The Clarinet BBoard: where the weak are killed and eaten.

[paulwl]

I recently signed onto the Clarinet BBoard at www.woodwind.org to ask advice about a metal Selmer clarinet I'm having trouble with. I was pleased to find quite a bit of helpful and friendly advice, freely given to a newbie.

While there, I happened in on another discussion. A young college-bound student was seeking strategies to overcome mental blocks that had stymied her in learning a very rigorous piece of music. She got some great help and understanding from some posters – but 2 in particular were outright contemptuous to her and her problem, saying she simply wasn't working hard enough and just sniveling and making excuses. Their grounds were that they were real world, no-excuses, suck-it-up professionals, and this was simply The Way It Is and What It Takes, as proven by the example of Robert Marcellus and other legendary instrumentalists.

I am not as a rule given to violence, but reading toxic crap like this made me sincerely wish to stab one of them thru the heart with his own R-13.

What's worse, there were others who piled on with "amens", basically eating it up and asking for seconds. In other words, parts of this board are potentially harmful to your mental and emotional well-being. Proceed with care.

If you must: http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/

Much useful knowledge to be gained from info searches, but think twice about actually participating, unless you know how to handle yourself around miserable inhuman perfectionist musicians.

Me, I gave them the best hell I could muster up and said goodbye. SOTW may not be utopia on a screen, but we generally have more understanding for our fellow musicians than this.

<$.02>

[MojoBari]

This goes on a lot in classical circles. I used to think all classical-only musicians were pompous, condensending, etc. It only takes a few encounters to be convinced of this.

Later, I was fortunate to land my kids some lessons with some of these musicians whom I had reservations of their personalities. I discovered some delightfull musicians and their circle of friends. Of course many teachers of students could not find work if they were jerks all the time. Maybe they are taking out their frustrations on the web forums.

[AMASAX]

yeah, knoweded what you mean on the clarinet board; plus, is usually not near as interesting as SOTW :)

any rate, on any BBoard, is usually best to have a thick
skin, and ignore lots of trash. Unfortunately, younger
players typically aren't 'hardened', and can easily be
offended/turned off.

it's a cold, cruel world out there, isn't it? :cry:

[Nefertiti]

Try going on Branford Marsalis's website forum. Man I've seen some guys get wailed on in there also. It's pretty discouraging to see people treated this way. And the people saying this crap say they're doing it out of a sense of thruthfulness and "that's what the person needs to hear to be in the real world". I find throughout the years I spend less and less time with these obnoxious anal retentive arrogant perfectionists who have no life and try to make others lives and outlooks as miserable as theirs. I like spending time with people who enjoy life and contributing to help others enjoy life also.I do believe people need to hear the truth but this needs to be from an informed teacher or role model not some internet identity you don't know. I'm glad I got that out of my system. :evil:

[Nefertiti]

Maybe with the classical guys it all comes out of a frustration that they can't improvise.I might be like that if I just played classical music and never could let loose. :wink:

[max]

You're all a bunch of brainless slugs! Get back to practicing!!

:wink:

[paulwl]

it's a cold, cruel world out there, isn't it? :cry:
Yeah. And there are people who want to keep it that way. :evil: And for what? Art? Themselves? Approval? Salvation?

Some people are always going to be like this, but it seems as tho parts of the music world positively cultivate it. It's not just the naîve young people, either, who are touched. I'm 37, and cruelty just p!sses me off.

It's pretty discouraging to see people treated this way. And the people saying this crap say they're doing it out of a sense of thruthfulness and "that's what the person needs to hear to be in the real world". I find throughout the years I spend less and less time with these obnoxious anal retentive arrogant perfectionists who have no life and try to make others lives and outlooks as miserable as theirs. I like spending time with people who enjoy life and contributing to help others enjoy life also.I do believe people need to hear the truth but this needs to be from an informed teacher or role model not some internet identity you don't know. I'm glad I got that out of my system.
So am I. Thanks.

What's scary is to read posters who, up to that point, seemed to be reasonable, well-adjusted, easygoing personalities, start saying matter-of-factly how irritated they get with the warm-fuzzy and the touchy-feely. The hard@ss culture has really been assimilated to an alarming degree, so much so that one can safely speak of an attitude like Nefertiti's as "nonprofessional" (as distinct from "unprofessional").

[Bootman]

People who need to attack others are normally just exposing their own insecurities and lack of confidence as a player. If you need to attack others to make yourself feel justified, there is something deeper wrong in there. Think about how you would feel if you were in the other persons shoes, tread carefully, seek to help through words of wisdom, not attacking the other person.

Professionals don't reply to these threads usually because the pettiness and lack of understanding in others makes it pointless in trying to expound on various ideas. You can learn things from everybody, even your newest student. Remember seek to help, not to destroy. You will reap the benefits.

[David Spiegelthal]

I frequent both boards (this one and the clarinet board) and "I was there" for the discussion in question --- it really wasn't as bad as all that. There were a couple of rather insensitive posts, but farther down the thread some other folks smoothed things over and gave it all some perspective (so it seemed to me). I admit to some bias as I was one of the posters to the thread in question ---- but I've been reading both BBs for a fairly long time and I don't, in general, find the clarinet world to be more cutthroat or nasty than the sax world --- different, but not worse.

[paulwl]

Maybe so, Dave. I may have been so p!ssed I couldn't think straight.

Here's the funny thing, though: I hate blowing clams myself. But I don't believe in perfection either.

[Gordon (NZ)]

"I've been reading both BBs for a fairly long time and I don't, in general, find the clarinet world to be more cutthroat or nasty than the sax world --- different, but not worse."

Me too.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Remember seek to help, not to destroy. You will reap the benefits.

I love that. It's so true. Too many people spend too much time complaining and tearing others down.

[Roger Aldridge]

One thing I've learned from both forums is to take everything with a grain of salt and do reality checks with your own experience and at times reality checks with musician friends whom you know and trust. After all, we typically don't know how other Forum members ACTUALLY PLAY. Know what I mean? The opinions and information given out on the Forum may or may not be accurate. Thus, discernment is very important.

It's my sense that the experiences we have on the Forums are pretty much a reflection of our society. We can run into people who behave badly here as well as on the road or in a store. Some folks need a reminder about what should be common manners and how one should treat others.

[Anji]

I think there is a good reason we don't hear from any famous players on these Bulletin Boards (unless they're from 'Almost Heaven')...

...they're putting in time behind the horn.


Most of the posters at 'Sneezy' are just kids.

I don't generally care about what a 12 year old has to say, sorry.
Clarinet players, in particular, are not the most sympathetic people.

No BASS clarinetists, and doublers, for the most, are even tempered.

*******
I still think that the BBS should be segregated by age - so there.

[paulwl]

Those of you who say "know the messenger before you trust the message" are absolutely right. OTOH, some of the stuff that hacked me off couldn't possibly have been written by a 12-year-old. Maybe by a disillusioned and angry professional in deep denial...surely there must be some :?

I did take a quick look at Branford's forum. Same breadth of opinion there. I didn't see any out & out flamefests, but there's trash-talk, arrogance, arrogance disguised as advice or even humility (which really frosts me because I feel so guilty rejecting it)...

I don't know why I even get involved, except that I am sometimes what they call a "depressive-compulsive," who feels inferiority and seeks the input of others for what he thinks is a "reality check," but instead of gauging his ego, ends up gouging it. I guess I suspect that, although music is indispensable in my life, I still don't love it enough to face the really miserable side of it, and that because of that I don't deserve any of the joy, either.

[MojoBari]

I still think music builds better character than sports. At least you do not have parents brawling at concerts.

[paulwl]

I dunno. I find the average Yankee fan to be far better mannered than the typical matinee-goer at Carnegie Hall. More at ease, less self-regarding.

I'd say the same thing for SOTW vs. Clarinet BBoard – which I am back on now, depressive-compulsive that I am. I guess it's my way of making up for years of too-forgiving clarinet practice.

[Fred]

I post on both boards - using the same name. I played clarinet for years and am now - at age 52 - enjoying saxophone. Man . . . I wish I'd done this in high school!

I do believe that there is a subtle difference in the environment in which sax students and clarinet students develop. Consider this: What possibilities exist out there for clarinet (only) players? Aside for a few dixieland bands, you've got to rise to the top of a mighty heap to find a few good playing venues. And as for dixieland (or whatever other non-legit format you name), the VAST majority of clarinet players go through college without ever learning vibrato - much less learning to improvise. So the world of the clarinet player is defined by legit standards, with less room for having a playing life you just enjoy. The competition at that level is fierce; I never wanted to go there. So after college, the clarinet went away for 20+ years.

Sax players, on the other hand, have both more opportunities and better training for a life of enjoyable playing. Sax is more common in small ensembles, and the parts often don't necessarily require you to be a virtuoso to sound pretty good doing what you're doing. For those that are extremely talented, that talent is better appreciated by the average citizen than is the clarinet player's talent. I mean, if clarinet were that popular with the general population, wouldn't there be more clarinet players playing with groups in the public eye?

So does this justify a snotty attitude? Of course not. But it does help explain the cold reality that sometimes creeps into clarinet discussions.

[Dave Dolson]

Just a comment about Dixieland clarinet players. It is one thing to play SAINTS and BILL BAILEY (or any of the many warhorse-tunes wearing a straw hat and arm garters), but an entirely different thing to play PERDIDO STREET BLUES, EGYPTIAN FANTASY and BURGUNDY STREET BLUES like those tunes are supposed to be played. DAVE

[sinkdraiN]

I post on both boards and find no problem with the clarinet page. The great posts definately outweigh the garbage which I filter out anyway. The clarinet page has really improved my playing. I have asked many questions and I always recieve enough information to fix the problem. The internet allows you to get a huge bag of perspectives. To some thats a negative but i think thats the one really great thing about the internet

[paulwl]

[...]the world of the clarinet player is defined by legit standards, with less room for having a playing life you just enjoy. The competition at that level is fierce; I never wanted to go there. [...]
So does this justify a snotty attitude? Of course not. But it does help explain the cold reality that sometimes creeps into clarinet discussions.
That's a perspective I'd never really thought about, Fred. Thanks. :)

I do enjoy the occasional threads on jazz or Selmer/Conn/metal instruments. (Buffet is the "Selmer" of the clarinet world these days, Selmer a perpetual also-ran.) There you don't encounter quite the same 'tude. I hope the reason isn't because none of those folks play all that well... :?

[gary]

Well. Of course you all know the bottom line to all of this:

Q: "How do you make a professional clarinetist's car more aerodynamic?"
A: "Take the pizza delivery sign of the top of it!" :twisted:

[Draconistarum]

Well. Of course you all know the bottom line to all of this:

Q: "How do you make a professional clarinetist's car more aerodynamic?"
A: "Take the pizza delivery sign of the top of it!" :twisted:

I'll have you know my car is aerodynamic enough with that sign!

[UNTplayer]

I read, and occasionally post to, the clarinet BB using the ID "Burt". Yes, there are a few insensitive posts, but most of the posts are quite helpful. There are also a few attempts at humor.

[paulwl]

Yes, there are a few insensitive posts, but most of the posts are quite helpful.
The strange thing is that the most insensitive posters often have real and useful information to impart. I get from these posters a snippy, snotty, aggressively smug feeling. As if they came out of a teaching environment that believes much more in the "stick" than the "carrot."

Why else would they so often flavor their advice confrontationally? Is there a paranoia that anything else is "coddling" and will ruin a musician?

At this writing, I seem to have run into a wall of resistance from 3 veteran BBoarders as to whether truly great playing is possible without sightreading. I argue in the affirmative, making reference to jazz virtuosi. They argue in the negative, making reference to the time and money constraints of pro ensembles. To me those are logistical issues, not artistic ones. And on it goes, the other posters totally unable to grasp the idea that someone unlike themselves could make music worthy of the name.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Their argument works against them more than helps them. Given the present state of rehersal time for most orchestra's, you can easily argue that the ability to sightread effectively shortens the performers prep time (practice time) before rehersals begin. If the performers aren't given the pieces until the first rehersal then the ability to sightread effectlively is going to be even more important. I know that most orchestra's play pretty much the same rendition of a piece for a period of years but at some point someone is going to place something new in front of them in spite of what the audience wants.

[paulwl]

They take it further yet. One insists that a cold performance by an experienced sightreader is preferable to a rendition practiced and polished many hours by a talented non-sightreader! Something to the effect that "all they'll play is the notes." I should think that argument could be laveled against cold sightreading as well.

I guess it's the difference between executing the music and living with the music. Who cares whether it means anything to you or how it makes you feel? Artistic achievement is no more or less than reproducing the black specks and expression marks at a rate of 100%.

Funny, isn't it. Musicians dread being outmoded by machines, then strive to be as much like machines as possible. We become what we most fear.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I would rather have the practiced and polished rendetion everytime. At least that person had the opportunity to get inside the piece. In classical music it's not very common to be playing a piece cold in front of an audience unless you're a ringer or last minute replacement. Even then most of the pieces are pretty standard and odds are good that you've run across it before somewhere.

[MojoBari]

So the clarinet board is like this evil parallel universe where you only advance by stamping out the cordial, "unprofessional" players. Paul is our good Captain Kirk when he goes over to visit. Who do we get in return...? :argue:

[Vortex]

Well, most clarinetists are classical musicians, and most of those are orchestra-snobs. I personally know few people who are into this classical/orchestral crowd and aren't arrogant grouches - even the guitarist Malmsteen, who plays the rock-n-roll guitar like a violin, is accused by many of being an arrogant a-double-s. Those who get too into having perfect pitch, being able to articulate incredibly fast and nail every single 32nd-note run at exactly the right tempo and have no life besides that generally have a bit of pent-up rage inside them that makes them really WEIRD! Just stay away from them and let them enjoy their Vivaldi and Handel, we'll keep boppin. Who cares what the hlel they're gonna do with their lives.

A little clarinetist-bashing while I'm at it:
1 - Wanna have some fun? Put the lead-sheet for "Ladybird" in front of a clarinetist and tell them to solo to it. Watch the various shades of green/blue/red their face becomes, but watch out for long-distance projectile vomiting. And if they do manage to play anything, say "Good, now can you use some original rhythms and something other than arpeggios?"
2 - How do you get a date with a cute clarinetist? First explain to her what a male is.
3 - Put some icy-hot on their reed sometime - now THAT's entertainment i.e. you can play some blues while their lip turns blue.

[ShadowSlicers]

I'm not sure where I stand. I play a lot of Saxophone "legit" rep and love to play classical....Yes, I do like hitting every 32nd note. I guess there is just something different in us, Saxophone players, that is just more relaxed.

[paulwl]

So the clarinet board is like this evil parallel universe where you only advance by stamping out the cordial, "unprofessional" players. Paul is our good Captain Kirk when he goes over to visit. Who do we get in return...? :argue:
:oops: Really now, Mojo. Maybe I'm just an idle malcontent, throwing beer bottles and setting trash fires.

As to the payoff, I'm very close tonight to ordering 7 or 8 more clarinet lamp kits... :?

I personally know few people who are into this classical/orchestral crowd and aren't arrogant grouches [...]
Those who [...] have no life besides that generally have a bit of pent-up rage inside them that makes them really WEIRD!
Well...I know what it's like to have a bug up someplace (else why would I have started this thread?). But I'm not prepared to accept that the great canon of Western art music would not exist without the deliberate cultivation of unhealthy personality disorders. If beauty in music can only be created thru neurosis and misery, maybe it's time to go back to howling and banging rocks.

[Gordon (NZ)]

[quote="paulwl...The strange thing is that the most insensitive posters often have real and useful information to impart. I get from these posters a snippy, snotty, aggressively smug feeling. As if they came out of a teaching environment that believes much more in the "stick" than the "carrot." ....[/quote]

Whew!! I thought you were addressing that personally at me, until I realised that the thread you were thinking of is one I have had nothing to do with.
:-) (I've had quite a few accusations re my manner) :)

[paulwl]

Certainly not you, Gordon...although you bring a certain fierce reverence to beginning flute teaching (well leavened with levity), the most that could be said about you is that you don't suffer fools gladly.

The same could be said about prominent Clarinet BBoarders, for widely inclusive definitions of "fools."

Anyway, it seems I've been intemperate one too many times over there, so I've asked to be taken off the list for good this time.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:loc_u-gt32UJ:www.fibernut.com/motivation.jpg

[bassclarinet]

Ah come on Paulwl, don't give up in the middle of a good fight!. I just hopped over to "sneezy" and searched your past threads. Caustic, maybe, learnedly so. The give and take, those quick rapier thrusts and parrys are going to be sadly missed by me. Please don't leave the lists before the next joust. Bob A

[paulwl]

Ah come on Paulwl, don't give up in the middle of a good fight!. I just hopped over to "sneezy" and searched your past threads. Caustic, maybe, learnedly so. The give and take, those quick rapier thrusts and parrys are going to be sadly missed by me. Please don't leave the lists before the next joust. Bob A
Well Bob, it's like this...The people primarily responsible for setting the tone of a moderated board are its moderators. And 2 of the 4 people I regularly found myself tangling with are moderators. One finally blew his stack in email to me, at which point I told him to take my name down from the board.

So thanks for the kind words, but it had to end, and I wanted to be the one to end it.

Speaking of which, I'd like to ask our moderators to kindly close this thread down.

[Hurling Frootmig]

Speaking of which, I'd like to ask our moderators to kindly close this thread down.

Done