Borgani, not a pro horn?

[heathdwatts]

Hi,
I just started taking some sax lessons and my instructor suggested that I should try to get a pro horn because he's never heard of an Italian horn being at a pro level. I've been playing for a while and have just gotten a recording contract with a small improvised music label in Europe. I decided to get some instruction on classical technique because I have had no lessons. I have put in a large amount of time on overtones, long tones, altissimo, scales, and multiphonics, but I want to be able to read and articulate better.

I have a silver Borgani Jubilee straight soprano (I think they retail for around $5300). Has anyone else ever encountered someone who suggested that these are not pro horns? I've never played a Selmer or Yamaha, but my Borgani, to my fingers, mouth, and ears sounds and plays much better than my Keilwerth SX90BG.

Are there any classical players using a Borgani? I bought it because of the endorsements by Joe Lovano and Tim Price, and I really like the horn. Now, the seeds of doubt have been planted in my mind. Can anyone give me some perspective about how the Borgani's compare with Selmers and Yamahas?

Thanks,
Heath

[BayviewSax]

Modern Borgs are a pro horn -- your instructor is full of it. Keep the horn, get a new instructor. (and for the record, I don't even *like* the Borg's compared to the VI)

[Ruediger Kramer]

Borgani has never heard of your instructor...


:twisted:

[heathdwatts]

Modern Borgs are a pro horn -- your instructor is full of it. Keep the horn, get a new instructor. (and for the record, I don't even *like* the Borg's compared to the VI)


I've never been able to play a Mark VI; I'd like to sometime. The only reason I bought my Borgani is because I found it used online for $1800. The only Mark VI soprano I've found was about $7000. Do you play a Mark VI soprano? Thanks.

[BayviewSax]

I do not. I don't play enough soprano to justify it (actually, I play an LA Sax... I *really* don't play much soprano). I tried a Borgani silver plated, a Borgani Gold plated, and a 99,xxx VI, side-by-side-by-side (all tenors). The silver plate (pearl silver, I think they call it) was nice, but the gold-plated was lame, but the VI was another world -- not even close. I bought none of them, but I've kicked myself over the VI ever since.

[heathdwatts]

I do not. I don't play enough soprano to justify it (actually, I play an LA Sax... I *really* don't play much soprano). I tried a Borgani silver plated, a Borgani Gold plated, and a 99,xxx VI, side-by-side-by-side (all tenors). The silver plate (pearl silver, I think they call it) was nice, but the gold-plated was lame, but the VI was another world -- not even close. I bought none of them, but I've kicked myself over the VI ever since.

I've heard mixed reviews about Mark VI sopranos; I know the tenors and altos are great. Steve Lacy wasn't a fan of them because he said that had intonation problems compared to the Selmer SA-80.
I wish I had tried the Mark VI I saw, but I was afraid that it would have played well and I didn't have the money for it.

[danarsenault]

The meaning of what is a 'pro' horn has become diffuse in today's market. Someone who should know told me that Joe L. had some trouble with his borg in terms of build quality, but that doesn't necessarily bear on the design. If yours plays well, go with. At this point in your process you should probably be more concerned with learning how to play as well as you can.

[Fred]

OK - you've gotten enough answers to know that your Borgani is a "pro" sax. Let's talk for a second about the instructor . . . and rope in some techs as well. Believe it or not, there are some really great instructors out there that were raised in a microcosm with very little exposure to what existed outside their world. To dismiss every teacher that is not familiar with Borgani would be as incorrect as your teacher was.

The same principle applies for techs - many great techs are a product of the environment in which they were trained and now work. Their shop may deal heavily in school trade and Selmers . . . and leave pretty much everything else alone. And they may look at you funny when you bring in a Big B or a Super 20 . . . but that doesn't mean they can't make it play like new!

Bottom line: Don't get rid of an otherwise great teacher or tech just because their education doesn't include your gear. If they're good, stick with them . . . and you may both learn something!

[Hurling Frootmig]

Fred raises some very valid points.

Take it all with a grain of salt. I'm sure your instructor hasn't head of Rampone & Cazzani either but the R1 and R1 jazz series horns are pro horns.

[heathdwatts]

OK - you've gotten enough answers to know that your Borgani is a "pro" sax. Let's talk for a second about the instructor . . . and rope in some techs as well. Believe it or not, there are some really great instructors out there that were raised in a microcosm with very little exposure to what existed outside their world. To dismiss every teacher that is not familiar with Borgani would be as incorrect as your teacher was.

The same principle applies for techs - many great techs are a product of the environment in which they were trained and now work. Their shop may deal heavily in school trade and Selmers . . . and leave pretty much everything else alone. And they may look at you funny when you bring in a Big B or a Super 20 . . . but that doesn't mean they can't make it play like new!

Bottom line: Don't get rid of an otherwise great teacher or tech just because their education doesn't include your gear. If they're good, stick with them . . . and you may both learn something!

I'm pleased with my instructor. I was just curious about his comments because I've heard mostly praise for Borgani's.

[Sebastian]

and Joe Lovano isn't a pro musician

[J.Max]

Fred raises some very valid points.

Take it all with a grain of salt. I'm sure your instructor hasn't head of Rampone & Cazzani either but the R1 and R1 jazz series horns are pro horns.

So are the Grassi Professional/Model/Prestige 2000 horns...just saying...

[SAXISMYAXE]

A sax instructor (heck, a competent or better saxophonist for that matter)who isn't familiar with Borgani horns, at least in passing, sets up a major red flag in my book.

I agree, time to look at the possibility of going with another instructor. Certainly so if he makes a continued issue with your PRO Borgani now that he has been "informed".

[Dr G]

None of the people that I perform with were previously familiar with Borgani horns. Now they've seen two and heard them. The education process has to start somewhere. It's no red flag to me. I've worked with individuals that have been playing their instrument for 50+ years and don't spend anytime looking at new instruments or hanging out on the web - and, hey, they play very well! One is a retired professor of the saxophone. :shock:

Heck, none of these people knew about the Selmer Reference horns either!

My Borg' was the first of the marque that my tech had seen too. I think we can agree that although some of us are well-informed on "worldly" matters, not everyone shares the same passion. ;) These horns remain in short supply.

How 'bout a poll to see how many people here have actually played a Borgani Jubilee?

:borg:

[selmer]

Joe Lovano
Tim Garland
Art Themen
Bob Berg (curved Borgani Soprano)
Miguel Zenon
Jimmy Greene
Pietro Tonolo
François Carrier .
Ask your instructor if he has heard of any of these players.....they all play a Borgani!!!!!!!!!!

[Dr G]

Some great pros have played L.A. Saxes, Sax Gourmet, Unison, Cannonball, et al, ad nauseum, as well. I don't consider a magazine endorsement or a NAMM demo as sufficient evidence of a horn having pro quality.

Disclaimer: I am not a pro but I do play a Borgani Jubilee.

:borg:

[Fred]

The best sax player that I know personally is in his 60's, and has played nothing but Mk VI's for the last 40+ years. His instructors were Selmer fans, and his students became Selmer fans. He may not know Borgani, but he's a monster player. He taught music for many years at the high school and university level, and has produced lots of playing pros. I wouldn't dis him just because he never looked outside of the Selmer camp.

[BayviewSax]

Oy... another out-of-control thread. My point with the original, 'ditch your instructor' remark had less to do with the Borgs than to do with the arrogance of suggesting that his student had to have a "pro" horn. If you have a horn you're happy with and it suits your needs, why does it matter one fly speck who the hell makes it?

[Dr G]

Oy... another out-of-control thread. My point with the original, 'ditch your instructor' remark had less to do with the Borgs than to do with the arrogance of suggesting that his student had to have a "pro" horn.

Yet that is not what you said in several posts.

If you have a horn you're happy with and it suits your needs, why does it matter one fly speck who the hell makes it?

I think most of us will agree with that - including me.

:borg:

[SAXISMYAXE]

Thom,

I'm the one who said that if the instructor doesn't even have a passing familiarity with the Borgani name (i.e. hasn't even heard of them), and makes a bid deal that the student's horn isn't a MKVI (for example), that would send up some red flags in my mind. Blame me, not yourself.

However, I stand by what I said. I'd have to at least wonder what other common knowledge "gems" might have eluded the tutor's notice over the years, among other issues.

More importantly, once educated and updated about the other Pro horns available, if they insist on their own choice of holy grail make/model before taking the student seriously, I'd say bye bye.

The later statement being the main point of my argument.

[kavala]

My first sax, many years ago was an Italian made Borgani.

And yes, they were crap, cheap horns. However, for me starting out as
a teenager, I thought it was the most wonderful thing I had seen.

Anyway, this subject has come up before and I have been told that the
modern Borgani saxes are completely different horn to those
early models, and in fact are top line 'pro' horns.

Now that is what I have been told. I have no personal experience
to back it up.

[BayviewSax]

Oy... another out-of-control thread. My point with the original, 'ditch your instructor' remark had less to do with the Borgs than to do with the arrogance of suggesting that his student had to have a "pro" horn. If you have a horn you're happy with and it suits your needs, why does it matter one fly speck who the hell makes it?

Yet that is not what you said in several posts.


Actually, Doc, I referenced the teacher only in my initial response. And I think I came close enough to making the point that the arrogance of the instructor was something I found overwhelming.

Mike, thanks for having my back.

[chitownjazz]

Somewhere in this exchange shouldn't the idea of your teacher playing your horn have come up? I can understand he hasn't heard of them, but you are obviously an accomplished player, play well on the horn and like it. Shouldn't that and an open mind be enough to get your teacher to stick the thing in his mouth for a few minutes to find out for himself if it's any good? If you want to know the taste of a pear, you must change the pear by eating it yourself.

[heathdwatts]

Somewhere in this exchange shouldn't the idea of your teacher playing your horn have come up? I can understand he hasn't heard of them, but you are obviously an accomplished player, play well on the horn and like it. Shouldn't that and an open mind be enough to get your teacher to stick the thing in his mouth for a few minutes to find out for himself if it's any good? If you want to know the taste of a pear, you must change the pear by eating it yourself.

No, he hasn't played my horn yet. Maybe I should offer him the opportunity to play it with his own mouthpiece. He seems very germ conscious, but I guess that might come from teaching mostly children and teens.

I have another instructor who has tried my horn and likes it. He plays a Mark VI.

[hgiles]

The only 'pro' horn I know is a Mark VI, well maybe King Super 20s also. In that they earn money (appreciate in value).

For someone to say a Borgani is not up to a professionals standards is just silly. I've seen more than a few horn players killing it on a Bundy or a Yamaha 23.

[Canadiain]

Borgani has never heard of your instructor...


:twisted:
LOL, very well put.

The instructor has rather displayed his ignorance there, and obviously is more interested in looking at the horn than in listening to the player:?

[Tim Price]

Teaching music can be the path to self-fulfillment. Many rewards.

For me, I experience the thrill of sharing thoughts and feelings with others and seeing others learn. Many times I learn more.:)

Likewise- there is an extra dimension of humanness to yourself and others by sharing the power of sound through the teaching of music. As a teacher I feel the _MIND_is the most important instrument. Also helping the student make his weak spots stronger. That means getting the student to do things correct, breathing, air, pitch and solid time. All the STUFF to approach this beautiful instrument.Again to me this is a exciting and satisfying profession as well as a challenging and rewarding journey through life.

Lastly, Good teaching is about substance and treating students as consumers of knowledge. It's about doing your best to keep on top of your field, reading sources, inside and outside of your areas of expertise, and being at the leading edge as often as possible. But knowledge is not confined to scholarly journals. Good teaching is also about bridging the gap between theory and practice. It's about leaving the ivory tower and immersing oneself in the field, talking to, consulting with, and assisting practitioners, and liaisoning with their communities.

Effective teaching is not about being locked into the jive of every alto student needs a NY Meyer or MK6, or every tenor student has to be hip to everything Trane did. Your a role model in a way,a spiritual guide. All students play different instruments and at varying proficiencies.
Teaching is continually reinforced by an overarching vision that transcends-- and is reflected in what is said, but more importantly by what is done.

[Boontigula]

If the instructor is competent and teaches well and if you feel his guidance is beneficial to you, take all he has to offer as a player/teacher in terms of technique/performance and forget the rest.
Also, have you let him play the Borg?

[bjornblomberg]

Apparently Jan Garbarek plays (played?) a Borgani curved soprano. He has a wonderful soprano tone.

[themacintrasher]

None of the people that I perform with were previously familiar with Borgani horns. Now they've seen two and heard them. The education process has to start somewhere. It's no red flag to me. I've worked with individuals that have been playing their instrument for 50+ years and don't spend anytime looking at new instruments or hanging out on the web - and, hey, they play very well! One is a retired professor of the saxophone. :shock:

Heck, none of these people knew about the Selmer Reference horns either!

My Borg' was the first of the marque that my tech had seen too. I think we can agree that although some of us are well-informed on "worldly" matters, not everyone shares the same passion. ;) These horns remain in short supply.

How 'bout a poll to see how many people here have actually played a Borgani Jubilee?

:borg:
Whats a Selmer? ;)

[milandro]

There's a lot of bad blood about Italian horns out there, some of it is due to the quality (or should I say, the lack of it! ) of most Italian instruments built after WW II until the '60 when some good horns started been build in Italy, again, to face the stiff competition.

Starting from the '80 through the '90 the Italian musical instruments industry faced its most important crisis and Grassi, Rampone & Cazzani, Borgani and Orsi (at that time the only remaining brass and woodwind companies in Italy) had to shape up to avoid extinction.

Grassi didn't make it. In spite of some very good products (I would say that wouldn't I ? ;) ) they are now pushing instruments made in Taiwan and China under their name.

Borgani and Rampone and Cazzani, decided to go in the direction of making their horns sound different and they both chose a big bore design to be their way ahead into the new millennium.

Orsi is surviving producing mainly special products.


Borgani and Rampone have succeeded to gain market share and credibility, but they are both handmade, small scale operations, producing the old fashioned way , catering for those who want something special.

By all means they have character and also some flaws. If you want perfection buy Yanagisawa, if you want soul....they have one of their own and it ain't a copy of a French or Japanese soul! ;)

[brassnaked]

Amateur players worldwide will be lining up to buy this new Borgani model:
Definitely NOT a professional model horn:?

http://www.borgani.com/135.htm

~$5800 US

[Saxplayer67]

I may have said this elsewhere - maybe even in this thread somewhere! - but a teacher who bemoans the fact that a student's (or fellow player's) instrument isn't a pro model, isn't this make, isn't that make, are full of manure. I did post recently about people who buy a cheap Ebay sax and then come to me for lessons, instead of approaching me first, is a little silly but I won't go on at them about it, you work with what you have (unless it is soon evident that the student is struggling with a sax - which happens with popular models like Yamaha also, in my experience) and if I can adjust/repair things 'on the fly' for them, I will, before saying 'it's no go, we have to go back to the drawing board and your wallet'.

Experienced players can of course get these really cheap instruments to play (they overcome the difficulties spontaneously) and something that will not play at all, no matter what is done to it, is soon evident.

But to reiterate, I have heard stories from many people, who have the type of teacher I alluded to in the beginning of my spiel. Also, I think sometimes - ofttimes maybe - 'pro' model just means overpriced, not a sign of quality etc.

[Tryptykon]

By all means they have character and also some flaws. If you want perfection buy Yanagisawa, if you want soul....they have one of their own and it ain't a copy of a French or Japanese soul! ;)

I've had my Pearl Silver tenor for around 8 years, and recently added
a Yanagisawa Bronze tenor to the lineup.

BOTH are perfect at what they do .

[Tryptykon]

Amateur players worldwide will be lining up to buy this new Borgani model:
Definitely NOT a professional model horn:?

http://www.borgani.com/135.htm

~$5800 US

Tim Price has the alto(130) version of that. 8-)

[milandro]

I've had my Pearl Silver tenor for around 8 years, and recently added
a Yanagisawa Bronze tenor to the lineup.

BOTH are perfect at what they do .

Sure, but some would say that there is a certain clinic, cold, precision and predictibility in Yanagisawa while the Borgani has the character of a well executed instrument but with some individual properties and therefore more variations . In other words you are more likely to find two Yanis the same than you are to find two Italian great and very individual horns equally sounding.

[Tryptykon]

Sure, but some would say that there is a certain clinic precision in Yanagisawa while the Borgani has the character of a well executed instrument but with some individual properties and therefore more variations . In other words you are more likely to find two Yanis the same than you are to find Italian great horns.


By clinic precision what do you mean ?

[milandro]

By clinic precision what do you mean ?

I mean that Yanagisawa makes a great product with a relatively up-scale industrial operation ( all things being relative and Yanagisawa is not Yamaha) compared to Italian made small scale handcrafted production.

When you hold up a Rampone or a Borgani or a Orsi, most of the horn is hand made with clear signs of that. This accounts for a less serial work , therefore a higher amount of variables resulting in each Italian saxophone being highly individual.

[Tim Price]

Tim Price has the alto(130) version of that. 8-)

And, I love it. It is my " pimp " horn. Its a unique sax because its NOT trying to be a Selmer.

A PRO HORN NO QUESTION. But then again, I copped that horn by playing gigs and festivals and rock gigs.

The more the merrier as Gonz sais.
( Jerry Bergonzi guys not Hunter Thompson)

[milandro]

Its a unique sax because its NOT trying to be a Selmer.


exactly as I wrote....."....... if you want soul....they have one of their own and it ain't a copy of a French or Japanese soul!......" :)

[cuthbert]

No, he hasn't played my horn yet. Maybe I should offer him the opportunity to play it with his own mouthpiece. He seems very germ conscious, but I guess that might come from teaching mostly children and teens.

I have another instructor who has tried my horn and likes it. He plays a Mark VI.

Unfortunately, your instructor is another of these narrow minded people who actually created the "Mark VI" mithology: just MArk VI, the rest doesn't exist. Mainly because:

1)They never gave anything else a chance.

2)Coltrane used a Mark VI therefore it's God's Will.

I don't blame him because he didn't know about Borgani, I blame him because if he was a GOOD instructor he should have played the instrument you use and them understood if it was a pro horn or not. This makes the difference.

Anyway, this kind of mentality is very popular, expecially in Italy. You can have a look of what a supposed "jazz professional" wrote about Borgani and Grassi on jazzitalia:

Può dirmi di più sul mio strumento, ovvero un contralto Orsi, (acquistato all'incirca una trentina di anni fa e completamente revisionato) anche per quel che riguarda "l'affinità" dello stesso per un particolare genere di musica?
Dunque, non conosco il modello specifico di cui sei in possesso, ma conosco bene la Orsi e i suoi strumenti.
E' una ditta nella quale lavorano ottimi artigiani, veri artisti nel lavoro di costruire uno strumento, aspetto questo indubbiamente positivo ai fini della creazione di un saxofono di qualità.
Il problema della Orsi però (come anche delle altre ditte italiane, ovvero Borgani e in parte anche Grassi) è che non ha mai avuto una utenza di professionisti e didatti che la aiutassero a sviluppare i propri strumenti, e quindi non ha mai avuto progetti propri e di conseguenza non ha avuto e non ha in produzione strumenti che abbiano un suono originale, o comunque veramente professionale, tant'è che il grosso delle vendite lo effettua con le Bande cittadine, le quali, purtroppo, nella stragrande maggioranza dei casi, non hanno grosse velleità di intonazione e precisione.
La migliore delle ditte italiane ritengo sia la Grassi che recentemente ha sviluppato modelli in grado di competere con i Selmer in quanto a meccanica, timbro e intonazione.
Per venire quindi con più precisione alla tua domanda posso immaginare che il tuo strumento abbia un suono non troppo scuro, (e questo perché avendo trent'anni sicuramente ha la meccanica senza il Fa# acuto, con i piattelli delle note basse sul lato sinistro della campana ed è, in generale, più leggero dei sax moderni) caratteristica questa che lo rende abbastanza
versatile, adatto quindi sia per la classica che per il jazz o il rythm & blues.
D'altronde, però, per quanto detto sopra, probabilmente sarà uno strumento poco preciso in termini di intonazione, cosa questa che lo limita fortemente nell'impiego in musica classica.
Per quel che riguarda la bellezza del suono, difficilmente avrà un timbro professionale però attenzione: il suono, il timbro sono un fatto personale e dipendono da come tu imbocchi, dal tipo di bocchino, dal tipo di ancia!!!!
Quello che ti posso dire è che, per quel che so io, non ci sono stati e non ci sono grandi saxofonisti che usano Orsi.
Solamente Jan Garbarek, (saxofonista norvegese contemporaneo tra i più grandi) sembra, dico sembra, che usi un soprano ricurvo costruito dalla Orsi, ma in quel caso si tratterebbe comunque di uno strumento su commissione e quindi su progetto ben preciso, difficilmente riproponibile a livello commerciale.
In conclusione, al di là del valore affettivo che sicuramente per te avrà, credo che, se veramente sei agli inizi e se lo strumento chiude bene, ci puoi andare avanti tranquillamente per qualche anno, dopo di ché sarai tu stesso a sentire l'esigenza di qualcosa di diverso, sia a livello di meccanica che a livello timbrico e di utilizzo stilistico.
Ma allora avrai anche le idee più chiare.

http://www.jazzitalia.net/Lezioni/Sax/FAQ.asp

Anybody need translation?

[BASS SAXMAN]

I've known two people who don't consider a sax a pro sax unless its a Selmer-Paris. They're truly ignorant.