Tenny Perfected STM vs Vintage Florida STM? [Archive]

91saxist

12-18-2007, 09:49 PM

Is this the same idea as the HR Tenney Slant Sigs? Except for the metal Florida STMs?

http://www.saxquest.com/productDetails.asp?productcode=Link7StarSTenor

Is this mouthpiece also a copy of the vintage with the old mold?
Or is it just a normal Metal taken off the assembly line, just tweaked by tenny

If it is (same mold etc), how does it compare to the vintage Florida STMs?

Thanks

whaler

12-18-2007, 10:06 PM

Ol' Mpc Doc

12-18-2007, 10:32 PM

Sounds like the same bull as the "V" Link. I guess "Custom Select" means the other mouthpieces they make aren't as good. The "one size fits all" theory seems kind of strange to me. As with the "V", there is no mention of any "Custom Select" model on their website, which is unusual. http://www.jjbabbitt.com/

Let's put all this to rest if we can! "Hand select" means exactly that and only that. "Custom Select" means I've personally hand-selected the mpcs that I then "customize" as described in Saxquest's (not my own) ad copy. I don't advertise in any way anywhere. Would it be more correct to "label" it as a "Select Custom"?

Any "bull" you bumped into regarding the "V" Link didn't start either with me or with Babbitt and, in any event, the "bull" ended up as a "bum steer" if you get my meaning.

The "one size fits all" is my attempt to keep uninformed players from ordering a Link in a tip size larger than they can realistically handle - and that's a pretty common scenario. The 7* is, by far, the most popular Link tip opening for well developed players and has been for years.

I absolutely will NOT promote my work or products on SOTW but if anyone has sincere questions, just send me a PM. I'm known to be pretty conscientious about making prompt and honest replies.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL

Doc

whaler

12-19-2007, 03:05 AM

Ol' Mpc Doc

12-19-2007, 04:24 AM

Thanks for your explanation. I agree with the fact that some think that big opening means big sound which is wrong, but I'm a "well-developed player" and use a 6* or even a 5*. It seems as though saxcow91 was right when he called it, "just a normal metal taken off the assembly line and tweaked".
I'm sorry, but the scratching of a name, comparison to vintage mouthpieces, and letters stamped on boxes after the fact, seems more like mumbo-jumbo than a product.

If that's your perception and opinion - and that's all it is - why be "sorry" about it? The almost constant demand/back-order situation regarding this product for over four years now indicates there are many others who have an opinion different from your own and are "happy" with theirs. I've always wondered how one packages "mumbo-jumbo" and have several suitable examples in mind. Could you provide us all with an example of your own to illustrate your point? Is it labeled "Chops In A Box"? My products aren't. And, yes, I do offer smaller tip openings on custom orders. If you want to discuss his further with me, let's go the PM route.

Happy Holidays

Sigmund451

12-19-2007, 05:03 AM

Hard to stay out of this one.

It seems that players are more than willing to admitt that the setup of a horn makes a world of difference in how one like model plays compared to another. Why wouldnt this hold true with a mouthpiece. Proper engeneering, attention to detail, and craftsmanship make make a huge difference in response and tone. Im not sorry to say this....any arguement to the contrary exists outside of logic.

Grumps

12-19-2007, 02:28 PM

I absolutely will NOT promote my work or products on SOTW
Refreshing. Hope it lasts.

The almost constant demand/back-order situation regarding this product for over four years now indicates there are many others who have an opinion different from your own and are "happy" with theirs.
Well, so much for that...

sinkdraiN

12-19-2007, 04:54 PM

Defending a product in thread that was clearly a question which Doc addressed is completely different than the constant announcements about new products and/or special offers made by some of the businessmen on this forum. That's the stuff that drives me crazy.

On the otherhand, I enjoy keeping current by hearing about the latest "new thing."

MojoBari

12-19-2007, 04:58 PM

Yes. This forum is better when Doc offers his insights. Even when his non-promotes happen to promote his work. It is impossible to answer questions about your work without it effectively promoting it.

Sebastian

12-19-2007, 05:30 PM

I don't see anybody promoting. Doc is just re-iterating what he has said in the past: he doesn't make any claims about what he does with these pieces or compare them to our favourite collectible pieces of equipment. Saxquest does that. He only mentions that he works on a lot of them to satisfy Saxquest's high demand for them. His only claim is that they are a more than suitable piece of equipment for an experienced player. No more.

I can't play this big either, but I'm guessing there's a reason that 7* is the most popular in the line. It must work best for most people, no?

Grumps

12-19-2007, 05:42 PM

This forum is better when Doc offers his insights.
I agree, but as he's a very opinionated guy with a strong delivery, folks might disagree with him on occasion or point out when such opinions conflict. Then he's not above anybody else who wishes to use the forum to exchange insights.

drakesaxprof

12-19-2007, 07:05 PM

Since none of you were privy to Doc's extremely thorough and informational presentation on the interrelationships between airstream, embouchure, reed, and mouthpiece that he presented this past weekend at Tenor Madness's grand opening, what you may not realize is that his extensive background as a physician, combined with courses in mechanical engineering, background as a race car engine mechanic, and a lifelong love of the saxophone all combine to lend an unusually high degree of credence to his remarks, at least to those of us who recognize substantive information when we hear it. During Jerry Bergonzi's clinic session later that afternoon, he made repeated references to topics addressed by Doc, and made clear that they aligned with his own experiences and perspectives. Doc's "product" is really a service--he uses proven mouthpiece designs, and expertly addresses issues that may arise from manufacturing inconsistencies, via a process of blue-printing them to their intended specifications. And, to those of us who enjoy the fruits of his work in our playing, that service has proven to be an extremely valuable one.

DanPerezSax

12-19-2007, 07:38 PM

Thanks for your explanation. I agree with the fact that some think that big opening means big sound which is wrong, but I'm a "well-developed player" and use a 6* or even a 5*. It seems as though saxcow91 was right when he called it, "just a normal metal taken off the assembly line and tweaked".
I'm sorry, but the scratching of a name, comparison to vintage mouthpieces, and letters stamped on boxes after the fact, seems more like mumbo-jumbo than a product.

I'm no expert on the science of mouthpieces. That being said, I had my tenor piece (NY Link 6) refaced by Adam Niewood last weekend, and it is NOT the same mouthpiece I started out with. It is MUCH easier to blow, I have a consistent altissimo range now, the sound is much fuller, brighter and I can play louder. I have more pitch control and more timbal options, as well.

I stood by and watched him do the five hours of work on the piece, and he showed me the vintage piece he based his work off of. I'm glad he etched his initials into it, and I would never try to tell anyone that it was a regular Link. No mumbo-jumbo, this is a NEW mouthpiece, different from the original, and vastly superior. I assume any experienced mouthpiece refacer will have similar results, and I think it's kind of pointless to try and deny that what they do drastically changes the potential for the pieces they work on.

whaler

12-19-2007, 09:12 PM

sinkdraiN

12-19-2007, 09:26 PM

I once called mouthpiece tweaking ...mumbo jumbo. So I bought 2 of the same mouthpieces and sent one out to be tweaked...no added baffles or anything...just tweaked. And yeah...big difference.

And opinionated or not- when Doc posts its worth it to- at the very least seriously consider his points. Docs expertise on the subject is as top shelf as it gets

Hurling Frootmig

12-19-2007, 09:36 PM

Doc's a great resource.

There's a lot of ways people work on mouthpieces. A lot of people like what Doc does and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to people looking for what he does.

I have a Florida STM and it's a great piece. Nothing quite like it except maybe my Morgan Excalibur 7E. I haven't played Doc's Perfected STM but if you shoot him a PM he'll give you his thoughts.

sinkdraiN

12-19-2007, 09:46 PM

I haven't played Doc's Perfected STM but if you shoot him a PM he'll give you his thoughts.

My link was customized by another artisan on this forum. But I PM'ed Doc Tenney for advice about reed selection for it. I felt awkward since it wasnt Doc's mouthpiece. He wrote a lengthy email back to me about his take on reeds on an STM. Super informative and it ended up being exactly what I needed. But not a word about any of his products...He has no website, no fancy signature with contact info, no profile...I wonder how he even sells one mouthpiece. Ralph was like that too...and had his strong opinions about the subject of mouthpieces.

Mike Cesati

12-19-2007, 10:04 PM

It's not worth it

AdrianMolina

12-19-2007, 11:39 PM

All said, the best Link I've ever played on, and I've played on a lot, is a newer 6* that I use now that appears to have been dropped and the tip has a slight bend. Blueprint that! Here is a little clip of what it sounds like; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0gMfDt0HE

Wow. You sound great. One of the best clips of any SOTW member, Ive ever heard.

Obiviously quite an experienced jazz player.

This has to lend some credence or "gravitas" to his opinion on here, at least to me.

I want to play like you, when I grow up:)

Grumps

12-20-2007, 12:03 AM

...what you may not realize is that his extensive background as a physician, combined with courses in mechanical engineering, background as a race car engine mechanic, and a lifelong love of the saxophone all combine to lend an unusually high degree of credence to his remarks...
Yeah, but folks are still going to disagree with him from time to time. That's how it goes with exchanging opinions; and when doing so, all the qualifications in the world aren't necessarily going to make someone right in all regards. Besides, what good is race car experience when someone doesn't want to play a Link?

...at least to those of us who recognize substantive information when we hear it.
First an appeal to authority and now an appeal to flattery; and there isn't even really an argument. No one questions his authority. Only his written word. Why is that a problem?

stu the sax player

12-20-2007, 12:12 AM

All said, the best Link I've ever played on, and I've played on a lot, is a newer 6* that I use now that appears to have been dropped and the tip has a slight bend. Blueprint that! Here is a little clip of what it sounds like; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN0gMfDt0HE

Whaler you sound great, and although you say that is the best link you have ever played, have you tried a hand finished STM? I too used to think I had the best link a modern 7* then a friend let me try his hand finished 7* still a modern one, all I can say is everything my mouthpiece could do this one could do better + some.

Now I play JJ DV pieces, which I believe are hand finished.

stefane

drakesaxprof

12-20-2007, 12:25 AM

Yeah, but folks are still going to disagree with him from time to time.
Okay, fair enough. Exactly which of Docs's remarks--in this particular thread--that you disagree with?

That's how it goes with exchanging opinions; and when doing so, all the qualifications in the world aren't necessarily going to make someone right in all regards.
Sure, but there are opinions...and then there are opinions. When I need medical attention, I don't go to an online forum and see what the consensus of the netizens might be. Rather, I seek out an authority on the subject, perhaps several, and--while you snicker at the notion of the appeal to authority--I weigh their input against the backdrop of their qualifications, experience, and yes, authority.

Besides, what good is race car experience when someone doesn't want to play a Link?
Nobody is asking you--or anyone else--to play a Link. Who cares? This thread arose in response to some very specific inquiries by a player who already has an interest in Links. Doc stepped in for clarification, as is his right. Further, he is in a unique position to provide clarity on the matter.

First an appeal to authority and now an appeal to flattery; and there isn't even really an argument. No one questions his authority. Only his written word. Why is that a problem?
Again, I'm not clear on which written words you, or anyone else in the context of this particular thread, questions. Sure, anyone can disagree with anybody else, but it seems that here you have chosen--and by no means for the first time--to fabricate some kind of argument where none exists. Hey, my wife's an attorney too, but she doesn't gain amusement from arguing with folks online--it's too tiring to deal with it at work all day!

whaler

12-20-2007, 01:12 AM

Whaler you sound great, and although you say that is the best link you have ever played, have you tried a hand finished STM? I too used to think I had the best link a modern 7* then a friend let me try his hand finished 7* still a modern one, all I can say is everything my mouthpiece could do this one could do better + some.

Now I play JJ DV pieces, which I believe are hand finished.

stefane
Like everyone else here, I've tried just about anything I could get hold of, including "hand-finished" Links by Jey Clark, Ackerman, Bob Carpenter, and one done by Frank Wells. There might be such a thing as "too perfect" meaning that it might lose some of the "nuances" that make it have the Link thing. I have trouble playing high-baffled mouthpieces for the same reason; it seems like the sound is coming too much from the mouthpiece and nothing from the horn. These are my opinions. I'm no expert, I'm just want something that is comfortable and lets my sound come out.

sinkdraiN

12-20-2007, 01:25 AM

Yeah, but folks are still going to disagree with him from time to time.

What exactly about Doc's post are you disagreeing with?

Ol' Mpc Doc

12-20-2007, 01:57 AM

I agree, but as he's a very opinionated guy with a strong delivery, folks might disagree with him on occasion or point out when such opinions conflict. Then he's not above anybody else who wishes to use the forum to exchange insights.

Grumps, there's a significant difference between "opinions" and "insights".
Your post seems to equate them. You KNOW better than that! That's my "opinion" but I think I may also have some "insight" into the possible intent of your apparent syntactical error. IMO, the original topic of this thread has been adequately addressed and, if not, let's get back to it and quit this petty feuding. Don't make me put on my rubber gloves to see what's gone wrong here!

Grumps

12-20-2007, 02:57 AM

Okay, fair enough. Exactly which of Docs's remarks--in this particular thread--that you disagree with?
That he wasn't promoting himself on SOTW.

Sure, anyone can disagree with anybody else, but it seems that here you have chosen--and by no means for the first time--to fabricate some kind of argument where none exists.
You're the one arguing with me.

saxphil

12-20-2007, 03:29 AM

I like strong opinions and there are plenty 'nuff here on this thread.
Makes for a very enjoyable read.Heat and civility.
Why should self promotion upset anyone, especially if a good product is offered?
Are we all not selling ourselves in our opinions broadcasted on this forum?

SuperDave

12-20-2007, 01:01 PM

Wow! I was just looking at the difference in the number of posts from Grumps and Doc....same join date...but look at the great variance in quantity....:|

There may be lots of nuggets of wisdom in all those but I would rather sift through 300 than 6000 posts, to find them!!!:shock:

Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,171 VS

Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 347

:)

mlscnr

12-20-2007, 01:21 PM

I agree, but as he's a very opinionated guy with a strong delivery, folks might disagree with him on occasion or point out when such opinions conflict.
But the point here is that some of us disagree with you that he posted anything contradictory. His statement about demand was in direct response to the mumbo/jumbo thing. It was not promotion, it was his attempt to put things into perspective.

I'm with Doc on this one.

Wow! I was just looking at the difference in the number of posts from Grumps and Doc....same join date...but look at the great variance in quantity....:|
While Grumps and Doc can both be, well, grumpy - Grumps is a lawyer, so he gets paid by the word. ;)

SuperDave

12-20-2007, 01:27 PM

While Grumps and Doc can both be, well, grumpy - Grumps is a lawyer, so he gets paid by the word. ;)[/QUOTE]

Does he get paid per word?? :D Man, I am in the wrong field, I'd be freakin' rich!!!!

What was the name of that lawyerer character on SNL played bt Martin Short...
the smoking contrarian lawyer...

drakesaxprof

12-20-2007, 02:05 PM

What was the name of that lawyerer character on SNL played bt Martin Short...
the smoking contrarian lawyer...
Personally, I preferred Phil Hartman's Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.

Hurling Frootmig

12-20-2007, 02:21 PM

I suppose I'll wade in here.

By posting in a thread I suppose someone is technically promoting themselves. It could be indirectly their craft, their business, the website, their opinions. It's just the nature of posting on a saxophone forum or any other public forum. My opinion is that Doc is very responsible in how he presents himself. There's no link to a website, no link to an online store, no constant stream of posts announcing a new product, and no constant stream of posts for mouthpieces for sale. I just don't see the argument.

whaler

12-20-2007, 02:35 PM

I for one am glad he responded to my post. Obviously he and others that have used his products are in agreement with his work.
He himself said that his work is not "chops in a box". He even offered to discuss making a 6*version for me if I PMed him. I might give it a shot, if he's not too pissed at me.

Grumps

12-20-2007, 03:30 PM

Personally, I preferred Phil Hartman's Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.
One of my all time favorites. Look folks, rather than envisioning a nasty little man when reading my posts, just try to think of someone chiding a bit in a more playful manner. I've picked on inconsistencies before and Doc is generally a good sport about it. Why can't the rest of you be?

And for the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with freely promoting one's business here as long as it's done within the rules. Heck, if I had something to sell, I'd be doing it. Just that post struck me as funny. That's all... really.

SuperDave

12-20-2007, 04:13 PM

jamiejazz

12-20-2007, 04:29 PM

I enjoy Doc's posts. I bought a tenney Meyer recently and he knows his stuff. We all chat here way too much, and why shouldn't he.

What I find on this website is that people don't consider the randomness of equipment enough. Doc's pieces are nice, but I bet they're all different-it's not quite a science-it's bloody messy and involves good old fashioned analogue luck. Doc might give you a bit more luck.

I prefer going to someone local for refacing, a friend you trust can be very reassuring-there's probably as much chance involved as with a more established refacer anyway. You can experiment a lot more in that context too.

Jamie

MojoBari

12-20-2007, 07:19 PM

One of my all time favorites. Look folks, rather than envisioning a nasty little man when reading my posts, just try to think of someone chiding a bit in a more playful manner. I've picked on inconsistencies before and Doc is generally a good sport about it. Why can't the rest of you be?

And for the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with freely promoting one's business here as long as it's done within the rules. Heck, if I had something to sell, I'd be doing it. Just that post struck me as funny. That's all... really.Now there is a good post. It shows how ones intent may be misinterpreted in this medium. I think it is true that your "Grumps" name may bias peoples opinion.

Ol' Mpc Doc

12-20-2007, 09:45 PM

Now there is a good post. It shows how ones intent may be misinterpreted in this medium. I think it is true that your "Grumps" name may bias peoples opinion.

Or not......IMO, there's a pretty consistent pattern evident in many of his 6000+ posts of something more than just "chiding a bit in a playful manner..." I don't find "caustic sniping" either useful or amusing but it certainly is "informative" about the source. I have no further comment on this topic.

retread

12-20-2007, 10:40 PM

One of my all time favorites. Look folks, rather than envisioning a nasty little man when reading my posts, just try to think of someone chiding a bit in a more playful manner.
Grumps, I don't envision a nasty little man when I read your posts. I envision a lawyer. But there is hope. With counseling and effort, even a lawyer can advance to nasty little man.

12-20-2007, 11:01 PM

Hey whaler, great playing! Every time I hear a good player on a Link I start thinking, man I should try one....it definitely has a distinctive sound which I know has to come from the player, but that "link thing" is certainly a factor and it's a tone quality I really like.

Grumps

12-21-2007, 12:05 AM

I have no further comment on this topic.
Well, so much for the good sport thing as well.

I've met Mojo though, so he might be able to vouch for the twinkle in my eye. And we've disagreed quite often on this site. One of these days though, I'll have to start using more smiley faces. That, or they'll add Caustic Sniper to my moniker...

Augman

12-21-2007, 03:58 PM

whats wrong with promoting? I like to hear about new stuff. Its not like these craftsman are huge corporations.

carr

12-21-2007, 04:02 PM

Since none of you were privy to Doc's extremely thorough and informational presentation on the interrelationships between airstream, embouchure, reed, and mouthpiece that he presented this past weekend at Tenor Madness's grand opening,

I would LOVE to hear what Doc has to say about the interrelationships between airstream, embouchure, reed, and mouthpiece! I guess I'll have to settle for off-topic finger-pointing instead.

Hope everyone has a great holiday!

Augman

12-21-2007, 04:09 PM

I would LOVE to hear what Doc has to say about the interrelationships between airstream, embouchure, reed, and mouthpiece! I guess I'll have to settle for off-topic finger-pointing instead.

Hope everyone has a great holiday!

I would be more interested in that as well

MojoBari

12-21-2007, 05:37 PM

...I've met Mojo though, so he might be able to vouch for the twinkle in my eye...Well, I can vouch that Grumps is not little...;)

Sigmund451

12-22-2007, 12:33 AM

I agree. Lets elect Doc to write a thread about airstream et al. Im sure he has a wealth of information that would enrich the forum.

...of course I suppose someone would accuse him of self promoting!

Actually, Im serious. There have been too many people who have come and gone who have a vast pool of knowledge that could benefit the community.

Ralph Morgan comes to mind. So much information..possibly lost. :(

Comeon Doc...

stevesklar

12-22-2007, 01:44 AM

back to a question about the Tenney mpc, the last one being .. ooh .. like the first post ?!?!

the saxquest ad does not show the rails and tip. Is the mpc re-plated or are the tip and rails bare metal ?

Also, anyone know why it comes with a Selmer lig and cap instead of a link lig & cap ?

AND also (going back to the questions in the first post) - has anyone play tested one against a vintage Link, semi-modern etc Link -- tonal qualities, playing qualities (which we assume are fantastic)

Sigmund451

12-22-2007, 03:21 AM

There are better ligs than those that come with a Link. New ones work but they are pretty flimsy and dont really hold tight. The general consensus is that a firm hold is correlated with increased response and clarity. The selmer Lig has a reputation of working well on Links.

I dont think Doc replates them.

As for a comparison...I cant help you.

I can say that a modern stock link compared to one that is faced properly is very different. A proper facing and table makes a big difference. Its not that perfection is always a necessity. Im not obsessive compulsive. Ive played a number of pieces that dont have perfect facings but play well. The problem is that so many production mouthpieces are SO FAR off that it impacts response as well as tone. Yes, thats sad.

I would also throw in a comment that not all vintage links are worth the money guys throw at them. Some of them are door stops too. They do, however, have different chambers and faced properly they will sound different than a modern Link with an equally good facing.

...is it worth the difference to get a vintage Link? Personally, I say no. Others will swear by them. Its all a matter of taste and opinion. Just get a piece that is made right and play it.

mlscnr

12-27-2007, 01:26 PM

So did we ever decide between the two mouthpieces?

Do we ever? :twisted:

Grumps

12-27-2007, 02:07 PM

Actually, there's an interesting issue in here in regard to whether or not the 5-7* tip opening is the ideal range for Link STM's. I myself played on medium tip openings for decades until about five years ago when I started trying other mouthpieces and realized the more open tipped models really did it for me. With RPC's I'm now at .090" for alto, .134" for tenor and .120 for bari and I play a J Super Session on soprano. Now I did have a Florida Link that was a 5 and it was an excellent mouthpiece. But as I was gravitating to more open mouthpieces, I just felt the 5 was a bit choked for me. Thing is, the more open Links (9 and above) just didn't have that same magic, though I was comfortable with the tip opening. With all the variables concerning how we blow and how we're built, it's tough to come up with any set rules for mouthpieces as far as preferences go, but is there something in the Link design that fails with larger tip openings?

retread

12-27-2007, 03:11 PM

Hasn't Phil Barone posted about the relationship between baffle height and tip openings?

drakesaxprof

12-27-2007, 03:54 PM

Hasn't Phil Barone posted about the relationship between baffle height and tip openings?
Yes, he has a couple of lengthy and informative posts here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=176813&postcount=18) and here (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=177107&postcount=50).

mlscnr

12-27-2007, 05:25 PM

Fred

12-27-2007, 06:12 PM

A question out of ignorance here - please don't shoot!

Is it possible that some have developed a love for large tip pieces for the sound volume they can get out of it rather than for pure sound and enjoyment of playing? Said another way, if your playing venue demands that you put out a ton of sound, couldn't that cause players to move to larger pieces out of necessity?

kyotosessions

12-27-2007, 07:42 PM

I have no further comment on this topic.

...and then he was gone.

kyotosessions

12-27-2007, 07:48 PM

I have been told by an opinionated fellow that not all opinions can be valued because not all opinions are well informed. With that - I have no further comment on this subject.

dzve

12-27-2007, 08:42 PM

Grumps

12-27-2007, 11:42 PM

I dunno about that theory. A lot of great tenor players - past and present - played very open Links.
That hadn't been worked on? But as I said, with all the variables, it would be hard to imagine an ideal facing for everyone. But Phil and others (and I think Doc... though I'd hate to misinterpret him) have said before that the Link design seems to work at its peak potential around the 7* tip opening. I just wanted to know if there was any particular objective reason why they feel this to be.

mlscnr

12-27-2007, 11:49 PM

That hadn't been worked on? But as I said, with all the variables, it would be hard to imagine an ideal facing for everyone. But Phil and others (and I think Doc... though I'd hate to misinterpret him) have said before that the Link design seems to work at its peak potential around the 7* tip opening. I just wanted to know if there was any particular objective reason why they feel this to be.
Oh, sorry...I missed that distinction about them having been worked on.

I've read that the 7* is supposed to be the 'ideal' opening, too. I have nothing to support this other than playing experience and a couple of books, but it probably has to do with where the tip of the mpc sits in relatation to the neck opening, and the relationship of the angles of the baffle and the reed. These factors would contribute to the efficiency of the sound waves moving from the tip to the neck opening. It's all in Ferron's book.

Grumps

12-28-2007, 12:03 AM

Well, since the petty feuding is over, maybe Doc'll come back and address it. I mean... we're back on topic, right?

kyotosessions

12-28-2007, 04:49 AM

Jon van wie once told me that having a baffle(raising the floore of the piece) made the larger tip openings easier to play and somehow was allowing the player to compensate for the larger opening,I'm not sure if I have described it well. Any opinions?

It's interesting how open Jon was about giving 'trade secrets'. I asked him lots of questions about refacing, baffles, chambers etc., and he was always willing to tell me exactly what he did. It seems that the guys who truly are great at what they do are the most open to giving you what they know.

stevesklar

12-28-2007, 04:55 AM

It's interesting how open Jon was about giving 'trade secrets'. I asked him lots of questions about refacing, baffles, chambers etc., and he was always willing to tell me exactly what he did. It seems that the guys who truly are great at what they do are the most open to giving you what they know.
there's a big difference in knowing what to do and accomplishing just that. I understand how to fix certain things on cars but i will be the first to tell you not to hand me a wrench to fix your car. :D

Sigmund451

12-28-2007, 05:03 AM

kyotosessions

12-28-2007, 05:30 AM

Both fine points I agree.

When I first got in contact with Jon it was pre-internet. I found him through word of mouth. Now it's easy to find the information you want on the internet, but before it seemed like getting good information on mouthpieces was next to impossible if you weren't already in the know.

When I first got back a piece from Jon it was a pretty incredible experience. He turned a dog into a singing piece! It was like finding gold at the end of the rainbow. I guess now with everyone advertising their wares, and so much is on offer, this is a ho-hum experience.

Sigmund451

12-28-2007, 05:36 AM

I dont find it a Ho-hum experience...but then I like reworking mouthpieces. Its rewarding and has a magical quality to it.

My primary point is to beware of smoke and mirrors...the additional access to information is now avaliable and can help to educate consumers to not have money magically disappear from their wallets.

kyotosessions

12-28-2007, 05:51 AM

These are not "trade secrets". They are basic structural issues in mouthpiece design and modification. There are volumes of information to be found on every topic mentioned if one is willing to look. Then of course comes execution...

Anyone playing-hocus pocus with your mouthpiece should not be trusted to work on it.

...either that or they have a substantial personality disorder whereupon they should be trusted even less

Eh? Volumes of information, scientific principles, no hocus pocus but when you work on a piece it has "magical quality". Great.

Anyways, Jon was sharing information with me that wasn't just 'scientific' it was his 'trade secrets' - or rather his experience. He didn't have to share his experience, insights, whatever else, he just did. Jon did say that working on pieces was magical too. However, I'm sure it was based on a lot of principles that I can find on the information highway. Thanks. Anyways, top of his game, beautiful guy, blah, blah, blah.

Sigmund451

12-29-2007, 07:30 AM

I was tired...I knew someone clever would catch that contradiction.

...Id try to explain myself but it would just probably sound even dumber in the end.

8-)

dzve

12-29-2007, 06:27 PM

Since jon died I've only had 2 metal links refaced by brian powell and they are really great!!(they were unplayable) Jon could really make pieces sing, I love his pieces for that. I've had some pieces done by miles faherty and he made a hollywood dukoff play beautifully as well. One of the things I like about the older links is the shape of the beak,its wider than the new links which seem narrow,quite a different shape.