Need a Darker Mouthpiece...When Will I Learn?

[VinnieSax]

Ok, My SOTW brothers. You were right....AGAIN!

I got my Peter Ponzol M1 75 mouthpiece yesterday. Tried it witha #3 ZZ Jazz and 3 1/2 Lemke. I hate and am returning it. Against the advice of SOTW, I purchased this and it was as you all said. Too bright and metal is not the way to go with an alto; I am conovinced of that after two unsuccessful attempts,

I am looking for a mouthpiece for my 82Z that will give me a darker sound than the standard 4CM moutppiece (althought, I like this mouthpiece as well as an older 4C that I have).

Can you help me this time? I promise I'll listen ahd heed your advice. No more bying mouthpieces without trying them and no more metal mouthpieces for an alto.

When will I learn!

[sinkdraiN]

Try a few Meyers in the 5m and 6m tips.

[mlscnr]

Try a few Meyers in the 5m and 6m tips.

[VinnieSax]

That's what I'm talking about! I've heard "Meyer" more than once. Stop me before I buy one on-line...

[mlscnr]

You'll get other suggestions, too, but they will all just be variations on the same theme. Vandoren V16, Morgan M chamber, RPC, Lamberson, and various other boutique mouthpieces, yadda yadda yadda. But for where you're coming from, just a basic Meyer 5M or 6M is the place to start.

And wait until you get your refund from the Ponzol before you order anything else.

[sycc]

I have an old Ponzol M6 85tip opening gold plated. Not a dark piece at all. Very full sounding. I only use it on occasion. You can tell it's a metal piece ie more resonance,volume etc but it is not bright. As for dark mouthpieces I use a Brancher L19 alto piece. .076 opening,low baffle large chamber.

[Merlin]

I am looking for a mouthpiece for my 82Z that will give me a darker sound than the standard 4CM moutppiece (althought, I like this mouthpiece as well as an older 4C that I have).

Can you help me this time? I promise I'll listen ahd heed your advice. No more bying mouthpieces without trying them and no more metal mouthpieces for an alto.

When will I learn!

Hang on.

You're looking for a sound that's DARKER than what you get from a 4CM?

The Yamaha 4CM is a mouthpiece patterned after the S80 Selmer mouthpieces, and is intended for classical music.

What type of music do you want to play?

[dave2sax]

If you trying to find some brightness without going over the top, I feel your pain. I imagine that's what attracted you to try a metal mpc with ZZ reed - that's typically going to be on the bright side.

On the other hand, I'm not sure exactly how dark the stock 4CM mpc is, but do you really want to go darker than that? I'm guessing the difference between your stock piece and the metal Ponzol is pretty extreme. Perhaps finding something in the middle might be what you're after, rather than going too far in the opposite direction and being disappointed again?

There's also a lot more that I consider when trying out pieces aside from bright vs. dark - it's got to do everything else well too. I've always tried to find pieces somewhere in the middle that also have all the other characteristics of a great mpc. - like response, tone quality, projection etc. I like the sound and edge that metal pieces can provide, but comfort, versatility and playability are sacrificed when most metal pieces go up against rubber on alto, and typically the brightness is over the top.

Some pieces I've tried that I like a lot, you may want to consider. The brightness of the piece can be enhanced or decreased with reed selection, softer reeds=brighter. I can't really recommend anything specific to you because I have no idea what style of music or sound you prefer, and the two pieces you've posted about are already at opposite ends of the spectrum. But these pieces all work for me, and offer a lot of versatility. After years of trial and error, this is pretty much the cream of the crop for me.

Meyer M - cheap and very well rounded, definitely better than most stock mpcs.
JodyJazz HR* - traditional sound with a bit of bightness and edge, very affordable.
Morgan Jazz M - brighter but still traditional, very versatile in shaping any sound. I've not tried the Morgan ML but it should darken down a notch from the M. In any case, you won't go wrong with a Morgan.
Lamberson FMaj7 - expensive but worth it, darker but full, reed selection can make a big difference how it plays. Lamberson M is brighter and plays like a great Meyer.

[blindside398]

Selmer Solist D*.

I love it so much.

Or even a Rico Graftonite A or B facing. 5 or 7. Best 15 bucks I've spent in a while.

[sinkdraiN]

If your looking for an ultra dark classical style piece, the Rousseau NC4 and Vandoren optimum mouthpieces are darker to me than a C*/yamaha.

If your looking for an all around middle of the road mouthpiece (from concert band to jazz band) the Meyer is pretty much the standard.

[gary]

Nice that everyone is chipping in but what is it you specifically want to know that wasn't already suggested in your last mpc thread?
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=81628

Not to sound harsh, but you said you wanted a darker mpc and I specifically told you the Ponzol was a brighter mpc and yet that's the one you ordered.

If you want something darker than a Yamaha 4C get a Caravan, Selmer S90 190, or a Rosseau NC4. If you intend to play jazz and pop and want to be heard, better to so with a Selmer Soloist or a Meyer 5M or 6M. And like it was advised on your other thread - try them out.

[bruce bailey]

Never heard of a Selmer D*.

[Michael Ward]

neither has he

[Agent27]

Never heard of a Selmer D*.

Never heard of a Solist either.

[saxmanglen]

Runyon SR


If the alto version is anything like the the tenor version it should be VERY dark. The tenor piece I tried was so dark that the sun would set anytime I played it.

[Hurling Frootmig]

A Caravan should be darker. Think classical.

I like the Morgan 3C is you are really trying to go darker. Otherwise check out the various Meyer type pieces (Morgan 5M, Vandoren V16 A6M, Meyer 6M) or a Vandoren Java.

[VinnieSax]

OK. So, I'm beginning to wonder. Is the stock Yamaha 4CM as dark as I'm going to get? Or will a Meyer 5M or 6M be the sound I'm looking for?

OK, I agree the Ponzol was a mistake...I wanted a metal mouthpiece in the worst way. This was a HELL of a price at $134, but a mistake. Once I got it I realized I really wanted a darker, smoky sound...I was fooling myself. I not afraid to admit it; you guys were right.

Frustation is the key word, here. I'm not a novice, but I am someone who got away from the sax for a long while and now have come back. But not recently; a few years ago. The frustration is from trying different mouthpieces and reeds. I think I got the reed part down; a #3 ZZ or a 3 1/2 Lemke.

As for mouthpieces, out of all the ones I tried previously, the Yamaha 4C I got with a YAS-52 was awesome...and I kept it when I sold the horn. When I bought the 82Z, the
4CM that came with it was real good to me as well...but I thought, hell, my SOTW brothers are always the best source. Isn't there something better, easier to blow, darker, give me that sound I'm looking for.

Mostly I play pop, rock, contemporary. But I know the sound I want; I just haven't found it. Darker; more smoky. Is the 4CM it after all? I keep hearin Meyer 5M and 6M and I will not take that advice lightly.

[Agent27]

What kind of style are you trying to play? What kind of dark do you mean? Classical dark? Jazz dark? Is there a particular player who's sound you're trying to copy that has this dark quality? Answers to these questions will help us help you. We don't know how you sound on your 4C and "dark" is a relative term.

[Mal 2]

I've been playing around with a Meyer 6m tenor piece myself, and it is fairly dark and not particularly what I'm looking for. The Rovner ligature I'm using (because it's all I have that fits a standard tenor piece) probably makes it even darker. I've never been a fan of Rovner ligatures either.

The Meyer pieces have just a tiny bit of baffle for the first 5mm or so, then they open up rapidly into a round chamber. I think the short bit of baffle helps prevent the "tubby" response that can come from some other "dark" mouthpieces.

[VinnieSax]

What type of dark? Jazz dark would be the closest I could describe. I know it's subjective...

Here's another question. The stock 4CM has an opening of about 63 thousandths. A Meyer 5M is 71; a 6M is 76. With some of the mouthpieces I've tried so far with wider openings I have not had much success with my reed set-up. I had tried a Jumbo Java A6 (77 thousands) and got nothing but squeaks. This Ponzol I tried has a 75 opening and, while better for me, still gave me that uncomfortable feeling...like I was going to have that embarrassing squeak at any time. It did squeak on me with either the ZZ #3 or Lemke #3 1/2, but when I went through the middle register.

The older 4C I have, probably at about 63, plays awesome with the reeds I like; as does the 4CM. No squeaks; easy to blow through all registers. A lot of confidence. But, I'm not convinced on the sound.

Do you think a meyer 5M with 71 opening and these reeds would be the one to try? Or a 4M maybe? 6M? How do these stack up, technically, with a stock 4CM?

I know; got to try them. Just looking for some additional guidance. Would a 6M and #3 ZZ set up pretty well?

[Twombles62]

For alto, I would recommend anything between a 5M or a 7M opening. Generally between .068 and .080 is standard.

[fballatore]

Vinnie -

With all due respect, you won't get your answer here. The ONLY way to answer your question and find the piece you're looking for is to try as many as you can, and pick the one that's closest to the sound in your head. There are just way too many variables. I can get my Lebayle LR metal alto piece to sound as "dark" as my Meyer 6M. Someone else might play it and say it's the brightest piece they've ever played. It all comes down to the player. No two people sound exactly alike on the same exact setup, and any two players that have an identical sound might get there with totally different setups.

You can ask the question here to get guidelines and suggestions, but you're going to get dozens of different suggestions. Best to go out and try for yourself before you buy.

Frank

[Twombles62]

Although Frank, some of use aren't in the position to try mouthpieces, and even then only a limited selection.

In melbourne, I can probably only try 10 or so models of mouthpieces. There aren't even any Yanagisawa saxes here.

[fballatore]

Yes, I recognize that, which is why I checked and saw that Vinnie is in Massachusetts before I posted my reply. I'm sure he has more options than you would. ;)

[VinnieSax]

Thanks, Frank. Very true. Here in Mass, I can go to more than a few music stores and try the pieces. I'm close to Rhode Island as well...

I totally agree with what you are saying; everyone is different. I'm just looking for some guidelines. From the information I've gotten here now and previously, I keep hearing Meyer and will try those. Maybe the stock Yamaha IS my mouthpiece and I just don't know it yet. I know one of my favorite players, Jay Beckenstein, uses a stock 4C on his sop...not that that matters for me.

I have learned that a metal piece is probably not the soound I'm looking for. I'll keep looking and trying.

[fballatore]

Vinnie -

Jay is one of my favorite players as well. Since that's the case, you may want to try out a Beechler Diamond inlay alto piece; that's what Jay uses.;) Although when I play mine, I sound nothing like him. :?

Frank

P.S. I think Jay uses a Selmer C* piece on soprano.

[VinnieSax]

Thanks, Frank!

Interesting; I was just on WWBW checking out the clearance items; one of them is a Beechler Diamond inlay. I know, I know, gotta try them, but you can always return them. One issue with going to a music store to try mouthpieces is they obviously can't carry everything.

Thank again!

Vinnie

[Twombles62]

You can always take advantage of wwbws trial policy where you can try multiple pieces...

Sorry about that Frank. I listened to one of you alto clips the other day, very impressed mate.

[gary]

:banghead:

Vinnie. Jay Beckenstein is not a dark-sounding player.

Also, if you want to play jazz and pop, I sincerely doubt that a Yamaha 4C is going to give you the carrying power you will need when you're playing in an ensemble nor will you be able to hear yourself very well.

Let's just end this all right here and now, OK? Get a Meyer 6M or a Vandoren V16 and play on it for about six months minimum. Then you will have a better feel for what you want. Otherwise IMO you're just pi**ing into the wind with all this hypothetical stuff. (Said in a friendly tone of voice.)

(And BTW, they are Hemke reeds.)

[VinnieSax]

For the Beechler...you think a M5 (medium facing) would be a good choice with the #3 ZZ and #3 1/2 Lemke? Just looking for some guidance. From the descriptions for the Beechler, it appears the small bore is for a "brighter" sound.

The Small Bore
The design of this bore enhances the higher frequencies of the instrument. The medium high baffle induces a fast air column which generates a powerful and brilliant sound rich in overtones. The embouchure can be shaped to favor the highs, creating an intense buzzing sound, or shaped to favor the lows, creating a mellow and vibrant sound.

The Medium Bore
The design of this bore favors the medium high frequencies of the instrument. The open style baffle induces a medium fast air column which reduces the available power and brilliance giving a subtle flavor to the sound while maintaining an ease of projection. This chamber is suitable for saxophone sections or soloing with a combo.

The Large Bore
The design of this bore favors the low to medium high frequencies of the instrument. This style of baffle induces a moderate air speed which lends itself to producing a dark sound suitable for close-miked or classical situations

[saxmanglen]

[fballatore]

No need to apologize. ;) And thanks for the nice words about my playing - much appreciated.

Vinnie - definitely take advantage of WWBW's trial policy. I think they let you try up to 4 mouthpieces at a time, and you can return them for a small steralization fee. I'd be surprised if they'd let you do that on clearance items, or even return them at all. Best to call them and ask.

[VinnieSax]

I know Beckenstein is not a "Dark" sounding player. I didn't state that; I said he was one of my favorite. His sound is not the sound I'm looking for; I just like his style and ability.

[gary]

I know Beckenstein is not a "Dark" sounding player. I didn't state that; I said he was one of my favorite. His sound is not the sound I'm looking for; I just like his style and ability.

Well then why are you talking about ordering a Beechler?

[VinnieSax]

Gary,

Do you think Beechler's are brighter mouthpieces? Or will a different bore give me a "darker" sound with the reed set-ups I've been spouting about? I don't know exactly what bore Beckenstein plays or reed setup. And, as we have been discussing, this will be different for different players.

However, if you think...and I value your opinion...the Beechler is on the bright side no matter what bore, I will certainly consider discounting it. I believe you were one of the SOTW fold who told me not to bother with a Ponzol if I was looking for a darker sound.
Should have listened.

Beechler's are a good priced mouthpiece...

[gary]

Vinnie, I know this can be vexing if one is just opening Pandora's mouthpiece box, but really, you already have all the information you need. Time to just start checking out what everyone has been suggesting.

[VinnieSax]

And that is appreciated. I have already ordered a Meyer 5M, 6M and a Beechler M5 from WWBW to try. These can all be returned if I don't like them.

And I know it is Hemke and not "Lemke". This is called a typo.

One of the things I do find vexing about SOTW is the sometimes critical nature of you, my brothers. We are all not of the same stature and we, those of us who are not afraid to ask questions, do count on you to help guide us. This is why we ask the questions; so we can be guided to help find the answers. Or at least ponted in the right direction.

Patience, my brothers. Patience.

I thank you all for your help and guidance.

[Twombles62]

You just said that the Beechler was bright but you want a dark piece, so why did you order it? Sounds just a little bit like last time.

[VinnieSax]

Could be. I can return it. As I stated before, I don't know what Beckenstein is using. Small bore? Large? What reed?

From all the information I have gotten, it does have a lot to do with the player. And, I figured, I ordered the 5M and 6M Meyer from the recommendations of my brothers on SOTW. The Beechler may pan out; I don't know. I didn't get much feedback as to whether this was a darker mouthpiece or not; just from the Beechler promors which I posted. And the fact the Beckenstein uses one and we all know his sound is bright...but does this make every Beechler bright? If you know this for sure, tell me and I'll cancel this mouthpiece and order something else.

I'm not trying to be harsh, here. I'm frustrated and looking for the right mouthpiece before I die.

[CountSpatula]

Could be. I can return it. As I stated before, I don't know what Beckenstein is using. Small bore? Large? What reed?

From all the information I have gotten, it does have a lot to do with the player. And, I figured, I ordered the 5M and 6M Meyer from the recommendations of my brothers on SOTW. The Beechler may pan out; I don't know. I didn't get much feedback as to whether this was a darker mouthpiece or not; just from the Beechler promors which I posted. And the fact the Beckenstein uses one and we all know his sound is bright...but does this make every Beechler bright? If you know this for sure, tell me and I'll cancel this mouthpiece and order something else.

I'm not trying to be harsh, here. I'm frustrated and looking for the right mouthpiece before I die.

Beechler's are just typically mouthpieces on the brighter side. Kenny G and Gerald Albright use rubber beechlers, wouldn't call them dark (on alto). Meyer is a darker piece, very flexible it just takes more practice than you can imagine. :| You should find a player whose tone you really like...listening helps a lot.

[VinnieSax]

Thanks. Perhaps I'll cancel this and order something else. I was reaching...

You just want to experiment, you know? I've always had that "don't tell me what to do" attitude. But I'm trying...I'm trying. My go round withthe Ponzol humbled my ***.

[gary]

And I know it is Hemke and not "Lemke". This is called a typo.

Is it a typo when it occurs in four consecutive posts? ;)
Wouldn't want you to order the wrong thing.


One of the things I do find vexing about SOTW is the sometimes critical nature of you, my brothers. We are all not of the same stature and we, those of us who are not afraid to ask questions, do count on you to help guide us. This is why we ask the questions; so we can be guided to help find the answers.

Fair enough, Vinnie, but OTOH we don't like going around in circles giving the same advice and having it ignored. Takes patience on both sides.

This is the last time I'm giving advice on this thread. Not being negative, I just don't like being this redundant. Get four Meyers (two 5Ms and two 6Ms) from ww&bw. Keep the one you like and send the rest back unless you don't like any of them. In which case order four Vandoren V16s (two A5Ms and two A6Ms) and do the same. If none of these work come back for more recommendations. Have a good Sunday!

[VinnieSax]

Thanks, Gary. I understand. And this was not specifically directed at you. You have given me advice in the past and it is appreciated.

Sometimes you just get so much information and advice that your head spins. I am frustrated in my search for a mouthpiece.

To that end, I have ordered the meyer 5M, 6M from WWBW and hopefully have also a Caravan and Rousseau coming as well.

Thanks!

[ManEast]

[QUOTE=VinnieSax;801704]Ok, My SOTW brothers. You were right....AGAIN!

I got my Peter Ponzol M1 75 mouthpiece yesterday. Tried it witha #3 ZZ Jazz and 3 1/2 Lemke. I hate and am returning it. Against the advice of SOTW, I purchased this and it was as you all said. Too bright and metal is not the way to go with an alto; I am conovinced of that after two unsuccessful attempts,

I am looking for a mouthpiece for my 82Z that will give me a darker sound than the standard 4CM moutppiece (althought, I like this mouthpiece as well as an older 4C that I have).

Can you help me this time? I promise I'll listen ahd heed your advice. No more bying mouthpieces without trying them and no more metal mouthpieces for an alto.

Hi Ya Bud
Try a Vandoren V16 A6M if you play jAZZ or the V16 A6S if you play Funk.

Yours ManEast

[littlemanbighorn]

For the Beechler...you think a M5 (medium facing) would be a good choice with the #3 ZZ and #3 1/2 Lemke? Just looking for some guidance.

If you're unhappy with your sound why are you so worried about sticking with the same reeds? Try some other brands of reeds. I wouldn't call ZZ's a dark reed.
With a more open mouthpiece you'll probably need a softer reed than you're currently playing on. That was likely part of the cause of the squeaking you experienced (I can't remember with what mouthpiece.)
Once you work through the mouthpiece search you'll want to try a variety of brands and strengths of reeds to find what works best with it.

[VinnieSax]

Thanks...again!

I have a TON of reeds of different flavors and strengths...I have found that the ZZ's give me the strength for the highs; I really like the feel of the Hemke's and the 3 1/2 Hemke is about the same as the ZZ# 3 in my opinion. The Vandoren #3's are another favorite. With the thinner reeds, my sound chokes; the highs are not there. The #3 ZZ and Hemke #3-3 1/2 I believe are the best for me; they get me where I need to go. If you know of a darker sounding reed, I'll all ears...pun intended.

I've got #2's, 2 1/2's...hell, I even have some 1 1/2's. Rico's, Vandorens, I've got a 2 1/2Fibracell. After all that, the Yamaha 4C and 4CM (that came with my 82Z) set up nice with the ZZ and Hemke. I can get by with this until I find my baby...I'm on a mission.

Right now, I've got Meyer 5M, 6M and Beechler M5 on the way (although I may cancel this from the advice I have received here; may be too late at this point). I wish I had the time to visit a music store, but WWBW has a great policy on returning mouthpieces, so why not? I just missed out on a Caravan. The search goes on.

Once again, much appreciated, my brothers. Thank you for you patience with me.

I'm also looking to get my hands on a Rousseau JDX5. If all these fail, I'll look into the Vandorens.