How do I get that old R&B sound?

[Grandpa Bob]

I would like to get a "grittier", darker sound like the old R&B sax players (like the sound Marty Grebb had on Buddy Guy's "Sufferin' Mind"). For years I have used a Claude Lakey jazz 7*3 mouthpiece because of its wide tip opening and its baffling. I use BARI fiberglass reeds for convenience. My tenor sax is a Keilworth SX90R. I have tried different mouthpieces and saxophones but the sound isn't dramatically different. I tried some cane reeds, too. I can growl but the sound isn't exactly what I want. I play in a band that plays blues, soul, and old R&B with a little rock'n'roll thrown in. I would appreciate any suggestions.

[Neil Sharpe]

Check out this thread:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=2716&highlight=julep

Books that might be of interest are:
Dennis Taylor: "Blues Saxophone- An In-Depth Look at the Styles of the Masters"- Hal Leonard Corporation (December 1, 2001)

Deke McGee: How To Play Rhythm n’ Blues Saxophone. (2004) www.jazzwise.com


SOTW's "Blues, R&B, Rock n' Roll Teaching Resource" also will be of interest.
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Rock_n_Roll/

[gary]

Dennis Taylor: "Blues Saxophone- An In-Depth Look at the Styles of the Masters"- Hal Leonard Corporation (December 1, 2001)
Taylor's book is an excellent resource. I like it a lot but I think you have to be ready for it (yo probably are).

Also check out Rock and Roll Saxophone by our own John Laughter as well as the SOTW (not forum) home page, look on the LH side for Rock and Blues sax. That opens up a lot of info.

[shotgun]

Neil Sharpe, thanks for the link to that old thread. Very interesting!

[soybean]

I would get rid of the Bari reeds and try some Fibracell.

[Bill Mecca]

Bob,

I've always found Bari brand reeds to be pretty bright and buzzy, so I guess the buzz isn't what is missing from your sound. It might help if you could post a clip (soundclick.com is a good choice) and maybe if we hear it those here could offer more solid advice.

[bfoster64]

I would get rid of the Bari reeds and try some Fibracell.

My thoughts exactly. I especially like the old-fashioned Fibracell mediums (as opposed to the new Fibracell "Premier" reeds).

[littlewailer]

http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.Page?MediaId=268

Frank Catalano on split tones/effects using the throat.

Really helped me. Especially lately.

[playitfunky]

I don't think the sound the player is getting on Sufferin Mind is very dark. To me it is full, grainy, edgy, and slightly bright. You will need an open mouthpiece, a large tip, a medium baffle and a reed that isn't too hard.

[Tim Price]

http://www.tothestage.com/MediaDetail.Page?MediaId=268

Frank Catalano on split tones/effects using the throat.

Really helped me. Especially lately.


FRANK IS THE MAN........Pefect. Enjoy him.

[Bub99]

I was going to suggest a large-bore horn, then noticed the OP is playing a Keilwerth. This should be a good choice to get a large tone with a lot of texture. I agree with playitfunky re mouthpiece choice. High baffle pieces can give a centered tone that may be the opposite direction of where you could be headed, a traditional fatter sound that is still centered but is more toward the lower midrange. With respect to the texture in the tone, you will need to put some air in the horn so you will need a piece that will not close up easily. This may be more about the facing curve than tip opening per se though a large opening is one way to get there. I'd recommend you start a conversation with one of (or more?) of the mouthpiece customizers on SOTW about what you are looking for.

[nachoman]

I've never been convinced that high baffle really helps with an older R&B tone. The likes of Lee Allen, King Curtis, Jay McNeely all used pretty conservative ebonites and, wow, did they rock...
Personal current fave R&B 'piece- Berg Larsen Grained Ebonite 105/2... enough baffle to give it osme grit, but a big, fat otne too.

[Bub99]

I've never been convinced that high baffle really helps with an older R&B tone.Also in that camp was Willis Jackson. The picture of him on the 197? album Bar Wars shows him holding a 10M with Link affixed. Of course, you never know about what's inside the Link but he had that big textured tone.

On the other hand, listen to Rusty Bryant for a good example of a high baffle R&B sound (Berg). Also nice and with a lot of texture but not the traditional sound the OP mentioned.

[playitfunky]

I've never been convinced that high baffle really helps with an older R&B tone. The likes of Lee Allen, King Curtis, Jay McNeely all used pretty conservative ebonites and, wow, did they rock...
Personal current fave R&B 'piece- Berg Larsen Grained Ebonite 105/2... enough baffle to give it osme grit, but a big, fat otne too.

I agree that a high baffle will be too edgy, too bright for what he is going for. I think a medium baffle though helps get the projection loud enough, and the tone edgy enough for a good r&b tone. If you go with a really big tip though and no baffle I think you need more technique to get that type of tone.

I think a little baffle yes, a lot of baffle no. Use a fairly large tip and you can get a good blues/r&b thing going. The thing is though I hear guys that sound however they want on many different mouthpieces so in a lot of ways it's the player not the piece.

[Dr G]

... and the Claude Lakey 7*3 should be pretty much in the correct ballpark.

[Martinman]

A lot of that sound is just blowing the **** out of the horn.

[Alexk]

A
lot of that sound is just blowing the **** out of the horn.

IMHO, that's pretty much it. You don't get the tone and the overtones and the "rip" that Curtis did by just puffing it, you blow. Big.

I've got five CD's of the King, in the cover photo's of most he definately is using a stainless steel Berg, on one it is a black mpc, (hr? ebonite?) and one is a fat whitish mpc.

[playitfunky]

A lot of that sound is just blowing the **** out of the horn.

After I got back from seeing Tower of Power I said to myself, man you gotta push more air if you want to wail like the big boys. My new thing is blowing the hell out of the horn and screaming altissimo. I'm good up to Eb(4) now but I won't be satisfied until I'm at least Bb(5).

[JL]

A lot of that sound is just blowing the **** out of the horn.

True. Also, there is more to it than the tone, although that's of major importance. There is a style of playing to get that old school sound. And I think you really have to listen to the players in that style you like and pick up on everything they are playing, not just growling or altissimo. Listen to how they phrase and navigate a 12-bar blues. The rhythm is also very important. Listen to some jump blues.