several mouthpiece issues

[trane in training]

So now that I'm on break and have some free time, I thought I'd bust out the jazz mpc just to have some fun. It's a Meyer 7 medium chamber. Firstly I have to say that I've never really had any help from a private teacher when dealing with my jazz setup. I'd just move use the same reed and lig I was using with my C* and go (at the time a Rovner Dark and Vandoren blue box 3 1/2). Usually it worked fine, with school jazz band and all state Jazz Band and such, but not so much with small combo gigs. When I played it a few days ago with the current reed and lig I'm using (Vendoren blue box 4 and Selmer traditional lig), however, it felt even worse.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is what is the general rule for reeds when moving to a larger tip opening mouthpiece? I've read here that a lot of jazz fellas are playing on 2 1/2 strength reeds, but since I'm comfortable on 4s I think I'd blow out reeds that thin in a few minutes. and I think I'm gonna get some jazz lessons from a grad student next semester, so hopefully said student can help me out as well. I'd still appreciate all advice as I'd prefer to go in being able to show that I can play jazz pretty decently...haha


also, my neck cork is squished too much from my C* so when I play the Meyer, it slides up way too far. I've done paper and a lighter and used cork grease extensively, but is there any way to just avoid it? It's a real pain in the *** having to pull out a lighter ever time I play jazz, and the paper reminds me too much of marching band quick fixes...;)

Thank a lot fellas, I really appreciate the help I get here.

~Ben

[altosaxguy1]

Yes, you need to go down to about a 2 1/2 or a 3 for your jazz mouthpiece.

[trane in training]

ok, I'll definitely get on that. I just figured that since I'm using pretty hard reeds already, a 2 1/2 or 3 would feel like tissue paper

[maestroelite]

It doesn't work like that. You need to match the reed to the tip opening. I play 2-4 strength reeds depending on the horn and setup personally. Most people don't like blue box reeds on more open pieces as they tend to blow stuffy.

[Bossman]

The very, very, very general rule is more open mouthpiece = softer reed.

[Martinman]

There is nothing wrong with using a piece of paper to make a mouthpiece fit on a cork. I know a college professor who does it.

[trane in training]

There is nothing wrong with using a piece of paper to make a mouthpiece fit on a cork. I know a college professor who does it.

yeah, I've known many people who do it, but is there a way of avoiding it all together?

[altosaxguy1]

Get a new neck cork.

[Martinman]

Use two necks.

[seanwilken]

Well i get a lot of good info from SOTW. Paul R Coats in an article on Sax mouthpieces indicate that with largeer tip openings for jazz type mouthpieces a softer reed is usually required. If you go to Saxophones.co.uk and look at all things mouthpiece you will find articles on my first mouthpiece etc. Look at reeds and you will find that a rule of thumb is that a narrow tip opening requires a harder reed, a wider tip opening a softer one. The question is then what is soft and what is hard? Well i think any reed over 3 may be hard. That is my personal opinion. Do not get stuck on the mindset that if you can play 5's you are the man. What sounds good using guidlines from those who know should be followed.
So now that I'm on break and have some free time, I thought I'd bust out the jazz mpc just to have some fun. It's a Meyer 7 medium chamber. Firstly I have to say that I've never really had any help from a private teacher when dealing with my jazz setup. I'd just move use the same reed and lig I was using with my C* and go (at the time a Rovner Dark and Vandoren blue box 3 1/2). Usually it worked fine, with school jazz band and all state Jazz Band and such, but not so much with small combo gigs. When I played it a few days ago with the current reed and lig I'm using (Vendoren blue box 4 and Selmer traditional lig), however, it felt even worse.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is what is the general rule for reeds when moving to a larger tip opening mouthpiece? I've read here that a lot of jazz fellas are playing on 2 1/2 strength reeds, but since I'm comfortable on 4s I think I'd blow out reeds that thin in a few minutes. and I think I'm gonna get some jazz lessons from a grad student next semester, so hopefully said student can help me out as well. I'd still appreciate all advice as I'd prefer to go in being able to show that I can play jazz pretty decently...haha


also, my neck cork is squished too much from my C* so when I play the Meyer, it slides up way too far. I've done paper and a lighter and used cork grease extensively, but is there any way to just avoid it? It's a real pain in the *** having to pull out a lighter ever time I play jazz, and the paper reminds me too much of marching band quick fixes...;)

Thank a lot fellas, I really appreciate the help I get here.

~Ben

[trane in training]

Thanks for the advice everyone!

I actually found out my brother had some 3s laying around, so I popped one on and it made all the difference in the world....the only thing though is the lack of heart in those soft reeds...you can rarely find 4s and 5s with enough heart, and I wouldn't want to be cutting down those few prized good reeds i have...haha. maybe Vandoren will start making all of their reeds with a good amount of heart...or at least I can dream....

I wish I would have heard about the softer reed thing a long time ago...It's nice to finally be able to relax and have fun on my Meyer.

[maestroelite]

All strength reeds of the same brand/cut have the same cut, hard reeds being thicker is a myth. Its (loosely) based on the flexibility of the cane used.

[J.Max]

All strength reeds of the same brand/cut have the same cut, hard reeds being thicker is a myth. Its (loosely) based on the flexibility of the cane used.

I think that the myth is based on one saxophone professor's comments, but they are incorrect. If you go on the Vandoren website, they explain exactly how they sort the reed strengths on one of their videos, and it has nothing to do with more wood in the heart of the reed. If you want a reed with more wood in the heart, try an Alexander or Gonzales.

[Ben Marrow]

Hi, Trane In Training. Alexander Superials have good hearts; I like the DCs.:)

[trane in training]

All strength reeds of the same brand/cut have the same cut, hard reeds being thicker is a myth. Its (loosely) based on the flexibility of the cane used.

I had no idea...I always was told thicker, and I just never gave it a second thought.


I think that the myth is based on one saxophone professor's comments, but they are incorrect. If you go on the Vandoren website, they explain exactly how they sort the reed strengths on one of their videos, and it has nothing to do with more wood in the heart of the reed. If you want a reed with more wood in the heart, try an Alexander or Gonzales.

Regardless of the myth, from my own experiences I have found more heart in 4s and 5s than 3 1/2s and lower, and on the occasion that I get a really good reed, the wood in the heart is considerably more. You can tell by looking at the reed, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks that.

I do admit that said professor has several myths, and as his student I know better than to disagree when I'm improving tremendously. It would seem counter productive for me to go against what he says, whether it is valid or not, simply because he'll find something wrong with it eventually. Do I think that's a good thing? No. However, I have yet to find a saxophonist who I feel plays better so what he's doing must be at least somewhat right. I feel kind of like I'm ranting a bit, but I don't want to come off as a brainwashed student. thank you though for the reed advice, I'll have to pick some up soon...

~Ben

[J.Max]

I have a theory that you get more "good" 4s and 5s because Vandoren produces less of them (and less people use them), and therefore their tolerances are smaller. This has been a personal theory of mine and has absolutely no basis in fact.

And no one thinks you're a brainwashed student...if it gives you a psychological edge, I say go for it! And disagreeing with a professor openly is never a good idea, so you're on track there too.

But seriously, try the Alexander reeds. I think you'll like them.

[Martinman]

Since it is a well known fact that no two cane reeds are the same, would it not be possible for one reed of the same brand and strength to have more heart than another?

[trane in training]

I have a theory that you get more "good" 4s and 5s because Vandoren produces less of them (and less people use them), and therefore their tolerances are smaller. This has been a personal theory of mine and has absolutely no basis in fact.

And no one thinks you're a brainwashed student...if it gives you a psychological edge, I say go for it! And disagreeing with a professor openly is never a good idea, so you're on track there too.

But seriously, try the Alexander reeds. I think you'll like them.

I plan on trying them, but most likely not until over the summer when I have the time away from my professor. I would hate to buy a new box of Alexander reeds, have one minuscule issue in a lesson, and have the rest of my lesson be a lecture on how the moonlight harvest makes Vandoren reeds perfect :D

[J.Max]

Since it is a well known fact that no two cane reeds are the same, would it not be possible for one reed of the same brand and strength to have more heart than another?

Yes, but it doesn't change the strength, which was the point.

[J.Max]

I plan on trying them, but most likely not until over the summer when I have the time away from my professor. I would hate to buy a new box of Alexander reeds, have one minuscule issue in a lesson, and have the rest of my lesson be a lecture on how the moonlight harvest makes Vandoren reeds perfect :D

Good plan. ;)

[stevesklar]

A reed varies by alot of variations.
for example, take a look at the following of various reeds:

[1] hold it up to the light. Does it have thin veins, thick veins, mixture

[2] look at the butt end. are the two edges the same height. Does the middle arch more than others

[3] hold it up to the light again. Does the cut start at the same location, have the same darkness/lighteness areas. (note: the darkness/lightness is a good visual cue, but not *the answer*)

a reed is defined by a couple of zones (for simplicity) a timbre zone and a sound production zone. But if you really get into it there are a multitude of zones that affect how a reed responds and plays.

the timbre zone is basically the thickness of the reed near the tip.

the sound production zones are defined as the sides

here's something strange. I use harder reeds on small tip mpcs. then as it increases I get softer, up until about a D then after an F tip I go harder reeds
so a 3.5/4 for a C*, 2.5 for a D/E and nearly a 5 for a G tip

[Martinman]

Yes, but it doesn't change the strength, which was the point.


Why couldn't it change the strength? Not all Vandoren 4's are exactly alike in hardness, which could be due to the cane being slightly thicker in the heart on an individual basis. Or the reeds being of slightly different cane densities. Or a bunch of other factors. Man, I hate reeds, they are so confusing. I hope I am making sense.