View Full Version : just bought a zephyr special
i buy and sell saxes/musical instruments for fun .kind of a hobby. ive been a selmer mark 6 guy for going on 28 years. always mark 6s tenors and altos and kind of stock piled a few choice ones over the years. this guy calls one of my adds and has a old zephyr tenor to sell. just got back from his house. he pulls out a modern looking blue gig bag and opens it up. i couldnt believe what i saw. a near mint 99% zephyr special all original laq with incredible engraving silver neck, pearl key touchs the works! i was amazed at the quality. mind you ive bought and sold tons of horns but i was really impressed with this one. i put it together and put on my trusty dukoff and man!!! this thing blows the doors down. holy smokes! i dont usually get excited about a horn. i made my usual wholesale offer and he says make it 50 more daollars and you got it. bought it. needs a few pads and its gig ready. hows the intonation on these horns? the sound is rediculously big and it has a unique really cool tone. action is slick and easy. i had no intention of buying "myself" another tenor but i dont think this bad boy is leaving me. serial # is 271018. what year 40s? im going to change a few pads and i think ive found a tenor i can use! anybody playing these at your gigs. ive played a few s20s that couldnt match this particular horn. i was shocked!!
Mike Ruhl
12-03-2003, 10:35 PM
Welcome to the Wonderful World of Kings. Intonation should be fine - no better or no worse than any other horn. My late-1950s Super 20 tenor has great intonation, so long as the mouthpiece chamber isn't too small. Hard to believe you're in Cleveland, and this is the first really good King you've encountered.
thanks mike. there have been so many kings around here its rediculous. ive had a few zephyr altos that were really sweet horns. i was too young to know or appreciate how good they were back then. one was all silver (i had a gold laquered one too but the intonation on that one was a little sketchy compared to my mark 6)and i let it go back when i was in college and really needed the cash. got like nothing for it! . the s20s are great and i know that but so does everyone else. never been offered a deal on one. like the tenor s20s way more than the altos for some reason. the tenors are great! the altos i tried were really nice to but i thought the tenors were the bomb.i always try to find them but they arent as plentiful. king made so many clevelands,shooting stars and 613s that they are all over the place..ive found tons of 1920s kings that i considered not that great. never had my hands on a tenor zephyr but man i didnt know what they were all about. now i have some sweet " the martins" and a few really nice top hats tenors over the years. (didnt like the action on those"but i didnt realize what the zephyr tenors were all about . ill be looking for more.and a zephyr alto too. the last zephyr alto i found the guy wanted 2500.00 so i didnt make a buy. it was original but heavily used and kind of beat up. needed a totol repad .
Mike Ruhl
12-04-2003, 12:27 AM
I'll be interested to hear your on-going impressions of the Zephyr tenor, especially since you're an old Mark VI player. I got my Super 20 tenor back in '74, while in high school, and got so used to it that I could never adjust to a Mark VI.
Let us know if you use that zephyr on a gig, and how you think it compares to your other horns.
shmuelyosef
12-04-2003, 12:49 AM
The silver neck on the zephyrs makes a huge difference. I have a number of zephyrs, including a couple tenors; one with a sterling neck 282K is an awesome horn. For some settings, it is clearly superior to either my Selmer or Keilwerth. My other zeph tenor is totally beat...no lacquer, but recent pads and a good setup. With the silver neck..it too is awesome. But with the original neck, it is good but not great. I think those silver King necks had something going on!!
yes , well after i get my tech to go over it im definatly going to play it and take it to some gigs and see what happens. i can tell you right now that it has plenty of power .got a sneak preview of the sound. but i really have to get the pads and then ill really be able to make a comparison. it will be fun playing on something different !as soon as i figure out how to get my pics uploaded again(my pc crashed last month and just got it going recently but for some reason my ftp pics arent showing yet?...)ill post some pics and let you know how it works out on gigs.im definalty going to bring it out for gigs .its so cool looking and i think the sound is going to be somethig else. btw ,i have a 62 year old buddy that has been playing a super 20 with a silver neck and a metal berg and he has a great great sound. rivals any sax out there in my opinion. the only reason ive been a selmer guy is thats what i started on. everyone told me when i was 17 to get a mark 6 because"all the pros use them "so thats what i did. they are great horns but it will be cool to show up with this beauty for a change. my main tenor is a 103*** mark 6 that looks like hell but is a great players horn. this king looks as cool as a sax can look! ive got 3 gigs this week fri ,sat and sunday so ill be too busy this week to run over to the tech but im gong to get it fixed up real soon ,. cant wait!! what year is the 271018 serial # . like mid 40s? or close?
Tharruff
12-04-2003, 02:46 AM
jd,
I think that you are pretty close with your age guess of mid 40's for your Zephyr.
I don't have a serial number chart immediately at hand but I have a 240XXX Zephyr Alto which as I recall dated to be a 1942.
shmuelyosef
12-04-2003, 05:35 AM
271K = 1945
http://www.saxworx.com/king.htm
Mike Ruhl
12-04-2003, 02:22 PM
the only reason ive been a selmer guy is thats what i started on. everyone told me when i was 17 to get a mark 6 because"all the pros use them "so thats what i did. :lol: You don't have to apologize! That's how most "Selmerites" got their start.
swingerini
12-05-2003, 05:51 PM
JD -- you have the prime serial number Zephyr Spec. tenor
PRIME !!
The super 20 came out simultaneously in that S/N range.
I was corresponding with a guy a few years ago that was a devoted
VI player and has some nice 5-digit VIs, an SML, Dolnets, Super 20s
and he was just flipping out over the Zephyr Spec. in that EXACT range
of serial numbers .
He had played a buddy's that would not sell it, so this guy was feverishly
trying to track one down. One in the 271K range. He had played a
number of early Super 20s and found that around 300-310k were the
exceptional ones(tenors) but the earlier Zephyr Spec. tenors are even
more monstrous, he discovered .
So -- I have a great, great 328K Super 20 tenor & can't imagine it getting
appreciably better .... but I believe that tenor that you just got must
have something to it . I'd love to try it ! My tenor has the sound of
legends; once I tried it I didn't send it back !
wow. thanks for the info. yea i cant wait to have it fixed up and give it a go. i thought it was pretty special. must have goten pretty lucky . when played the first note when i bought it i knew this was a keeper!
ok cats. ive been working out with it a little today. my daighter is jome sick from school so i took the day off and stayed home with her and had a chance to work out with the zeph. as stated before ive been on selmer mark 6s forever so im used to that. here are my thoughts on the king zephyr/
1)the most beautiful looking sax i ever saw. all orig and near mint. engraving out the yinyang /silver neck etc...
2)sound is bold and great . comparable to my 103*** mark 6 . a little different but great
3)heres where i might offend the king guys and im sorry if i do. intonation:horrible!!!! all over the place with my tuner. with the 6 my notes from top to bottom hit dead on and just "lock"into place . with the king its all over the freakin place sharpe /flat way way off. what is the deal?? the pads? my being used to another horn? wrong pads on it? who knows? couldnt actually play this on a gig .ever.sorry guys but something is way out of whack with tuning
4)action. ok pretty slick . feels a little different for me but i could deal with it and get used to it.
final thoughts. trade or sell this horn and get another mark 6 or even a custom yamaha . id trade straight up for either. i might ebay it or trade it. too bad about the intonation.. i wanted to love it but its so off its "comical "sounding when i try to really play it. maybe its me but i collect old mark 6s and ive never had this problem with any of them . i did also have a chu alto that had major intantion problems with but besides that i havnt had this problem with other more "modern "selmers or yamahas. dont own a yamaha but i liked them a lot
hold it . i was too hasty . previous owner used the mpc only about a fraction of an inch off the tip of the neck. i greased up the neck and carefully got the mouth piece on about a 1/2/ inch from the end of the cork. its never been anywhere near that in the history of this sax. now i can get it to play in tune. i feel so stupid! it was supposed to go on there! duh! previous owner actually must have actually "tuned "the sax a half tone off. any ways now the i can get the notes to play in tune. with new pads it will be better . sill is not right on the moey as the mark 6 but if i play it ill learn its nuances.
ok just put in a about an hour more time on it. im liking it more and more. getting the intonation dialed in better and better and it still needs some pads etc but i think it might turn out to be very giggable now. sorry for slamming the intonation earlier.......
Berg-Man
12-12-2003, 11:24 AM
Reposted from earlier discussion...
Speaking only Tenor here I agree on some of the points made, but after owning a 325k S-20 , 360k Silver-Sonic and 450 K Silver-Sonic all in mint condition with new overhauls I have found the following compared to 3 different VI'S and a Series III I've owned. I am currently only playing a 120K VI right now. The biggest problem with Kings is the intonation for me. The last Silver - Sonic I owned played very well but I prefer a good VI. The intonation between intervals is not even close compared to the Selmer's I've owned and I've played the Kings for long periods trying to adjust. The focused sound of the VI I still prefer also. I think the players like Johnny Griffin, Moody, Lateef, Mobley , Rollins and others all found similar problems and moved on to Selmers. Any of these guys could still play Kings if they wanted to. I found that Conn 10m's also had superior intonation compared to the Kings. The VI I currently use is free blowing, great sounding and has as good intonation or better than the series III which was excellent. The Super 20's are great horns but not worth the effort IMO to constantly adjust to play in tune. These are my findings based on horns I've owned for extended periods of time not just tested on a whim.
Mike Ruhl
12-12-2003, 05:26 PM
Enough people talk about intonation problems with Kings that I have no choice but to believe that it's a real issue. But my 364xxx Super 20 tenor has always played very well in tune. Go figure.
Berg-Man
12-12-2003, 10:56 PM
Mike, I loved playing the Super-20 but the intonation was just too much. I think that the Kings are so free blowing that locking in the pitch can be an issue unless you play the horn for years.
Here's a quote from a Sal Nistico meets Tubby Hayes interview about Tenors >>
"Well I think basically your own sound comes through. To yourself at first it may sound strange, but it must come round eventually. I could never get on with a Conn, because I’ve got very small hands. I tried a King for a while—it had a similar vibrancy to the Conn and yet had the action of the Selmer. I liked it but I could not pitch the intervals—especially if I was going from, say, a top E or F down to G, or .something like that below. I gave it about two months try, but I just couldn’t play in tune I don’t know why".
swingerini
12-13-2003, 12:09 AM
JD-- I've been moving more to the King and Conn camp in the past
4, 5 years , myself.
If you'd like to to trade the Zephyr Special for a nice 128,000 VI tenor
I could get pretty interested , I'd like to have a good partner for my
Super 20 tenor which is 328,000 .
Email me if you'd be at all interested .
kneeljung@aol.com
well i actually play and collect mark 6s so id be interested. wait till you see the condition of this horn. you'll freak. check your email. jd
i think the king guys will enjoy these pics. this is the 271*** i picked up. there is a ding about the size of a small button on it as well as another tiny ding near it. other than that its as nice as you will ever find. let me know what you guys think.
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king2.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king3.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king4.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king5.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king6.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king7.jpg
http://users.adelphia.net/~jdgoldberg/king8.jpg
sw3119
12-23-2003, 07:45 PM
I have a Zephyr Tenor (216xxx) and I don't have any issues with intonation. On the other hand I have been playing my alto (mark VII)alot recently and found that with the selmer C* the intonation is very good. but when I switch to my metal link 6* I have a very hard time with the intonation, it's all over the place.
yes i have a friend that uses a mark 6 alto .early 1955 vintage and when he plays his c* its right in tune and when he uses his link 7 its way off. dont know why that is. maybe the link is just harder to control?in my opinion playing alto in tune is much tougher than tenor . it seems to be more demanding where intonation is concerned. tenor seems to be more "forgiving"
Berg-Man
12-24-2003, 12:38 AM
JD,
What's your honest opinion of the tuning after playing Selmer's? You've had the horn a coupla weeks now so what's the verdict?
well i can play it in tune . takes an effort some concentration on getting the pitch right. the sound us bold!!! bold as anything i ever messed with but i have to make an adjustment to get it to play in tune. thats only because im so used to the selmer. to me, its easier to play the selmer in tune but if i really made this my horn i would get used to it and become better on it. after a while the pitch would be there without even thinking about it.
ok . heres my take on the zephyr after taking it to the tech and having hime go over it.
still did not play in tune easily !! close but no cigar . now ive heard guys play these horns in tune . the sound is big and bold but whats the use if i couldnt get it dialed in like i can on my selmers.? so... i sold the horn on ebay .
after years of playing i think my ears can hear when the tone is dead on in tune and they just couldnt handle the zephyr. 1 not sharpe the next flat. no reason to it. it was really a little off on most notes but had no tendancy . you know like all the notes were flat or sharp. it was really both flat and sharp up and down the scales. i met a studio player in nashville last year and he told me that the studio wouldnt allow him to play his king alto because of intonation. he said he was forced to get a yamaha really fast.
so in conclusion i guess some people can play them in tune. i couldnt .
shmuelyosef
01-24-2004, 10:51 PM
I have many Zephs including a couple tenors...they work fine for me. I have loaned them to others to try on occasion. About half the people I loan them to say the intonation is horrible, even when they use the same mouthpieces that I find to work OK. They are all folks who play narrower bore horns like Selmer, Yamaha, etc... Anyone who plays a 10M seems to just fall right into the Zeph and several have offered to trade their 10Ms. Keilwerth folks often like the Zephs but can't handle the keywork.
swingerini
01-27-2004, 02:14 AM
I have many Zephs including a couple tenors...they work fine for me. I have loaned them to others to try on occasion. About half the people I loan them to say the intonation is horrible, even when they use the same mouthpieces that I find to work OK. They are all folks who play narrower bore horns like Selmer, Yamaha, etc... Anyone who plays a 10M seems to just fall right into the Zeph and several have offered to trade their 10Ms. Keilwerth folks often like the Zephs but can't handle the keywork.
That's it in a nutshell, Schmuel . :wink:
If you play the Conns and Kings reularly the tuning issue is not there.
Particularly if you play a Selmer with a certain style maximizing the
narrow foucs of the that sound, you're REALLY going to have problems
playing a King.
Your throat and embouchure has to be altered to set up the feedback loop
between your airstream and what the large bore .
period . :)
well that must be it. i couldnt get that bad boy in tune worth a sh%$
too bad because the sound was huge and the horn was pretty. i wanted it towork for me . ive heard others sound great on these horns so i know they will work for some people.
swingerini
01-30-2004, 12:53 AM
Excuse my somewhat unintelligble post :oops:
I really wish I had a chance to play that Zeph Spec if for no other
reason than posterity . Wish we could've got together .
I had some last minute reservations about letting my one VI tenor go;
although I don't play it as much as the Conns and Super 20 .
I had two chances, and couldn't make up my mind to do the switch ,
with ya JD . :?
Probably a mistake, but I guess I'll never know, no will I ?
yea,if we would of lived close enough i of course would have let you wail on that zephyr all you wanted. it was really strange but the guy that bought it off me on ebay hasnt emailed me one word. and he has had it since the jan 22nd. not a word . he paypaled me with no note and never emailed me prior or sence getting it . not a word. i guess he must have liked it because i havnt heard anything from him. no feedback or emails phone calls . nothing. well if you allready have a conn and a king nd a selmer i would say that you have a few good ones allready. but im like that with mpcs. (what if that was the one?....) i gotta get over that because i just know there are these dudes in third world countries playing on student horns scothtape and rubber banded together with student mouthpieces that can probably play circles around me. sadly i know they are out there so im trying to just practice and enjoy what i do have . well there will be another coming down the pike. there allways is....
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