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E_di_e
04-06-2008, 01:40 AM
Hi Everyone:

I've trying to found how to write a phrygian chord on Band-in-a-box. Anyone can give a hand?

Searching on internet I've found that the chord must be: Xm7b9?


Thanks! :)

saxjazz42
04-06-2008, 02:07 AM
try xmaj7#11/xb (ie, Emaj7#11/Eb or Amaj7/Ab). I haven't tried that in band in a box but that's one way to voice phrygian at the piano, so it should work. peace-mike

E_di_e
04-06-2008, 02:16 AM
Hi... thanks a lot!

But that is mayor phrygian or minor? I'm searching minor phrygian. E - F - G - A - B - C - D - E

Can you please confirm to me?

Thanks again,

Mal 2
04-06-2008, 02:45 AM
Phrygian is minor with a b2 (or b9 as you already noted).

DanPerezSax
04-06-2008, 02:45 AM
Dude, "phrygian" is a mode, not a chord. The i chord in the phrygian mode is i-7, with tension 11. Just use the b9 as a passing tone or neighbor tone. If you try to put it on a -7(b9) chord, you have to be really careful how you voice it... it's easy to make that sound like garbage.

saxjazz42
04-06-2008, 02:46 AM
minor phrygian...if you put in Fmaj9#11/E for example, you'd have (from the bottom) E F A B E G, giving you all the notes out of the E phrygian scale except the C and D. I suppose you could call it F maj13 (#11)/E if you wanted to get the D in there, but it really isn't necessary to get the sound of the chord. peace- mike

E_di_e
04-06-2008, 03:40 AM
I know that phrygian is a mode, but I need to write the chord into Band-in-a-Box in order to play the mode and chord over it. It goes this way:

First you play the scale to the 9th: C - Db - Eb - F - G - Ab - Bb - C - D - C - Bb - Ab - G - F - Eb - Db - C
After that the chord to the 8th: C - Db - F - G - C - G - F - Db - C
After that the chord to the 7th: C - Db - F - G - Bb - G - F - Db - C


I understand that if I write Cmaj9#11/Bb, I would have:
Bb - C - D - #F - G (but this is not the chord)

If I write Cm7b9, I would have:
C - Eb - G - Bb - Db (but is not also the chord)

I guess I would need kind of: sus4 b9?

saxjazz42
04-06-2008, 03:56 AM
Cmaj9#11/ B natural. (B natural = C flat.) that gives B-C-E-F#-B-D.

C-11 b9 could work too, although it might add a natural 6 (A natural) which is not what you want.

peace- mike

E_di_e
04-06-2008, 04:00 AM
Great!
I'll try to use X#11/ (X-1)

Thanks,

saxawoogie
04-06-2008, 10:58 AM
I'm trying out the demo for Band-in-a Box after spending a few weeks trying out Print Music. For now, I'm stuck with Vista. BB seems more compatible, but does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

Agent27
04-06-2008, 12:00 PM
I know that phrygian is a mode, but I need to write the chord into Band-in-a-Box in order to play the mode and chord over it. It goes this way:


Yeah, but chords aren't scales. You can sound a basic Cm7 chord and play dorian, phrygian, and aeolian minor scales against it just the same. You don't NEED to have the 9th in there or the b13 in there for aeolian. If you play a iii7 chord in a bop tune, a pianist isn't going to voice it any differently than any other minor 7 chord. A modal setting might be a little different.

The way a piano player is most likely to voice it in a modal tune is to use the 5, b7, b9, and 11th (maybe the b13) while omitting the 3rd. Something like C in the left hand (or played by the bass); Bb, Db, F, G in the right. If you put in C7susb9, that should do it. Maybe even C7susb9b13. Those are both chords that BIAB accepts and if you were going to notate a chord for the phrygian sound (instead of writing C Phrygian in the piano part), that's probably what you'd write (instead of Cm7b9 or Cm7b9b13).

I also think just practicing it over Cm7 is fine too.

gary
04-06-2008, 12:44 PM
I agree with Clayton. Why complicate it?

If you are composing and arranging something with a Phrygian flavour to it, then there are ways of looking at the harmonies and voicing them to keep the overall content within a Phrygian context.

But if you're just mentioning typical "standards" maj/min, cycle of fifths music, a spade is simply a spade. I just don't understand this compulsion to add layer upon layer of theoretical crap when it's not there to start with. I was lost in the first few moments of this thread.

saxjazz42
04-06-2008, 02:26 PM
The assumption here is that the original question was not 'how do i voice a iii mi7 chord', but instead, how to voice a phrygian sound. Yes, you can play the phrygian mode against a minor 7 chord, but that's a matter of chord function in relation to a set of changes. If you want the sound of the chord to be that of the phrygian scale, you need to include the parts of the scale that make it phrygian.

If a pianist sees simply 'Dmi7' , they are likely to include the natural 9, and possibly the natural 6 as well, and most likely not the 11th. Playing phrygian over this results in alot of dissonance, very much like if you play the dorian scale against the Maj 7. If you want the phrygian sound, you can't expect your pianist to read your mind and go to that, from simply seeing 'Dmi7.' Having a way to notate the chord and sound you want is what i'm after here.

Check out Wess Anderson's 'Egyptian Blues' (a phrygian blues) or 'Phrygia' (modal tune based on the phrygian scale) on Adam Rogers' album 'Allegory'. They are not just playing 'X mi7' and throwing phrygian on top of it, rather they have found ways to voice the sound of that mode, just as we have ways to voice the sound of the Ionian, Dorian, Lydian or Mixolydian modes (to name a few...).

X sus7 b9 b13 would work too, since the pianist should know to avoid the major 3rd. Only problem is, the minor 3rd is not present. Gets the overall sound though, i just thought of the slash chord first.

Agent27
04-06-2008, 02:44 PM
The OP hasn't stated what his intent was. If you're just practicing the mode, I don't think it matters all that much. It would from a compositional standpoint where the composer could even indicate what voicings to use. But that's something you can't really do with BIAB. You need to sit down at the piano and experiment and listen. If you really know your pianist, you can even write different chords knowing he's going to voice this chord a certain way and this chord slightly different. Miles would write a 7#9 chord in tunes and intentionally play phrygian over it.

gary
04-06-2008, 04:06 PM
The assumption here is that the original question was not 'how do i voice a iii mi7 chord', but instead, how to voice a phrygian sound. Yes, you can play the phrygian mode against a minor 7 chord, but that's a matter of chord function in relation to a set of changes. If you want the sound of the chord to be that of the phrygian scale, you need to include the parts of the scale that make it phrygian.

As an aside - for anyone wanting to get some good ideas on how to do this, Herb Pomeroy's Line Writing Concepts cover this very well and clearly.

hgiles
04-07-2008, 12:41 PM
If you're in the key of C , just type in E-7. If you want E Phrygian.

G7/E is also E Phrygian.
D-7/E
B-7b5/E
F/E

DMinMaj7/E
Esusb9
Fmaj+5/E
G7+11/E
A7b13/E
C#7alt/E

etc...

...lots of ways, it depends on what overall color you want.

gary
04-07-2008, 04:08 PM
edit: never mind. i'm wondering why you can't write a min7(b9) in BiaB.

DukeCity
04-07-2008, 06:42 PM
Regarding the OP: If you want Band-In-A-Box to generate a phrygian sounding chord, it's probably easiest to do it with a "slash" chord.
To get the sound of C Phryg. use either DbMaj7/C or Bbmin/C.

In the bigger picture, there are a number of ways that different jazz composers and improvisers label that same sound. I've even seen some charts that simply use "C Phryg" or "C Phrygian" as the "chord symbol". The goal for the person writing the chart to find the clearest, most expedient way to get the players to generate a phrygian sound.

I was transcribing a Bob Berg tune years ago to write a big band version of it. The bridge had a phrase that was sounding like G Phrygian. Transcribing the pianist's voicings I found that he was playing an AbMajor7 or AbMajor9 chord in his right hand and a G in the bass.

When I showed my transcription to Frank Mantooth (I was taking arranging lessons from him at the time), he said that he actually thought of that sound as Bb Lydian Dominant over a G bass. So he used a Bb13(#11) voicing in his right hand over a G bass in his left.

Different names for generating the same basic sound.

(note: this whole discussion applies to situations where the "phrygian sound" is more of a static, modal thing and would NOT apply in my mind if we're talking about what to play over the iii chord in a tonal/bebop tune. For example, an Em7 in a tune that's clearly in the key of C chord would probably be fleeting, and I wouldn't be thinking in terms of chord/scale approaches, but rather more tonal phrases/lines in the key of C.

Pete Thomas
04-07-2008, 07:07 PM
Keep it simple for modal playing.

As others have said, one chord can imply several modes, but a sequence with a couple of chords should nail it.

So Cm7 - Dbmaj7 alternating will give you a nice basis for phrygian impro.

Cm7 - F7 or Cm - Bb is a simple Dorian

Cm7 - Fm7 is a simple Aeolian

E_di_e
04-09-2008, 03:22 AM
Thanks all for your ideas.


I know that chords are a suggestion of a scale. I'm only doing my exercises, but if I can do it over a real Phrygian flavor, I want that.

Finally I've found what I was searching! WIKIPEDIA shows as follows at Phrygian article:

===QUOTE=====
Jazz musicians use the Phrygian mode over a "sus4(b9)" chord
===UNQUOTE=====

This is the link: Phrygian_mode (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_mode)



As I said, thanks to all, specially to saxjazz42 and Agent27, you gave the clue to use sus chord.


thanks + have fun!