Bis key equivalent on flute and clarinet

[tubbycub]

Just wondering if its bad habit to do the following for the Bb (Eb) note:

- using the Runyon Bis key for clarinet

- pressing the third tone hole while fingering the B key using the left index finger on the flute

Though, I have checked that these 'alternate' fingerings are pretty much in tune. Has anyone used these fingerings before?

[John Robinson]

All the time on flute - seems perfectly legit based on context.
Never on clarinet with or without Santy's mod.

[Gordon (NZ)]

Just wondering if its bad habit to do the following for the Bb (Eb) note....pressing the third tone hole while fingering the B key using the left index finger on the flute.....
The standard fingering for Bb on flute is thumb, both first fingers, and eb key.

An alternative for very fast music which are not complicated by playing B, some players use thumb Bb.

The auxiliary key above the F key is really used only for some tremolos.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are talking about a fingering where the left first finger presses TWO keys - its normal key, plus the next key down.

I have never heard of any flute player doing that, in spite of it being in tune. It would be far too difficult to use this and go flutently to and from C. If you ever want to be fluent on flute, just get used to perfect coordination with the standard 1-1 fingering. It is vital!

[tubbycub]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are talking about a fingering where the left first finger presses TWO keys - its normal key, plus the next key down.

I have never heard of any flute player doing that, in spite of it being in tune. It would be far too difficult to use this and go flutently to and from C. If you ever want to be fluent on flute, just get used to perfect coordination with the standard 1-1 fingering. It is vital!


Yes Gordon, you were correct. I guess it will still be taboo to use this fingering position on the flute even when I can slide my finger fast enough to hit the C. Probably due to long term bad habit of over-using the Bis key on the sax :(

[Gordon (NZ)]

In my biew it is not an appropriate substitute for 1-1 unless you are fast enough for a valid B-Bb trill.

The synchronization of 1-1 needs all the practice it can get, not avoidance, because it is vital for other fingerings, such as between first octave B & second octave D, and especially between third octave D-F & F#-A etc.

I once met a self taught guy who never realised the 1-1 fingering for Bb; he trilled B-Bb fast on the thumb keys!!

[saxmangeoff]

I once met a self taught guy who never realised the 1-1 fingering for Bb; he trilled B-Bb fast on the thumb keys!!

That is amazing! Switching between the two thumb fingerings quickly is one thing, but trilling? Yikes!

[tubbycub]

I am totally aware of the 1-1 position and tried to use it as much as possible but I personally find it cumbersome to use it at times when there are lots Bb in a piece of music.

What I am particularly concerned with is whether I can legitimately use the 'bis key' as an alternative to the 1-1 and thumb Bb. Speaking of which, I rarely find any sax players who use the 1-1 fingering except when doing trills.

Nevertheless, Gordon's flute lessons certainly benefitted me especially on tone production. :)

[Gordon (NZ)]

"Speaking of which, I rarely find any sax players who use the 1-1 fingering except when doing trills. "

That may be a little to do with how nearby notes are fingered. C to 1-1 Bb on flute is easy, but on sax it is particularly clumsy, because of the different C fingering.

Personally, I became proficient at flute, then clarinet, before playing sax, so I never got used to using the bis Bb.

[tubbycub]

In fact, moving between C and Bb can still be achieved by using the "bis fingering". Just lift off the thumb key, although this will somewhat create a slightly flat C. Not good for sustained notes but its good for running fast passages....at least for me :)

[Gordon (NZ)]

True. On my flute that is a pretty perfect C.

[AMASAX]

'bis' can rarely be used on clarinet, best done by sliding index
finger down a bit to close the next lower pad.
Is not common to need this, but sometimes handy when
playing in flat keys...as an obscure example of this, when
i used to play Bb parts of Nutcracker(i now play bass),
there's one section towards the end where there is a rapid
section playing(above staff) Bb, Ab, Bb, G, then repeat.
is very easy if playing Bb ala 'bis', harder than hell any
other way.

On flute, one can used middle finger to depress the tone cup
right below the 'B' key, which will produce a Bb. This is
essentially what the Bb trill key and 'one & one' fingerings do.
I did come up with an obscure situation where one might
wanna play Bb with the left middle finger, but it's late now,
and i can't recall it offhand(!)...normally, the other Bb's
should be used and be able to bail you out.