Will my current set up work with a Borgani? I am unable to try one at the moment.

[Lovano1239]

At the moment, I have been playing a Cannonball "Raven" Big Bell Series tenor saxophone for about four years. Just recently I have also purchased a Jody Jazz HR* #8 andhave been using Alexander D.C. Superial #3 reeds. So I guess my question is if the HR* and D.C. reeds would sound great on a Borgani sax? I am not able to go and try one at the moment, so I am open to comment.

NOTE: I have been trying to go for a Joe Lovano remenisent tone.

[hgiles]

Get a big NY Link and have fun. BTW, that is a really good sound you're going for and sounds really great in small un-amplified venues. Works well with singers and such too.

[Dr G]

I don't understand why you are concerned whether it would work on a Borgani.

Do you get the desired sound on your current horn? If you are not already close, the change in horns will probably not make a difference.

[Lovano1239]

I don't understand why you are concerned whether it would work on a Borgani.

Do you get the desired sound on your current horn? If you are not already close, the change in horns will probably not make a difference.

Well, I have just recently started to evaluate my sound and have come to the conclusion that it doesn't represent what I really feel when playing. At the moment, my sound is too finide, I want a freer tone. I love Joe's approch to improvising and his sound is so big, free, and lush, yet able to cut through when he needs to. In short, I think that a Borgani might be the closest thing to it. Not just because it is the same horn as his, but because I discovered that his sound is much like the sound a vintage horn makes, specifically a Selmer Super Balanced Action, just a little darker (or brighter the way you look at it).

[Dr G]

I suspect Joe's Francois Louis wood mouthpiece (large tip opening, cavernous chamber) might have something to do with it - but that won't be the end of the story. Joe's sound hs evolved over his lifetime. To think that you'll just jump on it with a Borg' and a JJ is a little simplistic.

FWIW, I play a Borgani Jubilee and would suggest a mouthpiece more like a Lamberson J8 for "that" sound. Of course, when I was using a J8, I sounded nothing like Lovano - or any other Joe. ;)

[Lovano1239]

I suspect Joe's Francois Louis wood mouthpiece (large tip opening, cavernous chamber) might have something to do with it - but that won't be the end of the story. Joe's sound hs evolved over his lifetime. To think that you'll just jump on it with a Borg' and a JJ is a little simplistic.

FWIW, I play a Borgani Jubilee and would suggest a mouthpiece more like a Lamberson J8 for "that" sound. Of course, when I was using a J8, I sounded nothing like Lovano - or any other Joe. ;)

Yeah, I know also about his expensive custom Francois Louis mouthpiece.

"I play a Francois Louis wooden mouthpiece which uses their ligature (which holds the reed). The mouthpiece itself is made from Granidillo wood, which is a hard African wood. I've been use these on my tenors since 1985 and on soprano starting back in 1982. Handmade, these mouthpieces are simliar to the Otto Link 10 Star mouthpiece which many musicians have used" (Joe Lovano http://www.joelovano.com/resources.php#gear)

I'm not angry with you or insulting your intelligence or anything Dr. G. If it feels like I am, then I apologize ahead of time. But I know the concept of everyone playing different and sounding different on the same horns and setups. It is something I have taken into consideration all of the factors and I would NEVER buy a horn simply because a professional player endorses it, even the great Joe Lovano. I have chosen to take look at Borgani because I like the concept of the sound and what it did for Joe Lovano.

Just incase nobody knows, when Orfeo Borgani and Joe Lovano met at one of Joe's concerts, Orfeo asked if Joe if he could play on the Borgani tenor Orfeo had and Lovano gratefully obliged. If anybody ever heard that concert, they would all agree that there was something different about Lovano's sound, it was original, special. Also as the years have gone by, Joe's sound has gotten better and better, each concert never sounding the same.

So yes, I know that I will never be able to sound exactly like Joe Lovano. Quite frankly, I believe nobody will ever be able to emulate Joe's sound. But I think I can improve my sound and create a new "palatte of colors," open up new doors and approaches to music. I thank you for mentioning the fact he has had years of practice and has an exceptional mouthpiece. I don't want to sound exactly like Joe Lovano, but I want to get a dark, round sound like he does and adapt it to make the sound my own.

[Dr G]

Thanks.

In short, you'll find more variation in your tonal pallette by swapping mouthpieces rather than hoping for your JJ to make it on the Borg'. Not to say that you need a wood F.L. but you should consider learning about its design and find mouthpieces that emulate that concept.

[Lovano1239]

Thanks.

In short, you'll find more variation in your tonal pallette by swapping mouthpieces rather than hoping for your JJ to make it on the Borg'. Not to say that you need a wood F.L. but you should consider learning about its design and find mouthpieces that emulate that concept.

Good advice. Since next summer I'm going to Europe to meet with Orfeo Borgani, I might also try and take a detour to Francois Louis' workshop. I know his mouthpieces are VERY open and free blowing. But I also know that it's $800 for a wooden Francois Louis mouthpiece and at the present time he is not making any at all, but who knows? Maybe by then he might start up on mouthpieces again or at least let me speak on that topic with him.

[shmuelyosef]

Since you've seen Joe, you know that he is a big guy, and takes HUGE breaths of air. At master classes, his mantra is "always keep your lungs full of air". I got to meet him last year at a special Stanford event in a private home...his sound comes from his approach, lots of air...

[crazydaisydoo]

I know Dr G has one of these horns, and loves it, but I spent a disappointing day last year trying out 7 or 8 of these at the UK dealer (not a nice experience by the way) I played a Yani T901 at the time, and could get a nice fat bottom end with a 7* Link and a 3 reed. I really struggled on all the Borgs to get a good tone below D. He said it was my playing, I asked to try a Selmer Reference 54 he had hanging up, guess what, every note popped out, just like my Yani. I went there ready to buy, and walked away with nothing (the reference was out of my price range) There is a strong possibility that the horns were not set up correctly, or they just did not suit me.

Now I have a Reference, I can hear tonal difference between my Yani 901, but they are at two different ends of the price spectrum. I own a Cannonball Stone Series sop, and have spent hours playing the allbright tenor, I would say if you are expecting a significant change in tone you might be disappointed. You may need to put a lot more air into the horn too.

Having said that, nothing wrong with wanting the same instrument that your hero plays. As the proud ex-owner of a Ibanez George Benson guitar, I can understand how inspiring that can be. I still miss it (ahh guitars I have had........)

[rogerb40uk]

I know Dr G has one of these horns, and loves it, but I spent a disappointing day last year trying out 7 or 8 of these at the UK dealer (not a nice experience by the way) I played a Yani T901 at the time, and could get a nice fat bottom end with a 7* Link and a 3 reed. I really struggled on all the Borgs to get a good tone below D. He said it was my playing, I asked to try a Selmer Reference 54 he had hanging up, guess what, every note popped out, just like my Yani. I went there ready to buy, and walked away with nothing (the reference was out of my price range) There is a strong possibility that the horns were not set up correctly, or they just did not suit me.

Now I have a Reference, I can hear tonal difference between my Yani 901, but they are at two different ends of the price spectrum. I own a Cannonball Stone Series sop, and have spent hours playing the allbright tenor, I would say if you are expecting a significant change in tone you might be disappointed. You may need to put a lot more air into the horn too.

Having said that, nothing wrong with wanting the same instrument that your hero plays. As the proud ex-owner of a Ibanez George Benson guitar, I can understand how inspiring that can be. I still miss it (ahh guitars I have had........)

That was very interesting Matthew; although I am not half the player you are, I had a very similar experience at that shop (as you may have read in Pete's forum!) ...... couldn't get any real sound out of the 'Borjanis' (as he insists on calling 'em), but did best with a 901 and a 54!

It may be hard to believe, but his response to my mentioning I had a Lamberson was "Never heard of 'em" .....what a pompous (and smelly) P***k :(

[crazydaisydoo]

That was very interesting Matthew; although I am not half the player you are, I had a very similar experience at that shop (as you may have read in Pete's forum!) ...... couldn't get any real sound out of the 'Borjanis' (as he insists on calling 'em), but did best with a 901 and a 54!

It may be hard to believe, but his response to my mentioning I had a Lamberson was "Never heard of 'em" .....what a pompous (and smelly) P***k :(

Oh yes, I forgot about the pronounciation thing.... Jeez that guy.... I thought it was just me. He told my 901 was a beginners horn, hence easy to play. The whole place is a tiny dive. I rang him two weeks ago on the off chance that his ref was still for sale, and he said that it was only ever on display to test the Borgs out against. He tried to sell me a jubilee over the phone and I reminded him that I could not get on with them, and he made some snide comment about them being good enough for countless pro's

I spent my money elsewhere and am now the proud owner of a ref36....

[Dr G]

If the Ref 36 works for you, a well-set up Jubilee will blow just as easily - if not easier - in the low end. Similarly for my previous Jubilee, an early production example, #409J. Sorry that you had such a bad experience. I just got a Francois Louis T350SP and find plenty of meat in the sound from one end of the horn through the other. The horn also digs my Lamberson L8, Fmaj7 7, and Barone Jazz 8. In short, it is very mouthpiece friendly - at least in the designs with moderately large chambers.

[crazydaisydoo]

If the Ref 36 works for you, a well-set up Jubilee will blow just as easily - if not easier - in the low end. Similarly for my previous Jubilee, an early production example, #409J. Sorry that you had such a bad experience. I just got a Francois Louis T350SP and find plenty of meat in the sound from one end of the horn through the other. The horn also digs my Lamberson L8, Fmaj7 7, and Barone Jazz 8. In short, it is very mouthpiece friendly - at least in the designs with moderately large chambers.

The horns are great, I have no doubt, when set up properly. This particular dealer I suspect, did not do anything to them apart from open the case. You can tell a lot about the way people treat their stock by the way they treat their customers, shop and personal hygiene. I would say this guy could not care less. On the way home I was thinking it must be some kind of vanity business for him, because I cannot see him selling a single borgani. When I said that I was looking only for a Selmer reference he told me to come in the shop and try out some Chinese horns he has just had in because they "blow selmers away" for a tenth of the price.

[ilikejam]

If you buy a Borg you will probably want to try a number of pieces to find what clicks,it seems a little odd to find a mouthpiece on one horn and then hope to switch to a horn you haven't played.I have a Borg and like it,I have a number of pieces with low and medium baffles that work well.
Now for the rambling association,I heard Lovanoe interviewed on radio yesterday,he was talking about how people get totally different sounds out of the same equipment...piano players Bill Evans,McCoy on the same instrument,totally different sound,he made his point with a long list.There is so much more to a persons sound than equipment,we all know that right...

[Blowhard2]

I spent a disappointing day last year trying out 7 or 8 of these at the UK dealer (not a nice experience by the way) I could get a nice fat bottom end with a 7* Link and a 3 reed. I really struggled on all the Borgs to get a good tone below D. He said it was my playing, I asked to try a Selmer Reference 54 he had hanging up, guess what, every note popped out, just like my Yani. I went there ready to buy, and walked away with nothing (the reference was out of my price range) There is a strong possibility that the horns were not set up correctly, or they just did not suit me.



I had a similar experience with the company your mention ( In UK, I am sure we all know which it is) - I cannot see anyone buying from this outlet , most unhelpful, "take it or leave it" attitude, and not interested in "deals" on listed prices !.

I played the range of Borgani Tenors when they first appeared on sale in UK, waited for 5 yrs until a good secondhand one came up in the US, and bought it - never looked back ( so far!)

Mine blows evenly and evenly , with a constant tone, with my RPC ( and other MP's) from top to bottom - it's my lmitations which limit the sound - not the horn or mouthpiece!.
Good luck

Blowhard2

blowhard2

[josephmd]

I recently bought a Borgani tenor on ebay. I'm new to the tenor and had problems with the low end UNTIL I had it set up by Randy Jones. Probably an experienced tenor player could blow through the leaks but I couldn't. Now, I'm loving it. My alto (also a Borgani) is being neglected.

I suspect the horns you tried were not well set up given your overall experience.

My experience switching from alto to tenor also supports the advice about lots of air support (and a looser embochure). Once I made the adjustments I was very pleased with the sound of the horn. There's no substitute for shedding.

[Dr G]

If you buy a Borg you will probably want to try a number of pieces to find what clicks,it seems a little odd to find a mouthpiece on one horn and then hope to switch to a horn you haven't played.

You're right. You should order the best looking mouthpiece in the catalog and then go looking for the horn that works best with it. :twisted: ;)

On the other hand, if the Jubilee is similar to your previous horn, mine was a Ref 36, most mouthpieces that I had worked well on both instruments. Two of my favorites on the Ref were a Lamberson J8 and L8, with the J8 being my main player. After several years with the Jubilee, I've settled down with the L8 and sold the J8. It is likely that it is a reflection of my evolving tastes rather than the difference between the two horns.

[ManEast]

I suspect Joe's Francois Louis wood mouthpiece (large tip opening, cavernous chamber) might have something to do with it - but that won't be the end of the story. Joe's sound hs evolved over his lifetime. To think that you'll just jump on it with a Borg' and a JJ is a little simplistic.

FWIW, I play a Borgani Jubilee and would suggest a mouthpiece more like a Lamberson J8 for "that" sound. Of course, when I was using a J8, I sounded nothing like Lovano - or any other Joe. ;)

Yeah, I know also about his expensive custom Francois Louis mouthpiece.

"I play a Francois Louis wooden mouthpiece which uses their ligature (which holds the reed). The mouthpiece itself is made from Granidillo wood, which is a hard African wood. I've been use these on my tenors since 1985 and on soprano starting back in 1982. Handmade, these mouthpieces are simliar to the Otto Link 10 Star mouthpiece which many musicians have used" (Joe Lovano http://www.joelovano.com/resources.php#gear)

I'm not angry with you or insulting your intelligence or anything Dr. G. If it feels like I am, then I apologize ahead of time. But I know the concept of everyone playing different and sounding different on the same horns and setups. It is something I have taken into consideration all of the factors and I would NEVER buy a horn simply because a professional player endorses it, even the great Joe Lovano. I have chosen to take look at Borgani because I like the concept of the sound and what it did for Joe Lovano.

Just incase nobody knows, when Orfeo Borgani and Joe Lovano met at one of Joe's concerts, Orfeo asked if Joe if he could play on the Borgani tenor Orfeo had and Lovano gratefully obliged. If anybody ever heard that concert, they would all agree that there was something different about Lovano's sound, it was original, special. Also as the years have gone by, Joe's sound has gotten better and better, each concert never sounding the same.

So yes, I know that I will never be able to sound exactly like Joe Lovano. Quite frankly, I believe nobody will ever be able to emulate Joe's sound. But I think I can improve my sound and create a new "palatte of colors," open up new doors and approaches to music. I thank you for mentioning the fact he has had years of practice and has an exceptional mouthpiece. I don't want to sound exactly like Joe Lovano, but I want to get a dark, round sound like he does and adapt it to make the sound my own.

Hi Lovano1239
I know just what you saying bud. Please take look at the Ed Pillinger.
I Know Ed's work very well ......All of his M.P's blow very well, and i mean all !
You know the size you need...so if i were you i would go for Ed's New York Tenor Model. Big Fat Lush but with a solid push..or punch to it when you need it .
Totaly spot on for your borgani.

Yours
ManEast

P.S Yes i do have a Borgani Tenor.