Beuscher TT Mouthpieces

[LennyH]

Hi All,

My True Tone Tenor is from around 1928. It would be nice to have a vintage TT mouthpiece to go with it at some point, but I'm not sure how long TT MP's were made or which type to get. Would any TT MP be a (possible) decent match for my tenor? How much did these MP's vary during the years they were made?

Any guidance would be appreciated. There are a couple of pieces on Ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2515604501&category=16 234

And a White one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2515719378&category=16 232

Thanks,
Lenny

[paulwl]

Hi Lenny,

I started a discussion about stock Buescher mouthpieces on the board pre-2/28, but it got wiped out. If you're looking for info on the mpc that was OE with this horn, I think I can help. I had the chance not too long ago to pick the brains of Mark Aronson, surely one of the top 3 Buescher oriented techs in the country, after I'd bought a great stock tenor piece from him.

This turned out to be the so-called "Narrow Beak" model. It has a very tapered beak as seen from above, going back to the tip in straight lines instead of that gentle curve you see on most rubber pieces. Mark said they were rare and sought after by alto players, but made no such claims for the tenor model. (Alto players are most picky about Buescher mpcs, as they are, by and large, the classical soloists.)

Mark believed the "Narrow Beaks" were supplied with most or all True-Tones after about 1915 (ie: your horn too), as well as the first thousand or so New Aristocrats in the early 30s. Mine is marked "The Buescher-Elkhart Ind." in an oval and "Bb" under that. (I wonder whether Mark might be a bit in error about the vintages - I've seen both narrow and rounded beak mpcs with this type marking.) A lot of them just say "Bb", and were probably made for stencil saxes by Buescher, but seem to be basically the same piece.

Mine is a highly playable, pretty, dark-sounding piece. It was measured at .060" tip opening by Mark, but plays even a little opener than that. I use a Fibracell MH reed, but any reed in the Vandoren 3-4 / Rico 3 1/2-5 range would work well, I'd think.

Now to those 2 you spotted on eBay. In my experience, both ought to work great with the T-T tenor, but only the Tru-Lay (black rubber barrel chamber) would be at all close to OE sound and specs. These were made for the pre-WW2 Aristocrats and are a lot like the Narrow Beaks, only with a little bigger sound and a bit more delicate "buzz" (and I do mean a little - these are still very close-faced and sweet-toned pieces).

The white plastic piece was made by Runyon for Buescher and I believe it may have been developed for the 400 series saxes. I'm not sure, though, because my Buescher experts prefer not to acknowledge it at all due to its non-purist straight sidewalls and medium-bright tone (it plays a lot like a good Brilhart Tonalin).

I think there was another black rubber, barrel chamber piece made by Buescher during the 40s, but haven't been able to learn much more as yet. Of course, by the 50s they were offering the Sigurd Rascher signature piece, based on some model or another of barrel chamber (which one it was is yet more privileged information).

Today's Rascher piece is another good bet, a touch more open tipped, and I find it easier to match reeds with than the Tru-Lay.

Tru-Lay and "Bb" tenor pieces pop up fairly frequently on eBay, often at reasonable prices.

Hope the above is semi-comprehensible and helps you...

[paulwl]

The Tru-Lays were the first Buescher piece to give you a choice of facings and tip openings. Each came in 7 versions: SC, SM, SO, M, LC, LM, LO.
(S=short, M=medium, L=long, C=closed, O=open)

Example: Tenor LC was "55/1000" (.055" tip, 1.000" facing length); Tenor M (on eBay now) 60/937; Tenor SO 63/812.

Facings other than M are very rare.

Buescher kept making a "Standard" mpc during the Crat era, too. This was probably the curved beak model marked "The Buescher" I referred to above. These came in SC, M, and LO only.

[LennyH]

Wow! Thanks, paulwl for taking the time to write all of that. It was very helpful. I saved it to the hard drive (not that I don't trust the new and improved disk redundancy at myforums :wink: ).

I might try that black Tru-Lay piece if the price stays reasonable. Sounds like a good place to start.

[paulwl]

I tell everyone with an old horn that they want to check out the stock piece if it's any good at all. It can teach you a lot about your horn if you get the hang of it. Although I don't recommend giving up on all your modern pieces (and your sound) to follow it into the wilderness - unless you're up for a pilgrimage of sorts... :)

[Hornlip]

PaulW -- I'm definately on the lookout for stock mouthpieces for my vintage horns, for that reason. I want 'em for my True-Tones & Aristocrats so I can hear how the horns was supposed to sound as conceived by the maker.

That said, I've got a late 20's Chu alto that came with what I presume is the original Conn "Eagle" mouthpiece, and I think it sounds just awful!!! Like distant, lowing cattle. And I'm using a 3&1/2 Vandoren reed. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but a Brilhart Tonalin piece sounds wonderful on it -- though the intonation with the Eagle is better.

An M.C. Gregory Model A sounds great on my Aristocrat. . . .

[paulwl]

Can't give you too many hints on playing the old mpcs - either the technique is too personal somehow, or maybe I'm just a lousy teacher :) ...you do need to blow differently, fool with different reed strengths perhaps, and choke up on the piece a little more. "Lowing" isn't enough of a description to help you, really.

I use an Eagle on soft chamber jazz gigs now and then myself, with a Fibracell MH reed. (I'm no purist, just exploring the possibilities...)

[Hornlip]

Can't give you too many hints on playing the old mpcs - "Lowing" isn't enough of a description to help you, really.

"Lowing" as in quiet, muffled distant mooing of cows. What I meant was that the tone is muffled, it's much quieter, and it has a laughably plaintive tone quality, like "Why Me??"

Probably I just need to work with it more!! 8)

[rrex54]

Paul: Obviously I'm not staying current with these posts. Thanks for all the information on the Buescher pieces! I recall your pre-crash post.

Paul and Hornlip: I think I know that "lowing" sound it comes close to the way I might have described the sound from a Conn Eagle alto piece as well. However, I'll offer three comments.

One, that sound really is reminiscent of some of the early jazz and big band recordings. I had always assumed that the recording technology got in the way, but now see that the brightness we hear most today simply wasn't there.

Two, these pieces are so closed that they demand really hard reeds as well to get the full tonal spectrum.

Three, I think one's ear changes as well in playing these pieces. The contrast with modern sax sounds can be so strong that the vintage pieces simply cannot sound "right." I notice that as I play more (as Hornlip knows, I'm still a novitiate in these hallowed musical halls) -- and, obviously, play the large-chambered vintage pieces more, I have come to appreciate all the tonal qualities present.

Interesting note on vintage HR, large-chamber, alto pieces. I have Tru-Lay 55/812M, Conn Eagle, and Martin pieces. To the naked eye the Martin and Conn mpcs look the same -- scooped out sides, large open chamber. However, chamber size or design must vary just a wee bit as the Martin piece has just the slightest bit of additional brightness. The Tru-Lay does get that bit of buzz as Paul describes -- and has one distinctive characteristic: the material under the side rails is much thicker -- perhaps the origin of that sound.

Sorry for the long and late post, but thank you guys for a great discussion.

[paulwl]

I think one's ear changes as well in playing these pieces. The contrast with modern sax sounds can be so strong that the vintage pieces simply cannot sound "right."
And vice versa. It would probably take a player with unusually broadminded ears to appreciate the best in each style. And that broadmindedness might prevent them from fully exploring the possibilities of either. So a lot of the best players tend to see the difference in terms of better or worse, outmoded or up to date, or even (if you march beneath the banner of Adolphe Sax) right or wrong...