MK6 falling out of favour?

[BarrySachs]

Is the Mark 6 becoming less popular or are other models becoming more popular? I've been sitting in saxophone sections for years. In the 1980s, almost every section man blew a six unless they were older cats that played BAs or RIs or Supers since the '30s.

I personally own just one mark 6 (a tenor) and I don't use it that often. Years ago I traded a mk alto for a BA. Now I play mostly Conn.

Here's a photo from a big band gig last month. Only one mk6 in the section.

Left to right: Mike Karn (King spr20-out of frame), Bruce Williams (Yanigasawa), Me (Conn 6m tranny), Alex Hoffman (token mk6 player), Jason Marshall (P. Mauriat-low Bb w/ some custom neck)

And Alex was a substitute for Walter Blanding, and Walter plays an old "Chu".

[Canadiain]

Either folks cant afford them, or else its a new generation taking over that was bought up on something else.

My guess is the former. I dont get the fuss myself, its the player, not the horn....isnt it?

[soybean]

Some people are afraid to take their VIs on gigs 'cause the horns are so valuable. Others have found modern saxes superior.

[Lairmon]

Barry

It doesn't seem to me that the MKVI is falling out of favour. What may make it appear so is the cost of them!!!!

In a big band I work with in Victoria B.C. Canada 4 out of 5 sax players were using the MKVIs. The more "mellow" sounding alto player was using one from about '56 with our "aggressive" sounding Sanbornesque guy playing one from the 70's. I'm using the VI's, a late 60's tenor and alto. In my neck of the woods, so to speak, the VI is still held in high regard.

I'm not completely up on what repertoire your band is doing, perhaps you're doing a fair bit of the older repertoire(?) but the versatility of the VI still seems the best when facing various styles and eras of music.
The vintage horns are very cool, but for me, and I think many others, the VI is still the best combo for flexibility (stylistically) and ergos.

[ChuBerry47]

Once again, Conns will prevail. I have seen a lot mroe of them being used, intead of being insulted, like I did a few years ago. I knew professionals who had never heard of them, and now everyone has. Of course there are other vintage brands, and models, but it seem s that Conn is becoming the most popular, and it makes sense too. :) Also, the prices on sixes are the price of cars, so why would a musician spend the money of four saxophones to buy a tenor? And mind you, I am not trying to bash Sixes, just their prices, and how they are highly overrated even though they are great saxes.

Ian

[BarrySachs]

Either folks cant afford them, or else its a new generation taking over that was bought up on something else.

My guess is the former. I dont get the fuss myself, its the player, not the horn....isnt it?

Some of that is true, however I'm talking about players that all own mk6s but choose to play something else. Many of my friends here in NYC use their mk6 only for commercial work. They will play their Conns, Kings, Martins or whatever on jazz gigs.

[ChuBerry47]

This just in. The Mark VI has just become the new "beater horn" of our Generation. ;)

[Canadiain]

Some of that is true, however I'm talking about players that all own mk6s but choose to play something else. Many of my friends here in NYC use their mk6 only for commercial work. They will play their Conns, Kings, Martins or whatever on jazz gigs.
Too valuable to risk at a gig where any neardowell might be hanging around then.

As far as the Conns go....werent there far more of those made than pretty much any other decent horn of the period....perhaps that explains why numbers are up...there are just more about period?

[ChuBerry47]

Possible, but I thought that there were more sixes, and people are not selling them, or eiher selling them at an outrageous price, because everyone likes them more than what they are. Just like Ferrari 250 GTO's. There are three hundred, bu you never see anyone selling them ,a dn when they are, they are extremely, outrageously priced, even though there are better vintage Ferraris that are much better, that are even fewer. Just an analogy I guess. :)

[BarrySachs]

Too valuable to risk at a gig where any neardowell might be hanging around then.

As far as the Conns go....werent there far more of those made than pretty much any other decent horn of the period....perhaps that explains why numbers are up...there are just more about period?

Yes, the Conns are about and can be had for less money than a mk6. As far as I'm concerned the 6m from around 1932-early '50s is as good as any Mk6 for any kind of work.

[BlueTrane2028]

I love Conns and Selmers equally, and while the VI is overpriced, I remember the day when you could just about get a soprano, alto, tenor AND bari set of Conns for the price of ONE VI tenor. I wish those days were still going on, because now I could have actually afforded said set.

[A Greene]

I can say I sold my 1970's VI for a 1936 Conn 6m - One blow on the Conn and that was it. E-bay the next day for the VI. Now I spent tons of cash on the VI trying to get it to really play. My tech described my particular VI as a "difficult" horn. So I may have had a dude but the Conn is really fun to play. I'll probably buy another VI or SBA someday but Not a NEW horn.

Still play a VI Tenor and Soprano

[hakukani]

I'm not sure that I could play an alto other than my VI. It doesn't matter to me if it's in favor or not. It's just most comfortable to make music with an old friend.

[jimmitch]

I just heard that 1959 Les Paul sunburst are falling out of favor.People just don't have the 200 grand to buy them.Sax players are lucky to be able to buy these great horns, for what are low prices compared to other instruments.

[DanPerezSax]

I think Bruce Williams has always been pretty emphatic that his Yani is the best horn out there...

[Al Stevens]

Some of that is true, however I'm talking about players that all own mk6s but choose to play something else. Many of my friends here in NYC use their mk6 only for commercial work. They will play their Conns, Kings, Martins or whatever on jazz gigs.
I use my VI tenor only in the studio and to practice. I take a Ref 54 LE tenor on gigs. And sometimes a Barone that I recently bought. It's not because they play better than the VI. They don't. It's because (1) the VI looks like crap, and (2) I don't know how I'd replace it if it got damaged or stolen.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I hope they fall out of favor as I would love a couple of more. :D

There are a lot of great horns it just depends on what you like and what you enjoy playing. Each of my horns brings something different to my playing. They all have a different vibe and I find myself having different ideas on each of them.

[Rackety Sax]

Maybe it's like Yogi Berra once said about Coney Island: nobody goes there any more because it's too crowded.

[CSharp]

I think there are goods and bads regardless of price, make, model, or year. From personal experience, I know you've got to kiss a lot of frogs to find the one that does it for you.

[JL]

They definitely haven't fallen out of favor. If they had, the prices would come down. If you're limiting this discussion to those who own a VI but tend to play something else, I think you're seeing a resurgence of some of the great vintage horns of the past that were largely discarded or ignored when the VI came out. Partly due to the internet and forums like this one, where players start hearing about the Conns, Bueschers, Martins, Kings as viable horns each with their own positive characteristics. So, rather than spending a fortune on a back-up VI, they'll pick up a Conn or Buescher for a reasonable price, then discover they like it as much, or better, than their VI.

I'm kind of describing my own experience with a "backup" Buescher tenor that became my main horn for a while. Now I tend to alternate between it and the VI. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, but sometimes I prefer one. Right now it's the VI.

As to modern horns, I still haven't played one that I prefer to my VI or my 2 Buescher Aristocrats, or a Conn 10M that a friend has let me play a few times, or a Super 20 I tried. None of the modern horns that I've tried (I sure haven't tried them all) can touch these.

[Honeyboy]

I hate to bring my VI out in public because it is too valuable.. It is in almost perfect condition and I would hate to see it get banged up by some drunk or even a careless band mate. It has the prettiest, classiest sound of all my horns. I usually use my The Martin on gigs because it is louder and better for the music I generally play-blues, R&B and Rock and Roll stuff. The Selmer is a great jazz horn. Ergonomically, it is slightly easier than the Martin. It is a total class horn. I think, due to the prices the way they are, there is a lot of sour grapes attitude, especially on this forum concerning the Mark VI. But they really aren't going out of favor.

[barker]

I use my VI tenor only in the studio and to practice. I take a Ref 54 LE tenor on gigs. And sometimes a Barone that I recently bought. It's not because they play better than the VI. They don't. It's because (1) the VI looks like crap, and (2) I don't know how I'd replace it if it got damaged or stolen.

I've ordered a Barone tenor for the exact same reasons, mainly (2). I've only recently become aware of the risk of leaving a MkVI unattended at gigs. My thinking is that, in a loud band with a PA system, who would ever tell the difference in sound between a VI and something stamped out in Taiwan, played by the same person and with the same mouthpiece? It seems there are many owners now taking a similar view, consequently the VI may become a rarer sight at less prestigious events rather than falling out of favour as such.

The other factors mentioned in this thread will also have an effect, I'm sure.

[BarrySachs]

I use my VI tenor only in the studio and to practice. I take a Ref 54 LE tenor on gigs. And sometimes a Barone that I recently bought. It's not because they play better than the VI. They don't. It's because (1) the VI looks like crap, and (2) I don't know how I'd replace it if it got damaged or stolen.

I have never had a problem with my horns on gigs. My two main tenors are a mk6 and a BA. If they were damaged or stolen, I would fix and or replace them. Both horns are insured for their current replacement value. With that said, if my mk6 were stolen and I collected the insurance money, I might by another BA and keep the difference.

[barker]

I have never had a problem with my horns on gigs. My two main tenors are a mk6 and a BA. If they were damaged or stolen, I would fix and or replace them. Both horns are insured for their current replacement value. With that said, if my mk6 were stolen and I collected the insurance money, I might by another BA and keep the difference.

This is how I regard the risk to my other saxes which I regard as tools of the trade. However, my MkVI tenor has a lot of sentimental value for various reasons so I don't feel that it's replaceable.

[JL]

I've only recently become aware of the risk of leaving a MkVI unattended at gigs.

My thinking is that, in a loud band with a PA system, who would ever tell the difference in sound between a VI and something stamped out in Taiwan, played by the same person and with the same mouthpiece?

I don't ever leave my horn unattended at a gig, so that's not much of an issue for me.

I agree that the audience probably wouldn't hear a difference (the key word is probably), but a large part of why I play my VI (or Buescher, or any other top-notch horn) is the feel and response which allows me to play better and enjoy it more.

I would hate for anything to happen to my VI, but I still don't treat it like the crown jewels. It's a horn meant to be played.

[RandyJ]

Andy,
Maybe it's just the current circles your in.
The swing band I play with once or twice a month (5 sax section, alto, tenors and bari) all play VI's, I'm the only one who now that either plays a VI or my Ref 36.

My last engagements with the Mingus Big Band...all VI's also.

What I'm seeing is allot of "youngsters" that haven't played them and don't know what a truly good tenor should sound like. And with the proliferation of the mediocre saxes from Taiwan and now China its only getting worse for young musicians to know what a good sax is.

[barker]

I would hate for anything to happen to my VI, but I still don't treat it like the crown jewels. It's a horn meant to be played.

I quite agree. I'll still use mine for recording work, and live when it would really make a difference (and can be left somewhere secure).

[BarrySachs]

Andy,
Maybe it's just the current circles your in.
The swing band I play with once or twice a month (5 sax section, alto, tenors and bari) all play VI's, I'm the only one who now that either plays a VI or my Ref 36.

My last engagements with the Mingus Big Band...all VI's also.

What I'm seeing is allot of "youngsters" that haven't played them and don't know what a truly good tenor should sound like. And with the proliferation of the mediocre saxes from Taiwan and now China its only getting worse for young musicians to know what a good sax is.

Well, I used to see "all mk6 sections, all the time. Now if I think of sax sections in NYC, it's a mix.

Lincoln Center Jazz orch: Sherman Irby (mk6 alto), Ted Nash (mk6 alto) Ted switched from a Cigar Cutter, Victor Goins (mk6 tenor), Walter Blanding (Conn New Wonder II tenor) Joe Temperley (Conn 12M Baritone).

David Berger's band: Jay Brandford, Matt Hong, Mark Hynes (mk 6s), Dan Block (Conn 10M) Karl Maragi (Selmer something or other baritone)

Vince Giordano's Nighthawks: Dan Block (Conn 6m), Dan Levinson (Selmer BA), Mark Lopeman (Mk6) switched from "Super"

In other words, I'm seeing more Conns, Supers, BAs, RIs and other classic horns than I did 10 years ago.

I think there was a time, not too long ago, that a "standard" alto set-up was :Mk6/Meyer and a "standard" tenor set up was: Mk6/Link STM (w/ Selmer lig).

Now you see a lot of variety in both horn and mpc.

Just an observation. 20 years ago I played mk6 alto and tenor. I don't even own a mk6 alto anymore, and I've had 2 good 5 didgit ones over the years.

[heath]

Have had two VI tenors over the years. Sold them both.

For me well set up Ref horns will get the job done just fine.

Conns are getting too expensive if you ask me. Practically all vintage instruments are going for what I consider obscene prices.

Hopefully the future players will concentrate on having a horn that is very well set up to play regardless of who made it. A poorly set up VI is no better than a cheap china horn.

[DanPerezSax]

I think there was a time, not too long ago, that a "standard" alto set-up was :Mk6/Meyer and a "standard" tenor set up was: Mk6/Link STM (w/ Selmer lig).
That's pretty much the setup I ultimately want. I'm happy with my Series III alto, though the intonation is not perfect, the The Martin Tenor has a great sound, but I sound better and feel more comfortable on the VI. When the money comes in, it'll happen... but not before I get the soprano and bari!

[Mike F]

Conns are getting too expensive if you ask me. Practically all vintage instruments are going for what I consider obscene prices.

This is one of the opinions that I was talking about which you continually voice. I have to say that this one is relatively harmless, but the fact is that saxophones are NOT EXPENSIVE INSTRUMENTS compared to others. I suggest that you don't consider taking up the bassoon for example. The Selmer Ref equivalent in the bassoon world could be said to be a Heckel, a new one of which would set you back about $60,000! :shock:


A poorly set up VI is no better than a cheap china horn.

Is that really what you think...... I know which I would rather have!

I know that MKVI's have got more expensive than a lot of other horns, but considering what they are, in many peoples opinions, (and the market place is just a reflection of that) they're still not expensive compared to other instruments.

[stefank]

Yes, a Mark VI is now truly a worthless instrument. If any one of you have a tenor that is taking up valuable storage space, I am willing to pay the postage to send it to me ...............:D

[milandro]

yes expensive saxophones can be damaged or stolen.....but even the most expensive saxophone is only a fraction of the value of an inexpesive new car, yet we go around with them and generally use a much more valuable object and run way higher risks with it (do you want to compare risks go ask your insurance advisor he will tell you that bringing aroung you valuable laptop is more risky that doing the same with your saxophone) like damaging it through no faults of our own for higher repair costs than a saxophone would ever have.

It is like having furniture and never enjoy the feel of it because you leave the plastic which they came in for transport for protection!

[Bootman]

There is very little point in having a sax that you dont take out on gigs. I take the new Flamingo out often, I have owend vi's in the past and wouldn't bother owning another one. The Flamingo seriously outplays the vi's I have played and owned, this is the best Selmer I have found yet even though I am having a little trouble with the modern Ergos. I still find that a Martin tenor has faster and slicker keywork than the Selmer keywork.

I still use Conn's all the time for gigs too. The choice of horn depends upon the gig you're doing, at least for me it does.

[sw3119]

I don't think the price is the primary issue. I think that the Mark VI had such an enormous reputation for so long that a lot of people felt if you didn't play a 6 you were missing the boat, so to speak. (part of this may have been insecurity on the players part. If you walk into a gig with a Mark VI no one can say "what are you playing that old piece of junk for?")

Now I think people realize that although the 6's are great pro horns, you don't need to have one to get a great sound (or to be taken seriously by other musicians). A good player is going to sound good on what ever horn they are playing. What's important is the the musician is comfortable on the horn and likes the sound and feel of it.

I used to play on King Zephyrs and still have an alto and a tenor (which both play and sound great) but I wanted to get a horn with more modern ergonomics.

I ended up getting Mark VII tenor and alto both for less than the price on one Mark VI.:D

[BayviewSax]

Can't we all just get along?

:D

I'm not even going to address horn vs. horn because it's a waste of time. But, regarding theft/damage on a gig, there is a simple solution. If my wife or I see anyone near my horns, we simply ask if they've ever had lead poisoning.

[heath]

The real reason I sold my VI most recently was because I could get twice what I paid for it. I could put the money towards my retirement. I saw the prices they were going for and figured the economy wasn't going to hold out forever.

And the other reason is I didn't want to be carrying the horn at 2 A.M. down the street 6 blocks by myself to the parking garages, where lets just say getting mugged is a matter of who can run faster.

IMO you're better off playing gigs with a horn you can replace and a VI isn't very easy to replace, my horns are insured, but I figure I can get another Ref horn and set it up and be fine. I like taking the stress off my back and not getting addicted to something I can't replace. Off the self modern horns fit that bill nicely and selmer has more options these days then they've ever had.

[RS]

My VI altos are great horns. My Yani 992 is a little better. There are alot of modern horns these days that are just as good or better than the VIs. And less expensive.

[MalcolmH]

I've been on the look out for a selmer tenor for quite a few months now.

There have been loads of MkVIs up for grabs but I've not seen one ref36 or ref 54

Funny that!!

[NatureColor]

a new heckel isn't $60,000... that's ridiculous. My ex-girlfriend jsut got a new heckel last year and it cost her about $15,000. I dont know what's going on in Finland, but if they charge $60,000 for a new heckel in FInland.... @_@...

[heath]

Hey NatureColor nothing is going on in Finland. Mike F picks every single one of my posts and tries to rip it apart. If it takes making something up to do that then Mike F will do it.

Love ya Mike.

[michaelbaird]

Can't we all just get along?

:D

I'm not even going to address horn vs. horn because it's a waste of time. But, regarding theft/damage on a gig, there is a simple solution. If my wife or I see anyone near my horns, we simply ask if they've ever had lead poisoning.

Or if they've ever had Herpes Simplex 10 to quote Eddie Murphy from Beverly Hills Cop

[milomo]

Well, I used to see "all mk6 sections, all the time. Now if I think of sax sections in NYC, it's a mix.

Lincoln Center Jazz orch: Sherman Irby (mk6 alto), Ted Nash (mk6 alto) Ted switched from a Cigar Cutter, Victor Goins (mk6 tenor), Walter Blanding (Conn New Wonder II tenor) Joe Temperley (Conn 12M Baritone).

David Berger's band: Jay Brandford, Matt Hong, Mark Hynes (mk 6s), Dan Block (Conn 10M) Karl Maragi (Selmer something or other baritone)

Vince Giordano's Nighthawks: Dan Block (Conn 6m), Dan Levinson (Selmer BA), Mark Lopeman (Mk6) switched from "Super"

Hey Farbs - Nice picture! To add to list of sections and their horns, the Harry Connick Jr. saxophone section horn breakdown as of January '07 (the last time it was five guys) was as follows -

Ned Goold - Mk6 alto and tenor
Jimmy Greene - Borgani alto and tenor
Jerry Weldon - Mk6 tenor
Me - #28,000'ish Balanced Action tenor (before I got the Super 20)
Dave Schumacher - Mk6 low Bflat Baritone

[BayviewSax]

There are alot of modern horns these days that are just as good or better than the VIs.

Definitely a matter of opinion. I had one of these and had the option of several others while I sought The Grail. I settled on a 1969 VI tenor and a 1967 VI bari, just because nothing else came close. (Name a modern horn available 2 years ago and I tried it)

[Al Stevens]

I have never had a problem with my horns on gigs. My two main tenors are a mk6 and a BA. If they were damaged or stolen, I would fix and or replace them. Both horns are insured for their current replacement value. With that said, if my mk6 were stolen and I collected the insurance money, I might by another BA and keep the difference.
Apparently you consider your VI to be replaceable. Mine is not. Of the ones I've played, this one is the best. Just another VI wouldn't do. I'm spoiled. It stays home.

[Al Stevens]

yes expensive saxophones can be damaged or stolen.....but even the most expensive saxophone is only a fraction of the value of an inexpesive new car, yet we go around with them and generally use a much more valuable object and run way higher risks with it (do you want to compare risks go ask your insurance advisor he will tell you that bringing aroung you valuable laptop is more risky that doing the same with your saxophone) like damaging it through no faults of our own for higher repair costs than a saxophone would ever have.

It is like having furniture and never enjoy the feel of it because you leave the plastic which they came in for transport for protection!
Cars and laptops and furniture are replaceable.

[Al Stevens]

There is very little point in having a sax that you dont take out on gigs. The way work has dried up around here, that's all my saxes, my trumpet, my flugelhorn, my trombone, and my tuxedo.

[Al Stevens]

Hey Farbs - Nice picture! To add to list of sections and their horns, the Harry Connick Jr. saxophone section horn breakdown as of January '07 (the last time it was five guys) was as follows -

Ned Goold - Mk6 alto and tenor
Jimmy Greene - Borgani alto and tenor
Jerry Weldon - Mk6 tenor
Me - #28,000'ish Balanced Action tenor (before I got the Super 20)
Dave Schumacher - Mk6 low Bflat Baritone
Is John Allred still with that band. Tell him Tude says "Hey, Fester."

[milomo]

Is John Allred still with that band. Tell him Tude says "Hey, Fester."
Hi Al - Allred is not with the band anymore...but then again, neither am I! If I run into him though, I'll tell him you said hey.

[BarrySachs]

I just spoke with Allred. He's doing some gigs around here with Terry Myers big band. Some Goodman tribute of somekind.

Hi Karnage.

[zxcvbnm]

a new heckel isn't $60,000... that's ridiculous. My ex-girlfriend jsut got a new heckel last year and it cost her about $15,000. I dont know what's going on in Finland, but if they charge $60,000 for a new heckel in FInland.... @_@...
A new heckel for $15,000???? Hook me up man!!!!
Actually I don't have the $15,000, but heckels are never that cheap. They sell used for about $40,000ish

[DXCamp]

There are, of course, those unfortunate original owners of the "fabled" Mark VI who cannot afford to buy a new instrument which matches the quality and performance of modernity. So sad. :(

[heath]

When I was in high school you had the choice of playing a new Series II or you could buy a VI used of course. Back then the VI was the holy grail. Kids that couldn't play worth a crap and practiced 30 minutes a day lusted after these horns. Even in college when all that stuff wasn't supposed to matter, the players were judged by what they had hanging around their necks before they ever blew a note.


Today we have the III and the Ref 54/36. There's so many more choices today to meet the needs of the next generation. Back in those days I played a VI because I didn't dig the super 80 I, II or VII.

[Al Stevens]

Well, I guess the consensus is: There is no consensus. If you ask the VI owners, the VI is not out of favor. If you ask the others, it could be. That shouldn't surprise anyone.

[DXCamp]

If I were in the market for a quality Saxophone then 20+ years ago it would probably have been a Selmer Paris Mark VI Alto Saxophone. When in the market, though, the year happened to be 1994 and after talking with Selmer Paris enthusiasts came to understand where the quality was and so bought new. 8-)

The particular model of Selmer Paris Saxophones doesn't seen to matter to most folks, including the "old timers." :D

[Mike F]

a new heckel isn't $60,000... that's ridiculous. My ex-girlfriend jsut got a new heckel last year and it cost her about $15,000. I dont know what's going on in Finland, but if they charge $60,000 for a new heckel in FInland.... @_@...

I Know this is off topic, except to make the point that MKVI's are really not expensive compared to other instruments, but if you know were I can get a new Heckel bassoon for $15,000, please, please, please let me know! I know a bassoon player here who bought one three years ago and paid 38,000 Euros. I expect that they will be around at least 40,000 Euros now and at the current exchange rates that's very nearly $60,000. They were over £20,000 in the UK 15 or so years ago, so $15,000 for a new one?! Are you sure it wasn't new in 1920? :D

Heath, my friend, the only thing I make up over here is the log fire!! ;)

[Mike F]

A new heckel for $15,000???? Hook me up man!!!!
Actually I don't have the $15,000, but heckels are never that cheap. They sell used for about $40,000ish

That's more like it! Actually I was exaggerating - 40,000 Euros is $58,126! :shock: (at the time of writing)

[heath]

The bottom line is it takes a good long time to save up $6000 if your supporting yourself and you don't have a high paying job.

If your living on a musicians salary you might be living hand to mouth.

I've been reading a book that has quite a bit about Cecil Taylor, he worked as dishwasher, cook, salesman, Christmas holidays at Macy's as much overtime as he could get, he had albums out at this time and was gigging. Average income from music less than $5000 a year for at least a decade when the book was written.

We need to get a reality trip.

Most of the best musicians are dirt poor. Sure some aren't as hardcore as Cecil, most aren't for that matter, but money is hard won for musicians by and large.

[SuperAction80]

What's a Mark VI?!?!

6-7 grand for a saxophone? Psht...like Heath said, there are more important things like food, heat, electricity, water, and the internet service provider that allows me to talk with all of you fine people.:D

Hey if anyone has any tips on how to be a rich musician, please PM me*.;)




*No I'm not playing Kenny G covers

[milandro]

I have been a photographer for 25 years. All the time I have been a photographer only a few of (them? ... us?) made lots of money, a few more had a decent life while most were scratching a living..... . I knew that the majority of my visual arts artists friends were following the same pattern, definetly all the actors I ever knew (In the Late '70 I was the photographer of a street theater group) were living with money problems. So the one of the poor musician is hardly and unusual condition. I got by teaching portrait and studio photography next to my work as free-lance photographer.

Nevertheless I had good cameras, lenses, strobes and most of my money went into paying the rent of a rather large and expensive studio (which I was lending for free to my less forunate friends.. trying to off-set my karma towards more positive things :).... my karma turned out to be heavier to shift that what I thought:!: ).

I could have been a little richer if I had lesser cameras and so forth . I could have still made the same pictures and the same money I made back then .


If you are a professional player, you don't NEED a Mark VI, you could have one, but the money you need to buy one (here as little as 3000 euro for a 6 digits Tenor in good state, even less for a Alto ) would hardly be making you a rich man if saved or a poor man if spent.

If you have it it is good, if you don't have it you could buy a great player (Conn , Buescher, Martin) for as little as 1000 euro, if you are a bit lucky.

Less if you buy a less popular french brand.

[Pete Thomas]

I must admit that my first MKVI wasmore of a status symbol to me than the best choice of equipment, but then I didn't know any better. Like many people, I thought I would be taken more seriously at music college if a hard a MKVI, but once I got a bit of playing confidence I soon realised that for what I could sell it for I would be able to buy a decent alto AND a good flute. As a doubler, a whole new world of earning money as a professional opened up to me all of a sudden.

Getting rid of my MKVI tenor was a different issue, as I got into more demanding recording work I found the intonation on was just not right for me at the extreme ends. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are all bad: apart from that it was a lovely horn with a bright but dark sound, and I've played quite a few since then that are really quite good.

[milandro]

I have a co-player who plays a Mark VI now (with a refaced Otto link), he loves and cherishes it, it is his baby. He paid 3500 euros and the horn is in a stunning original condition with 99% lacquer and original. He found a closet horn, quite literally. However he bought this only because of a sense of inadequacy.
He played (with a very good sound, but that is his sound and it is quite good, great subtones...) an old Weltklang Solist before (witha Cheap Amati Classic mouthpiece). To me he doesn't play any better now than he did then.... but he probably feels better about his playing (and so do I after I bought my Super 20 and When I played my first professional horn, the Mark VII N . I have to add that I am not worthy of these horns but I am working on it.....)

[Al Stevens]

I just spoke with Allred. He's doing some gigs around here with Terry Myers big band. Some Goodman tribute of somekind.

Terry and Dave Wolpe have a Goodman tribute band. They operate out of Orlando. They hit the road a lot, so they probably got up thataway recently.

[Al Stevens]

6-7 grand for a saxophone? Psht...like Heath said, there are more important things like food, heat, electricity, water, and the internet service provider that allows me to talk with all of you fine people.:D
Amen to that. When I bought my VI, it was a lot cheaper than a new Selmer. That's why it's irreplaceable. I couldn't justify buying it now. Not at those prices.

Hey if anyone has any tips on how to be a rich musician, please PM me*.;)Nothing to it. Win the lottery. Then keep playing jazz until the money's all spent.

[BarrySachs]

Terry and Dave Wolpe have a Goodman tribute band. They operate out of Orlando. They hit the road a lot, so they probably got up thataway recently.

Yeah, that's the band. John Allred is contracting some guys out of NYC. I wish I could do it, but I'm already working. Bill Allred is coming up from Fla w/ Terry.

[Al Stevens]

Yeah, that's the band. John Allred is contracting some guys out of NYC. I wish I could do it, but I'm already working. Bill Allred is coming up from Fla w/ Terry.
I worked with Terry and Bill a few months back. Dixieland band on a riverboat. I was in Bill's 8-piece swing band for 5 years in the 90s. John and Terry were in it, too. That's when John lived down here. We traveled the globe with that band. It's still active. Hardest swinging small band I've ever played in.

[Al Stevens]

Oh, yeah. Terry plays a Mk6 tenor circa 1954. Not much lacquer left. Sweetest tenor you'd ever want to play. Ask Terry if it's out of favor. :)

[Swampcabbage]

Price, supply, and demand. I know many daily players who won't take their sixes on a gig (mostly bars and the like). They love them and cherish them but don't want to lose them die to some besotted fools out there.

I have a friend who will take his SBA, Super 20, or Chu out on a gig for this very reason.

Personally, I favor my VI over my Conns and Martins. No complaints. Other people just like other things for different reasons. Cost, availability, new, vintage or used, potential for endorsements. That's just a few that are seperate from the given sound an feel/response concepts.

[BarrySachs]

Oh, yeah. Terry plays a Mk6 tenor circa 1954. Not much lacquer left. Sweetest tenor you'd ever want to play. Ask Terry if it's out of favor. :)

My mk6 tenor is from the same vintage. #56,316. Frank Wess also has a #56k, but his has got a high F-sharp. I think Frank bought his new.

Anyway, I was half-joking when I suggeted the mk6 is falling out of fashion. Everyone I know who owns a mk6, still loves their horns. I'm only saying that many of us are "re-discovering" Conns, Kings, Martins, SMLs and pre-mk6 Selmers. After 30 years of mk6 rule, it is somehow refreshing to get a different flavour from older models. Also, we must remember that the 1970s/ early 80s were dark days for new saxophones. The mk7 never got the same following as the 6, and Yanigisawa didn't catch on until later. Even now, the Yani tenors are not nearly as popular as the altos and sopranos.

[BarrySachs]

I worked with Terry and Bill a few months back. Dixieland band on a riverboat. I was in Bill's 8-piece swing band for 5 years in the 90s. John and Terry were in it, too. That's when John lived down here. We traveled the globe with that band. It's still active. Hardest swinging small band I've ever played in.

I saw Bill and Terry in Clearwater Fla. a few months ago at a trad fest. I was there with Banu Gibson's band. Terry is a great hang. I think we smoked a bit too much, as our wiver weren't around.8-)

[Al Stevens]

I saw Bill and Terry in Clearwater Fla. a few months ago at a trad fest. I was there with Banu Gibson's band. Terry is a great hang. I think we smoked a bit too much, as our wiver weren't around.8-)
Small world. I worked with Banu at a jazz festival in Virginia in the 1970s. I had forgotten about it until I saw my name on a record.

I've smoked with Terry. 8-)

[ClickRec]

Some people are afraid to take their VIs on gigs 'cause the horns are so valuable.

That's it right there. More and more of the guys I work with are leaving their Selmers home unless it's a really important gig. I decided to retire my SBA from live gigs the night an old lady tried to use its neck as a handrail.

[heath]

I'd agree. Save the nice horns for recording. Gig with the cheap horns. No one will now the difference in a noisy club.

[NatureColor]

actually, I jsut want to correct myself.. I was very confused by what mike F said.. NEW heckel... I was talking about the newest one by Fox, that's somewhere around $14,500, But I know for sure heckels don't cost 60,000. I know you can get one for 35,000. But aywyas that's not important. I jsut want to correc my post!

[heath]

How many jazz bassoonists are in need of a Heckel.

Expensive instruments go against the history of jazz that has it's roots in poverty.

[Mike F]

actually, I jsut want to correct myself.. I was very confused by what mike F said.. NEW heckel... I was talking about the newest one by Fox, that's somewhere around $14,500, But I know for sure heckels don't cost 60,000. I know you can get one for 35,000. But aywyas that's not important. I jsut want to correc my post!

There is something called a Heckel 'Crest'. I found this on the Midwest Musical Imports site.

'The Heckel CREST represents an economical alternative to the custom Heckel model 41i bassoon.'

It's an off the shelf copy of the real thing. It uses artificial rubber as the lining in the tenor and small half of the bottom joint instead of real wood. It costs $28350!
The real thing will set you back nearer $60,000, and you'd have to wait several years to receive it.

$6000 to $10,000 is not unreasonable for a legendary horn, many examples of which still blow away the modern competition. (IMHO)

I agree with Heath on this :shock::shock:! I gig the Ref 54 and save the MKV1 for recording, and practicing at home.

[hornstar]

My best-playing horn is like my best girl; unless it's a really sketchy gig, others are just backups or for variety. ;)

BTW Mike F, I think I read an earlier post where you were asking for others' altissimo fingering for Eb4. I use the following, which I didn't see mentioned:

(oct) 1 2 - 1 2 -

Nails it for me everytime, and I do lots of altissimo

[saxophrenic]

JEEZ

How did this thread get hijacked by bassoonists?
:?:?

[hakukani]

JEEZ

How did this thread get hijacked by bassoonists?
:?:?

Bassoonists don't mind being Heckeled.;)

[Mike F]

BTW Mike F, I think I read an earlier post where you were asking for others' altissimo fingering for Eb4. I use the following, which I didn't see mentioned:

(oct) 1 2 - 1 2 -

Nails it for me everytime, and I do lots of altissimo

Thanks, I'll try it. I usually use the fingering for high F sharp (the only time I use that key), but I have a MKVI without that key so it could be useful.

[Mike F]

JEEZ

How did this thread get hijacked by bassoonists?
:?:?

I could have used many other instruments to make the point. Flutes, for example, can be far more expensive than saxophones.
And the point was (in case anybody missed it) that saxes are relatively inexpensive instruments, even at MKVI prices.

[Al Stevens]

...saxes are relatively inexpensive instruments, even at MKVI prices.Right. Try getting a decent piano for anywhere near what a vi costs.

But even the most treasured trumpets are much less than that. You can get a nice Bach Strad for under $1000.

[queperknuckle]

Someone commented on how long it took people to realize that the mark 6 was better than the mark 7. How long will it take people to realize that there are other horns out there that are just as good, or even better than the six for a fraction of the prices? My experience with Pierret's and an old Conn that my friend has (a gold plated conn that is just an unbelievable player. a six would have it's hands ful trying to out play it, i'm sure.) have made me realize this.

[Al Stevens]

How long will it take people to realize that there are other horns out there that are just as good, or even better than the six for a fraction of the prices?How long? It has to start when someone actually makes one. Then it will take some time after that.

[BarrySachs]

I had a gig last night with my big band. No one in the saxophone section was playing their mk6. This was not a request, it just happened that way.

the section:
Chuck Wilson: alto-gold plated "Cigar Cutter"
Sherman Irby: alto- R.S. Berkley "virtuosso model"
Ted Nash: tenor-Selmer "Jimmy Dorsey" model
Marc Phaneuf: tenor-Selmer "Super"
Jason Marshall: baritone-P. Mauriat (low Bb)

I think everyone in the section has a mark6 or two in their collection. Irby's regular alto is a 6. Phaneuf has 2 mk6 altos, 1 sop, 1 bari and 1 mk6 tenor.
Wilson has Tommy Newsome's mk6 tenor and Ted Nash has a mk6 alto. I think Jason's low A horn is a mk6.

Actualy, Wilson brought his mk6 soprano, but he didn't take it out of the case.

I stood out front and waved my arms, but I did take a few solos on my Selmer BA alto.

I'll post some photos later.

[Budget Explosion]

wow! I didn't think Pros were really playing the taiwanese horns...I thought they were just posing with them in pictures (a la the P. Mauriat ads). I think this is more eye-opening than the fact that the rest of you were playing old Selmers.

[BarrySachs]

I think this is more eye-opening than the fact that the rest of you were playing old Selmers.

I play my Conn alto about 80% of the time. Chuck Wilson has a Conn alto that he uses on his Broadway show and keeps at the theatre. Ted Nash was Subbing for Dan Block who plays a Conn 10m tenor. Phaneuf plays Selmer only.

[AMASAX]

didn't know Ted Nash was still going...friend of mine has an album of him on tenor and flute - top notch stuff.

Any idea if he has CDs available anywhere ?

[ShedShark]

Emusic

http://www.emusic.com/artist/Ted-Nash-MP3-Download/11572844.html

[tenor2toes1]

Modern horn =Well a new spanking work of art with less fuss & hassle & all the up to date
mod con's,more change to buy other gear,mp's etc.MK6 MONEY GOING CRAZY.

[harmonizerNJ]

Here is my Mark VI problem: Yesterday, I had the pleasure of meeting Matt (abadcliche). He looked at my Mark VI, and despite its leaks (which I am now in the queue to have him work on) he told me it is a pretty good VI.

The bad news is that means I have nothing on which to blame my sax-playing imperfections, except for my own weaknesses, and for spending too much time on SOTW and not enough time practicing.

[BarrySachs]

didn't know Ted Nash was still going..

This is the nephew of the famous Ted Nash. Son of trombonist Dick Nash. This Ted Nash is still going quite strong. He also plays a mean flute and is a respected composer. He's not quite 50 yet but has already worked with Louis Bellson, Mel Lewis, Benny Goodman and now Wynton Marsalis. Check him out!

[Shane Goodway]

why does selmer just make an exact copy of the mark 6 today and sell a certain amount at the right price.

I would love to have one and i would buy one tomorrow i wonder what they would charge for a new M6 alto

[Shane Goodway]

Sounds like my kitchen.

I dont use my 200 pound very sharp filet knife for chopping boanes

[heath]

why does selmer just make an exact copy of the mark 6 today and sell a certain amount at the right price.

I would love to have one and i would buy one tomorrow i wonder what they would charge for a new M6 alto


This is often what I've wondered in regards to the SBA and VI myself.

If you take a look at the guitar industry like Fender and Gibson they are putting a lot of money in their pocket by reissuing there vintage models. The buyers of these guitars have held the company to the highest standards and won't settle for anything less than "exact" copies down to every square inch flaws and all.

Of course a saxophone has thousands of individual parts, tooling up to produce these horns isn't cheap. The hand craftsmanship involved in the SBA and less so the VI is going to cost some real money.

[Connical]

Right. Try getting a decent piano for anywhere near what a vi costs.

But even the most treasured trumpets are much less than that. You can get a nice Bach Strad for under $1000.

What about Monette trumpets ? They go for as much as A VI tenor or more, and you have to wait a year or so to get one. For vintage trumpets , there is the Olds Super recording , it rivals the price of a VI alto. One sold recently for over $5,000. ! Although average prices are still around $3000.00 .

I would hardly call a Bach Strad a most treasured trumpet, unless you talk about one of the early, pre-Selmer buyout Strads. Like this nice New York Strad that sold recently on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/1932-Bach-Stradivarius-New-York-Finish-4-serial-1887_W0QQitemZ250238558471QQihZ015QQcategoryZ16214 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
But that horn is more of a collectible horn, with it's value being driven by it's rarity more than it's playability. While you can buy a used modern 37 ML Strad for under a $1000. , these are hardly the best horns available today. Companies like Kanstul, Eclispe, New York Trumpet Company, Getzen, Schilke, Monette, to name just a few, all produce better horns than any modern Bach Strad. That's why you can buy a Bach Strad for under a grand.

[LANDRUSAX]

I play in NYC and I've gotta say that the VI still seems like the standard. Conns are the second most common, but I can't think of a big band gig where there weren't at least a couple of VIs. Usually it seems like guys will get another horn and have a nice little honeymoon, but they usually move back to the Selmer.

[SaxoPiper89]

For me, its the cost. I love their sound. I LOVE the way they play.... I would sell my mustang and buy a cheap camry, if my parents would let me, to get one.
I also think that people just hear about the other horns more. Advertisement plays a huge part in everything. they were much more out there back in the day than they are now.

[JL]

For me, its the cost. I love their sound. I LOVE the way they play.... I would sell my mustang and buy a cheap camry, if my parents would let me, to get one.

Your parents would rather you drive a Mustang than a Camry? I wonder why? I've been driving a Camry for several years now, and I bought it used. It's never failed to get me to the gig. And so I can afford the horn(s) I want/need. Priorities are everything. I'll take a top-line sax over an expensive gas-guzzler every time.

[SaxoPiper89]

Yea, I know. I don't understand it either. However, I'm not going to fight them about it because they are paying my tuition.

[BarrySachs]

, but I can't think of a big band gig where there weren't at least a couple of VIs.

I just had one last week. No mk6s.

the section:
Chuck Wilson: alto-gold plated "Cigar Cutter"
Sherman Irby: alto- R.S. Berkley "virtuosso model"
Ted Nash: tenor-Selmer "Jimmy Dorsey" model
Marc Phaneuf: tenor-Selmer "Super"
Jason Marshall: baritone-P. Mauriat (low Bb)

[rogcwilliams]

I was olooking at buying a MKVI a while ago but the price was just daft so i went for a MKVII partly due to price but i also like the way it played and sounded.

Its a fantastic horn if you want to hear it i have tracks on the link below.

http://www.myspace.com/rogercwilliams

I think the MkV! will allways often be the horn players want to get there hands on just cos of the history but there are cheaper options in my opinion

:)