Define Doubling?

[GZsound]

From reading this forum, I get the feeling some of you think you are doubling on another instrument if you play sax and....sax.

Isn't that like a guitar player saying he doubles on guitar because he plays three different kinds of guitars?

Or a synth player saying he doubles on synth because he has two different synths?

Anyway, you get the point. I would suggest doubling mean playing two different instruments.. I play Sax and keys..for example. And the transition from playing one note all my life to learning chords has been interesting.

And I guess since I play alto, tenor, soprano and bari sax I am a double double...?

[paulwl]

A true doubler is someone who plays two different instruments that require different technique, not just different sizes of the same instrument.

Alto sax and clarinet is doubling.
Alto sax and tenor sax is not.
Clarinet and bass clarinet is not.
Boehm clarinet and Albert clarinet are not. (Contrary to popular belief, Albert is not all that different, just harder! :x)

Oboe and bassoon, however, is doubling. A bassoon is a double-reed like an oboe, but it has a totally different technique and fingering system. It's a similar situation to clarinet and sax: you can't play one well just from knowing the other.

Trumpet and trombone is doubling, because one has valves and the other, slides.
Trombone and bass trombone, or trumpet and bass trumpet, is not doubling.

Piano and organ is doubling.
Piano and keyboard is not.

As with any rule, there are exceptions...

Exception 1: Playing more than one bowed string instrument (violin, viola, cello, bass) is doubling, because the pedagogy and literature for each are so strictly defined. And no, it doesn't matter that the viola and cello tune the same. We're up against 400 years of tradition here, so Rules Are Rules.
(Occasional violinists also play viola, and yes, that's considered a double.)

Exception 2: Anyone in an ensemble playing a written part that calls for more than one instrument (eg: big band, pit orchestra) is said to be doubling as long as they're playing that part. Even if Alto I book only calls for alto and bari sax, you are said to "double bari." Strictly a term of convenience, and not due cause to call yourself a doubler. Get a clarinet. :wink:

[GZsound]

Well, my fiance plays upright bass in a bluegrass band and electric bass in a band with me.. does she double on bass?

And I tried a clarinet in high school and hated it. It wasn't until Aker Bilk did Strangers On The Shore that I actualy liked clarinets.. But by then I was too busy learning sax.

[Dr G]

Well, my fiance plays upright bass in a bluegrass band and electric bass in a band with me.. does she double on bass?

Observing Paul's "Exception #1", I'd say "Yes." Especially since there are issues of fretted vs. non-fretted and the scale lengths are different. I marvel at (upright, aka double bass) bass players that can play accurately and with good time. They are a blessing.

[Owner_of_Artemis_R_Sax]

What if you played slide trombone and valve trombone?

[Amy]

I think playing bass clarinet and clarinet WOULD be considered a double. Just my opinion.

[bassclarinet]

Amy, I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you. I play Bass Clarinet, Bb Clarinet, and Alto Clarinet. I don't consider that doubling in as much as there is no major technique changes- The fingering is all the same. The only major difference is that you cannot consider a Bass Clarinet to be the "same" instrument as a Bb Clarinet as the approach to playing it is different. It's just not a "bigger" clarinet. Do you call that technique? The embrochure is very different, but the fingering is still the same.

Now, lately, I bought a C-Melody Sax. The embrochure is much more relaxed that the basic Bb Clarinet embrochure, somewhat relaxed than the Bass Clarinet but the fingering and handling of the instrument is different. I'm still trying to find key positions on the Sax that I would expect to be there (after all they are on my clarinets) but no.

The Octave key is truly an octave and the upper fingerings (not counting auxilary ones) are identical to the lower. I would call those different techniques and qualify as doubling. Did that help you?

[bpimentel]

Mary AllyeB Purtle has an article about this question on her web site:
http://www.purtle.com/maryallyeb_articles_doubling.html

She says there are two kinds of doubling, "primary to secondary" and "primary to primary." The first is "doubling" another instrument in the same family (such as clarinet to bass clarinet), and the second is doubling an instrument in another family (like clarinet to saxophone).

I think that's a fair way of looking at it, especially since primary-to-secondary doubling isn't automatic (you do have to pay your dues on clarinet AND bass clarinet). Still, as a primary-to-primary doubler, I would probably take a dim view of someone calling themselves a "doubler" just because they play alto AND tenor, or flute AND piccolo.

Bret Pimentel

[TenorTrane]

[quote="paulwl"]A true doubler is someone who plays two different instruments that require different technique, not just different sizes of the same instrument.


Trumpet and trombone is doubling, because one has valves and the other, slides.
Trombone and bass trombone, or trumpet and bass trumpet, is not doubling.

Well what about the valved Trombone... *Like the one that the Trombone player in Duke Ellington's band would use..*? :P

[Riff]

I disagree with most of the above posts. Switching instruments within the same family is doubling. Just because you play tenor well doesn't mean you can play alto well, similar technique or not. There are not many pros out there that are equally famous on both alto and tenor. (at the moment, only Sonny Stitt comes to mind)

If I need an alto player for a gig, I look for an alto player, not a tenor player who owns an alto. The player needs to know his repertoire of tunes in both Bb and Eb keys to be competent on both horns. That requires a lot of study. The embouchures are different, the altissimo is different, the scale is different. To be an effective alto/tenor doubler requires practice on both instruments. One may be able to "get by" on your secondary sax, but you can tell if a sax player is playing an alto as if it were a tenor. This is not doubling, this is sort of like sneaking in the back door. A good sax to sax doubler sounds equally proficient on either horn without betraying which is his primary instrument. I know plenty of alto players who are lost with a tenor in their hands and visa versa. How is this different from doubling sax to clarinet or flute?

[Razzy]

I agree with Riff. To me, if you play more than one instrument well, you are a doubler. Alto and tenor sax are two different instruments. So are trombone and bass trombone. So are vibes and marimba. Keyboard and piano. It doesn't matter how subtle the difference is. More than one instrument? Doubler. You deserve a bit of respect for that! Otherwise what would you call that person? How would you describe the broad skills they possess? Sort-of-doubler? "Well, he plays saxophones. But he's not a doubler!" I mean, obviously there are levels. Keeping your chops up on flute, alto, and clarinet is more difficult than keeping your chops up on alto, tenor, soprano, and bari. But they are still both doublers. Just like all soprano players are soprano players: some may be a lot better than others, but they are still all soprano players.

The primary focus of the discussion here was to try to attribute the more difficult forms of doubling to the term itself, and to eliminate the easier forms of doubling from the scope of its definition. Personally, trying to make a term define both qualitative AND quantitative aspects is just a silly practice :wink:

[TRWham]

While this is an interesting discussion, I think some take this distinction too seriously. I "doubled" on sax (TA&B) and bassoon in high school so I guess I qualify under any definition given here, but they must have forgotten to give me the official doubler's patch to wear on my uniform.

[Razzy]

good point, TR. Still, my only problem with the above discussion is that basically they are saying that someone who plays four saxes equally well should not be considered a doubler at all. The term does have a certain distinction to it, and I feel that an SATB player or even simply an AT player deserves to be called a doubler.

[Gordon (NZ)]

So what diversity is needed to be called a multi-instrumentalist?