Saxophones are only meant for dummies?

[tubbycub]

A trombonist acquaintance who was also a band instructor once sacarstically mentioned that the sax is the easiest instrument to learn and play on this planet. He also said that he normally assign his weakest students on the sax, it was an obvious dummies' choice if they want to play a wind instrument.

Can anyone here live with this insult? :evil:

though I do agree that the sax is one of the easiest instruments to play BADLY on....

[Bartleby]

Yes, I should think even a trombone player might be able to play a sax badly if he practices long and hard in the hope of being able to play it well.

[The Martin]

Well everybody knows that a gentleman is someone who knows how to play trombone and doesn't :wink:


I play both and managed to learn to play trombone by myself in six month wel enough to become 1st t-bone player in a Bigband and another orchestra.
I'M NOT A GENTLEMAN I KNOW :twisted:

[gary]

Having played several instruments, I came to the feeling that they're all hard, if that's even a proper term to use. Some are easy to begin with and others aren't. But then, for those instruments with "easy" beginnings there are also higher eypectations of what one must do on the instrument.

Example. You can play the entire range of the piano at the first sitting. To do that on trumpet would be murderous. But, perhaps because of that and other physical aspects that a trumpeter must overcome, s/he is not expected to play with the kind of range and flexibility as a pianist. On the other hand, the repertoire, memorization, length of compositions, etc. that a pianist must learn is both broader and deeper than for said trumpeter.

IMO some come easy some don't but eventually all instrumentalist hit a border where the expectations for that particular instrument all become a challenge in their own right.

By the way. The band director's and idiot.

[Lambik]

To just get a sound out of a saxophone, you don't have to be a musical genius. The fingerings are quite easy (cfr. recorder), the embouchure is very flexible.

But there's a difference between getting a simple song out of a horn and playing the horn well.

I can play some songs on guitar, but not in the world could I play a simple unseen line on guitar.

To learn, saxophone is easy, but the challenge is to master it.

[steve]

I had a band director compare the trombone with a violin in difficulty...His point was that with a slide trombone you have to be able to hear whether a note is flat or sharp. and adjust the slide accordingly ( except first position), like the violin which is fretless. All saxophones are out of tune by nature and the player has to ajust the embrouchere to hit the note right on. I play both sax and trombone..... IMO the sax is much more difficult to play well.

[GHawk]

Difficulty doesn't matter. People who play saxophone well are indeed blessed......and gigging opportunities are better than for trombonists. Sounds like jealousy to me :D

[GHawk]

P.S. - You can call me dummy! Just say it loud so that I can hear over the Coltrane that's playing in my cd player.

[Morry]

I've always felt that the saxophone is easy to play, but difficult to play well. If it was easy to play well, I would :-)

[johnsax]

It pains me that there are morons like this in musical education. Many people (young people in particular) can be very susceptable to peer pressure and the opinions (even misguided ones) of others. These types of comments are poorly informed and it pains me to think that some kids might take them seriously and therefore have LESS respect for their chosen instrument.

To put things in perspective, what I think he means to say is that it is a relatively easy instrument to play BADLY. After a few short lessons, one can learn to play a complete major scale and theoretically play many simple songs poorly. This may not be true of some other instruments such as oboe, violin or even trombone as well as others.

I myself have been playing alto for almost a year and have found it anything but easy. However I have played classical guitar for over 30 years. YIKES! To me, the guitar is probably the EASIEST OF ALL instruments to play badly. Learn three chords in only one lesson and you're playing a huge array of popular songs! But take it from an experienced classical guitarist, there's a lot more to playing guitar well than that!

So if any kids are reading this thread, take heart - the sax may be easy to play BADLY but listen to Parker, Desmond, Hawkins, Hodges or any of YOUR personal sax heroes and ask yourself this question: How easy is it to play like them?

These people are masters and any one of them could probably have taken up a guitar, a violin, trombone or a kazoo and sound like a virtuoso!

That's just my opinion but I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong!

John

[Subtone Sam]

A trombonist acquaintance who was also a band instructor once sacarstically mentioned that the sax is the easiest instrument to learn and play on this planet.

well,maybe you could urge him to phone Brecker and tell him that too?

[SAXISMYAXE]

Well that may be, but I can assure you that a Sax player can expect to get a gig a lot more frequently than a trombone player! What is that old joke: "What is the definition of an optimist?"......."A trombonist with a beeper" :twisted:

P.S. I dig the trombone too.

[tubbycub]

I know, it's really sick to hear such people making such irresponsible remarks. I have to add on that his herd of people are starting to think like him too.

[frankbiff]

You shouldn't take offense, its comming from a band director who's job it is to teach kids to play band music. So, the sax has relativly easy fingering and being a single reed, most students can make some sounds and play simple tunes befor the trumpet, t-bone, flute, oboe players etc. can. And to a band director, that makes it an easy instrument to play, simple as that. If a kid is floundering on t-bone and can't get the idea of a register key on clarinet, or the hang of blowing a flute, then try the sax, it will probably work; with a closed mpc the embocher is a little forgiving and soon Jr. will be playing in the band.

Of course we all know that to get beyond school band music and get the characteristic sax sound and style takes a lot of hard work and is not easy. But neither is jazz trumpet.

[saxmangeoff]

I remember when I started music in the 5th grade. I had chosen saxophone and went to the music store with my mom to get an alto saxophone. The man at the music store said that I didn't want a saxophone, I wanted a clarinet. I said, no, I wanted a saxophone. He told me that if you start on clarinet, it's fairly easy to take up saxophone. If you start on saxophone, it's rather difficult to take up clarinet. But I wanted to play saxophone, not clarinet. So I left with a saxophone. (I'm still a bit amazed that I stuck to my guns on that one.)

Many years later (about 20), my son decided he wanted to play clarinet. So, of course, I had to give it a shot. Yikes! What a humbling experience. It was indeed very hard to learn to play clarinet. Meanwhile, my clarinet-playing son picked up a saxophone and started playing it. But you know what, I eventually got the hang of clarinet, and can even play across the infamous "break" without hurting myself or others.

My point? Like others have already said here, each instrument has a differing amount of initial difficulty. Clarinets have the registers to deal with. Flutists have the whole embouchure and register thing to deal with. Double reeds have a lot of issues to deal with. All brass players have to deal with the idea of hitting the right harmonic. Etc. So (and this is what I've told my own kids) pick an instrument because you like how it sounds and want to play it. They're all hard to learn, but if you have the motivation, you'll do it.

Geoff

[paulwl]

It pains me that there are morons like this in musical education.
Maybe Mus Ed is making them...too many teachers who really wanted to be players and know the most about their own axe and its traditions.

Parker, Desmond, Hawkins, Hodges [...] are masters and any one of them could probably have taken up a guitar, a violin, trombone or a kazoo and sound like a virtuoso!
Hawkins was a multiinstrumentalist as a boy – even played some cello and was a more than competent pianist.

I have my doubts about Bird or Desmond and the violin, though. these men were naturals, go-their-own-wayers. The fiddle comes with tons of baggage in that little case – the premier platform for virtuosi, with a very steep initial learning curve, a murderously rigorous pedagogy, and no reward in self-expression for years.

The saxophone is very different from that. It is as democratic as the violin is patriarchal.

Right from the beginning it gives small rewards. The more you put into it, the bigger the reward comes back. It isn't long before you can concentrate on musicality and expression even in your daily warmup. It was almost meant for the naturals and go-their-own-wayers – not the least because of the unlimited voices it can create.

[David B]

I love the generally positive outlook and mentality in this thread that seems to be a general theme for most sax players. Perhaps my perspective can add to it. I am a "late bloomer". I began playing sax 2 years ago, with no previous training or schooling other than years of listening and enjoying most types of music, as a means of encouraging my daughter, who was just starting out on clarinet in school.

Well, I started out teaching my self and blew through the Elementary Rubank in about a month. I thought I was pretty hot stuff. Got the intermediate and some Aebersold play alongs and realized I was in over my head. What everyone has said in here is correct. It was relatively easy to learn, but it is difficult to learn to play well, as I'm sure most instruments are.

Anyway, I found myself a good teacher and am currently working on Rubank Advanced and Jazz Conceptions by Jim Snidero. I can truly say that I look forward to my lesson each week and my daily practice is the most relaxing part of my day. I wish i had more time to devote to it, but I'm sure most of you non-pro's can relate to the demands of business and family ( 4 kids spanning elementary, middle and high school...lol).

A little anecdote from my teacher regarding the misguided attitude of this band director. My teacher plays clarinet, flute and sax with our philharmonic orchestra. He told me that when a piece requires him to play sax some of the other woodwinds actually move farther away or turn their backs to him. One clarinetist even puts up a plexiglass barrier between them. :lol:

Well, just wanted to share my experiences with you guys. I really love this web site, and all you other beginners out there ( or intermediaters) keep on plugging.

[saxmangeoff]

I thought I throw in a quote I read many years ago. It was an interview with Mark O'Connor (the fiddler). I don't remember the magazine. Anyway, the interviewer asked if fiddle was a hard instrument to play. O'Connor responded, "Any instrument is hard if you hope to play it very well."

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[JfW]

Just my non-expert opinion and personal observation:

The fact that the saxophone is considered the easiest instrument in a typical woodwind band almost universally is based on it's rather easy initial learning curve. Playing it at an intermediate level provides an experience on par with any other instrument, however.

Ever notice how poor the tone of a younger saxophone player is compared to other players in a JR/SR High wind ensemble? Personally, I think that development of saxophone tone lags behind the progress of other instruments, on average. I think it may be due to most beginning players finding that optimal saxophone embrochure to be more elusive and counterintuative than say, clarinet embrochure.

Anyway......... my opinion.

[retread]

JfW, I wholeheartedly agree. As a sax and clarinet player , I think it is much easier to get a good tone on clarinet.

Also, let's recall Bootman's description of a trombone: "A manually operated pitch approximation device."

[michaelbaird]

I've always been told the saxophone is one of the easiest to learn but one of the hardest to master. I started on the tenor then went to flute, which was easy to pick up. Then went to the oboe which was easy to learn technique but the reed phuuuuck. I learned the clarinet. I think it is harder because it jumps a 12th with the register key. The bassoon makes no sense in some of the fingerings, it is my next adventure. I wish I would have learned the clarinet first, but I may never have played the tenor if I went a different way. I'm happy with the way things have turned out. I'll be buried with my tenor.

[The Martin]

"A manually operated pitch approximation device."

:twisted:

I'll use that one next time I see my collegae t-bone players. THNX

[Ol Danl]

A few years back I was helping an old friend (also former music major) move his family. I saw he had an old mandolin in a box. Since I have spent a couple of decades getting to a really mediocre level on the mandolin and have the greatest respect for people like Grisman, Bush, Ricky Skaggs, etc., I asked him how well he played, what kind of stuff he was trying to learn, etc. He told me he didn't think the instrument was worth the effort it took to learn it. This guy is a trombone player. Maybe this is just a trombone player attitude?

[Pete]

I've been told and I can somewhat verify that the hardest instruments to play are the oboe and French Horn. While I do have some major problems playing flute, there must be a reason why there are dozen of flute players in school bands.

Way back in high school, I was "stuck" on bass clarinet because I was an "average" clarinet player and we had about 25 of those (we had 30 clarinet players total). Our baritone sax player eventually was graduated and then I was "stuck" on bari because I was an "average" bass clarinet player and we had two more of those.

I remember that at my first graded test, I got a higher score than any of the alto or tenor players. I then went to an All-State band competition and got a solid "B" on my solo, Bach's Cello Suite #4.

I had played sax for all of six months by that time.

I do tend to think that the saxophone is a relatively easy instrument to learn and play moderately well (how 'bout "play well enough for someone to know what song you're playing"?). It's also very easy for someone to pick up the horn and teach himself how to play moderately well: this was one of the reason for the 1920's sax craze. To play very well and extend your range beyond 2.5 octaves requires work. To play ANY instrument well requires work.

Remember: A. Sax wanted a bass clarinet with more power and simplified keywork.

[Tenorsaxer]

The hardest instrument to play is the violin. But I would have to say that the Trombone is probably harder to master than the saxophone.

[gary]

I've been told...that the hardest instruments to play are the oboe and French Horn.
Much of the playing range of the Horn is in the upper partials which, in the case of a brass instrument, means you can play diatonically without even using the valves. This also means the ear has to be really good and the embouchure quite sensitive to avoid over- or under shooting notes. In that regard the sax, in it's conventional written range, is a piece of cake.

Since bone keeps recurring on this thread, here's a definition I read:
Q: How do you make a trombone sound like a French horn?
A: Stuff a sock in the bell and miss a lot of notes.

[Razzy]

Still, there's always a trade-off. French horn repertoire doesn't reach very far. Sax players are expected to be able to play classical, jazz, rock, and basically all styles of music, and also to double on the flute and clarinet. An orchestral french horn player is expected to play... orchestral french horn music. The end. Oh and there is also the question of technique. Oboe has a similar place in terms of repertoire. But many sax players are expected to play THAT too!! Oh and I think the woodwind with the most difficult technique is by far the bassoon. Still, it also probably has the greatest limit on style. So, everything has its balance.

But I will say this... it's only at the professional level that everything really evens out. It is here that you have to pick up other instruments, make them sound well, develop a technique on them, and approach them like a business. The learning curve is also different for everyone. I personally find violin and cello to be incredibly easy instruments to pick up and play moderately difficult music on. However they are very difficult to develop a general familiarity with, whereas a woodwind is easier to develop familiarity since most notes have only 1 or 2 fingerings. But yes, TONE on a stringed instrument is not a hard thing to come by. Slow bowings, holding the bow correctly, fingering the strings correctly, you can SEE it all. On a woodwind, you FEEL but do not see what you are doing in your mouth and chest, so for this reason it's more difficult to develop a tone, even with a lot of work.

So you see, there is always this tradeoff. And basically, what Mark O'Connor said is correct and just about the best way to approach learning any instrument. Slow, methodical, correct practice is the key, no matter how easy a sax might seem or how hard a french horn might seem at first.

[Tenorsaxer]

The bottom line is, that all of the instruments are hard to master. just like anything in life. I could learn trombone positions and maybe play a kick *** concert C scale, but no way could I play the range of the instrument or probably even play eighth notes.

If you hand a trombone player a tenor sax, they will probably be able to play a kick *** concert Bb scale in quarter notes. It would probably sound a bit wheezy too. No way could they play sixteenth notes either.

like I said they are all very tough to master, and some just to play in the first place. (ie violin, french horn)

[phathorn]

Personally, learning brass instruments was MUCH easier than the saxophone.

Just remember the top two birth control devices used by trombonists.

1: Looks

2: Personality

[Tenorsaxer]

did you learn the trombone or something with valves?

[phathorn]

Learned both. Thought horn was actually the hardest. IMHO horn is also the coolest of the brass instruments; if you like off beats and 9ths , that is=)

[GHawk]

I had to play horn and trombone in class brass as a music major. Neither were impossibly difficult for me then. However, when I was a band director, I found that the only students who had success on horn were the kids with a high musical aptitude - we gave a test that was somewhat reliable, but not always.

Getting a good saxophone section sound was a difficult task as well. The right fingers on the right buttons is an easy one....good sax tone production requires finesse because there are so many sounds of which the saxophone is capable.

[barelytone]

What's the difference between a saxophone and a lawnmower? . . .vibrato

[Owner_of_Artemis_R_Sax]

It all depends on the person, I think.
My brother is a trombone player. He's perfect for it- strong, flexible arms, good number memory for slide positions, good lung capacity, and a perverted mind.
I'm more of a sax player style- long, slender fingers, flexible lips, controlled air, and am generally more laid-back.
I've tried tooting a few notes on the trombone and my arms got tired really quickly and my sound sucked. My brother once blew into the neck of my sax and wondered why it wasn't making any noise. He also believes reeds to be disgusting, while I am never too pleased to see one of his kind dump their spit on the band room floor.
If you're suited for your instrument, you're going to like it, and thus it's going to be easier for you.