 4k Hz is quite painful.

There are folks that have 'golden ears', and I know one or two folks that can still hear above 15k Hz even though they're over 40.

That's why Fletcher and Munson sampled so many people to develop their curves. The large n improves statistical power. So, when I say 'perceived', I mean someone that's hearing that's that's within, say plus or minus 1.5 standard of deviation from the mean, as measured by Fletcher and Munson. That should cover most healthy people.

[Tobias]

Be sure, I'm not someone who hear the grass grow. I'm still developping my ear. And actually I'm quite sceptic but open.

When I hear something, it's there.

The Schuchthooks are very comfortable, by the way.

Oh, and there is the 14days testing option with money back.

[warp x]

This is one of those things where we need soundclips. I can see how adding some mass on the horn might make a difference in feel for the player, but I'm not convinced an audience will hear any difference.
That said, one of the most beautiful horns I've ever heard was a 1850's or something Adolphe Sax soprano, which had VERY little mass.

[Tobias]

Soundclips? mp3? I heard them on me, I heard them on others.
Soundclips won't work. Belief me or not. Try themself or let it be.
For everyone who allways searches to improve his sound and allready walked through the labrinths of Saxes and MPCs this in an option

[JimD]

The necks? Sure. The thumbhook? I doubt it but if you say so. The disc thingy? Depends upon how gullible you are feeling on the day.

[Tobias]

Don't give comments to anything you haven't tried yourself so far.
Why don't you order them, invite some of your saxmates, try it on every horn, and everybody writes down, what he heard.

It's seems, that I'm the only one who have tried them so far, so you can ask me, blelief me or be quiet. Or as I proposed test it yourself, than you can say this again.

[kjetil_bari]

I think that in cases like this, it is only healthy to express a certain degree of skepticism. Either it works, or it doesn't.

[warp x]

Soundclips? mp3? I heard them on me, I heard them on others.
Soundclips won't work. Belief me or not. Try themself or let it be.
For everyone who allways searches to improve his sound and allready walked through the labrinths of Saxes and MPCs this in an option

So you're saying the difference is inaudible in a clip.
Thumbhooks for a better sound, get real..

[milandro]

soon I will introduce my new line of dream catchers for saxophones (different sizes and colors) , they are woven while chanting an ancient Finnish, from the Sami people, chant which has the property to filter out the bad vibrations leaving only the good ones through .
Of course you need to be a believer since only a true believer will hear the true magnificent sound of the charmed saxophone....shame they are not cheap, they are made of gold you see..... in very small amounts....... up in the forests (I shall give you a discount if you buy in bulk though ;) )

[warp x]

Great! Next full moon I'll buy one!

[milandro]

Great! Next full moon I'll buy one!

mmmmm:scratch: with your new horn I would recommend at least 3 to filter out all the bad vibration ;):D

[warp x]

Yes, that's right. I'll take three. :toothy7::toothy7::toothy7:

[milandro]

alright, you'll need to pay 3500 Euros, in advance, and wait 3 months but it'll be worth it ;)

[Tobias]

Read my first comment in the thread, Actually there ist standing everything important.
I didn't say it's a wonderweapopn against bad sounding. It's just like pimping your sax.
I also said, that on other horns I didn't hear a thing and on other it was also negativly, but on most horns they did quite a good job. personnaly I think it's mainly designd for/with selmer saxes like the mk6.
So I'm not imganing a better effect or want to sell them.
I just can say, test them.
I was in the beginning also very very skeptic, and actually I just orderd them to proof that guy like me now, who are telling those story are wrong.
So then it was me who was wrong.
Now, am I right? you can't say it without testing it yourself.
I just want to tell you folk that these things exist, that they CAN work and perhaps make you a litte curious.

[warp x]

you dropped the price!

[milandro]

you dropped the price!

no way 3500 is final :evil:

[Tobias]

Soundexpander abpot 50€, Hooks 50-100€, Klappenschutzblech 30€, necks 500-2000€ .

Couse I could do two soundfiles which sound different, but as I said, the differences are not extreme, so it will be hard to hear. It would be the same with two reeds.


But the actual point is, as I said before, they work on every horn in a different way. So what the sense in hearing the difference on my horn.

[magical pig]

I think Tobias made a good point : "It's just like pimping your sax"

Take a middle-of-the-road car add mesh grilles, chrome door handles, lights ad nauseum etc... Still the same car, not the same driving experience. In the end, take two similar cars, mod just one : the best driver will still win the race with the unmodded car against the bad driver with the pimped one.

Victor.

[warp x]

Including shipping?

[Tobias]

I think Tobias made a good point : "It's just like pimping your sax"

Take a middle-of-the-road car add mesh grilles, chrome door handles, lights ad nauseum etc... Still the same car, not the same driving experience. In the end, take two similar cars, mod just one : the best driver will still win the race with the unmodded car against the bad driver with the pimped one.

Victor.

But with the pimped car the prodriver drives some seconds faster. Sometimes this the tiny little difference.

These things won't make some mircles, but it can add a certain flavor.
For example the soundexpander. The are horns which doesn't react very fast, and when you're playing fast it gets swimming. With the SEx the tones are more speratly. I liked that very much.
The hooks can make the deepest tones sound like real sound and not like a horny moose. Actually I like it when my low B sounds like a rutting call.

[JimD]

No horny moose sound? I was starting to get interested, excited even. Do I get that from your Dreamcatcher Milandro? And if I only have to wait for 3 months then that surely must be worth a bigger discount.

[milandro]

No way, the dream catcher is 3500 euro, the Sami Shaman just put up her price (I tried a cheaper Wikka but she was rubbish at it, all I got was unusable overtones, sold that to Anthony Braxton.....) and I'm going to make a loss at it.
If you twist my arm, yes, shipping is, just for you, included Warp X ! :)

[Tobias]

It would be nice, if you take this a litte bit more seriously. Everything else is this:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ODshB09FQ8w

[milandro]

Tobias, this forum is as much for fun as it is for information, we've been known to make fun about almost anything wait until you get to know Marty or Rooty..... .

Yes, you have presented the evidence, the people will make up their minds, a little innocent fun shouldn't harm the mighty Schucht Sax modification devices....lighten up and be happy ;) :)

[hakukani]

Did somebody say pimping us out with our grillz?:twisted:

[warp x]

Thanks, I'm looking forward to the Sami Shaman bit. I'm fitting my tenor with some extra tubing, so I'm all set.

@Tobias: just having fun, nothing to take too seriously.
Meanwhile, read this informative post on various finishes.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=817660&postcount=22

[warp x]

Did somebody say pimping us out with our grillz?:twisted:



that's resonance for you right there!

[milandro]

Thanks, I'm looking forward to the Sami Shaman bit. I'm fitting my tenor with some extra tubing, so I'm all set.

do I take this as an order....payment upfront! :twisted: ;) :D

[warp x]

Yes yes! Do you take Southern Comfort Money order?

[Tobias]

I'm always for a good joke, but this seemed to a certain point just fooling around those things.

[JimD]

Too bad about the Sami Shaman I was about to offer to be your UK importer and reseller. I had four people definitely interested and one waverer but with an erratic Shaman like that there's no telling where you'll end up. Are you fitting rubber tubing warp x or does it need an experienced plumber?

[milandro]

Yes yes! Do you take Southern Comfort Money order?

Nope, I'll just come by and collect the dosh 8-)

[milandro]

Too bad about the Sami Shaman I was about to offer to be your UK importer and reseller. I had four people definitely interested and one waverer but with an erratic Shaman like that there's no telling where you'll end up......?


I am sure I can work something out for you, the shaman ows me.......I'd be glad to accept your offer...... for a modest fee of course.......say .....10.000 £ for the license and rights? :twisted:

[JimD]

That sounds fair. I need to talk to my shadowy financial backers who are looking to offset some of their sub-prime losses. Someone may be in touch. Don't worry, they will be able to find you.:evil::evil:

[warp x]

Too bad about the Sami Shaman I was about to offer to be your UK importer and reseller. I had four people definitely interested and one waverer but with an erratic Shaman like that there's no telling where you'll end up. Are you fitting rubber tubing warp x or does it need an experienced plumber?

Well, for best results the extra tubes have to be installed on the outside of the horn mostly, and then going back in through the enlarged low C tonehole. Of course, for it to work properly you'll have to have some kind of drainage system as well. Naturally all this can't be done with simple rubber stuff. I don't need to remind you the Sami Shaman produces lots of acids AND H2O? So, to answer your question, yes, an expierenced plumber is a must.

[warp x]

Nope, I'll just come by and collect the dosh 8-)

with four Sami Shamans?? :shock::shock::yikes!:

[milandro]

with four Sami Shamans?? :shock::shock::yikes!:

naaaaahh those business are better conducted with some of my goodfellas , the same ones who will go look for wiseguy JimD 8-)

[JimD]

:glasses1: :yikes!:

[warp x]

naaaaahh those business are better conducted with some of my goodfellas , the same ones who will go look for wiseguy JimD 8-)

Right. I'll be on the lookout for them:D

[martysax]

Did somebody say pimping us out with our grillz?:twisted:



You too?

I'm into classic 60s-70s style grilles.

[hakukani]

I'm always for a good joke, but this seemed to a certain point just fooling around those things.

So, Tobias, what kind of music do you play? Just curious.

[Tobias]

Oh it's not so common and known. Do you ever heard of a thing called Jazz?

[hakukani]

Oh it's not so common and known. Do you ever heard of a thing called Jazz?

I know many kinds of jazz. I also know many kinds of classical.

Straight ahead? Smooth? Free?

[Tobias]

I play mainy in the university BigBand Leipzig and in a Saxquartet.

So the stylistics I'm moving in are quite spread.

From J. Bach to J. Brown

[Tobias]

Why did you ask. Made me curious

[Tobias]

Update: Because of this schucht talking I tried my divices again on my Sax.
Hmm, at first, I didn't hear a lot, but I let them in my sax, and played with them some time.
Then I asked my teacher, hey, could just listen for a minute, if you hear anything ( he's not very interested in any material discussions).
I played first with and second without. I didn't heard much, I just played a minute. He said clearly that is better with.
Then totday in the rehersal the Bariton player asks, "Do you have a new mouthpiece. You sound different. better." "No, I just put that thing on"
I removed it for him "Hmm, now you're sounding like a normal alto again"

[kjetil_bari]

Which Schucht products are you using?

[Tobias]

At the moment just the Soundexpander, on my SIII I also used the AN1 neck.
but it doesn't fit on my new Cannonball.
Now I've ordered the whole test packet again, to try everything on my new horn again. This time, I also trying the silverplated, curious if there will be a difference.

But as you can see on my exampels, a Sounddiffernce is heard from a lot of people which don't just believe in it. So the change is a fact.

[Tobias]

Update: I now have a silverplated Sound Expander (SEx) und and silverplated thump hook (TH) model Phillippe.
I tried 3 different THs (of course the most expensive one I liked most)
I also think that I heard a very small difference betwenn the silverplated and unlaquered version of the SEx (the silverplated was a little bit brighter and clearer) but it was very very small. I just took the silver plated because of the look (it matches better to my Raven)

So is here anybody else who has played the Schucht devices?