Advice for the sound guy

[hbl]

Had a gig last night - didn't get a sound check (we went on last) and the sound guy didn't know where to place the mic for the soprano sax. He started to place it under the bell - I said, "no, no , put it here" (about 7 inches up from the bell, about 1 foot away). Long story short, the mix in the monitors was poor and I couldn't really hear myself, or much of the rest of the band either. Was my advice correct? What is proper mic placement for live soprano? Thanks.

[OnyxSax]

I've always clipped a mic directly to the bell of the horn. I've never had a problem doing it that way. Then again, I'm so used to being drowned out in the monitor mix that I've gotten used to not hearing myself through the montors. Thanks to the ear protection I use, I can always hear the horn "inside my head", so to speak.

[sessionsax]

I use an AT clip on and carry a rack with a single rack space mixer -- my own fx -- and a powered monitor. That way, I know that I will be able to hear myself. Never trust the soundman, plan around him.

[ey up]

Hi, this is my first post on this forum... be kind. Guess what .. I am a Sound Guy.

The problem stems from your knowledge that the instrument does not only speak from the bell. In order to hear the complete and whole sound, the microphone must be placed at some distance from the instrument.
Well, that's fine in a studio where good seperation from other band members can be achieved; but you were not in a studio, you were at a gig.

In order to reduce spill from anything other than your instrument you must place the microphone where it will get lots of your instrument and very little of anything else. You guessed it, that means just in front of, in, or near the bell. And you're correct; it will not sound like a proper studio recording, but it's the only way to be able to amplify your signal without muddying the mix by also amplifying spill from everything else.
In this context the miced up sound is the best you are going to get, relax and be happy with it. Did someone say inverse square law?

This also partly explains the poor monitor mix; fading you (and all that spill) up just messed with the monitor mix and brought feedback ever closer. A good monitor mix is more important than almost anything else if you want a succesful gig; that, and keeping the levels on stage at a sensible volume. You were unlucky not to have the chance of even a rudimentary soundcheck, but thats the way it goes ...sometimes!

Hope this helps :D

[Merlin]

Had a gig last night - didn't get a sound check (we went on last) and the sound guy didn't know where to place the mic for the soprano sax. He started to place it under the bell - I said, "no, no , put it here" (about 7 inches up from the bell, about 1 foot away.

That's one of the compelling reasons for using a curved sop. It's easier to mic and much easier to hear yourself in the first place.

Failing that, SD systems makes a two mic soprano setup - one above the keys, one at the bell.

[jazzbluescat]

I bought a Sennheiser(the long black&silver one)on the recommendation of our soundman, when I was on the road doing top 40, on tenor.
From what I understand he had the volume turned very low on stage, I had to be right on the mic.[It was a rock rhythm section, with the drums sounding like cardboard boxes.]But, somehow he cranked that sound up for the speakers; some kind of dual volume control, I think.

[Bootman]

Give me the same level of fold back as the singer, set the eq flat and almost no reverb.
I will take care of the rest!!

[Rob Fish]

Give me the same level of fold back as the singer, set the eq flat and almost no reverb.
I will take care of the rest!!

My "gigging experience" involves playing my horns for myself, family and friends. I don't expect to ever step on a stage, attach a mic to my horn, and play for an audience. If I do, however, I'll have a real good idea of where the mic(s) should be placed, how to reduce the pops and clanging from the horn, and what to tell the sound guy - all because of what I've read here in the SOTW forums.

Information found elsewhere in the forums helped me decide to use a Morgan mouthpiece, Alexander reeds, Charlie A's gig dust, and key clamps on a soprano repaired by Steve Goodson. And I spend some of my practice time doing mouthpiece exercises.

I know this is off topic, but Bootman's comment reminded me of how much good information is available here in the forums, on the SOTW web site, and on the web sites of many of the frequent contributors to the forum. Reading threads that talk about gigging experiences gives me information that I wouldn't pick up anyplace else (I took private lessons from 6th grade through my second year in college, and a lot of this stuff was never mentioned).

Actually, I think the "lessons" I've learned in this gigging thread are well worth the cost of a private lesson. Someone want to tell me what the going price of a lesson is so I can get an idea how much to donate to Harri and the SOTW forum in exchange for the great gigging "lessons" you guys are providing?

Rob

[jazzbluescat]

Give me the same level of fold back as the singer

What exactly is "fold"?

[sessionsax]

I have found that sometimes bribes work pretty well :D

[ey up]

Give me the same level of fold back as the singer

What exactly is "fold"?

"Foldback", in other words the monitor mix. Your own sound is folded back to you as you perform. (It is an old BBC term).

[ey up]

Keeping sound levels down on stage is key to a good front of house sound.

Various performers are notorious for having everything too loud on stage; it gives them an adrenalin kick to turn their amps up to "11". Guitarists are the worst offenders. Drummers present a different problem.

Even in rock music a 100watt Marshall stack at "11" is too loud for most 500 seater gigs.
By this, I mean if the balance is dictated by bringing every other performer up in level to get a good balance with the guitarist, then the resulting mix will kick off harsh responses and standing waves in the venue, making a good front of house sound impossible.
Ohh, you thought it was the sound guys fault didn't you. Well it is more fundamental than that.
Every (and I do mean every) performer on stage should ask themselves why they are appearing tonight. Are they here to do the best show possible, or are they on an ego trip and damn the consequences.

The usual method of sounchecking is (in my opinion) at fault also.
Usually we start the soundcheck with the drum kit. Then variuosly add bass instruments and keyboards to the mix. Followed by other instruments and finally vocals. By doing this, we end up trying to beat the drums (no pun intended!), ending up with a mix that is too loud for the venue and pushing even large PA systems beyond their best operating range when trying to get decent vocal and solo levels. Also vast levels are now crowding around the stage and no one can hear themselves think, let alone share a vibe between band members. The resulting gig is a poor experience for both you and the audience.
This scenario happens so often I could cry..... and of course, everyone blames the sound guy. :(

It has been my long experience that trusting a knowledgeable sound guy pays dividends for everyone (even the audience...oops we had forgotten about them for a while) :shock:

Try your sounchecks this way.... it may help.
Get a general mix going in the old fashioned way as mentioned above.
Then.... :D pull all the faders on the front of house board to zero.
Play something including vocals and solos and let the front of house mixer set a good level for these. Then, add in the other performers; always having in mind that they should sit well with the vocal levels already set.
There will be problems of course, new ways of thinking may require a major change of mindset for some unwilling souls (this advice may run counter to their lifetimes experience). You may for example discover that the drums are still too loud.. some damping may help, although the real solution is a different drum setup that produces less volume whilst still projecting good tone.
That guitarist (remember him) will no longer be operating his rig at "11", he too, now needs a smaller amp (killer tone available at a lower level). He will howl at this suggestion but all is not lost.
Get good on stage monitoring gear. No I take that back... Get the best.
He can then be as loud as he wants (within reason) in his own monitoring.
This approach generally lowers the general "on stage" sound level, reducing spill into other microphones and allowing a generally more satisfying performing environment.
Suddenly the front of house mix snaps into focus (also partly due to the reduced spill levels into the microphones on stage), a great mix at a level suitable to the venue is now possible to the delight of everyone. :P

Less really is .............. more :D
And so ends my diatribe.......try it out. (After all, what have you got to loose?).
After an initial shakedown period you will really get a better audience reaction; and a better performing experience. :wink:

[JL]

Great stuff, ey up. By the way, not to dis drummers (since I consider the drummer the most important member of the band), but I've found that a drummer who plays too loud is quite often the real problem when it comes to volume. If the guitarist is too loud, that's pretty obvious and you can tell him/her to turn down. When the drummer plays too loud, everyone else has to turn up the volume and gets totally out of hand. Give me a drummer who understands and uses dynamics effectively, please!!

[Kosma]

ey up, Thank you for that post! If you don't mind, I would like to save your post and give it to...well...a lot of people! I think most soundmen would learn from it and appreciate it.

I was invited to play last night at a pretty lame ching ching mostly blues jam session. It was too loud out front and even worse on stage. I tried telling the soundman/guitarist I was playing with that it was painful and he just said no it's not? I guess sometimes it's just not even worth it to get my blood pressure up like that... Maybe earplugs are in order.

Like sessionsax, I just bought a powered monitor and a small mixer. No efx yet. The speaker is a JBL EON15 G2 (400 watts baby!) I too am sick of not being able to hear myself- if I get a monitor at all.

I see that if I crank my rig it just compounds the problem but some (most) of these rock heads are impossible to reason with. So in that case it shall be:
If you can't join 'em, beat 'em!

[ey up]

Thanks for the replies people. I hope my views are usefull. :D

Now ..... you have to become a diplomat, some of those other performers and even some of those sound guys may seem to be speaking another language; and everyone has a fragile ego.

If you can manage these negotiations succesfully, and with few tantrums and tears, there may well be a career for you attached to the "White House"!

The subject of Sound Reinforcement is enormous, and many people that end up involved in it start with little or no real knowledge.
They do their very best and learn by experience and hopefully from generous mentors, jealously guarding their skills and always trying for a better gig.
Sadly, unless they are very lucky and get advice from the true greats in this area their methods may well be without foundation in truth.
But, because they are often criticized for poor results, they often find blaming equipment, venues and performers for poor results.

It takes some strength of character to be a succesful sound guy.
Namely because you have to ask the band to trust you .... and be deserving of that trust. This can only come with experience.

A good sound guy should be regarded and valued as another band member. Its a team effort guys, everyone has to understand their own role in the performance .... and appreciate everyone elses.

Best of luck :lol:

[ey up]

Given the importance of "Front of House" sound and Sound reinforcement in general, it is amazing to me how little literature is aimed in this direction.

One book you might like to read is "the live sound manual",
Published in 2002 by Backbeat Books.
www.backbeatbooks.com
ISBN 0-87930-699-8

I have no connection with these people, I just thought that the book was a good effort and worth sharing.
It's well worth your time to read it be you a musician or sound guy (or both).

[max]

I've found that a drummer who plays too loud is quite often the real problem when it comes to volume.

AMEN!

Again, not to dis the drummers (my best friend is one), but that is so true, especially in the rock band I play with now (I hope they're not reading this! :wink: ).

My (least) favorite thing is when we get to a gig, they size the place up and say, this room is small enough that we don't need to mic the horns (so far, this is awesome!)... and then proceed to put three mics on the kit, plus overheads, all for a drummer who plays waaaay too loud anyway!! :evil:

[jd]

1 small powered mixer $200.00 ,1 used quadraverb $100.00,one shure 57,$80.00 ,hotspot 10 pound(200 watt) monitor with stand $150.00 hearing yourself at the perfect volume,eq level *with the desired effects on your sound)for every gig dialed in perfectly by yourself...... priceless.

[Bootman]

I prefer playing acoustic gigs without PA or a small vocal PA if it is necessary. These always require every band member to listen and balance amongst themselves. Loud Drummers and Guitarists who continue to play overly loud are actually being rude to the rest of the band members. Good musicians listen and play with the other band members, not play over the top of them.

Ey Up is correct in his assessments of live gigging situations. A good monitor mix and low stage volume will go a long way to making for a better performance. Sound guys are often blamed for sound problems when it is really up to the players on the stage to control their own stage volumes.

[jd]

i agree bootman.true!

[Larry G]

I played with a local band for a couple of years, the usual ear-cleaning feedbacks and bad mix run by the leader/guitar player. Great music ! Hugh talent! ... but the band was always complaining and the crowd was confused. I finally got them to accept a sound man and TRUST his mix for an equal $$ cut in the band. It was a great improvement and the crowd was always saying how we all had improved so much, and the band was quieter on stage so we (even the sax) could hear !! Hard step to take for most but huge reward with the right person on the knobs

[Jazzed]

I have run into the "louder is better" mindset numerous times. It is amazing how so called "musicians" will not accept simple logic and seem to take it as a personal attack when I bring up the idea of "subtractive mixing" - instead of turning one thing up, turn everything else down.

For my gigs as a leader I choose players that understand the idea that louder is not better. For my gigs as a sideman I use earplugs a lot- I need the money.

[JL]

I just got back from a gig tonight at a private party. Because we were playing in someone's backyard, the band (a blues band with two electric guitars) made a big effort to play at a reasonable volume and my sax didn't even need to be miked. The drummer played tastefully with just the right dynamics and we could all hear each other perfectly well. We got lots of compliments (including some more gigs) and guess what the major compliment was? "You guys sound great and I especially like the fact you didn't play too loud!!" So WHY do so many bands think they have to play so painfully loud, when the audience doesn't like it, the band members don't like it, and I guarantee you the bartender doesn't like it......What Gives?!

[ey up]

:D Great stuff JL.

I think we just might be on to something...

Spread the word :wink:

[sopsax]

I toured North America and Europe for over a decade with a 6-man group: saxes, clarinet, trumpet, trombone, tuba, drums. We didn't have our own electronic gear, so every night on this string of one-nighters it was house sound. What made this work (most of the time) was long, meticulous sound checks. We'd arrive at the venue hours early, giving us time to adjust mic and monitor levels for players both individually and in combination.

In halls with good acoustics, we could keep front-of-the-house amplification down to a dull roar -- but monitor (or foldback) levels were always essential. Even across a relatively short span of six guys, there'd be a noticeable time delay due to the speed of sound in air, so we relied on monitor sound to keep our ensemble rhythm playing tight.

One thing that helped us was to designate one of the musicians as our official pair of ears. During the sound check, he'd roam the hall, verifying that the mix sounded good at the front, back, sides, balcony, etc. He'd also note whether the hall's natural acoustics favored winds, brass, or percussion -- we'd adjust our playing accordingly. When his time before the mic came, somebody else would go be the ears.

Key to the success of this approach was winning the trust of the house sound engineer -- getting him or her to accept that we had done this before and had a pretty good idea of how to achieve our optimal mix. Basically, we'd set an overall mix level and then not mess with it electronically AT ALL for the duration of the show. The players would adjust the mix when needed by moving closer to or farther away from the mics -- for instance, when alternating between solo routines and backup parts.

The only times this didn't work was when an inexperienced or prideful engineer "rode the pots" -- continually changing mic levels in a vain attempt to follow or anticipate our musical routines. Disaster! Half the band would be inaudible while soloists struggled with feedback. Fortunately this only happened at a few US college venues, and all over Germany.

I played alto and soprano saxes on these gigs, using the same single-mic placement for both horns. To get my straight soprano on target, I'd just rear back a little -- not uncomfortable. Yes, my bell was blasting straight into the mic, and yes, subtle shadings of tone emanating from higher up the horn were probably lost. But what the hell -- no matter what we did, nobody could be heard over the drums anyway!

[JL]

"nobody could be heard over the drums anyway." LOL, yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about! But don't get me wrong, one of the things I like about the sax is that it is loud and powerful, and I love playing in a rollicking blues/R&B band.....it's just that there is a limit where the sound of an overamplified band becomes painful for almost everyone. I've never understood why the limit is so often exceeded.

[Jazzed]

I just got home from a gig I walked out on because the amplification was too loud. I was wearing earplugs too. I figured I'd rather save my ears than make the $$. I couldn't even tell if I was in tune. Damn amplifiers... and ignorant musicians. Bet I don't get any more calls from them.

[saxboy]

I have lots of ways to deal with being heard and use them in different situations. I always have these lame "sound mirror" things in the case. It clips on the bell and lets me reflect the sound from the bell at my head. Works good in medium loud settings but won't help with really loud gigs.

Being the Boss does help volume issues because you can fire the "instrument of choice" if it is a problem.

I did buy a tape and book set for my guitar player, years ago, named Loud and Soft by Bert and Ernie. That was the first time he heard me on the volume thing and didn't think I was just giving him a hard time. Did not help much but is pretty funny if you think about it.

Bottom line...

If you can not hear and it is all really loud = you will not be playing very good.
If you are sucking, then you are not going to have better gigs coming your way. It can be self defeating. You can't go anywhere from there.

So, steal from all the above great ideas. Try and make it better or work toward a change.

Hot Spot Monitors can be great but high volume needs more. If it was a game, I know I would win because I have 3 amps, 3 sets of good speakers and a pair of awsome monitors - but that is not the point.

I do carry a pair of monitors, small effects/mixer rack and 750 watts a side if I really like the gig.
If it is not worth it, move on. It's OK. Not every gig is for everyone and a Soprano Sax in a Metal band might not be the best idea you ever had.

I won't play with ear plugs because I play too hard and really feel it. If it is that loud I stick a napkin in my ears, stand around a lot and play very soft looking confused. Don't know if it is a very smart thing to do, but I get paid, don't blow myself out and do the dumb blond thing at the end of the night. "I don't know what was wrong but I could not hear anything so..."

SAXBOY
www.gregvail.com/sys-tmpl/ksbrbash2003

[tledjazz]

It's always a challenge working in heavily amplified settings, esp. when you have a soundman who doesn't know how to mic/eq a sax, or when you're sharing the stand with yo-yo's who's answer for everything is to turn their own volume up. We spend all this time picking the right ax, agonizing over reeds, blowing long tones till we're blue. A guy has one knob turned wrong and all that work is totally wiped out! And soundcats wonder why we get so pissed at them. If you do those kind of gigs a lot it pays to have your own rack with wireless mic(s), and effects on board. If not, as stated earlier, be able to tell the soundguy exactly what you want: type of mic, placement, level, monitor mix and eq settings.

[MS]

Musicians and soundmen sometimes forget that EQ's and volume knobs work both ways. The answers for balance are not always figuring out what to add but what to subtract to balance a mix.

On stage you play best when you can hear yourself clearly and enough of others to interact and balance. I have done both -played on stage and run front house mix. It amazes me that players expect to hear a clear strong sound from every instrument, and have room for their instrument and voice to be clear- all out of an monitor with a 15 (or 12) inch speaker and horn (which is usually umderpowered). The only way to get that kind of clarity and presence is really loud (needing plenty of amplifier head room and speaker system to handle that).

I have spent a fair amount of time locating instruments on stage to help provide clear sound to the player and locate the sound so that the rest of the band hears clearly but not an over balance of things they don't need to hear.

It may not look look as cool, but amplifiers need to be off the floor and as close to ear level as possible. A guitat amp lointed at the players ear will get the quickest reduction in volume (also works for bass players- except you loose some of the low end rumble-aw ahucks!). But then they will complain that they can't hear other players as well --then turn DOWN a little so you can her.

Two things with amplifiers. With am amp pointed at your knee cap, volume is going to be misjudged and highs and crunch is not going to be heard (players ear is off axis and hears mostly lows unless extremely loud). The other thing is the low E string on guitar is about 80hz, and that length of sound wave will probably take 9 to 12 feet distance to develop a full wave length. Highs are very directional, and can be heard best directly in fornt of the amp. BAlance of tone can be best heard 12 to 15 feet directly in front of the amp. The player has to decide whether he/she is playing for the audience or themselves, and learn to balance things accordingly. The only way to sort of bring this point home is a sound chek in a performance space and a very long cord or wireless.

Clarity in a mix is a matter of perception. In a large mix, each instrument is not going to sound like a mix of several individual acoustic instruments combined. The perception of tonal balance is knowing what frequencies to take out of the mix to get rid of rumble and roar frequencies and amintain balance and clarity.

If drummers are on a platform, then expect all kind of weid things coming through the front line vocal mikes - especially snare and cymbles. Snare drum and kick drum mikes are so close, there is usually a bleed through on both of those mikes, and best you cn do is get a workable generaliztion. If you can afford gates for all the drum mikes, it's a really good investment and helps immensly. Drummers, because of their location need a strong quality monitor PLACED WHERE THEY CAN HEAR IT!

A monitor pointed at the drum mikes is not going to help anyone. Encourage the drummer to consider the monitor as part of his/her drum setup- elevated near ear level is best.

I hardly notice any band player worried about being too loud. Most worry that they won't be heard and act accordingly. You can imagine what is going to happen when you have 5 to 7 musicians worried about not being heard -- probably not the best musical result.

Finally, if you have the band in a performance space, and one by one have the players go out front and set the EQ and balance of the the front PA system, you'll have a radical difference in how the front sounds.

A good sound man who can take the time to work with band menbers to make muscians on stage happy most of the time, and have a good functional mix out front is a good investment.

Good sound mix starts with attitude of players on stage and a willingness to give and take and directing individual egos toward a grouop effort.

[tledjazz]

I agree. Ideally everyone should should be working together to achieve the common goal. A good soundman can really make the process effortless. They're worth their weight in gold.