Production dates of the "Professional 2000"

[Captain Beeflat]

Although this question has often been posed, there seem to be no definitive dates of production.
It is generally assumed that this model was Grassi's swan song but was it made concurrently with other models or did it stand alone?
Perhaps a span of serial numbers could help, either now or in the future.
For the record therefore, my Pro 2000 tenor has the serial number 59392.
Was high F# introduced at a certain date or was it optional throughout the build period? Mine is not keyed to high F#.

[J.Max]

The "Model 2000", which morphed into the "Professional 2000" was available as early as 1990 (I have a receipt from a music store that proves this.) Since it was Grassi's last instrument, I think we can assume that it was produced until the factory closed. The "Prestige 2000" was produced at the same time, but I think it was released when they changed from the "Model 2000" to the "Professional 2000".

So what we really need to know is this:

1. When the name/model change was made.
2. If they were still producing student instruments when the 2000 models were produced. I suspect that they were, and also producing stencils for companies like Buffet. (I've seen a "Made in Italy" Evette.)

[Captain Beeflat]

J. Max
I hoped that you would spot this thread. How is the History of Grassi proceeding?
You say that the "Model 2000" morphed into the Professional 2000" yet I have a vague feeling that my Pro 2000 had an earlier serial number than "A Train's" Model 2000....where does that leave us?
Would it not be beneficial for Grassi owners to post their model with it's serial number?

[milandro]

I might have some more information (sooner or later) on the Grassi SN from someone who has some direct knowledge of this and was involved in the factory until it closed.

The problem is that the "new" company, sice it has changed management (apparently the old Signora Ida Maria is still alive but getting on a bit) isn't interested in getting to please the Grassi collectors throughout the world by releasing any information.

Apparently the building where Grassi was located is still in Quarna di sotto and still contains archives and some stock.

Bill Lewington, ex-importer of Grassi in the UK, might offer some information too and they still have some horns (sopranos only I am afraid) for sale!

In the meantime I can offer the link to some pictures of two grassi of mine currently featured on Pete Thomas's site
http://www.breakfastroom.co.uk/index.cgi?fid=03&topic_id=1201526875

[J.Max]

J. Max
I hoped that you would spot this thread. How is the History of Grassi proceeding?
You say that the "Model 2000" morphed into the Professional 2000" yet I have a vague feeling that my Pro 2000 had an earlier serial number than "A Train's" Model 2000....where does that leave us?
Would it not be beneficial for Grassi owners to post their model with it's serial number?


I now own A-Train's "Model 2000", actually. It's in the shop being repadded, and I'll get the serial number when it gets back.

I can tell you that my alto is a 59xxx and "Professional 2000" soprano is a 65xxx. The Model 2000 soprano I had was a 594xx. I've kept track of them in order to try and figure this puzzle out.

[Captain Beeflat]

J. Max.
My Professional 2000 tenor with the serial No. 593xx is earlier than your 594xx soprano.
Clearly therefore the Model 2000 did not morph into the Professional 2000 as we had assumed.
Perhaps there was an overlap period when the horns were being made concurrently.
The mystery deepens.

[J.Max]

J. Max.
My Professional 2000 tenor with the serial No. 593xx is earlier than your 594xx soprano.
Clearly therefore the Model 2000 did not morph into the Professional 2000 as we had assumed.
Perhaps there was an overlap period when the horns were being made concurrently.
The mystery deepens.

I think there were some odd things about the sopranos...there's another thread where the soprano is marked "Professional 2000", but it's clearly an earlier model.


I'm starting to think that the "Model 2000" might be a "US only" horn made by Grassi for export by the UMI group. I have no hard proof of this...yet.

[pc1234]

I have some random information that may or may not be helpful.

I purchased my Grassi Model 2000 soprano sax in 1989 at a music store in Albany, NY. It was marketed at the store as an "Armstrong Grassi." The engraving on the front of the bell says "Ida Maria Grassi - Made in Italy." The serial number on the back of the horn is 57403, and is printed just above the "MODEL 2000" engraving. Just below the "MODEL 2000" engraving, it says "Reg. Trademark," then "Italy: 17.433 C/70", then "U.S.A.: 358.195".

Grassi may have had an agreement with Armstrong to sell the horns in the U.S.

[J.Max]

I have some random information that may or may not be helpful.

I purchased my Grassi Model 2000 soprano sax in 1989 at a music store in Albany, NY. It was marketed at the store as an "Armstrong Grassi." The engraving on the front of the bell says "Ida Maria Grassi - Made in Italy." The serial number on the back of the horn is 57403, and is printed just above the "MODEL 2000" engraving. Just below the "MODEL 2000" engraving, it says "Reg. Trademark," then "Italy: 17.433 C/70", then "U.S.A.: 358.195".

Grassi may have had an agreement with Armstrong to sell the horns in the U.S.

There's no question about UMI (Armstrong) being the importer for Grassi - this is a fact and I have a catalog from the early 90s showing the "Model 2000" in their line. The question is where the "Professional 2000" fits into this. My current working theory is this:

The "Model 2000" was an export only horn designed to replace the professional-level horns that had been lost when The Music Group (Boosey and Hawkes) began importing the Keilwerth SX-90Rs outside of Europe. They turned out to be good horns, and Grassi marketed the same model in Europe as the "Professional 2000" - this would account for the serial number issue. (They also redesigned the soprano at some point. The soprano in the other thread is exactly like the "Model 2000" I had, except for the nickel keywork.)

You have to realize that in the early-90s there were a lot of HUGE changes going on in the retail music business:

1. Catalog (and later, internet) stores like WWBW essentially put the local Mom and Pop music stores out of the professional wind instrument business. The catalogs could sell professional horns at a hugely reduced cost because they made their profits in volume.

2. There began to be a new class of instruments above and beyond the typical "professional" lines: I like to call it the "Custom" lines after Yamaha's 875 series. These were lines of instruments intended to be better than what HAD been, up until that point, the pro-line horns. They were also more expensive. Yamaha had the 875 (with the 62 now relegated to "basic pro" status), Yani had the 880s (with the 800s as the new "basic pro" horns), and Selmer even eventually came out with the Reference line (with the SA-80 Serie II as the "basic pro" model...Selmer's situation was slightly different than the others, though, in that they marketed the new horns in a much different manner.). I think that the Grassi Prestige 2000 series was their answer to this trend. (BTW, other brass and woodwinds also followed this trend: Yamaha Custom clarinets, the Bach custom shop, Dave Monette trumpets, etc.)

3. Boutique mouthpieces became available. I'm not going to get into this in too much detail, but this is when we first started seeing Guardalas, Sugals, Barones, etc. Again, the other woodwinds and brass followed suit (Pyne clarinet pieces, several brass companies, Chadash barrels, many flute headjoint companies, etc.) CNC manufacturing was able to be done on a smaller scale, so it became viable for these companies to do this.

4. Companies had been importing horns for years, but those companies began getting their own import deals and going around a company like UMI, who was notoriously difficult to deal with after they formed. The US manufacturers were cut off from their previous suppliers, so they had to go to "alternative" companies to get new horns. It is possible that Grassi wanted into the US/World markets because of the now greater demand and so retooled (at great expense) to produce the "Model 2000" horns for export. When they proved to be a good horn, they were also marketed as the "Professional 2000" in Europe. This would not be unusual - Yamaha marketed the YAS-52 in the US and the same horn was called the YAS-32 in Europe and elsewhere. Later, they changed the worldwide name to "Professional 2000" when they brought out the Prestige 2000 instruments.

This is my current working hypothesis. I'm trying to find real definitive proof, which is difficult to come by.

[pc1234]

Thanks for all that info., J. Max - I hadn't realized that UMI and Armstrong were the same entity.
It's true these Grassis really are nice horns. It'd be great if we could get to the bottom of this story - and it is intriguing that there is so little information out there, considering this is not really ancient history we're talking about!

[J.Max]

Thanks for all that info., J. Max - I hadn't realized that UMI and Armstrong were the same entity.
It's true these Grassis really are nice horns. It'd be great if we could get to the bottom of this story - and it is intriguing that there is so little information out there, considering this is not really ancient history we're talking about!

UMI is one of the more interesting stories in music business history, actually. It was created as a way for a Swiss oil company to diversify their holdings, but it was made up of some of the most respected companies in music: Conn, King, Artley, Armstrong, Benge, and Scherl & Roth. They were all companies that just simply didn't keep up with the times - Daniel Henkin tried with Conn, but it was too little, too late. Here's a small article on them:

http://www.usitoday.com/article_printview.asp?Articleid=1581

What the article doesn't say is that UMI amassed a HUGE amount of debt, and their manufacturing facilities were so outdated that they just couldn't update them fast enough. (I've been to the Nogales factory, BTW. At the time, it was owned by Prestini.) They eventually had to sell to Steinway...it's amazing because within about 5 years of this article being written, Steinway ended up owning approximately 65% of the US band instrument business: Conn, King, Benge, Bach, Selmer USA, Armstrong, Artley, Leblanc, Vito, Bundy (which they immediately killed off), Emerson, Holton, Martin, Ludwg, Noblet, and distribution for Selmer Paris and Yanagisawa.

[jazy49]

Ciao a tutti (hi everyone) and, first of all, sorry for my rough english.

As a new member of this fantastic sax forum and a very beguinner in approaching tenor sax I'd like to get some opinion on the following items.

I've the chance to buy, for what is looking a very nice price, a Grassi Professional 2000 Bb Tenor sax, made in Italy, serial no.54140: may somebody help me to understand which production year should it be ?

Alternatively, may be I can get a B&S Blue Series Bb Tenor sax, serial no.4258, handcrafted in Germany in the 70's, more or less at the same price of the above mentioned Grassi Pro2000.

So, what's your suggestion to an aged (I'm 58) beguinner like me ? Should I buy the Grassi or the B&S one ? or a new, student, horn should be the right choice a the moment ? And, in this case, what brand/model ?

Many thanks in advance for each reply !

[milandro]

Ciao Jazy.

The Grassi Professional 2000 is for sure the latest of their production, there is no chart for the exact production date but there will be in future, I am working on receiving information about it.

In my opinion both saxophones are equally interesting and fit for the use of a professional and beginner alike.

[jazy49]

Thanks a lot Milandro !

Then I think I'll take the Grassi Pro 2000, even because I found it in a big specialized shop not so far from home and they can give me a 12 months warranty.
May be in the next future I could have the will to try another mouthpiece (I can't say if the horn has the original one): any suggestion on that ? e.g. I've seen on this forum that J.Max is using a James Houlik mouthpiece with his Grassi Pro 2000 tenor: is it an unappropriate choice for a beginner ?

Many thanks again for your support.

[milandro]

I wouldn't know which mouthpiece works for you on this or any other horn (it is very personal) and I would put it to you that no one can really say that for someone else....it is a process of trials and errors , good luck :).....it at first you don't succeed.......try and try again!

[J.Max]

Thanks a lot Milandro !

Then I think I'll take the Grassi Pro 2000, even because I found it in a big specialized shop not so far from home and they can give me a 12 months warranty.
May be in the next future I could have the will to try another mouthpiece (I can't say if the horn has the original one): any suggestion on that ? e.g. I've seen on this forum that J.Max is using a James Houlik mouthpiece with his Grassi Pro 2000 tenor: is it an unappropriate choice for a beginner ?

Many thanks again for your support.

Not sure about the Houlik piece for a beginner. The tip opening is quite large, it has a lot of resistance, and I'd generally have a beginner start on a smaller tipped piece.

[jazy49]

Not sure about the Houlik piece for a beginner. The tip opening is quite large, it has a lot of resistance, and I'd generally have a beginner start on a smaller tipped piece.

Grazie mille J.Max, I was strongly hoping to get your advice!
Then I'll go on with the piece I found with the Pro2000 unless my teacher will advise to try some different one. Unfortunately there are no brand nor model code on it, thus I can't ask your opinion on it ...

Best regards

[J.Max]

Grazie mille J.Max, I was strongly hoping to get your advice!
Then I'll go on with the piece I found with the Pro2000 unless my teacher will advise to try some different one. Unfortunately there are no brand nor model code on it, thus I can't ask your opinion on it ...

Best regards

You should try a lot of mouthpieces when you get a chance. Mouthpieces are such a personal thing that it's hard to make a recommendation unless you know what you want to sound like. Since you're a beginner, stick with the generic piece for a bit while you get to know the horn. Once you do, you should start looking at other mouthpieces.