Kohlert High and Low Pitch

[Peterogping]

I have borrowed a copy of the saxophone related pages of a Kohlert Söhne catalogue from 1939. It is stated that their saxophones are produced in normal and in "English" pitch.
Elsewhere, the pitches in use at the time are described as:
Tiefe Normalstimmung (870 Schwingungen).
Amerikanische Normalstimmung (880...), die jetzige usuelle tiefe Stimmung.
Englische Stimmung (902 ...).
Höhe Österreichische Stimmung (921...).

Translated to contemporary English:
Low normal pitch 435 Hz
American normal pitch 440 Hz, the presently used low pitch.
English pitch 451 Hz
High Austrian pitch 460,5 Hz.

So, in summary, in 1939 Kohlert still produced low (440) and high (451) pitch saxophones.

Has anybody ever encountered a Kohlert in high pitch ?

[tonfisch]

I never heard of high pitched Kohlerts,not even as a rumor.

[sax-ony]

No, but I see no reason to doubt that they were produced. G.H.Hüller of Marckneukirchen were certainly producing saxophones pitched at both American pitch (A=440) and "Diapason Normale" (A=435) in the late 1930s. My Hüller alto is stamped 870 on the side of the socket, while my tenor is stamped 880. Both have microtuners, and the difference in pitch is unnoticeable in practice. In fact I was amazed that a manufacturer would make such a slight distinction, so it is very interesting to learn than Kohlert were apparently doing the same. But I have not yet actually encountered any German or Czech horn in high pitch (thankfully!).

[milandro]

...... But I have not yet actually encountered any German or Czech horn in high pitch (thankfully!).

I have just encountered a Czech Amati Toneking in High pitch .....:(...I'm gonna send it back ....but it has a small and almost invisible H on top of the serial number , it is almost mint and as usual (this is the 3rd HP horn I stumble upon) the previous owner and alto player claims that she has played the horn 3 times in a big band without noting any pitch problems. I Would think this is impossible unless she couldn't hear herself and never even heard she was off by quite a bit

[sax-ony]

That is rotten luck. I would never have expected it on a Toneking. What is the serial number, please? Just wondering if it's in the Keilwerth sequence (2xxxx) or the Amati one (six digits). Matt Stohrer has taken some useful measurements of a Toneking alto with an Amati serial number that he got from me (no "H" above the number, I'm glad to say!) and it turns out to be significantly different from the Keilwerth ones - although it looks the same. See

http://www.stohrerwoodwinds.com/html/notepad.php?pad=15

(the final update, at the bottom).

[milandro]

Sorry, too late, I've brought it back and didn't think of writing down the serial number.
it had a minute H above the serial number a " best in the world" mark under the serial number and made in Made in Czechoslovakia stamp. I didn't measure it (measuring a bari is slightly less straightforward ....pun not intended....than another horn) but I immediately had the feeling that it was too small because of the neck being pointing up and not being straight like all the other baris that I've played (not so many but enough to have an idea). It played the most in tune at 457 Hz , in fact was very much in tune.....just not in the usual frequency! The reason I wanted to report it is exactly to warn others from this problem. Fortunately I've bought this locally and I could drive 150 Km to bring it back, gas money has been money spent to learn yet another lesson. When I picked it up yesterday I couldn't try it and I should have done (if it was a Dolnet I would have done that! :twisted: ) .

[milandro]

sax-ony, is there any significance, in regards to pitch, of a mark resembling a T on top of a 7, this mark appears at a position just lower than the serial number...:(...I might just have found out that my Kohlert 1935 tenor is a different pitch than the low American (if that is so this is the 4th horn in my history!)

[sax-ony]

milandro - mine has a mark below the serial number - just above the body/bow seam in fact - which might look like a T and a 7 combined, although I have always looked at it sideways and thought of it as a rather oddly shaped 4. I play everything obsessively against a digital tuner, and I have not found anything strange about the pitch or intonation on mine.

I have seen other odd little marks on very early Kohlerts and Keilwerths and have speculated that they are just makers' marks for use in assembly when manufacturers were using one another's parts. A mark denoting pitch would need to be obvious to the purchaser or player, so one would expect a clear "H" or something similar.

[milandro]

cheers sax-ony! It must be indeed the same mark. Maybe the tuning oddities are due to the neck, which is still a little dented and maybe also to the keys heights (although it doesn't look too open or too closed). Another problem could be the mouthpiece. Its original piece is too closed to be played but I will try that too, one thing is for sure, if that's incurable, it will probably go to a friend of mine who has an antique shop and sells decoration saxophones.

About marks, the Kohlert has a rather conspicuous 1 stamped on the bow

[sax-ony]

if that's incurable, it will probably go to a friend of mine who has an antique shop and sells decoration saxophones.

A wise idea, I think. These things are only worth so much time and fuss: you could be practising instead! And so could I when I'm fiddling about with my vintage horns....

[milandro]

Yeah, I really need to do that! Due to my travelling for my work, commuting between Holland and Italy, I have played very little lately .......

[Peterogping]

Milandro,
You don't write whether your horn with the T plays lower or higher.
If you look to my original post, I mention "Tiefe Normalstimmung = 870" so T could mean Tief = low ?
What do you say ?

[milandro]

yes it could and I will check it once gain later on .......before I bring it to the antique shop in the hope that he takes it :)

[milandro]

in the end the guy from the antique shop called me and I took the kohlert to him but had no chance to check it on the tuner again.

[milandro]

Milandro,
You don't write whether your horn with the T plays lower or higher.
If you look to my original post, I mention "Tiefe Normalstimmung = 870" so T could mean Tief = low ?
What do you say ?

I would say it could though, on the whole the pitch didn't seem to be very different from the normal on the otto link but it was somehow difficut to match to any other of my mouthpieces