Original mouthpiece for "stretch" Conn 18M soprano

[keuhkoman]

I finally find a mouthpiece that is most likely the original one for stretch Conn 18M soprano! A horn that does not seem to work with any other mouthpiece.Unfortunately somebody has worked on the facing and the chamber of this piece...with bad results. I wonder if it could still be used as a model to make a copy?

[MojoBari]

I saved this post from May 2003. I'm not sure who wrote it, but it sounds reasonable:

The "stretch" 18M needs a mpc that has both a throated chamber (like modern
round chamber mpcs, only placed a little further back toward the tip) and a
short shank. Nothing even remotely like this is made today, and even
customizing would be tough, because most mpcs have the throat too far
forward and won't go on the neck far enough to tune even if you cut down
the shank. With a piece such as a cut-down rubber Link, most of the horn
will play in tune, and the sharpness you get on older sops won't be there -
a definite plus. But you'll get progressively flatter below low D, with low
B and Bb nearly 1/2 tone flat. The 18M tone really is different to me. It
has a more compact, "ringing" quality than the older Conn straight, while
retaining that same round, mellow undertone. It reminds me very much of
Johnny Hodges' soprano work - in fact I'm convinced Hodges (a long time
Conn user) was playing an 18M in the Ellington band in the 30s. Original
18M mouthpieces are literally impossible to find - even most 18Ms come
without one. I found a cheapie, vintage, throated bakelite piece that
allows my 18M to play in pretty good tune, but doesn't have much tone.
I'd think the calculations needed to recreate the original mpc would be
very tricky indeed, unless left to a real expert like Ralph Morgan.

Mojo note: beyond chamber volume calculations, there are no other design calculations that exist to create mouthpiece designs based on sax design. Ralph claims to have some additional charts to assist in mouthpiece and facing design work, but from what he has shared with us, the results seem to be based more on the initial assumptions and not the analysis. Still, the charts are probably good guidelines since he makes fine pieces. But others make fine pieces with dimensions that look nothing like Morgans.

[Mike Ruhl]

Mojo - you're quoting paulwl, from this thread:

http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=3537&highlight=stretch+18m

[MojoBari]

Thanks. I thought it might be, but I missed saving the author.

[Stencilman]

Interesting in the quote above about throat chamber size and positioning.

C-sopranos suffer from tuning problems, much of which I believe is due to mouthpiece mismatches. I did lots of experimenting with a hacked up Rico Graftonite to create a couple of pretty good C-soprano mouthpieces that play in tune.

Here is the configuration I ended up with: Starting from the tip, the mouthpiece has a high, short baffle followed by a large, hollowed-out chamber followed by a squeeze throat. These are the only soprano mouthpieces that I have that play in tune on my Buescher C-soprano. I suppose that this configuration puts the bulbous chamber quite a bit farther out than the typical soprano mouthpiece.

The worst mouthpiece on this horn is the C-soprano mouthpiece that came with it. It is a no-name piece that is very short and fat and has a large chamber. The most significant difference between this moutpiece and mine is the distance of the bulbous portion is from the end of the sax neck.

This all leads me to believe that it would be possible (and fun to try) to modify a soprano mouthpiece for the Conn 18M. I'd sure would love to have one of these saxes in my little collection!

[Bill08690]

Here's where it all started.

Gayle

I read that the Conn 18M Sops after ser 227K were better than previous
models. Is there an engraved "18M" on these saxes and how do they compared to the Buescher Sop?

Thanks;
Bill >>


Hi Bill,

The later Conn sopranos made after the 1929 (220,xxx serials) have a very different sound and focus. They are 3/4 of an inch longer because the bore was made smaller. These later sopranos are very mouthpiece sensitive. They need a smaller chambered mouthpiece than the earlier vintage horns. Intonation is terrible without the right mouthpiece. I've had 4 or 5 in the past but now I don't usually handle or look for these later horns because of this problem.

I prefer the Conn straight sopranos made before the 18M model.
Gayle Fredenburgh vintagesax.com

Gayle is such a sweetheart, she has helped me with a lot of good information.

[Mike Ruhl]

Hmm...makes me wonder if there isn't a Runyon that would work. Maybe the Smoothbore or XL...

[Bill08690]

There was a suggestion that maybe a Sopranino mpc might be a starting point. I think MojoBari might have mentioned that to me.

I wonder if a Selmer squeez throat piece might be a good starting point with some epoxy filler.

[chising]

This might sound strange, I've try many different mouthpieces on my "Stretched"18M Conn, the Selmer S80 definitly wouldn't work, too flat for it, even the Conn microtuner mouthpiece, but you know what, you might not believe it, the Yamaha 7C works, push it as further as you can. I also try it on an Vintage Babbit round chamber mouthpiece, it works but not as good as the Yamaha. You can cut a few mm on the shank on the Yamaha according to you need. The 7C is cheap, worth a try and let me know if it works out for yours. I love my 18M, it's very different sound from my other Buescher TT Sop, but definitly not a bad horn at all. Cheers.

[keuhkoman]

Hi,

I tried the Yamaha you suggested ( and I shortened the shank a little) and it works pretty ok. Only the low c-b-Bb are very flat... I wonder if this is due to the mouthpiece or is the horn like that? Same thing with the low notes happened with the mouthpiece that supposed to be the original (but worked on the facing and the chamber) 18M mouthpiece (Can´t tell if it is original for sure cause there are no markings left).

[chising]

Hi keuhkoman,

As for my horn, it get's a little flat on the low C-B-Bb but not dramatic, my tech guy told me instrument were designed that way that the high note will be slightly sharp and low note will be slight flat, and everything else in the middle stays in such way it will sound "natural" to the human ears (I have no idea this is true or not but it seems to make sense). Try to feel your horn instead of blow it note by note in front of a tuner. I also tried the Selmer Super session and it works well, kind of similar to the Yamaha on the 18M, it has a very short shank so you don't have to modify anything. Experiment with a harder reed may give you a better result too, let's keep each other update on this perfect "18M" mouthpiece hunt!